Germanic settlement in the southern Balkans ? ?

[how yes no 2]

Watch out that this is a map of all I2a. The variety found in Spain, Sardinia and most of western Europe is I2a1, while in eastern Europe almost 100% is I2a2. There is therefore no connection between them.

this spread of I2a1 actually resembles the most what I would expect to see from Visigoth's imprint...
I am complete amateur here, but I can imagine that it is theoretically possible that I2a1 was carried to Iberia by Goths and Vandals.
In those times, if your tribe is moving away, you as individual do not want to stay behind... which explains why there is no I2a1 in previous settlements of Goths and Vandals in east Europe...

There are two results for I1 Serbia, and they show 5-8%.
Do you have some data for Bulgaria? Again, maps are not that reliable.

what I meant is that hotspot of I1 looked more as Bulgaria on that map...
I tend to write and post without reading, and than to read posted and edit (because in preview mode spaces between lines are lost and I need to keep adding them) ...thing is I had last night weird issue (perhaps due to different ip address) that I could not edit my post and it was invisible until approved by admin...

btw. looking at Bulgarian familytree dna project, I see only 1 I1 out of 75 samples... and one more that is just haplogroup I. to compare, there are 11 I2a2 samples (1 of them in Macedonia and 1 in Greece Macedonia)
(22 markers are E-V13, 3 G2a & 3 G, 9 are R1a (2 of them from Macedonia), 5 are R1b - M269, there is some J as well)

to conclude, you are right, hotspot of I1 is in Serbia not in Bulgaria

btw. looking at spread of I1 in Balkans

we can see that it seems to come from Germany rather than from areas around Black sea and it also shows no spread in directions of Goths movements (though the fast movements can never be seen on haplogroup maps, only the ones where settlements spread slowly)

I can imagine that it origins mostly from Gepids in Serbia and Langobards in Austria/Slovenia/west Pannonia... in fact, we know from history that in 630 Ad in Pannonia Byzantian troops found no traces of Avars, only Gepids...we also know that part of Gepids did move towards Italy... so the hotspot near north Italy may as well be Gepids too...

Then in 375 they had to submit to the Huns along with their Ostrogoth overlords, becoming the favored Hun vassals. Under their king, Ardaric, Gepid warriors joined Attila the Hun's forces in the Battle of Chalons (the "Catalaunian fields") in Gaul (451). On the eve of the main encounter between allied hordes, the Gepids and Franks met each other, the latter fighting for the Romans and the former for the Huns, and seem to have fought one another to a standstill, with 15,000 dead reported by Jordanes, the main source for the events.
Such loyalties were personal bonds among kings, and after Attila's death in 453, the Gepids and other people allied to defeat Attila's horde of would-be successors, who were dividing up the subjugated peoples like cattle, and led by Ardaric, they broke the Hunnic power in the Battle at the River Nedao in 454:
...a most remarkable spectacle, where one might see the Goths fighting with pikes, the Gepidae raging with the sword, the Rugii breaking off the spears in their own wounds, the Suevi fighting on foot, the Huns with bows, the Alani drawing up a battle-line of heavy-armed and the Heruli of light-armed warriors. (Jordanes, l.259)
After the victory they finally won a place to settle in the Carpathian Mountains.
The Gepidae by their own might won for themselves the territory of the Huns and ruled as victors over the extent of all Dacia, demanding of the Roman Empire nothing more than peace and an annual gift as a pledge of their friendly alliance. This the Emperor freely granted at the time, and to this day that race receives its customary gifts from the Roman Emperor. (Jordanes, l.262)
Not long after the battle at the Nedao the old rivalry between the Gepids and the Ostrogoths spurred up again and they were driven out of their homeland in 504 by Theodoric the Great.
They reached the zenith of their power after 537, settling in the rich area around Belgrade. For a short time, the city of Sirmium was the center of the Gepid State and the king Cunimund minted golden coins in it.[4] In 546 the Byzantine Empire allied themselves with the Lombards to expel the Gepids from this region. In 552 the Gepids suffered a disastrous defeat from Alboin in the Battle of Asfeld and were finally conquered by the Lombards in 567.
Alboin had a drinking-cup made from the skull of Cunimund, which occasioned his death later in Italy, at the hands of an assassin sent by Rosamund, Cunimond's daughter.[5]
Many Gepids followed Alboin to Italy (see Paulus Diaconus), but many remained. In 630, Theophylact Simocatta reported that the Byzantine Army entered the territory of the Avars and attacked a Gepid feast, capturing 30,000 Gepids (they met no Avars). Recent excavation by the Tisza River at Szolnok brought up a Gepid nobleman from an Avar period grave who was also wearing Turkic-Avar pieces next to the traditional Germanic clothes in which he was buried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids

Have you ever heard of Moesian Goths?
Were Ostrogoths mentioned in any other regions during their inhabitance of Moesia?

according to wikipedia, Moesogoths who origin from Ostrogths have migrated from Thrace all the way to Jutland... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesogoths

You forced me to serach for Visigoths.
This study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/ showed 3.1% I1 in Catalonia and this one http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...944b9488099473deba71c9678116122d&searchtype=a showed 8.96% of I1+I2b1 in Midi-Pyrenees (France). Much of it could be from Visigoths.

ok, that is somewhat better, but I would still expect much larger impact in Iberia... so I do think that I1 might have not really been dominant in Goths...

Btw I was inprecise when talking about Visigoths in Serbia. I had I1 as a whole in mind when I wrote that.
My opinion is that I1 in Serbia is more from Ostrogoths than Visigoths.

under assumption that I1 came with Goths, it is hard to say who contributed more Visigoths or Ostrogoths... Moesigoths were Ostrogths, but they moved away to Jutland and during Hunish conquest Visigoths settled area... on other hand Ostrogoths are said to have settled in Prevalitania (Montenegro) and we do know that not so small number of people in Serbia origin from Montenegro and east Hercegovina....

 

[Shetop]

You are right about Gepid origin for I1 in Pannonia. You should have in mind that destiny of Gepids and Ostrogoths was very similar. Actually Gepids also inhabited Black Sea region and during that period they were vassals of Greuthungi. Later both of these tribes became vassals of Huns. With most of Greuthungi emerging as Ostrogoths after the downfall of Huns.

But nor Gepids nor Langobards have ever entered Balkans, with all Langobards moving to North Italy (Lombardia got its name from them).

Route of the Ostrogoths was more or less this one:
North Poland –> Black Sea –> Pannonia –> Macedonia –> Bulgarian Moesia –> Italy with Western Balkans.

Wikipedia article explaining that Goths went to Jutland is silly.

An agreement was reached between Zeno and Theodoric, stipulating that Theodoric, if victorious, was to rule in Italy as the emperor's representative.[5] Theodoric with his people set out from Moesia in the autumn of 488, passed through Dalmatia and crossed the Julian Alps into Italy in late August 489.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic_Kingdom

I also agree that it is hard to distinguish if Macedonian and Serbian I1 is of Visigoth or Ostrogoth origin. And another good point from you is about big number of people settling Serbia from the region of Medieval Serbia. This is exactly the reason I said that Serbian I1 is mostly from Ostrogoths. But for Macedonia it could indeed be Visigoths.

 

[Shetop]

ok, that is somewhat better, but I would still expect much larger impact in Iberia... so I do think that I1 might have not really been dominant in Goths...

I think you are yet to provide better explanation for I1 origin in Macedonia (and Balkans).

You had one assumption about I1 coming with Slavs, but that would mean much higher I1 in Ukraine. And we don't have it.

 

[how yes no 2]

you are right, Gepids for sure didnot go as far south as Macedonia...
alternative explanation can be that I1 comes from Goths, or that it came with Serbs or perhaps from earlier Scordisci who did extend all the way to Sar mountain on south...

