The alleged Arab invasion of Spain.

[Vallicanus]

You are right they never held the entire peninsula...they just held 90%.

Exactly right.

Don't you just love this revisionist historical nonsense.
:annoyed:

 

[Regulus]

You are right they never held the entire peninsula...they just held 90%. Come on homie...a lot of spaniards look just the same as arabians. By the way we do not account as white people. We're anglos...you aren't.

Straight history - they had control of maybe 90% for a VERY SHORT period. Like I wrote, by the end of the 11th century the Christian Kingdoms were in control of about half and they kept advancing until the little piece of Granada was left for the last two or three hundred years.

Who is this "we"? No one thinks that the Iberians are not white. They are also not Arab. Even if they were Arab, who told you that Arabs were not white?

 

[Regulus]

From a historical perspective, there is no denying that a real invasion (but not migration which is a big difference) took place. If the Berbers has not been recently converted, there may very well have never been an invasion as the Arabs had been extended pretty far at that point. The Berbers provided an addition of manpower. Iberia was ruled by dynasties and what they brought along with them.

To suggest that there was some type of super-rapid cultural diffusion would not only require turning a blind eye (I assume that ojo ciego would not translate) to what happened. Islam has been described as fighting its "way up population gradients" (quote McEvedy) in many circumstances but to my knowledge never came by a people reaching out and absorbing it across a border/frontier. That was not what occurred at all.

Iberia was a tempting target for an army which was very much based on the rapid acquisition of booty. The Visigoths, trying to exist as Arian Christian rulers of Catholic subjects, had never ingratiated themselves with the people as the Franks did after Clovis' choice of Catholicism.
They had also been involved is desultory wars with the Byzantines and had only recently kicked them out of the peninsula completely. The Visigothic Kingdom was not in a position nor may not have had the unity necessary to repel a significant assault. The Islamic rulers, being so far away from reinforcements/help, were likely less harsh than Muslim rulers in other places, especially after the Umayyads were left ruling Iberia and nothing else following the establishment of the Abbasid caliphate. (And the murder of most of their family) After they caliphate here fell apart into warring emirates, they still had no reason to make the Christian states in the north look attractive to their subjects. They probably did not have the manpower to suppress any potential peasants revolt.

They did bring learning and culture to Iberia, although aside from Algebra very much of it was gleaned from ancient Greeks and Persians. This environment was not pulled in by the people of Iberia. The magnitude of the invasions may very well have been overstated, but lets remember that this forum is about history, not changing history.

I apologize for the re-post. I just felt that some middle ground needed to be reestablished at this juncture.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

You're wrong boy and you have to learn about your country.The arabians were in your land around 800 years...that's a fact.

When did you drop out of school, third grade?

The large majority of phenotypes in Iberia are Atlantid or Atlanto-Mediterranean, not "Arabic". Autosomal DNA (full ancestry) testing on Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) indicates overwhelming southern and northern European affinities. Iberians cluster genetically with the French and N. Italians primarily.

Are you so clueless to think that by spewing infantile lies and distortions about Iberia you are actually going to change the reality of the situation? :useless: You are in serious need of help, "boy".

 

[Wilhelm]

You are right they never held the entire peninsula...they just held 90%. Come on homie...a lot of spaniards look just the same as arabians. By the way we do not account as white people. We're anglos...you aren't.

First : You are not an anglo, you are a mexican. You wish you were an anglo
Second : Having 90% of the control of Iberia has nothing to do with demographics, it was a military rule, the moors were always a tiny minority. The fact that a territory is under Muslim rule, doesn't mean there were lots of moors living there : It was only a territory given to them by military orders, nothing more. A few soldiers and that's about it, though they never really managed to control the North. Having a territory under their rule doesn't equal being large in numbers. Third, most of the controlled part of the half north of Iberia lasted less than 200 years. Only the very south, in Granada, lasted 781 years. Fourth, they ended up expelled. As for looking arabian, well that's just part of your inferiority complex that you need to call us arabs to feel better about yourself. These are andalusians :

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Actually, the Celtic and Germanic (Visigoths, Suevi, Vandals, Asding-Vandals) migrations were far more important than some other influences on Iberian demographics. These form a large part of the Iberian Peninsula's genetic substratum. The Celtic migrations were very large and the Germanic ones significant. Also, most important, they were major migrations of people, not simply conquering armies. Big difference.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

More deep south Iberians. These are Algarvians, neighbors to the Andalusians. Oh yeah, they look like real Arabs, don't they. Zoom the shot.

