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Thread: Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    the possibility that came from egypt
    is at time 5500 but little strange sea, means by land,

    or at 3500 BC in peloponese not crete and make the Pyramid so high that can be seen by sea,

    or at 1800 BC via sicilly to illyria,
    the epidamnians mentioned that after illyros a nation came from sicily with cyclops
    but in illyria before christianity they knew and show the tube of illyros and the draco, of hes fathers,
    now why not today?????? churches know

    drago is a knife as serpent that has only the leader of a clan-familly
    dragon was the oligarchy law at athenes
    dragon was a god of philistine
    and draco is the tomb of a drago or a clan

    we can find drago and draco even in moesia and romania.
    also in minor asia ionia lydia even to lycaonia ....
    draco later named kulla from turkish kalle


    a small chance is that an extra E came at sicily at about 1000 AD and via george maniakis and normands from durress-dyrachium-epidamnus pass even to thessalonike
    and revolt against Con/polis
    That is story of anna komnene and michael attaleiates
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Comnena
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Attaleiates
    but i find it impossible that a small part from an ex big army to be so big as millions today.
    as i find impossible that did not have all the types of north africa E,
    so the last approach is just to be mentioned and not to be consider as correct

    so we go back to 1800 or at 3500 or at 5500,
    i strongly believe the 3500 BC as the correct
    via south peloponese were built a pyramid at top of a mountain (3600-3000 BC) so as to be seen by the sea

    why not crete,
    cause godess Athena is godess Neith and Tanit, and in crete minoans never worshipe her a lot
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith

    and athena was a western islands godess which later pass to athenes

    the possibilty if years are correct that illyros was born at about 2000 BC almost before theba walls was build or before, after cadmeia was built, blablah 4 hours i was writting and missed

    besides it was the minoans who went to egypt and build avaris

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avaris

    i m not a genetist but a mt DNA could help us more,
    if someone knows the origin and expansion of mtDNA in balkans, maybe can give more light
    iapetoc
    According Cruciani et al, 2007 a possible time of arrival E carriers to the Balkans is between 4000 and 4700 year ago. It is 2000 to 2700 years BC.

    Peloponnese is possible territory where they settled.

    But, if they came by land then it is difficult to have first settled in the Peloponnese, then the version with the sea routes makes sense.

    E holders as stated in the literature and sites likely to come from Upper Egypt.



    1) E carriers in the Balkans maybe have Chushitic roots.

    We see the Kush in the map.

    The Albanian word Kush is Who.

    And for example, Ila is Chushitic word that means eye. Are the words Ila and Ilir, Illyrian can be linked, it is not known.


    2) We can certainly try to link the Balkan E carriers with ancestors Copts but this may be the good but may be the wrong track.

    It would be interesting to us what Dian can says for the Italian Arbresh, what he investigated about the connection between Coptic and Albanian.

    We don't know whether we can say that the Copts in general are E carriers. So far as can be found in the literature are low percentages of E haplogroup among the Copts. Also, they do not speak the Coptic language today, Arabic only.


    3) The similarity of the Albanian words with Berber can point to the third link beside Cushitic and Coptic.

    Berber languages are very dynamic and they changed so at the main Afroasian roots were influences from other group of languages, in good part from Nilo-Saharan.

    If you look at the Upper Egypt and North Sudan has more Nilo-Saharan languages that would be interesting to study in comparison with the Albanian.


    It is believed that the Nilo-Saharan languages originated in the region of the Sahara, you can look spreading the Berber Tamashek languages (Tuareg Berbers), where I gave examples of comparing words of one of the branch, called Tamasheq, with Albanian.

    Researchings haplogroups in Sudan confirmed that among the speakers of Nilo Saharan languages are high percentages of haplogroup E-M78, which one of subclade is E-V13.

    In this sense, it would probably be gone from the researching of similarity the Albanian with Nubian languages.

    iapetoc
    Perhaps Mes that you are referring comes from Maahes?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maahes

    If so then it would be possible that the original Albanian comes from the Nilo Saharan languages and not Afroasian but of course needs a lot of research, that would enable to prove or disprove the assumptions.


    My opinion is that roots of Albanian are rather Afroasian than Nilo Saharan, but in Upper Egypt there are also Nilo Saharan languages so that it is the valuable research and comparisons.


    Coptic language has almost disappeared, in the Egypt can no longer speak, and personally I think that Albanians are not descendants of Copts, we see that in Egypt live many people, and what was the situation at the time when E carriers migrate from Africa to Europe can just imagine.

    Another major problem is the northern Cushitic languages and Nilo Saharan still are not standardized, which are mostly spoken, and are not in schools.


    On the Internet, and literature, we can hardly find anything about languages that we are most interested.

    Therefore, Berber languages is the most affordable and most accessible for research because Berbers have successed to maintain their languages despite all the influences that have received.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    right...whole world is invented ...
    How yes no,
    Please, do not get me wrong, but this topic is very complex and requires much researchs and reading, so that any diversion from it loses focus, I can only ask you to stick to theme, and since you are very analytical and very well versed, you can give this issue full contribution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Macedonians have that name for several centuries at least, and probably much more than you can stand it...
    Proof? because I can prove that they were bulgarians before WW2. There were macedonian dynasties during the eastern roman empire (Byzantine), like Basil the second, which fought and won against who they call their ansestors, czar samuel ect.