I think you are yet to provide better explanation for I1 origin in Macedonia (and Balkans).
You had one assumption about I1 coming with Slavs, but that would mean much higher I1 in Ukraine. And we don't have it.

actually this holds for Goths as they did come from Ukraine and according to those maps I1 shows fairly homogeneous spread across east Europe without expected hotspots on places where Goths lived...... confusing is that even Crimea where we know some Goths lived long after movement of others doesnot show elevated I1... and for I2b1 it does..


though we can see stream of elevated I1 going from Poland towards Black sea, which may be about early movement of Goths..

On other hand, Slavs comming to Balkan from Ukraine is an assumption...
According to Byzantium sources, Serbs came from land of white(west) Serbia or Boika... I would say that name Boika suggest land named after Celtic Boii and thus previously settled by Boii, which is nowadays Bohemia in west part of Czech republic.. in fact, there you find hotspot of I2a2, ans also set of toponyms clearly related to Serbs
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plzeň-South_District))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Domažlice_District)))

Roman authors refer to the area they invaded as Boihaemum, the earliest mention[4] being in Tacitus' Germania 28[5] (written at the end of the 1st century AD). The name appears to include the tribal name Boi- plus the Germanic element *xaim- "home" (whence Gothic haims, German Heim, English home). This Boihaemum included parts of southern Bohemia as well as parts of Bavaria (whose name also seems to derive from the tribal name Boii) and Austria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia


If Serbs did arrive to Balkan from area of Bohemia than it is quite possible that they carried some I1 with them to Balkan...

in fact in Bohemia you will find hole in spread of I1 and hotspot in spread of I2a2...
if area had same I1 as surrounding and much higher I2a2 than surrounding, than movement of much of its inhabitants to Balkan would leave hole in I1, but still enough I2a2 to create hotspot...

Bohemia was previously settled by Suebi and Boii... I1 in Bohemia likely did origin from Suebi...Serbs probably settled area from I2a2 hotspots in Ukraine, hence this area was called white (=west) Serbia ..since they settled area that was out of I2a2 spread they made hotspot of I2a2 there...as they settled inside I1 area, some previous I1 inhabitants were likely assimilated in Serbs... than dominantly I2a2 Serbs moved to Balkans together with assimilated I1 people...

 

[Yorkie]

this spread of I2a1 actually resembles the most what I would expect to see from Visigoth's imprint...
I am complete amateur here, but I can imagine that it is theoretically possible that I2a1 was carried to Iberia by Goths and Vandals.
In those times, if your tribe is moving away, you as individual do not want to stay behind... which explains why there is no I2a1 in previous settlements of Goths and Vandals in east Europe...



what I meant is that hotspot of I1 looked more as Bulgaria on that map...
I tend to write and post without reading, and than to read posted and edit (because in preview mode spaces between lines are lost and I need to keep adding them) ...thing is I had last night weird issue (perhaps due to different ip address) that I could not edit my post and it was invisible until approved by admin...

btw. looking at Bulgarian familytree dna project, I see only 1 I1 out of 75 samples... and one more that is just haplogroup I. to compare, there are 11 I2a2 samples (1 of them in Macedonia and 1 in Greece Macedonia)
(22 markers are E-V13, 3 G2a & 3 G, 9 are R1a (2 of them from Macedonia), 5 are R1b - M269, there is some J as well)

to conclude, you are right, hotspot of I1 is in Serbia not in Bulgaria

btw. looking at spread of I1 in Balkans

we can see that it seems to come from Germany rather than from areas around Black sea and it also shows no spread in directions of Goths movements (though the fast movements can never be seen on haplogroup maps, only the ones where settlements spread slowly)

