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Thread: Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

  1. #151
    Regular Member DejaVu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    DejaVu you are still in another world
    Dorian Invasion is also Temenus return
    it was not an invasion from north,
    but from Thessaly to Peloponese
    same time the Argeiad Makedonian invesion was done from Thessaly to Pieria-Ematheia
    and same time Lokroi Makedonians invade West Makedonia (Brygia) also From Thessaly
    Who is in another world? Time to open your fanatic view or you cant handle it? Fairytales is ok for you but not for me.

    The Dorian invasion is a concept devised by historians of Ancient Greece to explain the replacement of pre-classical dialects and traditions in southern Greece by the ones that prevailed in Classical Greece. The latter were named Dorian by the ancient Greek writers after the historical population that owned them, the Dorians.
    Greek legend asserted that the Dorians took possession of the Peloponnesus in an event called the Return of the Heracleidae. Classical scholars saw in the legend a hypothetically real event they termed the Dorian invasion. The meaning of the concept has changed several times, as historians, philologists and archaeologists used it in attempts to explain the cultural discontinuities expressed in the data of their fields. The pattern of arrival of Dorian culture on certain islands in the Mediterranean, such as Crete, is also not well elucidated. The Dorians colonised a number of sites on Crete such as Lato.
    Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.

  2. #152
    Regular Member DejaVu's Avatar
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians
    The Dorians (Greek: Δωριεῖς, Dōrieis, singular Δωριεύς, Dōrieus) were one of the four major tribes into which the Ancient Greeks of the Classical period divided themselves.
    The Dorians are almost always simply referenced as just "the Dorians", as they are in the earliest literary mention of them in Odyssey, where they already can be found inhabiting the island of Crete. Herodotus does use the word ethnos with regard to them, from which the English word ethnic derives, which appears in the modern concept of ethnic group. It has to be clarified though, that in the ancient Greek language ethnos by no means can be translated as 'nation' alone, but rather as 'tribe', 'race' or 'people'. The Dorians are clearly among the peoples regarded as Hellenes. They were diverse in way of life and social organization, varying from the populous trade center of the city of Corinth, known for its ornate style in art and architecture, to the isolationist, military state of Lacedaemon or Sparta. However, peoples belonging to the same tribe, the Dorians, as well as the Aeolians and the Ionians, were further subdivided in independent groups often hostile to each other, usually named after the location of their state.
    Last edited by DejaVu; 09-02-11 at 16:45.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albanien View Post
    Todays FYROM was originally inhabited by Ancient Albanians until the Slavic invasion. and Albanians were driven away from their land. But you still have Albanians living in Macedonia.
    Albanien
    What you spam the topic (and not only you) no matter, so you contribute its popularity.

    I nice asked all of you to write about Macedonia in appropriate topic because there are other topics about Macedonia on which you and everyone can contribute.

    But here you showing that you are not familiar enough with the world of haplogroups.

    There was no invasion of the Slavs, nor R1a is is something special expressed in the Balkans.

    Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:


    "An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

    Source:

    http://www.worldacademy.org/files/DNA_Genealogy_Part_2.pdf


    Only if you do not mean an invasion of the Slavs occurred 12,000 years ago.

    Now see the results R1a haplogroup:

    Albania, 9,8% (Semino et al)
    Albanians in Macedonia, 12,6% (Noveski et al)
    Serbia, 14,5% (Mirabal et al)
    Macedonians, 15,2% (Pericic et al), 14,2% (Noveski et al)
    Greece, 8,3% (Semino et al, Helgason et al)


    That old R1a population is fairly evenly distributed, not much more of the Serbs and Slav Macedonians compared to Albanians.

    When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense.

    South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.


    Only you can prove your "Slavic invasion" if you have some other Y-DNA sources where you can surpass Klyosov and existing Y-DNA findings.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albanien View Post
    But still, even if Albanians have Berber origin, we are talking about thousands and thousands of years
    Albanien
    If we start to put pictures, this topic can be turned into a photo album about Albanians and Berbers.









  5. #155
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenus


    In Greek mythology, Temenus (Greek: Τήμενος, Tēmenos) was a son of Aristomachus and brother of Cresphontes and Aristodemus. He was a great-great-grandson of Heracles and helped lead the fifth and final attack on Mycenae in the Peloponnese. He became King of Argos. He was the father of Ceisus, Káranos, Phalces, Agraeus, and Hyrnetho. Káranos was the first king of Macedonia and founder of the royal Macedonian dynasty, the Temenids or Argeads, which culminated in the sons of Alexander the Great five centuries later.


