Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

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http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/claims-about-old-albanian-leave-scholars-lost-for-words

The Austrian linguist, Norbert Jokl, is often described as “the father of Albanology” for his tireless work in the early half of the 20th century, documenting this little studied language.

Today, two new Austrians are taking on the quest to better understand the Indo-European tongue and show that it shaped the development of many Balkan languages.

Linguists Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger have begun the painstaking task of completing the first lexicon of verbs in Old Albanian.

The central hypothesis of their project, funded by the Austrian Science Fund, is that Old Albanian had a significant influence on the development of many Balkan languages.

Using the entire body of available Old Albanian literature, which dates from the 16th to the 18th centuries, they are analysing 1,500 pages of text, mainly from forgotten Catholic sources.

“Until now, little research has been carried out on these texts, as we are dealing almost exclusively with Catholic religious literature, which was first forgotten and then became taboo in the Communist era,” Matzinger said.

“Following the fall of Communism, this literature has once again emerged from the shadows, but, so far, there has been a lack of money and of background knowledge about [Albanian] Catholicism,” he added.

Different languages in the same geographical area often reveal similarities, despite lack of evidence of a common origin.

This phenomenon, known by the German term “sprachbund”, is evident in the Balkans, where the Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Romanian languages share words and structures.

But the Austrian researchers believe that Albanian was pivotal to the development of these other languages, rather than simply trading words with them.

The initial stage of the project, which has involved an in-depth examination of Old Albanian, has uncovered many hitherto unknown aspects to it.

“We discovered a great many verbal forms that are now obsolete or that have been lost through restructuring,” Schumacher said. “Until now, these forms have barely even been recognised or, at best, have been classified incorrectly.”

These lost verbs and structures are crucial in explaining the linguistic history of Albanian and its influence over other languages, the two researchers say.

They believe that they already have evidence to suggest that Albanian is the source of the suffixed definite article in Romanian, Bulgarian and Macedonian, for example, as this has been a feature of Albanian since ancient times.

Local Linguists Question Theory

The Albanian language’s influence on other regional languages, and claims that it is one of Europe’s oldest tongues, have long been a subject of dispute in the Balkans.

This is because the theory has political and ethnic implications and a potential impact on modern states’ claims to still disputed territory.

Some nationalists link the theory about the Albanian language’s antiquity to the related claim that Albanians must, therefore, have inhabited the region long before the Slavs arrived in the 5th to 6th centuries.

But while the Austrian research adds weight to the theory of the Albanian language’s antiquity, their work has received a cool welcome from Albanologists in Albanian and Kosovo, albeit often for different reasons.

Some scholars maintain that they have reached the same results as the two Austrians on their own.

Others remain distinctly cautious about the whole idea that Albanian “shaped” other languages.

Clirim Xhunga, a Tirana-based historian known for his nationalistic stance towards the language, said the Austrians’ research had not shown up any new linguistic, historical or etymological results.

Xhunga says his own work has already shown that a multitude of languages in and beyond the Balkans owe their origin to Albanian. In his articles published in Albanian newspapers he has suggested that both Latin and Ancient Greek derive from Albanian.

Kosovar academics, meanwhile, are less grandiose in their assessment of Albanian’s primary role.

Qemal Murati, from the Institute of Albanology in Pristina, said Albanian had exchanged a good deal with neighbouring languages but he doubted that it had shaped them.

“Albanians have for a long time had contact with the peoples of the Balkans, such as Greeks, southern Slavs, Turks, Roma, Jews and others,” he noted. “Albanians have taken and given plenty of elements in terms of vocabulary and grammar,” he added.

But he warned against the notion that Albanian shaped other languages, saying the claim should be treated with “strict scientific objectivity”, and citing the Albanian linguist, Eqrem Çabej, who said: “Let as talk with documents, as no one believes words anymore.”

Rexhep Ismaili, a Pristina-based linguist, is also cautious about some of the claims made about the Albanian language and its pedigree.

Albanian is clearly one of the ancient languages of the Balkans, he said, but its written form did not come until the 14th century.

In fact, the oldest surviving document in Albanian, a baptismal formula contained in a circular written by the Archbishop of Durres, dates from 1462.

