origin of people of Scotland and northeast Ireland

[how yes no 2]

Interesting. Did you know that Spencer Wells of the National Geographic Project sees 'I1b' [old name for I2a2] as linked to the Celtic migrations?

No, but that makes sense...

because when I look at family tree dna, there are only two samples of I2a* - one matches exactly area of Adriatic Veneti and the other matches exactly the area of Celtic Veneti in Britanny...
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

we also have Scordisci as previous Celtic speaking inhabitants of Serbia... but there is close to 50% of haplogroup I (38.5 % of I2a2, 7.8% of I1, and 1.67% of I2b1) and almost no R1b (only 4.5%) in Serbia, and Scordisci do fit very well into pattern of haplogroup I tribal names (Swedes, Suebi, Serbs, Sarbans, Sardinians...) while the area was not depopulated (since it preserved 17.3% of E-V13), so it never was high in R1b and Celtic Scordisci were likely only marginally R1b

also, 300 BC in Celtic or partially Celtic area of Iberia, next to Caladuni we find tribe Seurbi... from Caladuni come Scotish Caledonii as preserved in their legend of origin... btw. ending on -din, -dun, -tin is typical for Celts, it had meaning fortress.. and indeed while Seurbi are next to sea side, thus close to point of entering Iberia, Caladuni were deeper into mainland - they had a role of being fortress protecting other settlements...

in Serbia exist somewhat bizarre saying "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you" which may indicate that proto-IE was initially spread by I2a, which is idea that makes some sense as various I2a branches we find in different areas of Europe, while R1b and R1a are mostly constrained to west / east Europe respectively...

 

[Yorkie]

No, but that makes sense...

because when I look at family tree dna, there are only two samples of I2a* - one matches exactly area of Adriatic Veneti and the other matches exactly the area of Celtic Veneti in Britanny...

we also have Scordisci as previous Celtic speaking inhabitants of Serbia... but there is close to 50% of haplogroup I (38.5 % of I2a2, 7.8% of I1, and 1.67% of I2b1) and almost no R1b (only 4.5%) in Serbia, and Scordisci do fit very well into pattern of haplogroup I tribal names (Swedes, Suebi, Serbs, Sarbans, Sardinians...) while the area was not depopulated (since it preserved 17.3% of E-V13), so it never was high in R1b and Celtic Scordisci were likely only marginally R1b

also, 300 BC in Celtic or partially Celtic area of Iberia, next to Caladuni we find tribe Seurbi... from Caladuni come Scotish Caledonii as preserved in their legend of origin... btw. ending on -din, -dun, -tin is typical for Celts, it had meaning fortress.. and indeed while Seurbi are next to sea side, thus close to point of entering Iberia, Caladuni were deeper into mainland - they had a role of being fortress protecting other settlements...

in Serbia exist somewhat bizarre saying "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you" which may indicate that proto-IE was spread by I2a, which is idea that makes some sense as various I2a branches we find in different areas of Europe, while R1b and R1a are mostly constrained to west / east Europe respectively...

I agree that there must be a connection here. That is re I2a2a-Dinaric, though 'Dinaric' seems to have made no impact on Britain in terms of being able to locate haplotypes.

The German-founded, 'western' kind of I2a2- I2a2b-Isles was probably brought to Germany from eastern Europe via LBK bands. Then we have the birth of L161 SNP in Germany, and the 'Isles' I2a2 carried to Britain in various 'waves', including some pre-Celts [Cruthin], Celts and later Anglo-Saxons.

Yes, you make a good point re I2a being found in different areas of Europe- south-east, east, north-west etc.

 

[KenCalgary]

As a member of the Disles clade (McGuire) I am VERY interested in your views and explanations but I'm wondering if we are hoping too much? The Disles clade has, I think, only about 15-20 members - very small - so could it be likely that we are descended from one man who arrived quite late rather than an ancient group?

 

[Regulus]

How Yes No,

-A very interesting suggestion.

