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Thread: Thoughts from Klyosov R1b data and the IE problem

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    [QUOTE=MOESAN;430244]
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post


    Yes we have Croatian potkovatiand Bulgarian podkovavam meaning«to shoe horses», O.K.
    But a link between words likekovař/kowal/kovačand words likekobila/kobyla ? I think it'sgoing to far – the V >< B differenceis not an obstacle in a diachronic point of view and the /b>>v/evolution is very common in some languages, for the most betweenvowels – but in a same language at the same stage of history,without dialectal forms, it becomes an obstacle to the conclusion ofa common origin - &: the prononuciation is /v/ and /b/ in everyslavic language between vowels, so no sound according to otherconsonnant, whatever the spelling – all the slavic languages I saw(russian, polish, czech, serbian-croatian, bulgarian) present thesame opposition in these two meanings -
    /v/>< /b/so... 2different roots, I bet -


    theonly semantical link between the words concerning smith work andhorses in slavics are based on the «metal» notion, nothing else –the same occur in breton where the original «smith» equivalent, gov(gob- inceltic) is very often replaced by the word marichal/marchalof germanic origin and passedin it through french language – marichal / maréchal(marshall) derives fromgerm-(OHG) marah-skalkwhere the «horse» notion is evident (the smithes used to shoehorses with iron shoes) -


    inrussian and polish there are two seemingly different roots for«smith-» or «smithy» or «to forge»: kov-and kuc- [koots] -
    Ihave no idea of their possible link and the previous generic meaning-
    veryhazardous hypothesis (fun): '°'= MY bets >< '*'= scholars bets-
    kuts<< °kow+k+j ?°kow-d-s ? < - >°kow-ak-j ? >>kovac (monophtonguisons is common in slavic evolution (here /ou/ >>/u/) as well as lost of consonnants in groups) -
    anI-Ean root *kau-would exist (scholars) : «to cut», «to prune» - Lat- cu-dere,cusum to beat, to forge», «toform» + incus, incudis,Italian incudine,French enclume«anvil», see Polish kowadlo«anvil» Germ-O-H-G houwan >> hauen : «to hew» – heu : «hay»>> French houe,houlette, hoyau – English tohew >> hay -
    theCzech kovina «metal»could very well be the source and explanation and cut short otherspeculations?
    #
    kobila <<kobyla <<°kobula <<°kob-l << °kăb-lor°kăp-l,see caballusbut too capal/ceffyl(celticwhere the root seems being °kapp-l–) - ? an european root, perhaps non I-Ean ? -
    &:in Kurdic I found in a dictionary the words: keil,kiayl «purerace horse», Turkic kehlanati – it's pure speculation for curiositylacking the old forms, knowing the phonetical evolution can send usvery far, so I don't know if we have here a cognate of°kabal-/°kappal???


    alater loan to celtic (?) or other I-Ean 'kaval'could explain the form kovalbuthere again, kovalis not a one-bit word but a compound ofkov+al,as we can see with other slavic derived words on the same ground:kovačnica/ kowadlo/ kovati...
    Russian kabil is the dog in the popular sense and it is also an insult

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmonomad View Post
    Hi,
    I thought you might like this.
    Klyosov is publishing a series of articles on R1b and related burial practices. The latest one (in Russian, use google translate) at pereformat_ru/2014/05/arbins-2/ - I cannot link yet, replace the underscore with dot.

    A small exerpt from his correspondence with linguist Klein about yet unpublished results:


    Two out of three afanasievo remains and one okunevo remains tested R1b1 (M269) and one afanasievan – R1b.
    this is a big surprise

    any idea when and where it will be published ?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this is a big surprise

    any idea when and where it will be published ?
    Nothing in the article about the publication date. It is to be by Klein's former student Kovalyov who's been digging in Mongolia and Xinjiang. They are linking the Chemurchek culture to a clear migration from France (surprise!) - you can find more in English. Klein isn't as certain as Kovalyov about a relation to the tokhar language. They radio-carbon calibrated the afanasievo remains to 3000-2600 b.c.

    One thing, three years ago Klein decided to stick to Zhivotovskiy's evolutionary mutation rates, I wonder what they will do this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmonomad View Post
    Nothing in the article about the publication date. It is to be by Klein's former student Kovalyov who's been digging in Mongolia and Xinjiang. They are linking the Chemurchek culture to a clear migration from France (surprise!) - you can find more in English. Klein isn't as certain as Kovalyov about a relation to the tokhar language. They radio-carbon calibrated the afanasievo remains to 3000-2600 b.c.