It starts: “Unte paghesont premenit Atit et birit et spertit senit.” [“I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit."]. In modern Albanian, this would be “Unë të përgëzoj në emër të atit, birit e shpirtit të shenjtë”.

“We cannot talk about the impact of one language over another,” Ismaili suggests, “but of a mutual fund of Indo-European and non-Indo-European languages of the Balkans”.
 
Elias2
You can see how Albanian exploit this claim Austrian linguist, Norbert Jokl and two new Austrians in the video (and you can read in Albanian forums):

http://wn.com/The_Albanian_Language_Pure_and_Pelasgian

There are even on Wikipedia some of it:
(labeled Poorly Written)

"Do you have any suggetion if not please leave.The articul must define clearly the pelasgic origine of Albanians .There are many evidences about pelasgic origin of Albanian and the old "Greeks" which actually have the same origin , if you are interested you must know that with the Albanian language Nermin Vlora transleted with to day Albanian language 5000 old pelasgic transcript found in Greece, Aristidh Kola ( is in greek transleted as well)says that we have to protect Albanian language because is the language of Gods and heroes of Greece , he many other scholars explains the pelasgic origin of Albanian and the Albanian language as the base of other European Languages English included. Dodona."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AAlbania/Archive_2


As you can see from this brief presentation (can you imagine what the forums have) the goal is to negate the Greek culture and to present the Albanians as the natives.

But the Slavonic school has made proofs that as Pelasgian language is Slavonic.

For example, the linguist Sergei Rjabichkov has long researched and published a lot of books, one of them is:

Rjabichkov, Sergei V. 1998th Ancient texty Slavyan and adygov

Interestingly, the author claims:

Reading of a Linear A Text, Cretan tablets

Reading of the text of the Phaistos Disk

corespond (proto) Slavonic language.

http://slavonicweb.chat.ru/disk.htm

Total by this author Proto Slavonic languages are three:

1)the Scythian (Sarmatian) language is the Proto-Slavonic ones

2)Other Proto-Slavonic dialects are the languages of the Pelasges (the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos disk) and

3)of the Etruscans.

On researchings by Russian, Polish and other scientists followed up the discovery of American scientists Dr. Klyosov that R1a in the Balkans exist 11.600 years ago.


While the Y-DNA Cruciani et al rigorous tests have found that E-carriers came to the Balkans 2000 to 2700 BC.

All the sources I gave in previous posts.


And in the Balkans have long had I, J, G and R1a people.

As regards the J and G people I think that the J and G carriers live in the Balkans, much before the E.

And you can read that the Albanian and Greek Y DNA differ, for example by Dienekes.

View one of our recent research, Ferri et al 2010, all the Balkan peoples graphically presented (including and some North African nations) and who is close to whom according the Y-DNA.


You can see the Y DNA tree. I and J carriers are at Y-DNA very close.

So maybe the language I people in Anatolia and the Balkans could not be much different from the language J of people in the same region.



But I people in the Balkans mixed their language with the language R1a people who arrived to the Balkans prior to 11,600 years.

As science and technology advance in the near future everything will become even clearer.
The key important are researchs of haplogroups/anthropological researchs, and they are already quite advanced and is now much more known and tomorrow will know more.

All other researchs: linguistic, archaeological, historical, and so on. will be to support.
In conclusion of this post I will tell you that I think that the Balkans peoples (Greeks, Serbs, Romanians etc.) should be calm and to properly weigh what is science and what is propaganda.
 
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Nice article!
First of all, I'd like to express my deep gratitude for the project of two Austrian linguists. Until know all linguists have done studies only in one side of the coin: the introducing of neighboring words in the Albanian vocabulary. It was created a fallacious impression that Albanian just absorb foreign words...but never give its words to the neighboring languages. It is very understandable that Albanian influenced other languages for many reasons:
- If Albanian is descended from one of the dialects of Illyrian...then it wouldn't be that strange to exert a large influence mostly in Slavic tongues. I've read somewhere that Slavs who settled in Illyria borrowed from Albanian many words. I agree that due to the scanty of written material this work is very delicate and should be treated with a great of caution!
 