    This conquest of Peloponnesus by the Dorians, commonly called the "Return of the Heraclids", is represented as the recovery by the descendants of Heracles of the rightful inheritance of their hero ancestor and his sons. The Dorians followed the custom of other Greek tribes in claiming as ancestor for their ruling families one of the legendary heroes, but the traditions must not on that account be regarded as entirely mythical.


    dejavu the Makedonians came from Thessaly to west makedonia and the Argeiads from the city of Heracleia and Dion to central Makedonia

    the Argeiads were Dorians but the Makedonians were Aeolians


    That is why Alexander when kick as.. of sparta did not burn the city

    The dorians did not come out of Greece
    it was an inner movement to claim thrones - change kings
    that is why the messinians who ruled sparta became farmers, and the Arcadians who were relatives became free but not Spartans

    The dorians did not invade Greece, the dorians where ever they went they were accepted
    and mainly move to specific places that were known before only the messinians did not accept them cause

    Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.

    as you see Dejavu Hercules travel to cities like -issa, in Thessaly
    he is lost somewhere in the land of lapiths brothers of magnets
    lapiths and centars loved horses as Makedonians did
    that is why Dorians did brought IE language,

    But probably knew IE
    the Homerick Language
    The language used by Homer is an archaic version of Ionic Greek, with admixtures from certain other dialects, such as Aeolic Greek. It later served as the basis of Epic Greek, the language of epic poetry, typically in dactylic hexameter.

    land that today speak dorian is in
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language


    Garrick you are right I m not going to write any more here about that
    Last edited by iapetoc; 10-02-11 at 03:10.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenus




    dejavu the Makedonians came from Thessaly to west makedonia and the Argeiads from the city of Heracleia and Dion to central Makedonia

    the Argeiads were Dorians but the Makedonians were Aeolians


    That is why Alexander when kick as.. of sparta did not burn the city

    The dorians did not come out of Greece
    it was an inner movement to claim thrones - change kings
    that is why the messinians who ruled sparta became farmers, and the Arcadians who were relatives became free but not Spartans

    The dorians did not invade Greece, the dorians where ever they went they were accepted
    and mainly move to specific places that were known before only the messinians did not accept them cause

    Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.

    as you see Dejavu Hercules travel to cities like -issa, in Thessaly
    he is lost somewhere in the land of lapiths brothers of magnets
    lapiths and centars loved horses as Makedonians did
    that is why Dorians did brought IE language,

    But probably knew IE
    the Homerick Language
    The language used by Homer is an archaic version of Ionic Greek, with admixtures from certain other dialects, such as Aeolic Greek. It later served as the basis of Epic Greek, the language of epic poetry, typically in dactylic hexameter.

    land that today speak dorian is in
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language



    This well described. The only thing that I would recomment to Iapetoc is to stop defending your position. You have done that enough.
    The emphasis now should be on sorting the facts and specifically the dates of the southward migrations of the Slavic peoples. Once a clear picture of that is laid out, the position that ancient Macedonians were Slavic or had a major Slavic component becomes untenable by default. In others words, once it is established that Slavic tribes did not live in or near that location until roughly a thousand years later, there really is no longer any room to argue the point.

    I had wanted to start a thread specifically about the regional origins of those we could clearly identify as Slavic or proto-Slavic peoples. I keep getting tied up with ongoing projects at work and am very busy in the evenings helping my High School 9th grade son with home work and assisting of physical exercises. In addition to that, I am Vice President of our local youth baseball league and am struggling to get enough local businesses to help this year with sponsorships of our program for this spring season. Perhaps now is the time to start the thread on that topic. If you can get together enough basic information to start the thread, I would be happy to add to it with posts when I can.
    I just can’t find the time to do it myself now.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    This well described. The only thing that I would recomment to Iapetoc is to stop defending your position. You have done that enough.
    The emphasis now should be on sorting the facts and specifically the dates of the southward migrations of the Slavic peoples. Once a clear picture of that is laid out, the position that ancient Macedonians were Slavic or had a major Slavic component becomes untenable by default. In others words, once it is established that Slavic tribes did not live in or near that location until roughly a thousand years later, there really is no longer any room to argue the point.