    One thing, three years ago Klein decided to stick to Zhivotovskiy's evolutionary mutation rates, I wonder what they will do this time.
    Thanks kosmonomad, can you possibly give a translation of the quotes between A.Klyosov and theoretical archeologist L. Klejn/Klein. Do both L. Klein and A. Kovalev have reason to believe a genetic ydna and or mtdna connection between France and Chemurchek culture in Western Mongolia ?
    Is it the same as A.A. Kovalev
    https://www.academia.edu/4970951/Kov..._2011._P._1-58

    If it is can you translate #39 reference study where mtdna was found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Thanks kosmonomad, can you possibly give a translation of the quotes between A.Klyosov and theoretical archeologist L. Klejn/Klein. Do both L. Klein and A. Kovalev have reason to believe a genetic ydna and or mtdna connection between France and Chemurchek culture in Western Mongolia ?
    Is it the same as A.A. Kovalev

    If it is can you translate #39 reference study where mtdna was found.

    I am not sure this isn't the old-fashioned approach, not the paleolithic continuity model for R1b, not Zhivo's rates. I hope they have taken Klyosov's criticism and have gone for more than a 6- or 12-marker haplotypes which they ran through a y-dna predictor. No mention of any tested terminal SNPs - I hope they did at least some.
    Such materials should be tested very thoroughly for the newest defining SNPs at the relevant level.


    Klejn:
    I have a student, Aleksey Kovalev, He has been excavating many years in Mongolia and Xinjiang. He published in The Russian Archeology Yearbook 2011 a sensational article "The great Chemurchek migration" - about origin of Chemurchek culture of Altay and Xinjiang directly form Western and Southern France. It is the 3rd millenium b.c. He links this culture to Tochars. I have the impression that the migration is confirmed, but the link to Tochars calls for a line-up of questions...

    I think you will be interested to know that my student Alexei Kovalev , the man who investigated Chemurchek culture of Altai , Mongolia and Xinjiang (apparently Tochars) and released two books about it, did DNA tests on afanasievans and okunevans. Two out of three afanasievans and one okunevan were R1b1 (M269), one afanasievan - R1b1. Kovalev has radiocarbon ages of many afanasievans: calibrated 3000-2600 b.c. Chemurchek culture very clearly is from France.
    Klyosov:
    I advise to A. Kovalev that he shows the data to me before the publication, to avoid an embarrassment. I hope he has data on inhumation? ...I don't exclude at all that ancient R1b were in Southern Siberia, I myself described it and dated based on DNA. Simply we have to exclude false attribution and we should know who determined these R1b and R1b1, what sort of haplotypes (if they were not done - it's a big miss) , and put it in historical context. I think you do not need to be explained, like A. Kovalev. I hope it is clear why A. Kovalev should contact me.
    These letters are from January.


    Yes, Kovalev is the same man.

    [39] Куликов Е.Е., Кирюшин Ю.Ф., Серегин Ю.А., Тишкин А.А., Полтараус А.Б., Результаты палеогенетических исследований (по материалам погребений младенцев на памятнике Березовая Лука) // Березовая Лука – поселение эпохи бронзы в Алейской степи. Барнаул: Изд-во Алт. ун-та, 2005. Т. 1. С. 216–224.
    [39] Kulikov E.E., Kiryushin Yu.F., Seregin Yu.A., Tishkin A.A., Poltaraus A.B., "Results of paleogenetic research (materials on burials of infants at Berezovaya Luka)" // Berezovaya Luka - bronze age settlement in Alei Steppe. Barnaul: Altay University Press, 2005. T. 1. S. 216-224.
    It isn't available in English.
    Last edited by kosmonomad; 02-06-14 at 21:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm sorry but you are definitely mistaken. There is no sign whatsoever of ergativity in Proto-Indo-European, because the language had an accusative case and a nominative case (as opposed to an ergative case and an absolutive case, which is the counterpart in ergative languages). Also, Hittite was an Indo-European language (part of the Anatolian language family, along with the Luwic languages), and Hittite was an accusative/nominative language. The same applies for the other 'old' Indo-European languages such as Greek, Latin and Sanskrit.

    I should add that Hungarian and Finnish (both Uralic languages) are also are accusative/nominative languages, not ergative/absolutive, as are for example the Afroasiatic (including Berber, Egyptian and Semitic) languages.

    It is not possible for Proto-Indo-European to have been a pidgin/creole, as it had a very complex grammar, and in general creole languages have a very simplified grammer.
    I agree with what you have to say but Afroasiatic languages simply aren't ergative-absolutive, though proto-Berber and proto-Semitic might've displayed weak ergative features.

    Either way, the theory according to what PIE is a pidgin or a creole is preposterous and absolutely shattered by facts on the ground.