Neander
Renowned American scientist Klyosov and his work shows that R1a in the Balkans exist from before 11,600 years ago you call bullshit.
But who wants to participate and discuss he should do without the insults and spam and should uses arguments, knowledge and resources.
This is an extract from:
1
DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some
Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome
Anatole A. Klyosov
http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf
Code:
The Balkan ancient branch: the oldest trace of R1a1 haplogroup?  
A series of 67 haplotypes of haplogroup R1a1 from the Balkans was published
32-
34
They were presented in a 9-marker format only (Fig. 4), which is a common .
case in research publications by population geneticists. One can see a remarkable 
branch on the lower left side of the tree which stands out as an “extended and 
fluffy” one. These are typically features of a very old branch compared with 
others on the same tree. Also, a common feature of old haplotype trees is that 
they are typically “heterogeneous” ones and consist of a number of branches.     
An analysis of the main branches of the tree in Fig. 4 is given in Supplementary 
Information, where thirteen haplotypes of the most extended and fluffy branch 
are listed. Those haplotypes collected in Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, and 
Macedonia
[B]32-34[/B]
produced the following base haplotype: 
13-24-15-10-12-15-X-Y-Z-13-11-29
Nature Precedings : hdl:10101/npre.2008.2733.1 : Posted 29 Dec 200828
Some deviations from typical ancestral (base) East-European haplotypes are 
shown in bold, however, the third allele (DYS19) is the same as that in the 
Atlantic and Scandinavian R1a1 base haplotypes. A mutational analysis results in 
11,425 years from a common ancestor, obtained using the “linear method” with 
correction for reverse mutations, 11,650 years using the quadratic method and an 
averaged base haplotype, and 11,650 years using the all-permutation quadratic 
method.   
The obtained data suggest that the first bearers of R1a1 haplogroup lived in the 
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia) about 11,600 years bp. It is 
unknown whether R1a1 appeared in the Balkans presumably from R1 or R1a or 
arrived from a yet unknown location. It was found
27
that haplogroup R1b 
appeared from R1 about 16,000 years bp apparently in Asia.
Now let me show you the method of sampling fro the reference 32 & 34.
Code:
32. Barac, L., Pericic, M., Klaric, I.M., Janicijevic, B., Parik, J., et al. Y 
chromosome STRs in Croatians. Forensic Sci. Internat. 138, 127-133 (2003) 
---
Methods
Blood samples were collected from 166 unrelated healthy men from southern Croatia at the Department of Forensic Medicine and Biochemical Laboratory of University Hospital Split between 2004 and 2007. Genomic DNA was extracted using the standard procedures. Seventeen Y-chromosome short tandem repeat (Y-STR) polymorphic loci (DYS456, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19, DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439, DYS635, DYS392, GATAH4, DYS437, DYS438, and DYS448) were analyzed using AmpFlSTR Yfiler Polymerase Chain Reaction Amplification Kit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
34.[URL="http://www.ebc.ee/EVOLUTSIOON/publications/Barac2003.pdf"]http://www.ebc.ee/EVOLUTSIOON/publications/Barac2003.pdf[/URL]
lood samples were obtained from 457 Croat volunteers
with appropriate informed consent and with the approval
of the authorized Ethics Committee. A total of 109
individuals were sampled from six geographically dispersed
counties encompassing different regions of Croatia named
in this study as Croatian mainland sample while 348
individuals were sampled from four Adriatic islands
(Figure 1). A detailed description of sampling procedure
for 74 examinees from the island of Krk, 49 from Bracˇ, 91
from Hvar and 134 from Korcˇula was reported in our
previous paper.
16
All field studies were preformed by the
staff of the Institute for Anthropological Research, Zagreb.
The Y chromosomal analyses were performed by LB and
MP in the Estonian Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia.
1.We have ?. This indicate a question,and it is not a PREDICATION !!!
2. The DNA samples are not extracted from ancient bones .:)
So why are you so sure, the R1a1 appear around 11000 years bp in the Balkans?
 
Albanians dont exist as people or country, its a name given to them by western European powers " British". The chameleon game is over time to show your real identity.
Maybe we are holograms(y)
CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA
Wikipedia :
Albanians(Shqiptarë) !
Please don't confuse CHECHENIA with HYSTERIA
Friendly, I suggest to you this link http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec15/ch201/ch201a.html. Maybe you can find out the real facts!
 