    In all reality, this dispute isn't about what they call themselves, it's the territorial claims they make based on their imagined community. This is why Greece doesn't mind they use the term 'macedonia', as long as the is a prefix, like northern, Upper, New Macedonia ect, which distinuishes itself from the greek Macedonia. Bulgaria feels the same way and back greece on this.

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    According Cruciani et al, 2007 a possible time of arrival E carriers to the Balkans is between 4000 and 4700 year ago. It is 2000 to 2700 years BC.

    the connection with libya is also an inderesting approach,
    but was done by cretan archologists in 1970 and fall cause minoan seems to invade libya before phoenician, the similarity of cities and buildings, is more between lebanon crete and upper egypt,
    now about the approach of cruciani et al maybe i m wrong or maybe they but we have almost near 3000,
    that connects with different architecture on megalithic, and the age of megalithic structures,
    now the connection with the lions worshipers is probably theory cause lions were greeks cities wηere even mycaene

    the photo is big so open it
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae

    but i dont know the time the corrent,
    Nubia was known as Kush, or, in Classical Greek usage, included under the name Ethiopia.




    hmmm its a good idea
    also that goddes bastia is similar to Greek goddes Estia for me lady of fire
    but to artemis according herodotus,
    although i dont find big similarity to artemis, only in people myths and bad signs
    and both virgins.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast_%28goddess%29

    about that garick
    My opinion is that roots of Albanian are rather Afroasian than Nilo Saharan, but in Upper Egypt there are also Nilo Saharan languages so that it is the valuable research and comparisons.

    i belive that if Dian finds the book he says

    Giuseppe Catapano, "Thot Parlava Albanese" Bardi Editore, Roma 1984!

    then we have enough and we can find similarities with Greek wich also has Big E-V13

    about the approach by sea or by land i find it little difficult by land and not leave small traces of E-V13
    exept in case that they were a few at that time and fast move, they should have left a tribe with 25% E-V13 in the road,
    That is why i believe that E came by sea,
    either from cyprus to Aegean sea, east or west coach,
    or from north africa to sicily to aimos peninsula,
    or straght to peloponese
    besides the first approach in cyclades civilization leads us to admit that sailing was founded before 4000 BC

    about that garrick

    And for example, Ila is Chushitic word that means eye. Are the words Ila and Ilir, Illyrian can be linked, it is not known.

    hmmmm

    according epidamnians
    with illyrus was a son of cyclopes, cycllopes have 1 eye, probably the 1 eye of ra
    above head
    or the eye of Horus
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye_of_Horus.svg

    to some scientists the megalithic structures are name cyclopeians, cyclops made them,
    to hommer cyclops lived in sicily,
    according to them cyclopes invade and stayed in illyria,

    But i m missing the eye symbol, have you ever seen an eye symbol in balkans?

    sometimes i really wonder why Alexander went to oasis of siwa
    Last edited by iapetoc; 20-01-11 at 02:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    How yes no,
    Please, do not get me wrong, but this topic is very complex and requires much researchs and reading, so that any diversion from it loses focus, I can only ask you to stick to theme, and since you are very analytical and very well versed, you can give this issue full contribution.
    ok, regarding the theme, I think you are somewhat on wrong clue....
    Albanians are cluster with Serb/Croats/central Ukraine Romania/east and west Hungary (thus Hungary before Magyars arrived), and only together they cluster with Berbers... this indicates that not only Albanians but Serbs as well are related to Berbers

    language of Berbers might have been heavily influenced by I2a1 that might have been same ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia.. so, you would do better if you focus on words shared between Serbian and Berber language...though once you find them you will not be sure whether they are due to I2a1 or due to haplogroup E (as this one is in Serbs up to 20%)

    look at Berber people in northwest Africa



    and compare to this map of I2a (area in north Africa is I2a1)



    I2a1 does correlate with Berbers fairly well.... note that map might be somewhat ad-hoc regarding north Africa as there is probably no precise data for vast areas...


    as for Lybia, if it is related to Lydia, this is again potential issue with I2a as Lydia was largely matching I2a spread.... I am not sure but I think split between I2a1 and I2a2 is closer in time than E-V13 i E haplogroups of northwest Africa...I do wonder about genetics of Berber speaking Siwi people (see map above)


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    how yes no
    that I2 probably has to do went vandals invade tynisia, the sarasenes etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    ok, regarding the theme, I think you are somewhat on wrong clue....
    Albanians are cluster with Serb/Croats/central Ukraine Romania/east and west Hungary (thus Hungary before Magyars arrived), and only together they cluster with Berbers... this indicates that not only Albanians but Serbs as well are related to Berbers

    language of Berbers might have been heavily influenced by I2a1 that might have been same ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia.. so, you would do better if you focus on words shared between Serbian and Berber language...though once you find them you will not be sure whether they are due to I2a1 or due to haplogroup E (as this one is in Serbs up to 20%)

    look at Berber people in northwest Africa



    and compare to this map of I2a (area in north Africa is I2a1)



    I2a1 does correlate with Berbers fairly well.... note that map might be somewhat ad-hoc regarding north Africa as there is probably no precise data for vast areas...


    as for Lybia, if it is related to Lydia, this is again potential issue with I2a as Lydia was largely matching I2a spread.... I am not sure but I think split between I2a1 and I2a2 is closer in time than E-V13 i E haplogroups of northwest Africa...I do wonder about genetics of Berber speaking Siwi people (see map above)
    How yes no
    Interesting observation, and there can be many attempts to point to a connection.