    I had wanted to start a thread specifically about the regional origins of those we could clearly identify as Slavic or proto-Slavic peoples. I keep getting tied up with ongoing projects at work and am very busy in the evenings helping my High School 9th grade son with home work and assisting of physical exercises. In addition to that, I am Vice President of our local youth baseball league and am struggling to get enough local businesses to help this year with sponsorships of our program for this spring season. Perhaps now is the time to start the thread on that topic. If you can get together enough basic information to start the thread, I would be happy to add to it with posts when I can.
    I just can’t find the time to do it myself now.
    Regulus
    I totally agree with you that today's Slav Macedonians are not ancient Macedonians.

    In the dispute between Greece and FYROM Macedonia there is no doubt that the Greeks are right.

    ...
    But now I want something else to say.

    Read the post 365133 carefully (3 posts above).

    Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:

    "An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

    Slavic Y-DNA in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

    When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

    If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

    Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.

    Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.

    When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.

    It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.

    ...
    Today Slav Macedonians mistakenly try to present themselves to the ancient Macedonians, it is likely to issue a Doric tribe Makednoi that founded Macedonia.

    Ancient Macedonia was not occupied the border of today's FYROM Macedonia.

    Northwest of the then boundaries of the ancient Macedonia lived Illyrians.

    But northeast of then borders of the ancient Macedonia lived Paeones.

    There is a likelihood that the Paeones were one of the I tribes that lived in the Balkans, if it proves today Slav Macedonians are descedents I tribes in the Balkans and beyond, also from I tribes in the Balkans and beyond originate and today the Serbs and Bosnians.

    ...
    And I ask all participants to this forum to everything related to Macedonia write on the topic of the Macedonians, as here is another topic.

  8. #158
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    Garrick, thank you. I am able to see this agrument much more clearly. As you requested, I will continue my reply on the correct thread. What you write makes sense to me.

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    I think stupid thread, even I wonder how such a learned man like Maciamo, can be afected by such stupid threads.

    If it continue, then Eupedia, will become a stupid page like Stormfront (50% of stormfront is used to talk against Albanians).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    I think stupid thread, even I wonder how such a learned man like Maciamo, can be afected by such stupid threads.

    If it continue, then Eupedia, will become a stupid page like Stormfront (50% of stormfront is used to talk against Albanians).
    I agree that thread is somewhat pointless...

    while it is interesting to investigate linguistic connections with spread of haplogroups, that cannot be done properly by chosing two languages in isolation from other languages... to have any meaningful conclusion, words should be compared in many languages at same time...

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I agree that thread is somewhat pointless...

    while it is interesting to investigate linguistic connections with spread of haplogroups, that cannot be done properly by chosing two languages in isolation from other languages... to have any meaningful conclusion, words should be compared in many languages at same time...
    How yes no,
    I disagree because this is the right research topic and contributors are active, the topic used to we enter in the very interesting research which is reflected in the attendance the topic and very interesting and valuable articles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    How yes no,
    but it is clearly that the title of this topic used to we enter in the very interesting research which is reflected in the attendance the topic and very interesting and valuable articles.
    I have opened new thread for linguistics/genetics ties
    see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...795#post365795
    it is impossible to conclude much by only taking words that are in common in two languages and disregarding other languages... comparison of words should be done in many languages as I did for word "tower" in new thread... only than you can do grouping


    otherwise, the topics discussed here are often better fitted to "Who were and are Albanians and their DNA" thread
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26201

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I have opened new thread for linguistics/genetics ties
    see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...795#post365795
    it is impossible to conclude much by only taking words that are in common in two languages and disregarding other languages... comparison of words should be done in many languages as I did for word "tower" in new thread... only than you can do grouping


    otherwise, the topics discussed here are often better fitted to "Who were and are Albanians and their DNA" thread
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26201
    I don't agree, again.
    Just this topic prompted the right research, a lot has learned and it has great value.

    But ok, there is no subject about people can argue a bit and somewhat is a matter of taste.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    I think stupid thread, even I wonder how such a learned man like Maciamo, can be afected by such stupid threads.
    Ok. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    But just you can read forums and blogs by African and Asian countries where these and similar issues discussed widely.