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    posted on Ftdna

    information circulating that Russian scientist and archaeologist Alexei Kovalev has recovered ancient R1b in some male remains from the Afanasievo Culture and the Okunevo Culture in the Altai Mountains in Mongolia. Two out of three Afanasievans and one Okunevan were R-M269, and one Afanasievan tested R-P25. Radiocarbon dates were 3000 - 2600 BC.

    There are stone stelae present like those from the Yamnaya Culture that spread across Europe from Crimea all the way to Iberia.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    posted on Ftdna

    information circulating that Russian scientist and archaeologist Alexei Kovalev has recovered ancient R1b in some male remains from the Afanasievo Culture and the Okunevo Culture in the Altai Mountains in Mongolia. Two out of three Afanasievans and one Okunevan were R-M269, and one Afanasievan tested R-P25. Radiocarbon dates were 3000 - 2600 BC.

    There are stone stelae present like those from the Yamnaya Culture that spread across Europe from Crimea all the way to Iberia.
    Just M269 or pos. downstream clades not further tested yet? i.e. a possibility for it to be further downstream clades from M269;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Just M269 or pos. downstream clades not further tested yet? i.e. a possibility for it to be further downstream clades from M269;
    Looking at the IE languages the intercultural exchange had to happen around 6-5 thousand years ago. We should be getting some data about mingling R1a and R1b at some point after that time.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Looking at the IE languages the intercultural exchange had to happen around 6-5 thousand years ago. We should be getting some data about mingling R1a and R1b at some point after that time.
    If this message is correct about R1b-M269 in Afanasevo than that could mean that certain R1b clades did enter Europe to the west with the Indo-Europeans because both this east (Afanasevo) expansion as well as all the west (into Europe expansions) trace back to the common Yamna complex; But that would depend on which clades of M269 those were in Afanasevo and if that quoted/post is even correct; As for the languages the Afanasevo complex is linked to the Tocharians the only centum Indo-European tongue in the east (far far east) and a language which still shows common features with the Keltic branch and the Italic branch in r-endings and ā-subjunctive; If that message is correct than highly interesting;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Just M269 or pos. downstream clades not further tested yet? i.e. a possibility for it to be further downstream clades from M269;
    I remember seeing an initiative to test ancient R1b samples. This should be a perfect opportunity. Academic research may still be lagging behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmonomad View Post
    I remember seeing an initiative to test ancient R1b samples. This should be a perfect opportunity. Academic research may still be lagging behind.
    Than lets hope it catches up fast; for if there really is R1b-M269 in Afanasevo than it would be a shame to waste it by no proper research at all;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Than lets hope it catches up fast; for if there really is R1b-M269 in Afanasevo than it would be a shame to waste it by no proper research at all;
    I agree. I'll remain dubious about the idea of ancient R1b in any quantity in that part of the world until that's proven, but if it's true, it's very significant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I've read somewhere that old Slavic kon was kobn, the horse female is kobyla in polish. Now we are closer to Italian caballo. Also horse run called trot is called kłus (eng phonetic: kwus, qwus) in polish, now we are close to IE eq'wos.
    The root is "KN" (Kon), which also meant "a law" (zakon; za-Kon) or better said "cycle" (КОН); "time keeper" (an emperor, a dynasty) in old Slavic. Gon is an "instinct" (nagon; Na-Gon; "on running(instinct"). From Kon came Kan or Konyaz or Kniaz or Knez (prince); "Koningaz" in later Gothic or "konig, könig, knight, k(o)nigt" . Or something which is "fast & young". Kneht, Kunec (rabbit), Kon(j)...The Turkish adaptation was "Khan" and in Saxonic sounded as "K(o)night" (Knight), because he was part of the ancient Law (justice and loyalty), and a Horse rider. (kłus or kljuse, kluse meant/means a "young horse" "baby horse", generally stands in the "neuter (neutrum) sex form". It means "k(o)luse" (kolose); "cycle", because it was born not long ago and because it "rolls", like Cats (Kot) and runs around...
    "Klyosov" surname derives from the "Kolesov", because he knows the "cycles" (history) -Kon of our people... :)