    However, in Africa, Slavic languages, including Serbian, are totally foreign, it means no indications of anything in the African languages have found which would have some connection with the Slavic. Simply the connection African languages with Slavic does not exist.

    Of course the other thing is the question the theory that there was once I language, which is logical because I was one clan. But as the Serbs used to speak some of today's Slavic languages the old I language spoken by Serbs was replaced.

    I have reviewed dozens of Afrasian languages, mostly Berbers and Cushitic languages and also watched some Nilo Saharan languages, and the words similar (or same) as Albanian found everywhere, in everyone of them, and in Nubian (Nilo Saharan), but with current knowledge, I might have the most researched Cushitic languages, but researchers should explore other languages to reach the right conclusions

    What is the problem? These northern Cushitic languages are generally not maintained, if they existed. There are northern Cushitic languages in Egypt but they are not standardized and I can not find a valid sources. One interesting language, Blin people in Eritrea (Cushitic but no Nothern Cushitic), has for example, on a small sample that I saw words similar with the Albanian. But still I would like to see some north Cushitic languages, so that I could draw some firmer conclusions. Otherwise so far I could put hundreds of words from Afrasian and NiloSaharan language similar Albanian.

    What is interesting. Many Afrasian languages, no matter how are far, have the words that are similar, and these words are also similar with the appropriate Albanian words, and it is unlikely that the roots of words as long survive despite all the changes, distance, other cultures have since received and so on. Africa is a miracle. Lots of interesting. It is a completely different world and way of thinking in relation to Europe. I was never in Africa and here now I got the desire to sometimes go.

    Iapetoc clarified and addressed a lot of issues. Just amazing when he discovered that the root meaning of Shqiptar can be the Egyptian, congratulations on analytics. Albanians are the most likely roots in Upper Egypt, and it is iteresting for them to go there to see what cultures were once from which they originated. In more Cushitic language word or Il, Ili or similar means eye. It is very possible that Illyrian comes from the Cushitic word that would be a strong argument about possible connection between Albanians and Kushites.

    So I can say reviewing dozens of African languages, and some Afrasian Nilo-Saharan that Albanian has similar or the same words from those languages. Slavic languages have a totally different way of thinking and logic and words from a root word compared to African languages. Thus there is no connection between Berbers and Slavic languages, including Serbian.

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    Garrick

    i said i don't see the eye,

    propably illy has to do with the greek Ell -Ill

    El-las means the stones of Ell
    Ill-yri I dont know,
    but i believe that Ell and Ill means the same,

    that is why i believe that E came at 3500 BC or you sugeest 2700 BC
    Ell and Ill has to do with middle east i quess
    the Ell is something even today searchers try to find what means,
    and the only explanation comes from syria, EL means the high, the top of the mountain, and the jews, El Santai powerfull god
    El Ellion the high god, the top god
    El-las means the gods of the stones (or the stones of the gods) or the people who live on the top of the rocks
    I believe Ill means the same

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    how yes no
    that I2 probably has to do went vandals invade tynisia, the sarasenes etc
    that is what I used to think as well
    (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...305#post361305)
    but than I heard some arguments that it is much earlier spread...issue that I2a1 it is not found at all in areas of east Germany and Poland (where Vandals approximately lived) makes origin of Vandals very questionable....
    another argument that got me was that I couldnot see correlation between spread of Vandals and map showing I2a (which is I2a1 in Iberia) hotspots in Iberia
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25689
    third argument that convinced me was that name of Sardinia fits very well in what I see as haplogroup I tribal name pattern (Swedes, Suebi, Serbs, Sarbans (Pashtun people with haplogroup I), Sardinians...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Garrick

    i said i don't see the eye,

    propably illy has to do with the greek Ell -Ill

    El-las means the stones of Ell
    Ill-yri I dont know,
    but i believe that Ell and Ill means the same,

    that is why i believe that E came at 3500 BC or you sugeest 2700 BC
    Ell and Ill has to do with middle east i quess
    the Ell is something even today searchers try to find what means,
    and the only explanation comes from syria, EL means the high, the top of the mountain, and the jews, El Santai powerfull god
    El Ellion the high god, the top god
    El-las means the gods of the stones (or the stones of the gods) or the people who live on the top of the rocks
    I believe Ill means the same
    iapetoc
    There are plenty of things that link.The eye and Horus are linked and this is something that is useful to know.

    We can read:

    www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-eye-of-horus-meaning.html
    http://www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-god-horus.html





    Wedjat or the 'eye of Horus' is an Egyptian symbol associated with the age-old battle between Set and Horus. According to mythology, they refused to relent and every move made by either one culminated in a new set of challenges. It was believed that Horus and Set finally challenged one another to a stone-boat race. However, in this particular race, Horus had an edge, since his boat was actually made of wood, but disguised to resemble stone. Set's boat sank and Horus won the race. Legend has it that Set officially handed over the throne of Egypt to the victor. This myth culminates in the unification of upper and lower Egypt.

