What do you think about this map?

[Sirius2b]

Mzungu mchagga

Term Mitteleurope is neutral, it is same as Central Europe.

And there's no reason to think you're wrong because you put the map.

This is the "Abstract" of an academic paper on a reputed magazine of Geography, and it (like I) claims that "Mitteleuropa" IS NOT NEUTRAL...

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Fantasies of Mitte: Mittellage and mitteleuropa
in German geographical discussion in the 19th and 20th centuries

References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.


Hans-Dietrich Schultz

Lilienthalstrasse 18, D 1000 Berlin 61, West Germany

Available online 13 July 2002.

Abstract

Lately, German intellectuals have once again begun making reference to geographical constants. This is by no means innocuous, for the key terms in this discussion—Germany's Mittellage (central position) and Mitteleuropa (Central Europe)—are lodged in historical memory as representatives of Germany's striving for power and hegemony, a goal of German foreign policy since Wilhelminian imperialism until as late as 1945. A look at the history of geography shows that this reference to geographical constants is impermissible. Mittellage and Mitteleuropa, also, were not employed in a politically neutral manner. Using the Mittellage concept, Germany was given a special role in Europe which, in accordance with historical circumstances, could assume a defensive or offensive aspect. Mitteleuropa was originally a broad tract of land extending from the French Atlantic coast to the Black Sea or Ural Mountains, separating Nonhern and Southern Europe. With the founding of the German Reich (1871), the Mitteleuropa concept, too, became a political character. Consequently, the German striving for hegemony acquired the aspect of scientifically founded necessity. After 1945, instead of critical approach to the misuse of Mittellage and Mitteleuropa, geographers lamented that once again Germany had become a victim of its Mittellage.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...87f58c8e4bf0635b976177a1710e7b51&searchtype=a

 

[Sirius2b]

And finally, if it is not evident, the best prove of where does a "Mitteleuropa" mentality leads, is precisely the document of Peter Jordan about his "Cultural division of Europe"... in which 80, 90% of the effort, is put in defining "the center"...

The other are just pieces around, and "who cares" where they fit, or what profound history / culture they really have!!!

It is not that, that made some other Europeans, not Germans, in this thread to initially critisize this map? :useless:

Regards.

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

@Sirius2b

Oh, Hitler was such a monster, that killed 6 million Jews... we are so repented... but, hey, why have we didn't killed 50 or 100 million Russians, instead of only 20? The world will be far nicer today...

Oh, the Nazis then were so "menschenverachtend"... but, hey, couldn't the Israelies and Amis just nuke those Palestineans, Lebanese and Iranian "Islamofaschisten" so the Middle East finds finally some peace?.

Ah, we are so proud of our "Holocaustleugnung" and anti-hate Laws... but, hey, these Turks "Kulturbereicherer" destroy everything that is decent in Germany... What could we made of them ( fertilizer or soap? ).

Honestly, I don't know in what kind of forums you log in to... This statement is not even close to what can be called 'conservative', but Nazi-like through and through. And still I don't find the similarity between the statement of this guy and anything you wrote previously, of which you think you might get banned in a German forum. But as you already said you don't wish to start a discussion on that, I'm leaving it here!

For the rest, I can tell you that you know more about German history than most Germans do! My estimation is that at least about 95% of all Germans don't connect the term "Mitteleuropa" with German intentions of the 19th century. To tell you the truth, until a few years ago even I didn't know about that connection! It was from then on that I realized the term was never used in politics, but only in every day life to describe the centre of Europe. So what is your suggestion to it? Should "Mitteleuropa" be replaced by some other term like "Zentraleuropa", or should the word "middle" or "central" as such should be dissolved in geography because of it's discriminating aspect?

Take a look on this map:


This map shows the botanic regions of Europe. Do you think this illustration is a little discriminating against all flowers and trees that are outside of the Central European region, implying they are outside of the centre of attraction? Should we better rename this region as "In-between-Atlantic-Continental-Boreal-Mediterranean-Region" or simply "Empty Region"?

One thing I've learned not only in this thread, but also in the whole forum, is how intensly geographic directions are connected to very sensitive psychological aspects:

-the more West, the better! West is associated with progress, innovation and sophistication.

-some people from the South seem to fear being mistaken as poor and underdeveloped when only connected to the term "South", while some Northern Europeans insist on some Southern features so not to be taken as uneasy and unrelaxed

-and now even Center seems to become a problem, as it could imply everything outside of it is of less importance and the Center as such too arbitrary.

My own conclusion for myself is that I'll try to avoid any discussion and mentioning of the four points of the compass (+centre) from now on, as it could hurt anyones feelings... :innocent:

Terms like Atlantic, Mediterranean, Scandinavian, Alpine etc... seem to fit better!

regards

 

[Reinaert]

Haha.. In any country there are some fascist and bigotry lunatics that post in forums.
Nowadays there are more Nazi's in the USA then there were ever in Germany.