Now let me show you the method of sampling fro the reference 32 & 34
cheap try...

32-34 is abbreviation for: 32, 33 and 34
anyone can tell you that...

33. Pericic, M., Lauc, L.B., Klaric, A.M. et al. High-resolution phylogenetic
analysis of southeastern Europe traces major episodes of paternal gene flow
among Slavic populations. Mol. Biol. Evol. 22, 1964-1975 (2005).

besides Croatia work of Pericic did also have samples from Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia....
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.short

so I do not understand your point...
among many studied areas was also Croatia...
so what?
Klyosov clearly states that ancient R1a is related to areas of Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia, and not the area of Croatia... in fact, having large sample in Croatia (besides 33 also from 32 and 34) allows him to leave Croatia out of ancient R1a area even though Croatia is linguistically and culturally related to areas of Serbia and Bosnia where the ancient R1a is located......
 
cheap try...
-
so I do not understand your point...
.............................:rolleyes:

The point of view of some of you self called scientists, is totally nationalistic and localistic. This is the reason why I'm leaving definitively this forum. Io have no time for propaganda.
STOP the making racism with haplogroups!!!
 
Garrick
Aristidi kolla is bullshit
the man is ignorant and the example of Stupidity iN Thessaloniki Univeristy
in search that was done they find more than 25% mistakes in purpose to show albanian language as Homerick
as an example I give the Dera which in Albanian means Door
and In Greek FLeece
and connects with Homeric Thera wcich In greek is Thyra
in fact I personally in blogs like zeus10 Found 40% mistakes and in purpose hiden words of Greek,
As an example I give you Amaltheia which is the goat of Zeus
Kolla supporters explain it as mountain Goat
and in greek pelasgic means always hard brest, never ending milk breast,
Kolla said Homers Erebos erevet is clear albanic word, with out knowing that is semitic erebu,
and many other bullshit
As you know the albanian pelasgic with Greek pelasgic have enough difference that is Why in
Auth, Nobert Yokl theory and approach is rejected as non Pelasgic
Nobert Yokl took many place names like Nis and Naussa Grece etc and translate in albanic language, that gave tottaly wrong results from other IE Greek Semitic and Thracian words

Aristidi kolla is the example to avoid in linguistic circles in Greece,


ON THE OTHER HAND when i read kolla I was amazed by the the many common roots,
in fact a 30% is near, that leads us That Albanian Language must have better treaty, and has many treasures But in hands of nationalist that only see everywhere Albania became a ridiculous hand of propaganda with out meaning or many times wrong Meaning
In fact I believe that Albanian language and mainly the Illyrian part of It must a link to compare and connect,
Although Albanian Language has treasures in the hands of Stupid nationalist becomes a stupid tool,
But if we use Albanian language in search comparing with other languages that can gives us better results, That why I still believe in Albanian LanguageBut not the way it is used,
as an example I give Neander's information @E mathe@ means tall men tall people
Makedonia means tall people probably that may have a connection or could be a coincidence,
But that does not prove that Makedonians are Illyrians,
cause in Greek Spain means people of Pan (God) and Russia means RED-BLOND
does that make Spanish and Russians Greek???
No Russia comes from Rus -> North and is not Greek word although has a meaning in some Greek areas (Russia in pontic Greek means blond, and in Thracia Red)
In fact I believe that Albanian Language must have better treat than today in hands of nationalists,
When I saw a research of Capodistrian University that has 700 unknown words in an amount of almost 6000, i knew that these words are not unknown but they must be connected with areas and civilizations, probably lost balcan or what ever
in fact many linguists connect Albanian language more with Messapic than with Illyrian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages

But words from ancient Illyrian must have survived,
although a possible devastasion from north could import slavic and the majority of words is romano-celtic 700/6000 is a good ground to excavate sources,
simply with the Albanians I discuss many of these words are not spoken today in albania, same way with Greece were ancient are not spoken.
But that does not mean they are not treasure