Forgive me if someone else mentioned this part; About the Scythians in this case- Depending on the time period in question, one may need to be cautious in the use of the term "Scots" or "Scotland" when referring to the region or people we know today as Scotland or Scottish.

Prior to the days of the Roman withdrawal from Britain, the term "Scots" applied to people who lived in Ireland and the term itself was an alternative to "Irish". Modern-day Scotland (Then Caledonia) was inhabited by Celts who spoke Brythonic Celtic and by the Picts, who as you wrote were probably a Celtized/mixed group at least partly descended from pre-Celtic people.

At or after the period marking the end of Roman Britain, there were significant invasions/settling of Caledonia by these "Scots" or Irish. Their Gaelic eventually supplanted the Brythonic Celtic of the area and the ruling dynasties there became mixed in a number of cases. After this period, the term, "Scots" becomes applied exclusively to those who lived in modern-day Scotland and those in Ireland are only called Irish. (or Gaels)

The name of Scythians and Scot is still intriguing to me, though. Perhaps the relationship is with a Proto IE root word from which the names themselves are derived. As you mentioned, the Scythians are R1a, but there is very little R1a in Ireland and what little there is there is believed to be from Viking, Anglo-Normans, and English settlers. I would like to see more on this.

 

[Yorkie]

How Yes No,

-A very interesting suggestion.

Forgive me if someone else mentioned this part; About the Scythians in this case- Depending on the time period in question, one may need to be cautious in the use of the term "Scots" or "Scotland" when referring to the region or people we know today as Scotland or Scottish.

Prior to the days of the Roman withdrawal from Britain, the term "Scots" applied to people who lived in Ireland and the term itself was an alternative to "Irish". Modern-day Scotland (Then Caledonia) was inhabited by Celts who spoke Brythonic Celtic and by the Picts, who as you wrote were probably a Celtized/mixed group at least partly descended from pre-Celtic people.

At or after the period marking the end of Roman Britain, there were significant invasions/settling of Caledonia by these "Scots" or Irish. Their Gaelic eventually supplanted the Brythonic Celtic of the area and the ruling dynasties there became mixed in a number of cases. After this period, the term, "Scots" becomes applied exclusively to those who lived in modern-day Scotland and those in Ireland are only called Irish. (or Gaels)

The name of Scythians and Scot is still intriguing to me, though. Perhaps the relationship is with a Proto IE root word from which the names themselves are derived. As you mentioned, the Scythians are R1a, but there is very little R1a in Ireland and what little there is there is believed to be from Viking, Anglo-Normans, and English settlers. I would like to see more on this.

We can regard R1a1 as effectively absent in Ireland. It is not usually encountered in the dna of the Anglo-Norman families, or in Ulster Protestants. Neither is it usually encountered in areas of known Norse Viking settlement like Limerick and Dublin. Shame really...

 

[Yorkie]

As a member of the Disles clade (McGuire) I am VERY interested in your views and explanations but I'm wondering if we are hoping too much? The Disles clade has, I think, only about 15-20 members - very small - so could it be likely that we are descended from one man who arrived quite late rather than an ancient group?

You may have to be heroically patient, but I believe it will be worth the wait. Eventually, the databases will enlarge and we will learn more about your 'Disles' clade. It is definately closer in GD to I2a2a-Dinaric than to L161 I2a2b-Isles, and it is absent in eastern Europe. So far, there are no known continental members, and Scotland followed by Ireland seems to be the 'hotspot'. Things change....once I2a2b-Isles was just a few haplotypes. Now it is still tiny, but we know more about its distribution and foundation, and we have a useful, distinguishing SNP. Hang in there...

 

[Regulus]

We can regard R1a1 as effectively absent in Ireland. It is not usually encountered in the dna of the Anglo-Norman families, or in Ulster Protestants. Neither is it usually encountered in areas of known Norse Viking settlement like Limerick and Dublin. Shame really...

I only felt that the mention of R1a was necessary due to the Scythians being a main part of the topic. For the record, I am perfectly fine with "effectively absent" in place of "very little". The main point was that those called "Scots" at the time could not be close kin of the Scythians.