    Also there are published books. One of the books that came out in 2010 is:

    Kush Khamit Raamah

    Faces of the Hamitic people

    In this book,
    between other things, author connect the Geg, Arvaniti and Chamuri Albanians as Hamites.


    Author points out that the Albanian name Cham derived from the Ham.

    The book was published in the edition Xilibris Corporation, USA.

    The cover:



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    Ok. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    Dude, we are talking about history, and history doesnt allow opinions.

    History seeks facts and no opinions.

    The opinions are like the shit, everyone has one shit, and everyone has one opinion.

    But History is wroten by facts.

    The thread is stupid, because the Ev13 is not Em78, they are distinct hplogroups, which evolved in the early prehistoric times, and no such old language can survive for such a long time.

    You are motivated by nacionalistic chauvinistic ideas against albanians. We know that there is war between albanians and slavs, but we need to stop this.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    Dude, we are talking about history, and history doesnt allow opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post

    History seeks facts and no opinions.

    The opinions are like the shit, everyone has one shit, and everyone has one opinion.

    But History is wroten by facts.

    The thread is stupid, because the Ev13 is not Em78, they are distinct hplogroups, which evolved in the early prehistoric times, and no such old language can survive for such a long time.

    You are motivated by nacionalistic chauvinistic ideas against albanians. We know that there is war between albanians and slavs, but we need to stop this.
    You want facts, you didn’t read previous pages, ok here are some facts:


    Fulvio Cruciani, Roberta La Fratta, Beniamino Trombetta, Piero Santolamazza, Daniele Sellitto,Eliane Beraud Colomb,Jean-Michel Dugoujon, Federica Crivellaro, Tamara Benincasa,Roberto Pascone, Pedro Moral, Elizabeth Watson, Bela Melegh,Guido Barbujani,Silvia Fuselli,Giuseppe Vona, Boris Zagradisnik,Guenter Assum, Radim Brdicka, Andrey I. Kozlov, Georgi D. Efremov,Alfredo Coppa,Andrea Novelletto, and Rosaria Scozzari


    Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and
    Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12

    http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

    2007

    Oxford University Press

    “By analyzing a worldwide sample of 6,501 male subjects, wehave identified 517 chromosomes belonging to haplogroup E-M78, more than twice the number found in a previous study (Cruciani et al. 2004). These chromosomes have been further analyzed for the biallelic markers M148 (Underhill et al. 2000), M224 (Underhill et al. 2001), V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32 (Cruciani et al. 2006), V36, and V65 (present study).... Four subhaplogroups were either rare(1 and 2 subjects for E-V27 and E-V19, respectively) or absent(E-M148andE-M224)in the global sample, whereas theother haplogroups/paragroups were relatively common (table1 and fig. 2).

    You can see that subhaplogroups of E-M78 are (excluding those that are very rare):

    E-V12
    E-V32
    E-V13
    E-78*
    E-V65 and
    E-V22.



    “In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a northeastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. Northeastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa.”

    You can see that Northeastern Africa is probably place of origin E-78.


    “The TMRCA of the European E-V13 chromosomes turns out to be 4.0–4.7 ky (under 2 different demographic expansion scenarios, see Subjects and Methods; 95% CI 3.5–4.6 ky and 4.1–5.3 ky, respectively).”

    You can see Cruciani et al, 2007 as a possible arrival time E carriers in the Balkans state between 4000 and 4700 year ago (between 2000 and 2700 BC).




    You can see:
    E-V13 is subclade of haplogroup E-M78,
    estimated time of origin is about 11.5 thousand years (ASD method) or about 8.7 thousand years (ρ method),
    origin is Northwestern Africa,
    E-V13 in the Balkans is between 2000 and 2700 BC.



    Marijana Peričić,Lovorka Barać Lauc,Irena Martinović Klarić,Siiri Rootsi,
    Branka Janićijević,Igor Rudan,Rifet Terzić,Ivanka Čolak,Ante Kvesić,Dan Popović, Ana Šijački,Ibrahim Behluli,Dobrivoje Ðorđević,Ljudmila Efremovska,Ðorđe D. Bajec,Branislav D. Stefanović,Richard Villems,and Pavao Rudan



    High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

    2005

    You can see the data of E haplogroup for Kosovar Albanians:

    E-M78* 1.75%
    E-V13 43.85%
    E-M81 0.90%
    E-M123 0.90%

    Total E 47.20%

    You can see that Kosovar Albanians, except E-V13 have E-M78 haplogroup observed in Egypt, E-M81 known as Berber marker and another E subclade E-M123.

