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Thread: British: Celtic and Germanic origins

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    British: Celtic and Germanic origins

    Is it possible to estimate what proportion of British ancestry is Celtic and Germanic (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman)?

    Is all hg. I1 in Britain Germanic in origin?

    Where did the I2 come from? Has it been in Britain since before the Celts? Or did it come with the Celts or the Germanics?

    Is the R1a in Britain Germanic or did it come with the Celts? Or could it have arrived before the Celts?

    How much of the R1b is Celtic or Germanic? Would the Germanic tribes have brought over a mix of R1b types?

    And what about the slight G2, J2 and E3b presence? Is there any way of telling when those arrived?

    T and Q are also present at 0.5%

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    I1 ,R1a, Q arrived with the Vikings, ANglo-Saxons and Jutes
    R1b arrived also with all these germanics but also with celts. It is about 50/50 of the Celtic S116 and the germanic U106 branches.
    I2 is probably of palaeolithic origin from the south european expansion after the glacial refuge
    G2, J2, and E3b probably came with the neolithic farmers, but also could be some minority of Roman presence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I1 ,R1a, Q arrived with the Vikings, ANglo-Saxons and Jutes
    R1b arrived also with all these germanics but also with celts. It is about 50/50 of the Celtic S116 and the germanic U106 branches.
    I2 is probably of palaeolithic origin from the south european expansion after the glacial refuge
    G2, J2, and E3b probably came with the neolithic farmers, but also could be some minority of Roman presence.
    If thats right then England would be about 53% Germanic from the I1, R1a, Q and 50% of the R1b, according to the haplogroup figures given at eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml.

    Could the Germanics have brought over some of the S116? Is S116 present in Germany today? Did the ancient Germanics have U106 and S116 or just U106?

    Could the Germanics have brought over some of the I2, G2, J2 and E3b? All of these haplogroups are present in Germany today. Would the ancient Germanics have had these haplogroups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    Could the Germanics have brought over some of the S116? Is S116 present in Germany today? Did the ancient Germanics have U106 and S116 or just U106?
    yes, of course germanics have and had S116 yes, but it's much rare in northern germany(anglo-saxons) or Scandinavia

    Could the Germanics have brought over some of the I2, G2, J2 and E3b? All of these haplogroups are present in Germany today. Would the ancient Germanics have had these haplogroups?
    Yes, it's posible, since all these haplogorup were introduced in Europe in Neolithic times. Altough the E3b or J2 is very rare in northern germany, where the anglo-saxons came from. It is much more frequent in south Germany about 8%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I1 ,R1a, Q arrived with the Vikings, ANglo-Saxons and Jutes
    R1b arrived also with all these germanics but also with celts. It is about 50/50 of the Celtic S116 and the germanic U106 branches.
    I2 is probably of palaeolithic origin from the south european expansion after the glacial refuge
    G2, J2, and E3b probably came with the neolithic farmers, but also could be some minority of Roman presence.
    I2 needs to be split into the different clades here:
    M26 I2a1 was probably founded in Iberia and in most cases probably pre-Celtic in origin when found in Britain.
    I2b1 can be both of Germanic origin [more Anglo-Saxon than Danish, Norse] and ancient, pre-Celtic origin. McEvoy and Bradley [2010] assign I2b1a largely to La Tene Celts.

    L161 I2a2b-Isles was probably founded in northern Germany, and some of it dates back to the Neolithic [Nordtvedt], whilst some came later with Celts [Manco], and Anglo-Saxons [Sykes, Klyosov, Manco, Owen].

    I2a3-Western is founded near north sea and was probably brought to Britain by Anglo-Saxons

    I2a2a-Disles- is a tiny clade so far found only in Scotland and Ireland. Probably pre-Celtic in origin.

    I2a2a-Dinaric- the true, south-east european I2a2 is absent in Britain.

    Regarding R1b, most R1b appears to be of pre-Celtic and Celtic origin save for the following:

    R1b-U106/S21 -in some cases it is likely Germanic but there is no evidence that it is always Germanic.

    R1b-U198/S29- this rarer clade appears strongly Germanic as does S26.