    We can see:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus

    The eye is personified in the goddess Wadjet (also written as Wedjat,[1][2][3]Uadjet, Wedjoyet, Edjo or Uto[4] and as The Eye of Ra[5] or "Udjat"[6]).

    ...

    “There are seven different hieroglyphs used to represent the eye, most commonly 'ir.t' in Egyptian, which also has the meaning 'to make or do' or 'one who does.'[4] In Egyptian myth the eye was not the passive organ of sight but more an agent of action, protection or wrath.”

    So it's not just some eye but all of these meanings, however, and Horus who is important.

    Horus is very old myth.

    http://www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-god-horus.html

    Ancient Egyptian myths and religion centered around a pantheon of gods and goddesses. Horus is not only one of the oldest gods in the Egyptian pantheon, but also one of the most significant deities. The religion has its roots in the Predynastic period and dates back to the Greco-Roman era.

    This is very important to know that the roots of Horus are in the Predynastic period, and if we accept arriving E carriers in Europe, as advocated Cruciani et al, 2007 and this is 2000 to 2700 years BC, this means that the ancestors of Albanians knew very well for Horus.

    Now we will see something else:

    http://egypttourinfo.com/ancient-egypt-blog_files/ancient_egyptian_god_horus.html


    Horus is a God of Ancient Egypt, once known as Heru or Har, but later referred to by his popular Greek translation. Horus was a God of power, and the Eye of Horus came to symbolize that quality.

    This is important for us to know that the Egyptians called him.
    ...

    Because Horus was God of the sky, he had in subjection to him the sun and the moon. Thus it was believed that the sun was one of his eyes and the moon his other. The injury of Horus at the hands of Set explains why the moon is weaker than the sun in giving off light.

    When Horus was victorious he became known as Harsiesis or Horus the Elder. Horus may have lost his eye, but Set got the far worse end of the deal, himself losing a testicle. This explains why the desert (which Set represented along with storms and chaos) became infertile.



    This is useful to determine:

    www.sangraal.com/library/eyesofhorus.htm

    Horus as now conceived is a mixture of the original deities known as "Horus the Child" and "Horus the Elder". As the Child, Horus is the son of Osiris and Isis, who, upon reaching adulthood, becomes known as Her-nedj-tef-ef ("Horus, Avenger of His Father") by avenging his father's death, by defeating and casting out his evil Set. As Horus the Elder, he was also the patron deity of Upper Egypt from the earliest times; initially, viewed as the twin brother of Set , the patron of Lower Egypt, but he became the conqueror of Set.

    Here we can see that Horus was the patron deity of Upper Egypt, and it is teritory where they come from E carriers in the Balkans.

    It is interesting that Albanian has words probably derived from ancient Egyptian:

    times (eng.), herë (alb.), Heru or Har (anc. eg.)


    loom (eng.), vegjë (alb.) Wadjet, Wedjat (and similar) (anc. eg.)gj (alb.) = dj

    This Arbresh knew why he compared the Egyptian (Coptic today is derived from ancient Egyptian) words with Albanian, the country of origin is Egypt, and it is possible that:


    1) we can rely on the assessment Cruciani et al on getting E carriers to the Balkans, about 2000 to 2700 years BC

    2) Trombetta et al after rigorous scientific testing brought up a theory that E carriers in the Balkans arrived by sea

    3) In Cushitic languages Il, Ila or Ili, that means the eye, is associated with old Deity Horus in Upper Egypt as well as meaning “to make” or “to do”. Maybe E carriers when they came to the Balkans are still cultivated the cult of Horus and may still used the word Ili or similar for the eye and therefore are called humans of eye (cult), ie. Iliryans, or a reason is connected with it, but if you find in Greek texts something about Cyclops might be and this could explain, since Cyclops has one eye, or may be something more for link.

    I would not easily let go of connection with today's Cushitic word, and symbols of the eye, Horus of Egypt, the word Iliryan and meaning of “to make” but if you do not find the connection this will be treated as a hypothesis that we failed to prove, still it does not mean that hypotesis is not correct.

    OK, may be you're right that connection with eye don't exist, we continue with the new discoveries going deeper into Africa, Egypt, Balkan, in the past and present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    How yes no
    Interesting observation, and there can be many attempts to point to a connection.