 

[hangman]

Inanna Academician Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 52 ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by mariana Welcome Iulius Eugenius. I have a question: Why a lot of spaniards deny the conquest made by the moors? Where did you hear that? I'm Spanish too and I've never listened any spanish denying the conquest!!! I guess you didn't explain good yourself or I'm missunderstanding... What exactly you think we deny? ________________________________________ beati hispani, qvibus vivere bibere est. Country: Spain gaius valerius Historian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,458 ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by mariana For the sake of argument: I hear into spanish forums that spaniards are celtics and deny their Arabic heredity. I've touched this issue last time you brought it up (in conquest of spain): namely that both statements are wrong. The Celts were invaders just like the Visigoths and never even spread across the entire peninsula. Moreover the Arabs could have hardly have left a substantial genetic imprint on Iberia since A) it wasn't conquered by Arabs B) ... well, that's all actually Not conquered by Arabs you say? What blasphemy? No no, it was conquered by armies led by Arabs but not composed out of an Arab majority. The bulk of the invading forces were Berbers, converts from the Maghreb which form one genetical group with the original inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula (even before the Celts came). Of course the Arabs that settled might have left a genetical trace, but it can hardly be substantial since they'd never ventured their in large enough numbers. Or are you talking culture? Are these two fellows mexican trolls? Gimme a break...boy...and get a life. You'll never be a white...you are a moor...face it.

 

[Regulus]

I suspect that this character is actually pulling a prank with all of his assertions. At this point, I would hazard to guess that he has no intention of ever being part of the forum nor adding anything intelligent or even of moderate value.

 

[hangman]

I suspect that this character is actually pulling a prank with all of his assertions. At this point, I would hazard to guess that he has no intention of ever being part of the forum nor adding anything intelligent or even of moderate value.

What's your point homie? I've told the truth and I believe all of you spaniards aren't white or celts. I'm not a rscist but I think the truth always pop up.

 

[Regulus]

What's your point homie? I've told the truth and I believe all of you spaniards aren't white or celts. I'm not a rscist but I think the truth always pop up.

To illustrate my point above, note the use of terms such as homie' and 'boy'. This is not even a point of credibility. Both of these words are not indicative of someone who is even trying to be serious. They are not even your run-of-the-mill type foul language that we see too often lately. He makes the appearance of coming on like gangbusters, being the judge as to whether or not those from Iberia are white. Now apparently I too am a Spaniard.

I would recommend not even responding to this person. I get the picture that he has two of his friends looking over his shoulder giggling when he types his posts.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

What's your point homie? I've told the truth and I believe all of you spaniards aren't white or celts. I'm not a rscist but I think the truth always pop up.

The truth!? You wouldn't know the truth if it hit you over the head.
BTW, go back to school and learn how to write properly. Pathetic...

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

To illustrate my point above, note the use of terms such as homie' and 'boy'. This is not even a point of credibility. Both of these words are not indicative of someone who is even trying to be serious. They are not even your run-of-the-mill type foul language that we see too often lately. He makes the appearance of coming on like gangbusters, being the judge as to whether or not those from Iberia are white. Now apparently I too am a Spaniard.

I would recommend not even responding to this person. I get the picture that he has two of his friends looking over his shoulder giggling when he types his posts.

Probably some callow youth with an inferiority complex, and (very) small of brain.

 

[Regulus]

Probably some callow youth with an inferiority complex, and (very) small of brain.

Agreed. The entire thing was bizarre.