    Also, a recently-discovered 'Norse' form of R1b, tested for as SNP S182 by Ethnoancestry appears Germanic in origin.

    I disagree with the 50/50 Germanic/Celtic scenario envisaged by some for R1b. I think it is far more likely 70 Celtic and 30 Germanic, at least in Britain.

    Re I1 and R1a1 in Britain- these are clearly Germanic/Scandinavian when found in British men. R1a1 is more often or not a signal of Norwegian Viking origin when found in British men [Wilson], but Danes, Normans and Anglo-Saxons carried R1a1 too. I1 can indicate descent from Danes, Normans and Anglo-Saxons. According to Nordtvedt, Barac and also Tambetts, the 23 at 390 and 13 at 462 type of I1 is more likely to be Scandinavian in origin, and the 22 at 390, 12 at 462 form a more likely indicator of lowland Germanic origin [i,e, Anglo Saxon]. The latter form predominates in lowland Germanic countries and Britain.

    As for G2, J2 and E3b having Roman connections, I see no evidence in the form of an academic paper to support this conjecture. However, there is strong amateur consensus that E3b, in particular, might link to the Romans in some cases. There is evidence from Sykes for a Neolithic origin for all 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    yes, of course germanics have and had S116 yes, but it's much rare in northern germany(anglo-saxons) or Scandinavia

    Yes, it's posible, since all these haplogorup were introduced in Europe in Neolithic times. Altough the E3b or J2 is very rare in northern germany, where the anglo-saxons came from. It is much more frequent in south Germany about 8%
    G2, J2 and E3b are even rarer in England.

    Northern Germany has slightly higher levels of G2, J2 and E3b than England. ( eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml )

    G2 = 1.5% in England, 3.5% in northern Germany
    J2 = 3.5 in England and 4 in northen Germany
    E3b = 1 in England and 2.5 in northern Germany

    They make up only 6% of English ancestry anyway.

    S116 is more substantial. Is there any way that we can get a figure for S116 in Germany/ northern Germany? Are there any sub-groups within S116 that we can age, that might indicate how much S116 came over with the Germanics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I2 needs to be split into the different clades here:
    M26 I2a1 was probably founded in Iberia and in most cases probably pre-Celtic in origin when found in Britain.
    I2b1 can be both of Germanic origin [more Anglo-Saxon than Danish, Norse] and ancient, pre-Celtic origin. McEvoy and Bradley [2010] assign I2b1a largely to La Tene Celts.

    L161 I2a2b-Isles was probably founded in northern Germany, and some of it dates back to the Neolithic [Nordtvedt], whilst some came later with Celts [Manco], and Anglo-Saxons [Sykes, Klyosov, Manco, Owen].

    I2a3-Western is founded near north sea and was probably brought to Britain by Anglo-Saxons

    I2a2a-Disles- is a tiny clade so far found only in Scotland and Ireland. Probably pre-Celtic in origin.

    I2a2a-Dinaric- the true, south-east european I2a2 is absent in Britain.

    Regarding R1b, most R1b appears to be of pre-Celtic and Celtic origin save for the following:

    R1b-U106/S21 -in some cases it is likely Germanic but there is no evidence that it is always Germanic.

    R1b-U198/S29- this rarer clade appears strongly Germanic as does S26.

    Also, a recently-discovered 'Norse' form of R1b, tested for as SNP S182 by Ethnoancestry appears Germanic in origin.

    I disagree with the 50/50 Germanic/Celtic scenario envisaged by some for R1b. I think it is far more likely 70 Celtic and 30 Germanic, at least in Britain.

    Re I1 and R1a1 in Britain- these are clearly Germanic/Scandinavian when found in British men. R1a1 is more often or not a signal of Norwegian Viking origin when found in British men [Wilson], but Danes, Normans and Anglo-Saxons carried R1a1 too. I1 can indicate descent from Danes, Normans and Anglo-Saxons. According to Nordtvedt, Barac and also Tambetts, the 23 at 390 and 13 at 462 type of I1 is more likely to be Scandinavian in origin, and the 22 at 390, 12 at 462 form a more likely indicator of lowland Germanic origin [i,e, Anglo Saxon]. The latter form predominates in lowland Germanic countries and Britain.