    However, in Africa, Slavic languages, including Serbian, are totally foreign, it means no indications of anything in the African languages have found which would have some connection with the Slavic. Simply the connection African languages with Slavic does not exist.
    are you sure?
    if I look at list of 7 common Afro-Asiatic cognates given on wikipedia I can imediatelly recognize 3 of them in Serbian

    Some Afroasiatic cognates are:
    *b-n- 'build' (Ehret: *bĭn), attested in Chadic, Semitic (*bny), Cushitic (*mĭn/*măn 'house'), Berber (*bn) and Omotic (Dime bin- 'build, create').
    *m-t 'die' (Ehret: *maaw), attested in Chadic (for example, Hausa mutu), Egyptian (mwt *muwt, mt, Coptic mu), Berber (mmet, pr. immut), Semitic (*mwt), and Cushitic (Proto-Somali *umaaw/*-am-w(t)- 'die'). Also Mot, Canaanite god of death.
    *s-n 'know', attested in Chadic (for example, Hausa san), Berber, Egyptian and Semitic (Hebrew š-n-n 'learn, study').
    *l-s 'tongue' (Ehret: *lis' 'to lick'), attested in Semitic (*lasaan/lisaan 'tongue'), Egyptian (ns *ls, Coptic las), Berber (ils), Chadic (for example, Hausa harshe), and possibly Omotic (Dime lits'- 'lick').
    *s-m 'name' (Ehret: *sŭm / *sĭm), attested in Semitic (*sm), Berber (ism), Chadic (for example, Hausa suna), Cushitic, and Omotic (though some see the Berber form, ism, and the Omotic form, sunts, as Semitic loanwords.) The Egyptian smi 'report, announce' offers another possible cognate.
    *d-m 'blood' (Ehret: *dîm / *dâm), attested in Berber (idammen), Semitic (*dam), and Chadic. Compare Cushitic *dîm/*dâm, 'red'.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages

    afroasiatic m-t (english die)
    serbian (u)mreti (die) mrtav (dead)

    afroasiatic s-n (know)
    serbian znati

    afroasiatic l-s (tongue)
    serbian lizati (to lick)

    3 of 7 are pretty good match

    speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you :)

    Given the diversity that exists within the Afro-Asiatic group, and the lack of common vocabulary for agricultural items, it is suggested that the languages dispersed before the commencement of the Neolithic. The finding of a common vocabulary for pottery containers, however, suggests that this technology was known.

    For example Proto-Semitic *k'ad-ah- "vessel", found in Arabic kadah "drinking bowl, cup, goblet, glass, tumbler"; Sabaean m-kdh(m,n) "cup; Ethiopic / Geez kadho "vessel, gourd", ma-kdeht "jar, jug, bucket"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'adad- "vessel, gourd; Oromo k'odaa "vessel, gourd; Egyptian qd "pot"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'od- "receptical"; Oromo k'odaa "receptacle"; West Chadic *k'wad- "calabash"; Dangla koda "pot" gives Proto-Afro-Asiatic *k'ud-/*k'od- "Vessel, pot"[8].

    Ehret [9] suggests that early Afro-Asiatic languages were involved in the domestication of Ethiopian food crops, but this is disputed by others who suggest these words were found only in the Cushitic and possibly Omotic families, and common cognates for agriculture are not present. Given that wavy line pottery is found widely in the Sahara from 8,000 BCE[10], and that the neolithic agriculture technologies arrived 5000 BCE[11], this sets a possible context for Proto-Afro-Asiatic dispersal. As it is known that the Ethiopian farmers moved into the highlands from the direction of Nubian Sudan, and attempts to translate the Meroitic script found in this area show significant Afro-Asiatic characteristics, linguist Lionel Bender suggests that this area of the Southern Nile was the centre from which the Afro-Asiatic languages dispersed[12]. The dates of pottery and agriculture set approximate early and late dates for this linguistic dispersal. Climatically this was the time of a "wet Sahara" phase with large rivers and lakes. The dispersal of Afro-Asiatic may thus have been a response to the recent operation of the "Sahara pump"[13][14].
    http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/...atic_languages

    btw. Proto-Semitic *k'ad-ah- "vessel", found in Arabic kadah "drinking bowl, cup, goblet, glass, tumbler"; Sabaean m-kdh(m,n) "cup; Ethiopic / Geez kadho "vessel, gourd", ma-kdeht "jar, jug, bucket"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'adad- "vessel, gourd; Oromo k'odaa "vessel, gourd; Egyptian qd "pot"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'od- "receptical"; Oromo k'odaa "receptacle"; West Chadic *k'wad- "calabash"; Dangla koda "pot" gives Proto-Afro-Asiatic *k'ud-/*k'od- "Vessel, pot"[8].

    Serbian kada = (bathing) tub

    by checking russian online dictionary, of those 4 cognates (out of 8 Afro-asiatic words I found) 3 are all Slavic words (not just Serbian)...

    Serbian znati (to know) Russian znati (знать)
    Serbian lizati (to lick) russian lizati (лизать)
    Serbian umreti/mrtav (to die/dead) russian umereti/mertvi (умереть/мертвый)

    however,
    Serbian kada (tub) Russian vana ( ванна)

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    are you sure?
    if I look at list of 7 common Afro-Asiatic cognates given on wikipedia I can imediatelly recognize 3 of them in Serbian

    Some Afroasiatic cognates are:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages

    afroasiatic m-t (english die)
    serbian (u)mreti (die) mrtav (dead)

    afroasiatic s-n (know)
    serbian znati

    afroasiatic l-s (tongue)
    serbian lizati (to lick)

    3 of 7 are pretty good match

    speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you :)
    Serbian is Slavic language and what you write applies to all Slavic languages.