 

[Reinaert]

Hmm .. This kind of language brings you further into the debate lads?

 

[hangman]

Well just check this out: Inanna Academician Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 52 Obviously anyone here deny the conquest of Spain or the impact that the moors and arabs has in Spanish's culture and identity. Deny that would be deny monuments like the Alhambra and a lot of spanish words and names (like "almohada" (pillow), "albañil" (building worker), or Madrid itself). What was denied for a long was the mix beetween Spanish and moors, also the good conviviality beetween them, saying that the Spanish middle age was all about getting back the lands they conquered. That's not true, we know they marry beetwen them, deal and be good neighbours... when it suited to the both of them. http://www.historum.com/european-history/3123-about-spain-3.html#post459746 Has this spaniard guy inferiority complex? is he an empty-headed? Keep your hair on hispanics.

 

[Wilhelm]

Well just check this out: Inanna Academician Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 52 Obviously anyone here deny the conquest of Spain or the impact that the moors and arabs has in Spanish's culture and identity. Deny that would be deny monuments like the Alhambra and a lot of spanish words and names (like "almohada" (pillow), "albañil" (building worker), or Madrid itself). What was denied for a long was the mix beetween Spanish and moors, also the good conviviality beetween them, saying that the Spanish middle age was all about getting back the lands they conquered. That's not true, we know they marry beetwen them, deal and be good neighbours... when it suited to the both of them. http://www.historum.com/european-history/3123-about-spain-3.html#post459746 Has this spaniard guy inferiority complex? is he an empty-headed? Keep your hair on hispanics.

Arabic words make only 3% of the vocabulary. Plus, one-third of spaniards have other native tongue other than spanish (catalan, basque, etc). As for the moorish mix, the genetic studies prove that their influence has been minimal.

 

[hangman]

Sure...but that moor...is a mexican troll? And What do you think about this "...we know they marry beetwen them, deal and be good neighbours... when it suited to the both of them..." A spaniard who's saying that.

 

[Drac]

Inanna Academician Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 52 ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by mariana Welcome Iulius Eugenius. I have a question: Why a lot of spaniards deny the conquest made by the moors? Where did you hear that? I'm Spanish too and I've never listened any spanish denying the conquest!!! I guess you didn't explain good yourself or I'm missunderstanding... What exactly you think we deny? ________________________________________ beati hispani, qvibus vivere bibere est. Country: Spain gaius valerius Historian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,458 ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by mariana For the sake of argument: I hear into spanish forums that spaniards are celtics and deny their Arabic heredity. I've touched this issue last time you brought it up (in conquest of spain): namely that both statements are wrong. The Celts were invaders just like the Visigoths and never even spread across the entire peninsula. Moreover the Arabs could have hardly have left a substantial genetic imprint on Iberia since A) it wasn't conquered by Arabs B) ... well, that's all actually Not conquered by Arabs you say? What blasphemy? No no, it was conquered by armies led by Arabs but not composed out of an Arab majority. The bulk of the invading forces were Berbers, converts from the Maghreb which form one genetical group with the original inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula (even before the Celts came). Of course the Arabs that settled might have left a genetical trace, but it can hardly be substantial since they'd never ventured their in large enough numbers. Or are you talking culture? Are these two fellows mexican trolls? Gimme a break...boy...and get a life. You'll never be a white...you are a moor...face it.

Since one of your so-called "sources" (the user making the absurd initial claim) goes by a name like "Mariana", it is perfectly possible that she is

And if Spaniards are "Moors" for being in contact with an invading minority, then so are Britons (and also the Italians who brought those North African, Syrian and Anatolian troops and emperors to Britain.)

 

[Drac]

Sure...but that moor...is a mexican troll? And What do you think about this "...we know they marry beetwen them, deal and be good neighbours... when it suited to the both of them..." A spaniard who's saying that.

Apparently you seem to think that being from a particular country makes you ipso facto an expert on its history. Nope, I'm afraid that ignorance and incorrect notions abound among the natives of all countries.