Garrick
I know that E came after J in Greece,
My problem is Peloponese or Sicily,
MtDna gives the biggest subsaharan mtDna in Greece, and in areas of achaic people myceneans,
dorians pushed myceneans in north area of peloponese were no arbanites livem, that area has more 40 of E, in fact everywhere mycenean tombs E is raised, every where not mycenean R1a and I is raised, J2 is much coastal due to pelag people
In fact maritime and connection with lions must be around 3000-3500 BC but that does not connect with 2700BC of crucciani for E
so could came later at 1800-2200 from Sicily or cyprus?
or arcadokypriot?
I must search the Cyprus E and compare and I m lazy now days
I am sure that did not came from minor asia cause we see drop of E % there,
Besides if I remember barletti said about maritime
 
Zajaz
that can be solved and different,
words are simmiler to other slavic languages are clear Slavic, words that connected with pelasgic are albanian and Greek, and words are connected with thracian are both cause thracian is also mother of southslavic as Illyrothracian
 
.............................:rolleyes:

The point of view of some of you self called scientists, is totally nationalistic and localistic. This is the reason why I'm leaving definitively this forum. Io have no time for propaganda.
STOP the making racism with haplogroups!!!

propaganda is what you did in post above...
you have deliberately misinterpreted scientific work in order to discard it...
that's called forgery and is basic ingredient of any propaganda....

do you think you talk with illiterate idiots who will trust you that "32-34" means 32& 34 without 33?

anyway, that's not reason to leave the forum...
but next time search for truth, not for arguments to win discussion....
in this way you and other people acting in that way. are discrediting idea of Illyrian origin of Albanians...
cause big lies are built out of small lies...
and if I wasnot carefull this small lie would be built in some bigger lies as well...
personally, I think that Albanians have partial origin from Illyrians, but I do not trust "evidences" that I have seen so far...
 
- If Albanian is descended from one of the dialects of Illyrian...then it wouldn't be that strange to exert a large influence mostly in Slavic tongues. I've read somewhere that Slavs who settled in Illyria borrowed from Albanian many words. I agree that due to the scanty of written material this work is very delicate and should be treated with a great of caution!

and where did you read that?

you see possible influence of Illyrians can be in words shared by south Slavs and Albanians and not used by other Slavs... I am sure there are such words...

but big percentage of Albanian words is shared with all Slavic people and not just with south Slavs, which indicates that influence was mostly in other direction than you think... that influence comes from Slavs who settled throughout Albania...
 
propaganda is what you did in post above...
you have deliberately misinterpreted scientific work in order to discard it...
that's called forgery and is basic ingredient of any propaganda....
do you think you talk with illiterate idiots who will trust you that "32-34" means 32& 34 without 33?
I thought I was talking with people who know the distinction between the sign "&" and "-". It is useless for you to insist on 32 or 34. . The study of Pericic, I had read some time ago. There was not this one the question of my example. See now that I have also made a question at the bottom of my examples. In fact, I wanted to show that the samples were taken from living people, living today in that area. And then I asked if the DNA was extracted from the skeleton of a ancient bones ? Having a haplogroup that dates about 11,000 years ago, does not mean that it haplogroup originates from that area, or it is in that area since that time.
anyway, that's not reason to leave the forum...
but next time search for truth, not for arguments to win discussion....
in this way you and other people acting in that way. are discrediting idea of Illyrian origin of Albanians...
cause big lies are built out of small lies...
and if I wasnot carefull this small lie would be built in some bigger lies as well...
personally, I think that Albanians have partial origin from Illyrians, but I do not trust "evidences" that I have seen so far..
.
Have you considered before the facts below what they mean for the genetics?!!:unsure:
Procopius 'Wars of the Emperor Justinian( book VII. 14. 22-30)
Procopius.jpg

