Germanic settlement in the southern Balkans ? ?

Eldritch said:
I have a simpler and more reasonable explanation, Saxon Miners during middle ages.
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i don't buy it...
we speak of 5% of population that has I1d1
and no I1d1 sample exists in Saxony in yfamilytreedna database...
 
gyms said:
Maybe I1d1,I1d3a is Finnish and com to Balkan with Bulgars and Hungarians like I2a-Din.
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I'm I1d1 (L22+ P109+) tested by FTDNA. No, it is not Finnish.
 
how yes no 3 said:
you are joking, right?

i1d1 map shows no samples in hungary and Bulgaria and only one on coasts of Finland...
and i2a-din has nothing to do with Hungarians and original Bulgars...

i2a-din south is in fact typical for Serb settled areas and shows few islands in rest of Europe that are probably linked to prior locations of Serbs (as we can be sure is the case for the hotspot in Bohemia due to historic data and Srb related place names in that area)
Map?Look at the Finland,Hungarian,Hungarian-Bukovina,Gagauz FTDNA Project and you will see plenty of I1d and I2a.I Think I2a is of Khazar origin.
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what if most of these "germanic" traces are Illyrian or Thracian? They spoke an IE language coming from somewhere north. That would explain why it is all over the balkans. Here is some linguistic backup, (I was too lazy to go further than the letter D); the format is "albanian - english - old norse":

pjek - bake - baka
kullote (bald field) - bald - kollottr
laj - bath - laug
beteje - battle - bardagi
ndyr - beast - dyr
blete - bee - by
filli - first - fyrsta
ja - beside - hja
ikje - betray - svikja
midis - between - midli
matan - beyond - utan
madh, mall - big - mikill
buce - bi*ch- bikkja
erret- black blar - svartr
prisht - break - bresta
fund - end - enda
ngre - build - gorr
bren - burn - brenna
ble, kap - buy - kaupa
kotele - cat - kottr
i mir (good) - chief - hilmir
roba - clothes - ript
hajte - come to - hitta
urdha - command - bjoda
shok - company - sjot
fshehen - hide - verstecken
fitoj - conquer - vinna
agon - dawn - daga, dagan
dita - dawn - dagr
dekur - dead - daudr
vdekur - dead - feigr
dashur - dear - dyrr
fte - declare - kveda
vone - delay - dvol
jo - deny - synja
prite (stop it) - deny - preta
rrena (lie) - deprive of - rena
dreka(lunch) - drink - drekka
 
gyms said:
Hur vet du det?(How do you know that?)
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No, it is 'Scandinavian' and with less extent 'Northern-Western European'.

My haplotype (I-M253, P-109 mutation), has a high peak in Norway. But it is found in good numbers in throughout Scandinavia. Obviously, it can be found in Finland as well, but I doubt that it has relevance in numbers like the others I1 mutations existing there.


WzLy9Uo.jpg

WzLy9Uo.gif
 
Tack Balder.Haplogroup frequency and diversity says litle or nothing about the origins.The most relevante is the variance.There is a possibility that Sami spread I1d to Norway.
 
gyms said:
Tack Balder.Haplogroup frequency and diversity says litle or nothing about the origins.The most relevante is the variance.There is a possibility that Sami spread I1d to Norway.
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No, it is not Sami. It is derived of I1d (L22+) which mutation originated in Denmark.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I1d/default.aspx?section=results

i1d-l22.jpg





In relation to the I1d1 (L22+ P109) mutation. It is found in good numbers in Denmark as well. It represents 20% of all I1 present in Denmark. Obviously, Sweden and Norway have more of it.
http://danishdemes.org/YDNA-results-HgI1.html
http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNPmatrix-HgI1.html
 