    For example:

    to know

    Serbian: znati
    Croatian: znati
    Russian: знать (lat. znatь)
    Ukrainen: знати (lat. znati)
    Bulgarian: знам (lat. znam)

    to lick

    Serbian: lizati
    Croatian: lizati
    Russian: лизать (lat. lizatь)
    Ukrainen: лизати (lat. lizati)
    Bulgarian: лижа (lat. lizha)

    Etc.

    Slavic languages belong to one language group. Thus, the Serbian language should not be viewed in isolation, for then might turn out to all Slavic languages originate from Serbian as the least pretentious.

    If you noticed in the text of Wikipedia under the Cognates, when compared Afro-Asiatic languages each other, compare the branch of languages, rather than every individual language.

    So when it says Berber languages it is a branch within the Afro-Asiatic family such as the Slavic languages in one branch of the Indo-European family.

    You can see that linguists tried to make connections between Indo-European and Semitic languages and see the result is simply no results.

    "Hermann Möller (1906) argued for a relation between the Semitic and Indo-European languages. This proposal was accepted by some linguists (eg Holger Pedersen and Louis Hjelmslev) but has little currency today."

    Can you imagine what would be the result of comparing Slavic languages with languages which further than Semitic?


    Mean, the Albanian language is an exception because it is not classified into any group of languages, it is unique in Europe as well as Indo-European.

    Even the Albanians have investigated the connection with other, non Indo-European languages, among Albanians there are alternative theories that originate from Egypt, you have here on the subject of a book published by one Arbresh from Italy.

    And I personally knew the Albanians who claimed that the Egyptians originated.

    And Albanians themselves write about it on Albanian forums.

    And you can see that the haplogroups indicate that the most likely country of origin is the Upper Egypt.

    Because there are many paths that indicate the relationship of Albanians and Africa (ie Egypt), among them the language also, it is worth exploring.


    To someone trying to investigate that Slavic languages have roots with the Afro-Asian may be an attempt, as it does many other things may try, but objectively what he or she can expect to be achieved in that attempt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    with other[/B]
    And I personally knew the Albanians who claimed that the Egyptians originated.
    I undestood very well your intention to write about the albanians.
    The albanians who claim to originate from Egypt are a minority of Roms.
    Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20238122
    It's a little strange you find relation for the albanians with every afrikan people when you find a similar word.
    Have you ever heard about Muhammad Ali of Egypt and his albanian soldiers?!!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt

    the only language he knew fluently was Albanian
    How can you be sure the words were not brought to that people from his dynasty?
    Last edited by Dian; 21-01-11 at 06:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Mean, the Albanian language is an exception because it is not classified into any group of languages, it is unique in Europe as well as Indo-European.
    The Albanian language is a distinct Indo-European language that does not belong to any other existing branch.
    I think this is the right definition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post
    .
    Here the first example:
    Ik (albanian )
    行く[iku] (japanese)
    wiki (hawainian)
    quick (english)
    Can anyone tell me, how these words are related?
    Nobody gave me an explanation about this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    In all reality, this dispute isn't about what they call themselves, it's the territorial claims they make based on their imagined community. This is why Greece doesn't mind they use the term 'macedonia', as long as the is a prefix, like northern, Upper, New Macedonia ect, which distinuishes itself from the greek Macedonia. Bulgaria feels the same way and back greece on this.
    For same logic Greece should be called New Greece, to make it distinct from ancient Greece with it's Hellenic religion, customs, warrior culture, etc. Today's Greece is in many ways a lot different than ancient one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post

    Please tell me, who is John Amos Comenius?
    John Amos Comenius (Czech: Jan Amos Komenský; Slovak: Ján Amos Komenský; German: Johann Amos Comenius; Polish: Jan Amos Komeński; Hungarian: Comenius Ámos János; Latinized: Iohannes Amos Comenius) (28 March 1592 – 4 November 1670) was a Czech teacher, educator, and writer. He was the last bishop of Unity of the Brethren, a religious refugee, and one of the earliest champions of universal education, a concept eventually set forth in his book Didactica Magna. He is often considered the father of modern education.



    We must have some distortions fitting the languages and the haplogroups with the today national identities for some populations.
    Let remember the example of hungarians ( magyar). Today they speak an uralic language, but the genetic heritage from the magyar is nearly to 10%. So they imposed their language to the local population, because they have the politic power.
    Remember, it needs only 80 years to change the language of a population!




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    Now let me share with you a short guide about the albanian language!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrf6ifyncu8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8JXJADIeNU

    Differentiation of 63 IE languages rappresented in a tree of greitlinguistic group based on the analysis of the root of 200 lexical signifiers, which are supposed to be the most preserved in all the languages examined. The numbers next to branches indicate % reliability of the construction of that particular branch. The scale located below the figure indicates the years before the present. Some languages are included 2 or 3 times, because it pertains to different dialectal variants or socio-linguistics. Eg, if I is the Gheg Albanian, Albanian II is the Toski, Albanian III is the national literary language. See Dyen, Kruskal and Black (1992), Piazza et al. Taken from the book:» Le radici prime dell'Europa: gli intrecci genetici, linguistici, storici» Di Luigi Cavalli-Sforza, Gianlucca Bocchi. Mondadori Editori, 2001.
    http://books.google.it/books?id=AVXq...page&q&f=false