 

[Sirius2b]

@Sirius2b

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For the rest, I can tell you that you know more about German history than most Germans do! My estimation is that at least about 95% of all Germans don't connect the term "Mitteleuropa" with German intentions of the 19th century. To tell you the truth, until a few years ago even I didn't know about that connection! It was from then on that I realized the term was never used in politics, but only in every day life to describe the centre of Europe. So what is your suggestion to it? Should "Mitteleuropa" be replaced by some other term like "Zentraleuropa", or should the word "middle" or "central" as such should be dissolved in geography because of it's discriminating aspect?

I think that all the names could be right... it could be "Mitteleuropa" or "Mizzispasdasgildtlia"... What is important are the ideas that exist behind the concept.

You say that 95% of nowadays average Germans ignore the former use of this word... probably.

But, the intellectuals, and specially Geographers? I don't know.

This map shows the botanic regions of Europe. Do you think this illustration is a little discriminating against all flowers and trees that are outside of the Central European region, implying they are outside of the centre of attraction? Should we better rename this region as "In-between-Atlantic-Continental-Boreal-Mediterranean-Region" or simply "Empty Region"?

That map is perfectly innocuous... it portrays physical-biological Geography, no cultural-political.

Then I have not problem in granting, that "Mitteleuropa" could be used in an innocuous form... when it is not accompanied by the very specific theories that were used before.

-the more West, the better! West is associated with progress, innovation and sophistication.

Yes. You saw the scandal some users in this thread because the map put them in South-Europe, and not South-Western-Europe (the ideal for them, would be "Western" alone).

some people from the South seem to fear being mistaken as poor and underdeveloped when only connected to the term "South", while some Northern Europeans insist on some Southern features so not to be taken as uneasy and unrelaxed

It is nice to see that someone could say that for once.

In reality, I believe that "South" have many positive connotations, just as "North" has.

Unfortunatelly is not a prevailing view, specially in people not enough informed or educated.

and now even Center seems to become a problem, as it could imply everything outside of it is of less importance and the Center as such too arbitrary.

I don't believe that naming or not namig have some tremendous impact on reality.

My own conclusion for myself is that I'll try to avoid any discussion and mentioning of the four points of the compass (+centre) from now on, as it could hurt anyones feelings... :innocent:

Terms like Atlantic, Mediterranean, Scandinavian, Alpine etc... seem to fit better!

regards

Again: "Center" is a neutral term. "Mitteleuropa" is only a negative concept, when acompanied by a negative theory behind it. If you have stated, that you will not use "Mitteleuropa" from a point of view of some theorics, then is a proper name.

But that's just my point of view.

Regards.

 

[Carlitos]

The aberrant map where the West German wikipedia stops in France itself that could reflect what would be accused of southern Europe, southern association equal to underdevelopment and West development, so maybe that forced map shows that this belief would be more in those who have made the map not just in southern Europe. Not exactly the vision I have in the central or northern Europe on the world, but a country like Spain which has received different cultures over the millennia has been pouring into the world, has no idea about the world parochial or upwind only her surroundings, so that Spain feels the West, is in southern Europe?, yes also, as it is in the northern hemisphere of the planet, we are not going to consent is that a map made by someone who has not left his house to do a cross-section in the Pyrenees left Spain out of the West, however rich he may be there and by lot to see only associate Spain and to Spain and South, that agreement is in Southern Europe, but from the West conquered half the world, not from a gambling den or summer of Torremolinos on the Costa Brava, if not from the West, means development, poverty, ingnomina, greatness, hate anger, love, whatever it is that West means that Spain is in the West.

I love to wear as well as severe with the creator of this map embarrassing.

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

@Sirius2b

To resume my thoughts about everything said:

I realized (after posting this map here!) that this map wasn't as neutral as I expected at the beginning. After reading all the comments plus StAGN's essay I do admit that a strong German nationalistic idea was behind that creation. How high the degree of that nationalism is, whether it was rather unawareness or already intended National-Socialist world-views, I can't tell.

Still, I do believe that the term "Mitteleuropa" is used in a neutral way among average German citizens, simply because they don't know about the emergence of that term [And to tell you, people posting in historic or political forums are not representative spot-checks of the average population]. For the average German citizen "Mitteleuropa" is nothing more than Germany, Austria and Switzerland. If that is chauvinist or normal nationalism to place only German speaking territory into the centre of Europe -I don't know that either... it is how we were taught and unreflectedly took it over. However, I doubt that the usage of this term could give a dangerous rise in nationalism, as it has already been used in Germany for the last decades without any further relevance.

 

[Riccardo]

Italians: totally South European if we have to make imaginary borders, no doubt about that!

But I think that they don't have so much sense!