 

[Yorkie]

I only felt that the mention of R1a was necessary due to the Scythians being a main part of the topic. For the record, I am perfectly fine with "effectively absent" in place of "very little". The main point was that those called "Scots" at the time could not be close kin of the Scythians.

Hi Regulus,
There are obviously isolated cases of R1a1 in Ireland. A good pal of mine with an Anglo-Norman pedigree gets a match with a Corbett in the west of Ireland, but such matches are pretty rare.

I have a theory that R1a1 was once more prevalent in Ireland, amongst the Catholic 'Old English', descendants of the Cambro-Norman invaders with names such as Burke, FitzGerald etc. With the 'Flight of the Earls' to places like Spain etc, after the defeat of O'Neil, maybe much of this R1a1 was taken with them? I am not suggesting that the R1a1 level in Ireland has ever been above 1-2%, but I think it must have been higher than the present levels.

The Hiberno-Norse, who settled in Ireland until Brian Boruma and co booted them out, certainly carried substantial levels of R1a1. They moved to places like The Wirral in Cheshire [England], and their descendants in modern-day Wirral have been proved to carry above average levels of R1a1 [see Jobling's 'Wirral and West Lancashire' project].

 

[Yorkie]

I only felt that the mention of R1a was necessary due to the Scythians being a main part of the topic. For the record, I am perfectly fine with "effectively absent" in place of "very little". The main point was that those called "Scots" at the time could not be close kin of the Scythians.

I agree re Scythians.

 

[Blau]

Sorry to bump a thread after it being inactive for so long but i found this really interesting.

Whilst reading i remembered a further possible link between the Picts and the Balkans with the etymology of the name "Alba", although there is no proven link.

The term first appears in classical texts as Ἀλβίων or Ἀλουΐων (in Ptolemy's writings), later as Albion in Latin documents. Historically, the term refers to Britain as a whole and is ultimately based on the Indo-European root for "white".[1] It later came to be used by Gaelic speakers in the form of Alba (dative Albainn, genitive Albann, now obsolete) as the name given to the former kingdom of the Picts which had by the time of its first usage with this meaning, expanded around the time of king Causantín mac Áeda (Constantine II, 943-952). The region Breadalbane (Bràghad Albainn, the upper part of "Alba") takes its name from it as well.
As time passed that kingdom incorporated others to the southern territories. It became re-Latinized in the High Medieval period as "Albania" (it is unclear whether it may ultimately share the same etymon as the modern Albania).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba#Etymology

Perhaps there is a common link here between settlers in Scotland and the Western Balkans. It would certainly fit with the theories of Balkan expansion to Ireland and Scotland that have been in this thread. Interesting.

 

[Reinaert]

Alban stands for "white rocks".
Albion is simply the land of the white cliffs.

When the first R1b moved into Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland, the first thing they saw was the white cliffs of Dover.
And so they used the name "Albion" for it.
Or "Albannach" in Scottish

I guess it's the west of Scotland (highlands), Wales and the Republic of Ireland, also the west of England, and also Southern Netherlands, Belgium and part of France, that all share the same origin.

Eastern Scotland (Lowlands) and Eastern England are different, and therefore also the people who got deported into Northern Ireland.

The difference between the Scots still is alive today.
Think of the rivalry between Celtic and the Rangers.

And of course I am a Celtic fan. :heart:

 

[Blau]

Also, i'm not sure what the general consensus was in the end after reading through this thread. Was it accepted that the Scythians aren't the ancestors of the Caledonians, and it is perhaps people from the Balkans (due R1a rates not matching), or could it just be that due to intermixing along the way that the R1a just got diluted so much that it basically became so minute it wasn't highly detectable and that other haplogroups such as I2 became the majority?
Another possible idea could be that whoever the Caledonians were, were just a ruling elite which would explain the low frequencies of I.
I'm all new to this stuff though, so really i'm just throwing random guesses out here and you guys (the more experienced people) will be able to tell better

 

[Blau]

Alban stands for "white rocks".
Albion is simply the land of the white cliffs.