    The Slavic term for k(o)night (konyaz) was however Vitez or Vityaz, because of his abilities; to "see" (Video, Veda) an enemy and the danger and predict his moves... Princes were knights, only few of them were natural leaders, that's why they were also "holy knights" or kings. The old name for a king in Slavic territories was Volhv or Volkhv, this is also the name for a highest rank of pre-christian priests. The writers of Ukrainian and Russian Bible however thought to "keep" the original form for "3 wise men" (3 kings; Volhvs; Mages) who visited baby Jesus...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Vedun; 22-06-14 at 02:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    The root is "KN" (Kon), which also meant "a law" in old Slavic. Gon is an "instinct" (nagon; Na-Gon; "on running(instinct"). From Kon came Kan or Konyaz or Kniaz or Knez (prince); "Koningaz" in later Gothic or "konig, könig, knight, k(o)nigt" . Or something which is "fast & young". Kneht, Kunec (rabbit), Kon(j)...The Turkish adaptation was "Khan" and in Saxonic sounded as "K(o)night" (Knight), because he was part of the ancient Law (justice and loyalty), and a Horse rider. (kłus or kljuse, kluse meant/means a "young horse" "baby horse", generally stands in the "neuter (neutrum) sex form". It means "k(o)luse" (kolose); "cycle", because it was born not long ago and because it "rolls", like Cats (Kot) and runs around...
    "Klyosov" surname derives from the "Kolesov", because he knows the "cycles" (history) of our people... :)



    The Slavic term for k(o)night (konyaz) was however Vitez or Vityaz, because of his abilities; to "see" (Video, Veda) an enemy and the danger and predict his moves... Princes were knights, only few of them were natural leaders, that's why they were also "holy knights" or kings. The old name for a king in Slavic territories was Volhv or Volkhv, this is also the name for a highest rank of pre-christian priests. The writers of Ukrainian and Russian Bible however thought to "keep" the original form for "3 wise one" (3 kings; Volhvs) who visited baby Jesus...
    wow!!!I discover here the new linguistic - I'll do marvellous dreams tonight where the unique root of all the words of all the languages will be revealed to me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    wow!!!I discover here the new linguistic - I'll do marvellous dreams tonight where the unique root of all the words of all the languages will be revealed to me!
    lol, I have to say Vedun is extremely creative guy. I'm sure if he continued we could see that everything started from one proto word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    The root is "KN" (Kon), which also meant "a law" (zakon; za-Kon) or better said "cycle" (КОН); "time keeper" (an emperor, a dynasty) in old Slavic. Gon is an "instinct" (nagon; Na-Gon; "on running(instinct"). From Kon came Kan or Konyaz or Kniaz or Knez (prince); "Koningaz" in later Gothic or "konig, könig, knight, k(o)nigt" . Or something which is "fast & young". Kneht, Kunec (rabbit), Kon(j)...The Turkish adaptation was "Khan" and in Saxonic sounded as "K(o)night" (Knight), because he was part of the ancient Law (justice and loyalty), and a Horse rider. (kłus or kljuse, kluse meant/means a "young horse" "baby horse", generally stands in the "neuter (neutrum) sex form". It means "k(o)luse" (kolose); "cycle", because it was born not long ago and because it "rolls", like Cats (Kot) and runs around...
    "Klyosov" surname derives from the "Kolesov", because he knows the "cycles" (history) -Kon of our people... :)



    The Slavic term for k(o)night (konyaz) was however Vitez or Vityaz, because of his abilities; to "see" (Video, Veda) an enemy and the danger and predict his moves... Princes were knights, only few of them were natural leaders, that's why they were also "holy knights" or kings. The old name for a king in Slavic territories was Volhv or Volkhv, this is also the name for a highest rank of pre-christian priests. The writers of Ukrainian and Russian Bible however thought to "keep" the original form for "3 wise men" (3 kings; Volhvs; Mages) who visited baby Jesus...
    Are these your linguistic deductions and synthesis or you can reffer us to the book you read?

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    If people find answers (understand them through their own words(mind), then I find it enough "deductive", yes. And there is no individual book to check all the information i gave above... It comes from the observation and from reading of different books; one of them is the Bible (yes, I am seeking many information there, to "unlock" the hidden (inverted, stolen...) 'mysteries' from the past; one of them is the fact that old Slavs called "kings" as Volhvs (Mages; "great ones"). In matter of fact, one of Karantanian princes was called "Valuk"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valuk_%28duke%29 (modern interpretation of latin transmutation, transliteration of "Wallucus dux". His real name was Volkh or Volhv, which means "Druid" (Mage) and a "king"... Every king has 'saw and could predict the future, danger, describe the enemy from the distance (even if he did not see him directly with his physical eyes)... That's how the real King became to be the leader of a nation. That's why was Christianity so distant and foreign among these people. In fact was Christianity more deadly than any Gengis Khan (Kniaz) who came to save Russians (for example) from this new deadly cult which was arriving from Byzantium and Rome (that's why were also 'mongols' (the real name was Moguls (which means 'great ones' in old Greek - the word itself has no meaning in Chinese (current Mongol) languages) well accepted among Russian aristocracy...