Pro1.jpg

Pro2.jpg

pro3.jpg

pro4.jpg
For these nations, the Sclaveni and the Antae, are not ruled by one man, but they have lived from of old under a democracy, and consequently everything which involves their welfare, whether for good or for ill, is referred to the people. It is also true that in all other matters, practically speaking, these two barbarian peoples have had from ancient times the same institutions and customs. For they believe that one god, the maker of lightning, is alone lord of all things, and they sacrifice to him cattle and all other victims; but as for fate, they neither know it nor do they in any wise admit that it has any power among men, but whenever death stands close before them, either stricken with sickness or beginning a war, they make a promise that, if they escape, they will straightway make a sacrifice to the god in return for their life; and if they escape, they sacrifice just what they have promised, and consider that their safety has been bought with this same sacrifice. They reverence, however, both rivers and nymphs and some other spirits, and they sacrifice to all these also, and they make their divinations in connection with these sacrifices. They live in pitiful hovels which they set up far apart from one another, but, as a general thing, every man is constantly changing his place of abode. When they enter battle, the majority of them go against their enemy on foot carrying little shields and javelins in their hands, but they never wear corselets. Indeed, some of them do not wear even a shirt or a cloak, but gathering their trews up as far as to their private parts they enter into battle with their opponents. And both the two peoples have also the same language, an utterly barbarous tongue. Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color. And they live a hard life, giving no heed to bodily comforts, just as the Massagetae do, and like them, they are continually and at all times covered with filth; however, they are in no respect base or evil-doers, but they preserve the Hunnic character in all its simplicity. In fact, the Sclaveni and the Antae actually had a single name in the remote past; for they were both called Spori in olden times, because, I suppose, living apart one man from another, they inhabit their country in a sporadic fashion. And in consequence of this very fact they hold a great amount of land; for they alone inhabit the greatest part of the northern bank of the Ister. So much then may be said regarding these peoples.
Procopius 'Wars of the Emperor Justinian( book VII. 14. 22-30)
The Medes and the Saracens had ravaged most of Asia, and the Huns and Slavs all of Europe; captured cities had either been razed to their foundations, or made to pay terrible tribute; men had been carried off into slavery together with all their property, and every district had been deserted by its inhabitants because of the daily raids
Procopius 'Secret history' chp 23
Consequently no place, mountain or cave, or any other spot in Roman territory, during this time remained uninjured; and many regions were pillaged more than five times.
These misfortunes, and those that were caused by the Medes, Saracens, Slavs, Antes, and the rest of the barbarians, I described in my previous works.
Procopius 'Secret history' chp11
The rule of the Goths, before this war, had extended from the land of the Gauls to the boundaries of Dacia, where the city of Sirmium is. The Germans held Cisalpine Gaul and most of the land of the Venetians, when the Roman army arrived in Italy. Sirmium and the neighboring country was in the hands of the Gepidae. All of these he utterly depopulated. For those who did not die in battle perished of disease and famine, which as usual followed in the train of war. Illyria and all of Thrace, that is, from the Ionian Gulf to the suburbs of Constantinople, including Greece and the Chersonese, were overrun by the Huns, Slavs and Antes, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants. For in each of these incursions, I should say, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia.
http://procopius.net/procopiuschapter18.html
I repeat, was the DNA extracted from an ancient skeleton ?!!!!
 
Dian your question is very clear and logic,

in fact when I join The G Group Blogs I saw dates far ancient as Unknown, tests from 1700 and test around 1900-1950,
I believe that yes some tests were from ancient bone, but not all,
I have said before in another blog that we need more test results, and make maps according time than today
But in Fact the varieties of Haplogroups that is isolated or closed societies can prove connections or no relations with other societies,
As an example I give you the Gennetic of Arberesh people who are considered a closed society, and search can have clear results that can not be rejected, a mistake of % is always in every statistic,

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

that is an isolated society.

I agree that much tests and a time map of Haplogroups would be better to work and realise,


I m giving you a page to see

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/G-YDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults


now somewhere Iread about a law 1/400 mutation rate,
that means that the more ancient is not the much % but the one that has more varieties,
by that we know that an A Ydna moved to a land that is today from a land that has more varieties,
If I am wrong plz someone correct me,
that is the way dian we find the moves of people, that moves can be also be mentioned somewhere and have a linguistic bond,
that is the reason that many older written today are considered bullshit,

we read Strabo and Herodotus and Ptolemy not make propaganda,
But to prove that the X Ydna is connected with Z Ydna linguistic by the W writer or by linguistic methods,
Linguistic methods and ancient descriptions are to help Genetic and not reject them,
 
Dian,
you certainly clear that you can not offend the renowned scientist, as did Neander, and use another approach.

You dispute his methodology.

It is a childish or as a layman imagines that he knows better than experts and I this speak in good intention.

That's similar to when a beginner who learns to hold the racket disputed play Federer or Djokovic, or someone who learns to match figures disputed play Kasparov.