    As for G2, J2 and E3b having Roman connections, I see no evidence in the form of an academic paper to support this conjecture. However, there is strong amateur consensus that E3b, in particular, might link to the Romans in some cases. There is evidence from Sykes for a Neolithic origin for all 3.
    Thanks for sharing that!



    Do you think that it is possible yet to give any sort of estimate for Celtic/ Germanic origin in England and the rest of Britain? Is it likely to ever be possible to give a fair estimate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    Thanks for sharing that!



    Do you think that it is possible yet to give any sort of estimate for Celtic/ Germanic origin in England and the rest of Britain? Is it likely to ever be possible to give a fair estimate?
    There is conflicting evidence already. Without going into great detail, the likes of Bryan Sykes, Stephen Oppenheimer, David Goldstein etc appear to think that the pre-Celtic, and Celtic populations contributed more to the British gene-pool than did the Germanic/ Scandinavian invasions. Sykes appears to acknowledge a greater Germanic input than does Oppenheimer [whose figures for Anglo-Saxon contributions are around 5%!], but even he sees the Germanic input in England as around 15%. Those such as Oppenheimer and Peter Forster see Germanic input as dating to far earlier than the historical 'Anglo-Saxon' and 'Viking' period, beyond the Neolithic. Conversely Weale et al have suggested that in England the Anglo-Saxon invasions made a much larger impact.

    So far, much of the analysis has involved both Ydna and to a lesser extent, Mtdna. However, Sir Walter Bodmer has made estimates which take into account more than just the single set of Y chromosome markers used by Weale's team and Goldstein's team. Bodmer has looked at a host of different genetic variants including those associated with rhesus negativity, biological markers of the HLA system, blood group, and versions of the MC1R gene [for red hair] found in dna. From this, Bodmer and his team came up with the following estimates for percentages of Celtic versus Germanic ancestry in the British. The team surveyed various English counties, and the results [below] are easily available in Robin McKie's [2006] The Face of Britain. London: Simon and Schuster. Anyone interested in British ethnology should read this book:

    Northumberland and Durham: 77% Germanic, 23% Celtic
    Sussex and Kent: 71% Germanic, 29% Celtic
    Cumbria: 56% Germanic, 44% Celtic
    Oxfordshire: 49% Germanic, 51% Celtic

    The analyses assume that Cornwall, Devon, and Wales are the most Celtic parts of southern Britain, and that East Anglia and Lincolnshire are the most Germanic.

    Unfortunately, Bodmer's test is not commercially available. He did, however, test one 'celebrity', Tory MP Ann Widdecombe [largely of Cornish/Devon ancestry]. Widdecombe turned out to be 50% Germanic, and 50% Celtic.

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    English people in autosomal genetics cluster and/or overlap with Germans, Danes,etc That is only posible if there is substantial germanic/nordic input which I believe is the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    English people in autosomal genetics cluster and/or overlap with Germans, Danes,etc That is only posible if there is substantial germanic/nordic input which I believe is the case.
    Of course. My own ancestry is largely English with an emphasis on Yorkshire and East Anglia. I haven't tested for autosomal dna yet but I imagine that I would get many German and Danish matches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post

    I2a2a-Dinaric- the true, south-east european I2a2 is absent in Britain.
    Actually, I am I2a2 Dinaric South and according to FTDNA I have 20 exact matches 12/12. Among them are people with surnames: Stanton, Adams, McDonald. I would say they sound quite British. So I2a2 Dinaric is not absent in Britain. The question is only how they get there?
    I2a2 Dinaric is usually associated with eastern Europe and Balkans, but half of my exact matches 12/12 are people from northwestern Europe like Melzer, Thiel, Everts, Clauder, Stroup.
    In all this studies in Britain, is there any study that shows presence of I2a2 Dinaric in any percent on the British Isles?