When the first R1b moved into Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland, the first thing they saw was the white cliffs of Dover.
And so they used the name "Albion" for it.
Or "Albannach" in Scottish

Why did the Gaels refer specifically to the Picts as that then? I don't understand

 

[Reinaert]

Well, as I said.. The east of the UK has more germanic influence, the west is more celtic.

And Celts liked to paint their body, if there was a war to be fought.

Picts.. Painted People. The name used by the Romans.

 

[Blau]

Well, as I said.. The east of the UK has more germanic influence, the west is more celtic.

And Celts liked to paint their body, if their was a war to be fought.

Picts.. Painted People.

This was pre Germanic settlement in Scotland though. I thought maybe it had some relation to them being the "Painted people" too, but the records say that they painted themselves in blue [i believe].

Oh and i'm actually a Rangers fan, born and bred.

 

[Taranis]

This was pre Germanic settlement in Scotland though. I thought maybe it had some relation to them being the "Painted people" too, but the records say that they painted themselves in blue [i believe].

In my opinion, the Picts were most probably the same as the Britons, or a distinct Celtic people who spoke a language that was closer to Gaulish than to Brythonic. This is very clear from what little Pictish place and tribal names are recorded in ancient sources. In any case, the term "Picts" was an exonym coined by the Romans, refering to the population of Britain living north of the Hadrian's Wall. Regarding the practice of painting oneself blue, this was actually found in all of Britain. Even Caesar mentions this in "Bello Gallico".

 

[Blau]

In my opinion, the Picts were most probably the same as the Britons, or a distinct Celtic people who spoke a language that was closer to Gaulish than to Brythonic.

This would make sense from what i understand:

Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26651-Scots-how-Celtic-are-they

I just thought that its very unusual how much circumstantial evidence for this there is.

 

[thecelt]

this is my first post on the forum so hello all. at any rate, to chime in on R1a in Scotland and Ireland I also firmly believe it is in Northern Ireland primarily from the plantation period or possibly earlier viking influence, and Scotland through the Vikings. I am confirmed L21+ , but my maternal grandfather was R1a (predicted R1a1a M417) and through genealogical research I have confirmed that he was a Norse Viking that settled in Scotland (Renfrewshire).

 

[Bodin]

I2a2 -Din is Sarmathian as I explained . I2a2-Disles is realy rare and show that it is hier from late times . Could it be that it is from Arthur and his knights( they have lot of Sarmathian elements, armored knights with long spears, round table of leaders, sword in stone/hill , tamga/heraldy on shields ,Uther Pendragon -son of Dragon and Sarmathian Dragonstandart ,legend of once and future king, one handed warior ,...) , Marcus Aurelius beat Sarmathians and settled 5000 auxiliars near Hadrian wall - and that is exacly were you could find I2a2-Disles

 

[sparkey]

I2a2 -Din is Sarmathian as I explained . I2a2-Disles is realy rare and show that it is hier from late times . Could it be that it is from Arthur and his knights( they have lot of Sarmathian elements, armored knights with long spears, round table of leaders, sword in stone/hill , tamga/heraldy on shields ,Uther Pendragon -son of Dragon and Sarmathian Dragonstandart ,legend of once and future king, one handed warior ,...) , Marcus Aurelius beat Sarmathians and settled 5000 auxiliars near Hadrian wall - and that is exacly were you could find I2a2-Disles

Uhh... quite the... theory there, Bodin...

Well, let's try to take it seriously for a moment. The TMRCA of I2a-Din and I2a-Disles together is about twice the TMRCA of I2a-Din or I2a-Disles separately, dating back about 6000 years, so we really don't expect them to be related together by a common Classical element, it must be pre-Classical. You're right, at least, that Disles has a geographic spread that is fairly northern in Britain, but that's not a good thing to associate with Arthur, because if he existed, he probably would have been fairly southern as Britons go. Most attempts to place his operations have placed them around places like Monmouthshire, Cornwall, and Somerset. And that's supposing that Geoffrey of Monmouth wasn't just making things up, which is probably the case.