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    [QUOTE=Dian;363579]
    My dear!
    Have you ever seen any paint from Paul Jovanovich ?
    I really doubt, because you would know very well the albanian national dress!!
    Some examples:
    Paul Jovanovic, "The music lesson" 1890
    Peja Jovanovic - Izdajica
    Jovanovic - Albanian Sentinel Resting
    and other from albanians serving in Egypt:
    Arnaut officers & Egyptian recruits crossing the desert

    And, a collection of albanian national dress in one video!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgL65RaihcA
    I think now nobody will do the mistake to compare albanian dress with its of the berbers!
    And, If someone thinks that fustanella in all these pictures is not albanian, let see this book:
    Handbook for travellers in Greece: including the Ionian Islands. Volume 1 By John Murray
    Last edited by Dian; 21-01-11 at 06:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    SHQIPTAR = ISH + GIPT + AR means I AM EGYPTIAN g as wh in what if g as k the coptic
    cause in byzantine egyptians even today they are called GYPT-IAN and the COPTIC KOPT-ES = COPT-ES
    then THAT APPROACH FITS TO YOU,
    MEANING THAT SHQIPTAR MEANS EGYPTIAN.
    OR ESH + GIPT + AR = FROM EGYPT ???????
    also Ash means from but only in east ionic
    because Skiptos means bowed but sgiptos means egyptian
    k as gr κ
    g as γ -wh- in what 'swhiptos'
    or the very ancient before 700 BC skif-os or skiphos wich in aeolian druopean (thessaly) means ksifos early kind of spear, the metallic nose-edge of the spear,
    cause in case that shqiptar means form egypt then we have a small lingua conection with egypt,
    but in case of shqiptar means something like the sword, then the similarity with proto-greeks is obvious
    This is one explanation!
    In our mistreated history, extirpated and transformed, we have to save that which is more valuable: Our Language.
    From her we get information from where we come, why we are called such, and which are our symbols. Thus we know well that our symbols are very ancient, they are connected with a ancient believe, with our ancient Deity(Hyjnine) Zeus. On the helmet of our Albanian leader Scanderbeg of 15 century is founded exactly the symbols of this Deity(Hyu): horns of the goat of Amaltia who fed Zeus.

    This Deity(Hy) was called: That who sends thunders from above, He from where the thunders fall.
    Thunder itself was his symbol and it was called κεραυνός which is pronounced që-raun-os.

    This is an albanian expression and in linguistics is called a subjoined word. Of course there is no need for a translation but is read: që ranë. The root of the word is ra, which in today albanian is the past of the verb fall(strike, hit) or alb bie(qelloj, godas).
    So that is the verb:when it strikes (me i ra), which gets used when
    1. Lightning Strikes(Godet(rrufeja)
    2. Lightning falls(Bie(rrufeja)
    However that is used in ''"greek"" even to describe the horn eg:
    it strikes with horns(i ra me brire)=horns are those that are used to strike and hit.

    beside qëraunos we find another word for thunder:


    this is the name of the eagle(shqipes) that sends thunder:

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    well you just show me the σκηπτ-ος, but with wrong approach
    cause hommer names skiphei and ksifei,

    σκιφος = Aeolian sword (the top metallic nose of spear)
    Ξιφος = (κσιφος) = sword to south greeks (dorian-achaic-ionian) (the top metallic nose of spear)

    as you see the skiphos and ksiphos also both named in hommer

    now σκηπτος is almost corect cause you also find it in crete ksipharia of uranus
    and ksipharia means the lighting the light that metal does when crushed, like 2 swords,
    ks and sk is due to dialect
    example athenean fagame (eat)
    makedonian Vagame(eat)
    proto greek vrosame,
    the exact meaning in σκηπτος is light, in greek strapt
    α-στραπ-η noun a-strap-e (i) lighting
    ε-στραπτ-ε virb 3 person past e-strapt-e
    thunder in Greeks is the phainomenon of 2 smaller phainomena
    1 the lightning the a-strap-i (the spark light of of skifei or ksifei)
    2 the sound the Vront-i (vront-os bront-os) the vrrr sound
    keras is the horn but also the knife and also the potery and keramos (tile)
    keraynos -keravnos is the sound of falling tiles also
    or an expression we use (bull in a glass store)
    but keravno-bol-o (κεραυνο-βολ-ω βολω=βαλω is shoot(vallistic)) means throw a tile, or a horn, hmm i guess knives??

    but the approach can be bigger if we reach the Danaus legend
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaus

    meaning that the first E-V13 inhabited Argos peloponese, etc
    besides there are many Greek Gods and words in GreeK that comes from Africa

    now about fustanella is the Greek of Pus (πους = foot) which in aeolic is fus
    πους
    ποδος τ,δ,θ -> ποδα

    λυ-ω set free
    past λελληκα lellika watch double ll
    simple past ελυα -> elia -elja -ella

    fus=fotos +elja -> fostanella-> fustanella
    lefts feet free ->free feets
    podea = a quilt that bounds or protect feet
    also today as fodea or fodra
    that protects feet

    what is this???


    Alexander wears Fustanella????

    OH MY GOD????




    The GREEK HOPLITE WEAR FUSTANELLA !!!!!