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Balder said:
No, it is not Sami it is derived of I1d1 L22+ which mutation originated in Denmark. I1d1 (L22 + P109 +) is also found in good numbers in Denmark as well.
"...wich mutation originated in Danmark."
Is there any aDNA evidence for that?
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"Taking the L22+ sector tree as a whole, I think a geographical division is forming as well. Z74+ DYS522 = 12 portion of the tree tends to be richer in northern Scandinavian origins, while Z74- DYS522 portion of the tree has a bigger frequency in the British Isles and in region of continental Europe south of the Baltic and North Seas."(Kenneth Nordtvedt,25 Mar.2013)
 
gyms said:
"...wich mutation originated in Danmark."
Is there any aDNA evidence for that?
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Well, ask it to the professor Ken Nordtvedt. It was he who through calculations came to conclusion of the origin and date of each clade of I1.

Index of origin: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/
His method: http://www.jogg.info/42/files/nordtvedt.pdf

And his facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ken-Nordtvedt/139695579381679 :grin:


gyms said:
"Taking the L22+ sector tree as a whole, I think a geographical division is forming as well. Z74+ DYS522 = 12 portion of the tree tends to be richer in northern Scandinavian origins, while Z74- DYS522 portion of the tree has a bigger frequency in the British Isles and in region of continental Europe south of the Baltic and North Seas."(Kenneth Nordtvedt,25 Mar.2013)
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No, no and no! You are confusing everything here.

Nordtvedt is simply referring the Z74 mutation of L22+. It's a Northern Scandinavian and Finnish branch of I-M253 L22+ aka ( I1d3* L22+ Z74). Look at the last chart by Lapinski I have posted:

WzLy9Uo.gif
 
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Balder said:
Well, ask it to the professor Ken Nordtvedt. It was he who through calculations came to conclusion of the origin and date of each clade of I1.

UPDATE15: Latest Haplogroup I1 SNP Phylo Tree including Geno 2.0 Data Here is the latest tree with some of the SNPs that have been found within Haplogroup I1. The SNPs shown in red are the new tentative ones that have recently been found in some Geno 2.0 samples:
y-Haplogroup_I1_SNP_Tree-v33.png

At this stage the CTS2208 could also include CTS2208, CTS5476. Similarly, Z133 could also include Z133, Z134. And Z74 could also include Z74, Z75. And CTS1679 could include CTS1679, CTS743. And CTS9352 could include CTS9352, CTS9477. And CTS9875 could include CTS9875, F2711. And Z138 includes Z138,Z139. And Z140 includes Z140,Z141. Etc. Other novel, but apparently phyloequivalent Geno 2.0 SNP's are not shown.

Terry, January 2013, and March 2013
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gyms said:
Hur vet du det?(How do you know that?)
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Also, it needs to be added here. At the new classification of 2013 according to ISOGG and FTDNA. The old I1d1 (L-22 P109+) clade is now the (ISOGG: I1a2a) P109, (following the current ISOGG proposal characterised by polymorphisms L22 and P109).

Since these definitions of (I1* and derived) nomenclatures are changing too often. I prefer the generic term I-M253-L22/P109 to be quite honest.


http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=39157351
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
I1-tree.gif
 
iapodos said:
...Other candidate could be Transylvanian Saxon which came on Balkan in medieval times as miners and were quite numerous around mining points. A lot of places in Serbia, Bosnia have names Sasi, Sasina, Sase which remind on them. It is well known fact that they were later incorporated in local Slavic nations....In the Srebrenica region for example the mine of Sase translates directly to Saxon in the South Slavic languages of the region. Many of the regions Bosniaks are the direct descendents of these very same miners who settled into the region between the 12th and 15th century."...
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Iapodos, this makes the most sense to me... excellent find. I predict the autosomal findings will match this idea.

And on a side note, the FTDNA and International codes slightly differ and seem to be in a constant state of flux... can I make a request that we use SNP numbering on further thread comments? The alphabet soup is getting difficult to follow.
 
nordicwarbler said:
Iapodos, this makes the most sense to me... excellent find. I predict the autosomal findings will match this idea.