    Battaglia et al (European Journal of Human genetics, 2009)

    "The presence of E-M78 * Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians), previously described only in virtually northeast Africa, upper Nile, 28, 63 gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been."



    Gianmarco Ferri, Sergio Tofanelli, Milena Alù, Luca Taglioli, Erjon Radheshi, Beatrice Corradini, Giorgio Paoli, Cristian Capelli and Giovanni Beduschi

    Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent

    www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/

    Springer

    2010

    This study revealed significant differences between Gheg and Tosk population in Albania.

    Ghegs have 41.82% E haplogroup (E-V13 41.21%).

    Tosks have 28.10% E haplogroup but you can see differences and among other haplogroups.

    Research has shown that the Ghegs are closest Egyptians of all the European populations on the other hand Toscs are closer Balkan populations.


    Very closely are placed Bosniaks, Serbs and Romanians, which is logical if one bears in mind that by Mirabal et al 2010 in Serbia I haplogroup is 48% and according Pericic et al 2005 in Bosnia I haplogroup is 53.65% (in Herzegovina the result for I is even more).


    I suppose you know when I haplogroup appeared in the Balkans.

    Kalevi Wiik

    Where Did European Men Come From?

    Journal of Genetic Genaology, 2008

    (7) About 25 kya the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sentanother branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans,and a new sub-Clan I emerged.

    You can see the ancestors of today's I carrier in the Balkans, Bosnians, Serbs and others, were in the Balkans even before 25,000 years.


    Do you think that the Bosnians, Serbs and other people that are considered truly South Slavic and where I haplogroup is dominant are realy Slavs?

    They speak Slavic language but they are not Slavs.

    You can see Slavic haplogroup R1a in Serbia is 14.5% (Mirabal et al, 2010).

    And you can see R1a among Albanians, for example in Macedonia FYROM is 12.6% (Noveski et al, 2010).

    Are you think that Bosniaks and Serbs really Slavs, Serbs have 14.5% R1a haplogroup and for 1.9% more than Albanians in Macedonia FYROM?

    What do you think when R1a came to the Balkans?

    Thousands of years before E carriers if you read Klyosov:

    “An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11,650±1,550 years bp.”


    You can compare with the estimate Cruciani et al when E came to the Balkans.



    Now that you've all heard, what you think you got the right so bad to say about all the contributors on this topic who are worth collecting data, using appropriate sources and by setting up posts.

    You call people chauvinists and the like, but they are serious researchers and you see that they are different nations.

    Nobody have right to do, if something does not know you should learn, if you have other sources put it, we can discuss, argue, all we can, but no one can insult and label, only the communists did it but the communists did not have long; fortunately.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    But History is wroten by facts..
    It seems to me that written history is only the interpretation of events by the author, it is not necessarily the facts. Anyone can write anything, it doesn't always make it true and as history is usually written by the victor (who is writing with an agenda) it can render historical accounts very suspect. History is therefore subject to opinion.

    True history should be impartial, without an agenda, not clouded by nationalistic claptrap and, unfortunately, is rare to find. But we all seek the historical fact or truth, isn't that why people have been debating and discussing history forever? It is also the reason why we enjoy it so much.

  18. #168
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    What do you think when R1a came to the Balkans?
    R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

    even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

    We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

  19. #169
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    I THOUGHT THAT BERBERS ARE OF EURASIAN ORIGIN???

    Didnt you remember?

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

    even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

    We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.
    Neander

    I presented these excellent articles from leading scientific journals in the world.

    You're not given anything just your abusive thoughts from your head and a faint attempt at propaganda without sources.