    WOW, maybe greeks were albanians?????
    or albanians are greeks?




    is this the albanian national Guards???
    or this??


    hmmm mini Fustanella???
    better to a battle

    WHO ARE THEY?
    BULGARIAN FUSTANELLA


    The famous karakacan Greeks in bulgaria wearing Fustanella!!!!!!

    oh gods roman wear Fustanella



    what is this? the byzantine 'podea' fodra in Greeks of central minor asia? cappadokia
    (means ti tight feets to bound not to loose)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlABS...eature=related


    what is this? BULGARIAN FUSTANELLA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCn3O6c3tuA

    besides there is another explanation-approach
    the arab city fustat


    they were also fustanella
    AROMANI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRpC6byO8hg

    that is worthy,
    Greeks from Pontus at the festival of momos (ancient god Comos - comedy) carnival
    immitating alexanders soldiers
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkX6t...eature=related

    the name is not fustanella but posdani
    Last edited by iapetoc; 21-01-11 at 23:23.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post
    And, If someone thinks that fustanella in all these pictures is not albanian, let see this book:
    Dian
    You gave a good example for the Egyptian roots, and the custom of wearing fustanella (kilt) can be explained as the kilt worn in Ancient Egypt thousands of years BC.

    www.kingtutshop.com/freeinfo/Ancient-Egyptian-Clothes.htm

    “The ancient Egyptians made their own clothes from what their environment and nature gave them. Egypt has mostly a hot climate thus the use of clothes reflect material that is lightweight to suit this type of climate. The ancient Egyptians thus used clothes made of linen. The ancient Egyptians both men and women wore linen clothes all throughout the hot weather. The men wore short skirts around their waists called kilts, while the women wore straight fitting dresses with straps on their shoulders. The wealthy men wore pleated kilts, and the older men wore a longer kilt. When doing hard work, men wore a loin cloth, and women wore a short skirt. Children usually ran around nude during the summer months. Linen is a fabric made from plant fibers. The plant fiber comes from flax plants that grow abundantly along the banks of the Nile. “


    Kilts were of various sizes and shapes depending on the position in society, era, etc..






    Keep in mind that not all E carriers in the Balkans the Illyrians, but the Illyrians are E carriers, so that it is not surprising if some practices are unchanged, ie. that both Albanians and may be some Greeks have similar costume which pulling long origin of the land of ancestors.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post
    I undestood very well your intention to write about the albanians.
    The albanians who claim to originate from Egypt are a minority of Roms.
    I am researcher, I have no front or rear intentions.

    In my opinion, the Albanians are the descendants of the Illyrians and Illyrians are the bearers of haplogroup E, but not all E carriers in the Balkans are the Illyrians, part of Greeks also are the holders of the E haplogroup. And it was proved that haplogroup E-V78, the E-V13 is subclade, comes from Egypt.

    It is good to get involved in the discussion because it will thus be better. You can see that for this whole group of languages from Somalia to Egypt and the Berbers, once used the name of the Hamitic languages. A Hamitic languages are consistent with the E haplogroup. For example in Russia, some authors call Illyrians Hamitic, but Russian sources I do not use because of the Russian has “jat”, it makes learning more difficult and I have no times to study.

    There are Albanian sources and authors who link Albanians and Egypt, but they are not Roma.

    If you are interested in the Internet there are the sources about of the Albanians, Egypt and Somalia as you like. For example you can see on Internet a lot people of Somalia and Egypt are excited to have relatives still in Europe. And some of these sources we can use, and detailed analysis on these sites and blogs that may be of interest. For analitic Iapetoc has more and more material.

    And so on, on this issue we can discuss till tomorrow morning, because there are countless sources. But you will be able to see, with Iapetoc I will comment on the idea of an Albanian author who claims same as Iapetoc about Illyrians, El and Ill.

    Cruciani et al 2007, based on rigorous scientific studies, found that E carriers in the Balkans appeared 2000 to 2700 BC. Assumptions that E carriers in the Balkans have come much earlier were previosly and they are dropped. Iapetoc thought it was a little earlier, ok, it can be discussed, whether and how much earlier or later, but 2000 to 2700 BC, and a little earlier or later period can be considered.

    So, under such paragraph, the part of E holders have become Greeks, somewhat assimilated into other tribes and nations and the Illyrians were the ones who preserve their characteristics originating from the ancient land upper Egypt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post

    language of Berbers might have been heavily influenced by I2a1 that might have been same ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia..

    I2a1 does correlate with Berbers fairly well....

    Ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia ???? WTF Are you saying that I M26 in western Europe (including the British island) is proto Serb ?


    I2a1 does correlate with the Berbers ?? the Berbers of Sahara and atlas or the Coastal people of North Africa that suffered numerous invasion for centuries?

    You clearly have an Haplogroup I2a obssession. Stop seeing haplogroup I and Serbian related tribes everywhere

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I2a1 does correlate with the Berbers ?? the Berbers of Sahara and atlas or the Coastal people of North Africa that suffered numerous invasion for centuries?
    spongatero
    Thanks on this clarification. In general, Slavic languages are not connected with Berber. I think that how yes no had something else in mind but I could discuss about it with him on another subject, not here, because this topic is already quite complex and we must keep the focus.

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