    a little thought about the 'mythology'...
    One of many Slavic surnames was also famous "Vuk" or Volk or "wolf". It was a patrimonial name of every Volhv who achieved the status as a "protector of a village"; a Werewolf. To become a Werewolf was required a special, sacred ritual, which has roots in Shamanism...
    (perhaps you've heard or read about the story when the Witch(Viech; Vešča; Volhva, Veda Vedun; "the one who knows(sees things as a Moth (also check the Lord of the Rings story about Gandalf's transformation into a Moth (Vešča; "witch; Witcher)" or a thing called "Mothman" (Vešč; (dark) Witcher (moth - Seer) http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/bd51283fa0.jpg ) as are stories which are still part of modern western World... ) turned the prince into a frog? Actually was the story written by Grimm brothers when they were collecting tales with their trip through ex Karantanian (then already Austrian) territories... The ability of these Mages (and knights) was a special state of mind, where their body called Nav left their material body in Jav... This process can be also described as several "Astral" projections... But there were differences between them (the best description about this process is described in the Tibetan Book of the dead; as part of ancient Vedic (Shamanic) - Asian teachings...which were carried into the Egyptian "Book of the Dead" of Osiris (=Vedic Asura)...

    Current Chinese "secret service", as well as several CIA members are (still) extremelly interested into this subject... part of this teaching is also called "Remote viewing", which was generally established by Ingo Swann...
    Back to the "werewolves". So, every Volhv have had an ability to "join" (merge) his Information ("body") or Mind (Um) with the body of an animal... generally to become part of the "wolves". When he returned back he carried part of this animal "information" in a spiritual way... That's why were his Volkv descendants also called Volk or Vuk.
    (if the priest joined, combined his soul with a dying or a person who was in status of "passing away" (instead he was already physically dead, 3 - 40 days...) he become known as a "Vampir"...He came from the realm of Navi (also the name of a cemetery, the place of the souls which are still "waiting" (or do not want to re-incarnate)...

    This is also the way how I "see" the history(time), not only through written (official) messages in Books, but to observe them between the lines...
    Last edited by Vedun; 30-06-14 at 20:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by secherbernard View Post
    Anatole Klyosov thinks that R1a spoke proto IE language and R1b spoke proto turkic language. He doesn't agree with Kurgan hypothesis. He sees that R1b migrated from east to west and that R1a migrated from west to east.

    I think that Klyosov data and chronology can be understood under the Kurgan hypothesis.
    M. Gimbutas artfully reconstructed the IE mythology, religion, and gender relations in the context of the IE's westward kurgan migrations, riding the “Lord of the gaps” to construct the most popular IE creationist story, the so called “mainstream consensus”. While whole schools of archeology discounted radiocarbon dating as too imprecise and unreliable, the new tool allowed M.Gimbutas to leapfrog into the 20th c. Only with the 21st c. technology of haplotype allele dating it became clear that archeologists confused two separate developments, a later west-to-east movement of non-Kurgan people with the earlier east-to west movement of the Kurgan people. The history of these movements, separated in time by a millennia, is yet unwritten, but it is already clear that much of M.Gimbutas interpretations will have to be disbanded, while the facts on the ground will remain solidly intact.

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    בלי עין הרע Semitic Duwa's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    M. Gimbutas artfully reconstructed the IE mythology, religion, and gender relations in the context of the IE's westward kurgan migrations, riding the “Lord of the gaps” to construct the most popular IE creationist story, the so called “mainstream consensus”. While whole schools of archeology discounted radiocarbon dating as too imprecise and unreliable, the new tool allowed M.Gimbutas to leapfrog into the 20th c. Only with the 21st c. technology of haplotype allele dating it became clear that archeologists confused two separate developments, a later west-to-east movement of non-Kurgan people with the earlier east-to west movement of the Kurgan people. The history of these movements, separated in time by a millennia, is yet unwritten, but it is already clear that much of M.Gimbutas interpretations will have to be disbanded, while the facts on the ground will remain solidly intact.
    Looks like you've been living in a cave these last 15 years. While some of what Gimbutas said about the nature of "Old [Neolithic] Europe" was romantic nonsense, her model still happens to be quite relevant nowadays (save some details, such as the Baden culture being IE for instance). There's no way around this, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Looks like you've been living in a cave these last 15 years. While some of what Gimbutas said about the nature of "Old [Neolithic] Europe" was romantic nonsense, her model still happens to be quite relevant nowadays (save some details, such as the Baden culture being IE for instance). There's no way around this, really.
    Except for the fact that she misinterpreted R1a migrations with R1b migrations. Have a nice cave.

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