Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 282

Thread: Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    1 out of 7 members found this post helpful.

    Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity



    Berber languages are quite suitable for comparison with the Albanian because among the Berbers E haplogroup (similar subgroup as Albanians) is prevalent,they belong to North Africa and have preserved their distinctiveness despite the influence of Arabic and French.

    I give the example of comparing Albanian words with languages Berbers of Morocco and Algeria (first part) and the language of the Tuareg (part two), the Tuareg language seems more suitable because it had less Arab and French influence, due to the greater isolation of the population.

    It is worth exploring, and non-Arab languages, Somalia, Sudan and Egypt.


    English, Berbers, Albanian


    1. Tamazight and Taqbaylit

    say (eng.), timena (berb.), them (alb.)

    my (eng.), inu (berb.), im, ime (alb.)

    we (eng.), nekni (berb.), ne (alb.)

    than (eng.), zi (berb.), se (alb.)

    meat (eng.), aksum (berb.), ushqim (alb.) (q no pronounciation in English, as soft ch)

    fat (eng.), lidam (berb.), dhjam (alb.)

    father (eng.), baba (berb.), baba (alb

    thread (eng.), ifili, ifilu (berb.), fill (alb.) (ll pronounced as english l)

    elephant (eng.), ifil (berb.), fil (alb.) (l no pronounciation in English, as ly)



    2. Tamasheq

    black (eng.), әzzәf (berb.), e zezë (alb.) (ë pronounced as english ә, the: δә)

    do (eng.), ja (berb.), a (alb.)

    rotate (eng.), kәrukәr (berb.), qarkulloj (alb.)

    boast (eng.), baraj (berb.), mburrje (alb.)

    want (eng.), durhәn (berb.), dua (alb.)

    carry (eng.), babb (berb.), mbaj (alb.)

    eat (eng.), әkshen (berb.), ushqehem (alb.)

    fly (eng.), ffurrәt (berb.), fluturoj (alb.)

    health (eng.), sehet (berb.), shëndet (alb.)

  2. #2
    Marquis Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    hm, this is new refreshing idea that maybe it is possible to partially reconstruct vocabularies of primary haplogroups...sounds interesting!!

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    iapodos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-05-10
    Posts
    149
    Points
    8,433
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,433, Level: 27
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 317
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b1 Slavic South

    Ethnic group
    Slavic Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Albanian national costume from Northern Albania



    and Berber costume


  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-10-10
    Posts
    390


    Country: Canada



    I think the similarities in dress attribute to the arabic influences of the two.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    I think the similarities in dress attribute to the arabic influences of the two.
    No, it is the traditional costume Tuareg and Albanian people.

    This clothing is not related to religion or Arab influence, and later, it was worn by both the Christians and animists also.

    You can read:

    en.wikipideia.org/wiki/Tagelmust

    "The tagelmust is worn only by adult males, and only taken off in the presence of close family."

    Only Tuareg and Albanian men covered the head and face in pre-Islamic period, not women!

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-04-10
    Posts
    336
    Points
    15,078
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,078, Level: 37
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 572
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Serbia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

    It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
    Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

    Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.

  7. #7
    Marquis Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

    It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
    Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

    Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.
    Do not forget that all numbers about age of haplogroups are just very rough and ad-hoc estimations based on a model that cannot be verified in reality ....

    so, the numbers can easily be several times off...

  8. #8
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,711
    Points
    702,950
    Level
    100
    Points: 702,950, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 21.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for posting this, Garrick. It looks like Albanian language might be a hybrid of Indo-European and pre-IE. The pre-IE component surely comprises words from some Mesolithic/Neolithic North African language of the Afroasiatic family. The distribution of Afroasiatic languages matches almost perfectly that of haplogroup E1b1b in Africa.

    There are theories that Albanians descend from the Egyptians. Obviously this is true to some extent, considering that haplogroup E1b1b came to Europe via Egypt. Rather than going along the coast of the Levant and Anatolia, Neolithic E1b1b settlers could have travelled by sea and crossed the Mediterranean straight from Egypt to Greece/Albania. However it happened, the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans (often referred to as "Old Europe") display some strong affinities (pottery, villages) with those of North and North-East Africa.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for posting this, Garrick. It looks like Albanian language might be a hybrid of Indo-European and pre-IE. The pre-IE component surely comprises words from some Mesolithic/Neolithic North African language of the Afroasiatic family. The distribution of Afroasiatic languages matches almost perfectly that of haplogroup E1b1b in Africa.

    There are theories that Albanians descend from the Egyptians. Obviously this is true to some extent, considering that haplogroup E1b1b came to Europe via Egypt. Rather than going along the coast of the Levant and Anatolia, Neolithic E1b1b settlers could have travelled by sea and crossed the Mediterranean straight from Egypt to Greece/Albania. However it happened, the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans (often referred to as "Old Europe") display some strong affinities (pottery, villages) with those of North and North-East Africa.
    Maciamo
    I knew Albanians who claimed that their roots are Egyptian/African. Albanian is also true took words from Latin, Greek, Serbian and other European languages but it is possible that their basic language is the AfroAsiatic language.