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    I do not understand why Q (mongolic haplogroup) is present in Britain.
    Taken with the Germanic tribes? It seems me not realistic, because
    the haplogroup Q is absent in the Netherlands, North-Germany and
    Denmark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Of course. My own ancestry is largely English with an emphasis on Yorkshire and East Anglia. I haven't tested for autosomal dna yet but I imagine that I would get many German and Danish matches.
    Yorkie, I had my Autosomal DNA tested by GeneBase. How do I go about comparing my Autosomal DNA with other peoples? I did'nt see an option for ADNA in YSearch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Actually, I am I2a2 Dinaric South and according to FTDNA I have 20 exact matches 12/12. Among them are people with surnames: Stanton, Adams, McDonald. I would say they sound quite British. So I2a2 Dinaric is not absent in Britain. The question is only how they get there?
    I2a2 Dinaric is usually associated with eastern Europe and Balkans, but half of my exact matches 12/12 are people from northwestern Europe like Melzer, Thiel, Everts, Clauder, Stroup.
    In all this studies in Britain, is there any study that shows presence of I2a2 Dinaric in any percent on the British Isles?
    I would be very careful indeed with matches on such short ['bikini'] haplotypes. If I told you that I get almost 20 close matches with R1a1 people on 12 markers, would that surprise you? I am I2a2b-Isles and at low resolution, my signature can easily be mistaken for R1a1, but snp typing and 43 STR markers show me to be firmly I2a2b-Isles.

    I2a2a-Dinaric is effectively absent in Britain, but Nordtvedt has a small list of around 9 or 10 that might be NPEs, relatives of Polish military who stayed after WW2 etc. You will find I2a2a-Dinaric in tiny numbers in some countries like Germany but this is usually down to immigration from the east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCoutts View Post
    Yorkie, I had my Autosomal DNA tested by GeneBase. How do I go about comparing my Autosomal DNA with other peoples? I did'nt see an option for ADNA in YSearch?
    Sorry, David, I'm not sure. I have yet to take the plunge with autosomal testing. I keep in mind what Peter Forster told me- that at this stage continental testing might be accurate but inter-continental testing isn't reliable enough. What I'm interested in is percentage of Scandinavian dna etc. I'll wait a while...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    I do not understand why Q (mongolic haplogroup) is present in Britain.
    Taken with the Germanic tribes? It seems me not realistic, because
    the haplogroup Q is absent in the Netherlands, North-Germany and
    Denmark.
    Q haplogroup is around 4% in Norway. It is therefore feasible that small quantities were brought to Britain as a minority clade with Norwegian Vikings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I would be very careful indeed with matches on such short ['bikini'] haplotypes. If I told you that I get almost 20 close matches with R1a1 people on 12 markers, would that surprise you? I am I2a2b-Isles and at low resolution, my signature can easily be mistaken for R1a1, but snp typing and 43 STR markers show me to be firmly I2a2b-Isles.
    I2a2a-Dinaric is effectively absent in Britain, but Nordtvedt has a small list of around 9 or 10 that might be NPEs, relatives of Polish military who stayed after WW2 etc. You will find I2a2a-Dinaric in tiny numbers in some countries like Germany but this is usually down to immigration from the east.
    I understand that there are haplotypes which may refer to two different haplogroups in 12 markers, but actually I did test on 67 markers and people I mentioned before also had tested 67 markers. For example, McDonald is my closest match on 25 marker analysis (-2), and on 67 (-10) , and the same thing is with Clauder and Stroup which have also done 67 analysis. Not to mention that they are actually genetically closest people to me in all databases I search, including those of ex-Yugoslavian. As far I know that McDonald is American with ancestry for few centuries in USA so he couldn't be from some recent migration from Eastern Europe. Stroup and Clauder are also Americans with German origins,for a centuries also residing in USA.
    I also believe that my 12 marker haplotype could not be assigned to any other haplogroup but to I2a2 Dinaric (as much I saw in databases).
    So, as I understand, you believe that there is no I2a2 Dinaric in Britain except those which was caused with some recent migration (in XX century)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    I understand that there are haplotypes which may refer to two different haplogroups in 12 markers, but actually I did test on 67 markers and people I mentioned before also had tested 67 markers. For example, McDonald is my closest match on 25 marker analysis (-2), and on 67 (-10) , and the same thing is with Clauder and Stroup which have also done 67 analysis. Not to mention that they are actually genetically closest people to me in all databases I search, including those of ex-Yugoslavian. As far I know that McDonald is American with ancestry for few centuries in USA so he couldn't be from some recent migration from Eastern Europe. Stroup and Clauder are also Americans with German origins,for a centuries also residing in USA.
    I also believe that my 12 marker haplotype could not be assigned to any other haplogroup but to I2a2 Dinaric (as much I saw in databases).
    So, as I understand, you believe that there is no I2a2 Dinaric in Britain except those which was caused with some recent migration (in XX century)?
    I am going by Ken Nordtvedt's research into I2a2 here. As I said, Ken possesses a mere handful of I2a2a-Dinaric haplotypes which are associated with British names. These, and the examples you cite, seem a drop in the ocean. Ken regards I2a2a-Dinaric as effectively absent in Britain, and I think he is correct to maintain this position. Scattered examples do not make for a significant presence. The I2a2 found in Britain and Ireland is massively, overwhelmingly I2a2b-Isles [and that is for a small clade in itself].