And on a side note, the FTDNA and International codes slightly differ and seem to be in a constant state of flux... can I make a request that we use SNP numbering on further thread comments? The alphabet soup is getting difficult to follow.
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Wich subclade/subclades of I1 are present on Balkan peninsula?
 
kamani said:
what if most of these "germanic" traces are Illyrian or Thracian? They spoke an IE language coming from somewhere north. That would explain why it is all over the balkans. Here is some linguistic backup, (I was too lazy to go further than the letter D); the format is "albanian - english - old norse":

pjek - bake - baka
kullote (bald field) - bald - kollottr
laj - bath - laug
beteje - battle - bardagi
ndyr - beast - dyr
blete - bee - by
filli - first - fyrsta
ja - beside - hja
ikje - betray - svikja
midis - between - midli
matan - beyond - utan
madh, mall - big - mikill
buce - bi*ch- bikkja
erret- black blar - svartr
prisht - break - bresta
fund - end - enda
ngre - build - gorr
bren - burn - brenna
ble, kap - buy - kaupa
kotele - cat - kottr
i mir (good) - chief - hilmir
roba - clothes - ript
hajte - come to - hitta
urdha - command - bjoda
shok - company - sjot
fshehen - hide - verstecken
fitoj - conquer - vinna
agon - dawn - daga, dagan
dita - dawn - dagr
dekur - dead - daudr
vdekur - dead - feigr
dashur - dear - dyrr
fte - declare - kveda
vone - delay - dvol
jo - deny - synja
prite (stop it) - deny - preta
rrena (lie) - deprive of - rena
dreka(lunch) - drink - drekka
Click to expand...

If i understand well, after Albanian being mother of Greek, Basquez,Latin Celtic, now they are also mother language of Norge, right?
 
Yetos said:
If i understand well, after Albanian being mother of Greek, Basquez,Latin Celtic, now they are also mother language of Norge, right?
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not really, all I said is that there is an old nordic substratum in albanian.
 
kamani said:
not really, but there is no point giving further explanations to you.
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Interesting comparison.

Well when the Indo-European spread northward, the first speakers of it were the former Baltic tribes of what is now Lithuania, Latvia and part of Northern Poland. They were the older speakers of Indo Europeans in northern Europe. The Proto-Germanic 'people'/and first Germanic speakers possibly took and learned it from them. But also, there are other theories coming from Proto-Celts from the South.

Also, as we all know, the Germanic languages are a sub-branch of the Indo-European language family spoken by Germanic peoples. However, many elements of the common Germanic vocabulary and syntactical forms, close to 30% of it, have not an Indo-European origin. Just ancient, a part of their substrate from past cultures of the region.

Just take a a look at the Germanic substrate hypothesis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis


You should compare it (the Albanian) with the Litas. Lithuanian is the most archaic and "pure" among all the Indo-European languages spoken today.
http://www.lituanus.org/1969/69_3_02.htm
 
my friend Kamani
you put in this thread a lot of old norse and albaina words:
they contain a mixt of possibly (rare) common words not pan-PIE, some common PIE cognates (don't prove anything at this level of theory) and a lot of words that are not common, at any stage of IE... be carefull and don't be victim of superficial and incomplete similarities, phonetical or by spelling -

Balder, I think that a version of an archaïc I-E languages was old enough yet in N-Germany, before becoming germanic by some processus or being overwhelmed by already well formed and foreign germanic language - proto baltic (satem) could very have been older there than this (I suppose centum) language but i'm not sure that the germanic language is the direct descendant of this proto-baltic, whatever the complexity of the germanic "gestation" _ some interactions yes, common origin, no - concerning Celts, I think they have been an influence upon this germanic, but I'm not so sure celtic had never been the material which become the germanic, the basic material could better have been the ancient NW I-E (archaïc) - this doesn't exclude the possibility of a very ancient community at the famous archaïc stage, before we could speak about baltic or celtic or germanic or ... before stameziation too: but this community I think was broken down in central-eastern Europe, I suppose -
 
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