No Dian, it's not how you think, but just so is the methodology used by Dr. Klyosov and other scientists, if you want to learn science you can and some things will become clearer you but it is long and arduous path of learning.
 
I thought I was talking with people who know the distinction between the sign "&" and "-". It is useless for you to insist on 32 or 34. . The study of Pericic, I had read some time ago. There was not this one the question of my example. See now that I have also made a question at the bottom of my examples. In fact, I wanted to show that the samples were taken from living people, living today in that area. And then I asked if the DNA was extracted from the skeleton of a ancient bones ? Having a haplogroup that dates about 11,000 years ago, does not mean that it haplogroup originates from that area, or it is in that area since that time.
I apologize....obviously I have misinterpreted your post, I thought you are inferring that Klyosov finds ancient old R1a in Croats but claims it is present in Serbs and not in Croats (32 and 34 are references for samples of Croats, 33 for various south Slavs)

yes, I agree that there are two possibilities:
1) ancient old pocket comes from stream-like spread that was stretching from south Siberia (22000 years old R1a) and was broken in two parts leaving two pockets: Balkan and south Siberia...
2) ancient old R1a pocket completely moved from some other place to Balkan in more recent times

read more about those possibilities at
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=366471#post366471
 
What I find particularly odd about all of this is that Iberians partially descend from Eurasian Berbers (M-81) from the Paleolithic period.

In France you had a small Eurasian Berber (M-81) presence in the Western areas of the country since ancient times, and then much later around the 20th century you had Kabyle Berber immigrants to France, some of which intermarried into the French ethnic group.

Berbers are much different than what they were like centuries ago, because of assimilation.

The Eurasian Berber (M-81) can be found all over Western Europe and even to Scandinavia in small frequencies. I'd think that there were two different pre-Berber migrations possibly some that are Paleolithic in origin and others that are Neolithic in origins. I'd suspect that this Berber connection is Neolithic and present in certain frequencies in the Balkans, whereas the Iberian one is Paleolithic.

Could it be some indigenous Balkan Europeans partially descend from Neolithic (Berber) EV-13 settlers, and other Europeans such as Iberians partially descend from Paleolithic (Berber) M-81 settlers. Sounds interesting and worth looking into.

There are even theories Albanians partially descend from Arabs, since "Bird" in the ancient Near Eastern languages was "Sippar." Though, J1(Semitic) is very low all over Europe, including Albania.

I'd take those particular theories with a grain of salt, similar to Croatians and other Slavs having ancient Iranic origins, but then again those ethnogenesis hypotheses may carry some degree of accuracy after all.

Shqipe (Eagle - in Albanian)
Shqiptar (People of the Eagle - in Albanian)
Sippar (Bird City - in Sumerian/Modern Iraq Location)
 
It is a childish or as a layman imagines that he knows better than experts and I this speak in good intention.
Expert is a "Fabrice".

We are "consumers".

We seek for the responsibility of Fabric for what we consume, since there are controls and police in every state to control production.

And we as consumers, seek responsibility, for what we are reading. We seek facts, and they are not anywhere.

Remind: Reader is a consumer. Consumer has his rights.
 
Haplogroup T is interesting concerning haplogroup E-V13.

There are two hotspots for T in northern africa, and europe. In northern africa: Morocco, Tunisia. In europe: Southern spain, Sicily. With this in mind we should consider evidence that these haplogroups crossed from northern africa into europe at those two points. We do not consider a middle eastern crossing, and a balkan -> italy -> north africa migration since the frequency of the haplogroup is low in the balkans, eastern europe, and turkey.

If we consider that T did cross into europe from north africa we should also consider the possibility that E crossed into europe from tunisia to sicily to albania (which is the only coastline on the balkans not protected by mountains) and diffused to greece and serbia from there.

YrNUQ.jpg
 
Haplogroup T is interesting concerning haplogroup E-V13.

There are two hotspots for T in northern africa, and europe. In northern africa: Morocco, Tunisia. In europe: Southern spain, Sicily.

Not quite. The frequency of that haplogroup in southern Spain is very small:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Even your map contradicts your statement. Northern Italy and what looks like Austria/southern Germany are shown as having more than twice as much as southern Spain, and more than Sicily as well.
 
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