I can imagine that it origins mostly from Gepids in Serbia and Langobards in Austria/Slovenia/west Pannonia... in fact, we know from history that in 630 Ad in Pannonia Byzantian troops found no traces of Avars, only Gepids...we also know that part of Gepids did move towards Italy... so the hotspot near north Italy may as well be Gepids too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids



according to wikipedia, Moesogoths who origin from Ostrogths have migrated from Thrace all the way to Jutland... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesogoths


ok, that is somewhat better, but I would still expect much larger impact in Iberia... so I do think that I1 might have not really been dominant in Goths...



under assumption that I1 came with Goths, it is hard to say who contributed more Visigoths or Ostrogoths... Moesigoths were Ostrogths, but they moved away to Jutland and during Hunish conquest Visigoths settled area... on other hand Ostrogoths are said to have settled in Prevalitania (Montenegro) and we do know that not so small number of people in Serbia origin from Montenegro and east Hercegovina....

I definately do not see M26 I2a1 as having been brought to Iberia by Visigoths and Vandals. The evidence from Ken Nordtvedt's calculations at least is that I2a1 was founded in Iberia many centuries prior to the Germanic incursions of the Vandals and Visigoths.

I2a1 is ancient and its presence in Britain and Ireland, for example, has been dated to the earliest, post-LGM period. Indeed, it is a candidate for the earliest clade to hit British shores.

The Vandals and Visigoths would be more likely carriers of I1, I2b1, some R1b, maybe a little R1a1 and perhaps just a dash of the German-founded I2a2b. M26 I2a1 had been in Iberia for a long, long time when the Germanic tribes came.

 

[how yes no 2]

I definately do not see M26 I2a1 as having been brought to Iberia by Visigoths and Vandals. The evidence from Ken Nordtvedt's calculations at least is that I2a1 was founded in Iberia many centuries prior to the Germanic incursions of the Vandals and Visigoths.
I2a1 is ancient and its presence in Britain and Ireland, for example, has been dated to the earliest, post-LGM period. Indeed, it is a candidate for the earliest clade to hit British shores.
The Vandals and Visigoths would be more likely carriers of I1, I2b1, some R1b, maybe a little R1a1 and perhaps just a dash of the German-founded I2a2b. M26 I2a1 had been in Iberia for a long, long time when the Germanic tribes came.

yes, but confusing part is that I1 is not really significant in those areas of Iberia that were settled by Vandals and Visigoths while I2a1 is. I2a1 fits very nice with expected spread of Visigoths in Spain, and also with spread of Vandals in Andalusia, north Africa and Sardinia... so, I wondered how sure can we be that I2a1 is indeed (only) ancient in Iberia...

 

[Shetop]

Bohemia was previously settled by Suebi and Boii... I1 in Bohemia likely did origin from Suebi...Serbs probably settled area from I2a2 hotspots in Ukraine, hence this area was called white (=west) Serbia ..since they settled area that was out of I2a2 spread they made hotspot of I2a2 there...as they settled inside I1 area, some previous I1 inhabitants were likely assimilated in Serbs... than dominantly I2a2 Serbs moved to Balkans together with assimilated I1 people...

What about I1 in Macedonia?
If that is the region from which I1 came, than R1b-U106 would have to be found in Macedonia. And there isn't any.

 

[Yorkie]

yes, but confusing part is that I1 is not really significant in those areas of Iberia that were settled by Vandals and Visigoths while I2a1 is. I2a1 fits very nice with expected spread of Visigoths in Spain, and also with spread of Vandals in Andalusia, north Africa and Sardinia... so, I wondered how sure can we be that I2a1 is indeed (only) ancient in Iberia...

I am just basing my judgement on Nordvedt's dating. I have to agree with you that there is not much I1 in Iberia per se, never mind those parts supposedly settled by Vandals etc. I can also see how this M26 I2a1 'fits' neatly with Visigothic and Vandal incursions, but dare I say it..my view is that this is a coincidence. There is some supporting evidence from Oppenheimer that I2a1 is ancient too. I think it was founded in Iberia thousands of years before any Vandal went to Spain. Besides, I cannot think of how it got to Germanic lands from Iberia. There is no evidence that I personally know of that suggests that M26 I2a1 was founded anywhere else but Iberia.