    There are often tiny occurences of 'rogue' haplotypes in lots of countries. In I2a2a-Dinaric's case, NPEs, Polish military etc spring to mind. Also, there are cases in Scotland of Polish immigration in Lanark which precede WW2, and legends of Hungarian ancestry in a couple of Scottish Clans. This might explain the MacDonald connection?

    These examples aside, there is simply no reason why I2a2a-Dinaric should figure in either the British or Irish gene-pool, as there has been no significant contribution to either gene-pool by Slavic or Balkan peoples.

    By the way, are you certain that 'Clauder' and 'Stroup' are names of British origin? Without checking, they don't sound British to me.

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    I should like to know about the presence of haplogroup Q in Europe.
    Is it only present in East-Europe and a little in Norway-Sweden-Finland?
    I understand that haplogroup Q is in Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands
    and Belgium totally absent?


    Erik

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    Regarding Q, I only have the figures of 4% for Norway and 3% for Hungary. It must be near to absent in Britain, surely? At any rate, it is not regarded as anything near typical of the gene-pool.

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    It'll be interesting to know if Q in Hungary is the same as in Norway. Personally I think they are different.
    Q in Hungary will be from central Asia. Q in Norway will be Arctic Siberian.
    Probably they split 10 thousand years ago when Ice Age ended and some Q moved North. Once they had evolved to prosper in far North, they've spread around Arctic Circle also reaching Norway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It'll be interesting to know if Q in Hungary is the same as in Norway. Personally I think they are different.
    Q in Hungary will be from central Asia. Q in Norway will be Arctic Siberian.
    Probably they split 10 thousand years ago when Ice Age ended and some Q moved North. Once they had evolved to prosper in far North, they've spread around Arctic Circle also reaching Norway.
    I think you are correct regarding the Norwegian Q hailing from Arctic Siberia. There is not much of it in Britain, but what there is most likely comes via Norwegian Viking raids/settlement.

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    I was interested to see the new R1b maps (L21, S28, S21) at

    eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#R1b

    Are we any clearer on the question of how much English ancestry is Germanic and how much is older British?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    I was interested to see the new R1b maps (L21, S28, S21) at

    eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#R1b

    Are we any clearer on the question of how much English ancestry is Germanic and how much is older British?
    As far as I do understand is U106 related to Germanic people and it is not from Iberia!

    English folks have for about 30-40% of it.


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    No, England is not 30-40% U106. The average frequency of U106 over the whole of England, based on Busby et al, is about 20%. L21 was about the same, despite Busby's somewhat eastern sampling bias. My guess is that L21 actually surpasses U106 in England. A hint that that is the case was the sample from Exeter in Devon, which was about 38% L21. If Busby had sampled a few more locations in western England, L21 would have easily passed U106 by. That's my opinion, anyway.

    Haplogroup-R1b-L21 Map.jpg

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