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

    even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

    We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.
    hello, stop with propaganda...
    Mongolia has dominant haplogroup C...
    R1a origins from south Siberia but not from Mongolia... Mongolia is its neigbour and probably biggest enemy in ancient history...

    we talk about R1a that is in Balkan for 11000 years
    and E-V13 that is there for 4000 years...

    it could be that R1a are Pelasgians, and E-V13 were Illyrians and later Dardanians....

    but I am not sure about Illyrians.... they might have easily been J2, R1b or even I2a2 dominant... more research is needed there...

    stop pushing idea that Albanians are indigenous and that thus Balkan belongs to them.... E-V13 is fairly recent arrival to Europe ....so, if we apply your nazi views that most recent arrivals should go away, the someone that should go away from Europe / Balkan is E-V13... keep that in mind!

    my viewpoint is that all haplogroups are equally worth and people who carry them should have right to live where they live...but if you people keep pushing idea of Albanians having more right on land in Balkans, that will eventually get back to you as nasty boomerang... as E-V13, Dardanians and even Illyrians are very recent arrival to Europe....

  22. #172
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    i presented these excellent articles from leading scientific journals in the world.
    i am sorry, there is no out of africa migration after mesolithic.

    hello, stop with propaganda...
    Mongolia has dominant haplogroup c...
    R1a origins from south siberia but not from mongolia... Mongolia is its neigbour and probably biggest enemy in ancient history...
    R1a is brother of R1b, toGether the sons of R1, it is son of R which in turn is birther of Q (amerindian-siberian haoplogroup).

    N O P Q R are monogoloid haplogroups.

  23. #173
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    I THOUGHT THAT BERBERS ARE OF EURASIAN ORIGIN???

    Didnt you remember?

    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wor...f-the-berbers/

  24. #174
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    my viewpoint is that all haplogroups are equally worth and people who carry them should have right to live where they live...but if you people keep pushing idea of Albanians having more right on land in Balkans, that will eventually get back to you as nasty boomerang... as E-V13, Dardanians and even Illyrians are very recent arrival to Europe....
    You are self-frightened, I didnt fright you. I am talking about history, and not about nazi,

    DONT use this "nazi" as a counterargument.

    You have not facts about what you said. There is no out of africa major migration after Mesolithic.

    You made propaganda, to tell us that Albanians must go out of Europe, and then acusse me for "propaganda". Please look at yourself first. You are not discusing historyu but ridiculous propaganda.

    Stupid thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

    even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

    We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,
    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post

    even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

    We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    i am sorry, there is no out of africa migration after mesolithic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post

    R1a is brother of R1b, toGether the sons of R1, it is son of R which in turn is birther of Q (amerindian-siberian haoplogroup).

    N O P Q R are monogoloid haplogroups.
    Neander
    You can not talk like that, just showing your ignorance and frustration.

    You say the work of Klyosov is bulshit!!!

    Are you aware of where is a author’s level of knowledge but where is your, if you do know what it is science, scientist, methodology, research, journal, etc. maybe you know would not have spoken.

    I say this in good faith, and scientists can read Eupedia, what can they think of these your words.


    Klyosov is a very prominent American scientist.

    If you have something to say against his work you would have to cite some other work that is opposed to his view.

    But not a blog, or the like, it is worthless, only the scientific work and recognized scientific name.


    So you can compare:


    Kalevi Wiik, Finnish scientist

    Where Did European Men Come From

    2008

    Journal of Genetic Genealogy


    According him carriers of I haplogroup came to the Balkans 25,000 years ago.



    Anatole Klyosov, American scientist

    DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome

    http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf

    2008

    Nature Precendings,

    According him carriers of R1a1 haplogroup exist in the Balkans since 11,600 years bp.


    Cruciani Fulvio, Italian Scientist, et al

    Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and
    Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

    2007

    Oxford University Press

    According them carriers of E-V13 subhaplogroup of E-M78 haplogroup appeared inthe Balkans before 4000 to 4700 years.



    For your words about R haplogroup you didn’t give scientific journal, are you sure that it is mongol haplogroup?


    You can see:

    Kalevi Wiik

    Where Did European Men Come From

    Cit.

    (a) Those who are Old Europeans in the sense that, at the start of the LGM, their paternal lineages already were in Europe and they came to the four refuges when they were forced out of northern Europe. They were first to repopulate Europe after the LGM and they formed the bulk of the present European male population.

    Cit.

    The frequency of the Old Europeans will be considered here as the sum of R1b + R1a + I + N


    Here you can learn two things:

    R haplogroup is not Mongol but European.


    E haplogroup does not belong Old Europeans, because E carriers came to Europe much later.

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