As you know, I am open to persuasion. This world of genetics seems to shift like the sands...

 

[how yes no 2]

What about I1 in Macedonia?
If that is the region from which I1 came, than R1b-U106 would have to be found in Macedonia. And there isn't any.

btw. looking at its spread I think R1b - U106 is not particularly strong in Bohemia and around it... I do wonder how much of R1b in Serbia is U106..

Macedonia was not initially settled by Serbs who came from west Serbia (Bohemia)... those were other Slavic (and non-Slavic) tribes..

Keramisians were tribal group that came from Pannonia and had lot of Germanic people...

Khan Kuber (or Kouver) was a Bulgar leader, brother of Khan Asparukh and member of the Dulo clan, who according to the Miracles of St Demetrius, in the 670s was the leader of a mixed Christian population of Bulgars, ‘Romans’, Slavs and Germanic people[1] that had been transferred to the Srem region in Pannonia by the Avars 60 years earlier[2][3]. The Miracles of St Demetrius states that, circa 680 AD, Kuber had a falling out with the Avar khagan, and after repelling an Avar attack, led his followers of around 70,000 people,[4] from Srem and to Macedonia (modern Republic of Macedonia). The Byzantines initially called his people Sermisianoi (after their former settlement - Sirmium), and later the Keramisians (after their new place: the Keramissian plain in Greater Macedonia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuber

btw. on figure showing south Slavic tribes you can see that there are Serb tribes in area of Raska and Hercegovina and Moravians in most of Serbia proper... this also points out that white Serbia was Bohemia as Bohemia is just west of Moravia, same as Serb tribes on Balkan are just west of Moravians...

Bohemia is hilly part, Moravia is around river Morava,,,
Raska and Hercegovina is hilly part, Moravians are around river Morava...

 

[Shetop]

btw. looking at its spread I think R1b - U106 is not particularly strong in Bohemia and around it... I do wonder how much of R1b in Serbia is U106..

Macedonia was not initially settled by Serbs who came from west Serbia (Bohemia)... those were other Slavic (and non-Slavic) tribes..

Keramisians were tribal group that came from Pannonia and had lot of Germanic people...

According to Myres at al R1b has 10% frequency in Serbia.
R1b-U106 particularly is 2%.

If Keramisian Germanic people came from Pannonia, where from did they come to Pannonia?

 

[how yes no 2]

According to Myres at al R1b has 10% frequency in Serbia.
R1b-U106 particularly is 2%.

If Keramisian Germanic people came from Pannonia, where from did they come to Pannonia?

They came from Srem area led by kan Kuber...
among them were Romans (romanized previous inhabitants likely originating from Scordisci), Bulgars, Slavs, and Germanic people (likely Gepids)

they were not tribe but mix of people from various origin fleeing from revenge of Avars,,, Germanic part were likely Gepids...


according to http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo
there is 4.5% of R1b in Serbia

the wikipedia data and research you mention that gives 10% R1b are based on

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/ppmc/articles/PMC2799514/

which is based on data from work of Croatian lady Marijana Pericic

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.long

difference is that in http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo data is obtained from significantly larger number of samples (179 instead of 113), and also without scientists from Croatia leading the sampling (so there was for example no invention of mystic K* haplogroup for Serbs)...
so I am inclined to trust more those results...

results of sampling depends widely on sample size and randomness of sample taken...
so, we can expect R1b percentage to be between 5% and 10% likely closer to 5% (as much larger sample size gave 4.5%)

 

[Shetop]

They came from Srem area led by kan Kuber...

Looks like you misunderstood me. I meant where were they before they came to Pannonia?

And this is the data I was talking about: Myres et al 2010

 

[how yes no 2]

Looks like you misunderstood me. I meant where were they before they came to Pannonia?

And this is the data I was talking about: Myres et al 2010

he didnot do the sampling, he used data from work of Pericic... you can see that by checking number given in column called references... and verifying that number is 8, and that bellow the table under number 8 is reference to work of Pericic


what do you mean where were they before?
Gepids and romanized people were in Panonia before Avars
Bulgars came during the times of Avars
and Slavs probably were there both in Pannonia of Gepids and Pannonia of Avars...
do not forget that I link Pannonians from pre-Hunic times to proto-Slavic folk...

this is where Gepids first appear in history
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/300/entity_15159.html

it is quite far from R1b-U106 spread

and the teritory was previously part of Dacia ( http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_15233.html ), which in fact gives some credibility to idea that there might be more than linguistic relation between self-identity tribal name of Germans - Deutsch and identity of more eastern Dacian tribes..

 

[Shetop]

do not forget that I link Pannonians from pre-Hunic times to proto-Slavic folk...

Than we have a major disagreement which could prolong to a much bigger discussion.

I think I'll retire here. We have both made enough arguments for the others to make their own judgements.

Pozdrav do sledece diskusije!

 

[LeBrok]

I can't find a map that shows only I2a2 in Europe, and especially Iberia. I have to put my theory to the rest, lol. Help anyone, please.

 

[Shetop]

I can't find a map that shows only I2a2 in Europe, and especially Iberia. I have to put my theory to the rest, lol. Help anyone, please.

This one is fine for me:

 

[how yes no 2]

this is where Gepids first appear in history
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/300/entity_15159.html
and the teritory was previously part of Dacia ( http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_15233.html ), which in fact gives some credibility to idea that there might be more than linguistic relation between self-identity tribal name of Germans - Deutsch and identity of more eastern Dacian tribes..

in fact, as east of Deutsch people are Goths
east of Dacians are Getae
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_15233.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_8877.html

Shetop, can this be coincidence?

 

[Shetop]

in fact, as east of Deutsch people are Goths
east of Dacians are Getae
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_15233.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_8877.html
Shetop, can this be coincidence?

I think I ones told you what I think about those "word games".

This way you could try proving that Serbs are from Siberia.

 

[Shetop]

Here are the Visigoths!

Iberian Y-DNA

14.3% of I1+I2b1 for Castile!

But also around 10% of I1+I2b1 for some other Spanish cities. I don't understand why haven't anyone taken this into account so far???

 

[how yes no 2]

Here are the Visigoths!
Iberian Y-DNA
14.3% of I1+I2b1 for Castile!
But also around 10% of I1+I2b1 for some other Spanish cities. I don't understand why haven't anyone taken this into account so far???

yes, good work!
this looks more like it...

numbe__area___I*(xI2a1)__I2a1___R1a__G______Germanic tribe
1___Seville_______9.7_____2.6____0.6___4.0____Vandali Hasdingi, Visigoths, Vikings? (no, too little R1a)
2___Huelva_______9.2_____— _____--___--_____Vandali Hasdingi, Visigoths
3___Cadiz________3.6_____10.7____--___--_____Vandali Hasdingi, Visigoths
4___Cordoba______11.0____3.7____--____--_____Vandali Hasdingi, Visigoths
5___Malaga _______—______—_____7.7___3.8____Vikings? (no, as there is no I)
6 __N. Portugal___3.7 _____1.8____ --____7.3____Suebi
7___Leon________1.7______1.7____6.7___6.7____Vandali Silingi, Vikings? (maybe, but R1a is much bigger than I)
8___Galicia________—______ —____--____--____Vandali Silingi
9___Cantabria ____4.3______1.4___4.3____8.6___Vikings
10__Valencia_____9.7_______3.2___3.2____--____Visigoths, Vikings
11__Castile______14.3______19.0___--____--____Visigoths
12__Basques a____4.4______4.4____--
13__Catalans b____6.2______—_____--____--____Visigoths

Btw. now I believe that I2a1 doesnot come from Vandals and Goths