    Researchers had long puzzled where it comes from the word Dardania. With knowledge of haplogroup, and the fact that the Albanians and the Berbers are of the same origin, and the Berbers have preserved their language (and dialects):

    maybe the root word Dardania is discovered.

    In the eastern half oh the Sudan, the common word (usually classed as Arabic) for a country or tribal area is Dar. The word is however nor an Arabic word really, though adopted and used by Arabs as such. It is pre-Arab (ie Berber word) for an "encampment," and from this meaning of "camp," Dar or Tar, with its variant Dala, acquired in many parts of the Sudan and the Sahara meaning "hill," since camps were frequently on a hill or elevated ground.

    "The Tuareg Veil"
    H. R. Palmer, C. M. S., C. B. E.
    www.jstor/pss/1783318
    Last edited by Garrick; 14-01-11 at 02:22.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

    It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
    Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

    Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.
    Cruciani et al (2007) estimated it but other researchers placed much closer. You can read (source: Wikipedia):

    Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches". Towards the south, Hassan et al. (2008) also explain evidence that some subclades of E-M78, specifically E-V12 and E-22, "might have been brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000-8,000 years ago".

    These numbers higlighted by Battaglia and Hassan are, I think, a lot more realistic. This period can also be connected with the creation of specific language groups within the Afro-Asian language family, which I will set the following posts.

    These estimated years say to us more important things. This means that the E holders arrived to the Europe, Balkans much later than 10,000 years BC, perhaps before 6,000 years ago or 4,000 years or more later.

    It has researchers also who dispute the thesis that the E carriers can be classified into Early farmers who, together with J and G carriers came to the Balkans (according to them only J & G remain Early farmers), in each case the E carriers came alone from Africa to Balkans rather than in pairs with J & G carriers.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    sturmgewehr's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-06-09
    Posts
    8
    Points
    7,169
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,169, Level: 25
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 381
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-Z17855
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This thread is as stupid as it can get.

    First of all a couple of most eminent linguist have studied the Albanian language and have clearly classified it as an Indo European Language.

    You have to either be stupid or Illiterate to think there is a connection between Berber Languages and Albanian Language.

    First of all Berber Language is an Afro Asiatic Language also Heavily Arabized.

    The guy wanting to prove the relation between berber Language and Albanian language is clearly on some kind of funny pills.

    there is 22 - 25% E - V13 Haplogroup Amongst Albanians and so there is 20 - 22% Haplogroup E amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Serbs even have the Somalian Haplogroup T as high as 7%.

    First of All the Albanian and Balkan E1b1b has nothing to do with the Moroccan E1b1b, the Balkan Albanian E1b1b is also called E V13 whereas the Berber one is called E M81, these haplogroups split from each other 20 000 Years ago even more.

    If Albanians and Montenegrians are Related to Morrocans then clearly Polish and Russian people are Related to Siberian Brahami Indians which are high in R1a.

    Secondly Haplogroup E V13 is Autochtonmous European it is even older than R1b and R1a in the Balkans, Haplogroup E V13 is the Genetic Marker of Neolithic Farmers which flooded the Balkans and Europe 10 000 - 15 000 Years ago.

    If it wasn't for Haplogroup E V13 the Paleolithic Cave People and Carriers of I1b would be living in Caves.

    Anyways this thread is stupid so here are my 2 cents :)

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    sturmgewehr's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-06-09
    Posts
    8
    Points
    7,169
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,169, Level: 25
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 381
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-Z17855
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Edit: Hindukush Brahami Indians.

    I was thinking of some SIberian Tribes that are of Mongolic Origin who carry more than 80% R1a.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-04-10
    Posts
    336
    Points
    15,078
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,078, Level: 37
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 572
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Serbia



    This is from Steven Bird based on Mirabal,Varljen haplotypes:

    With regard to Montenegro, the preliminary evidence seems to indicate that the population is twice the age (in generations) of any other known V13 population anywhere. Importantly, this is without verification of SNPs, so it is not 100% certain that all of these HT's are V13 or even M35. Athey's predictor does call them E-M35 (or a subclade thereof) with a very high likelihood score (90+%) in nearly all cases, however. If they are M35, there is also a better than 90% chance that the ht is V13, just based on the neighboring populations. The other reasonable assumption that can be made is that the remaining ht's are M78*, again just based on their geographic neighbors and their SNP tested haplotype profiles.
    Twice the age means something like 2x4000 years.

    I really can't suppose when did E-V13 come to Europe.
    From my point of view Y-DNA map of Europe was significantly different not so long ago, 1800 years before present. When someone realises recent and large migrations actually happened then one of the conclusions is - it is very hard to assume what was happening before 500 BC.

    One more example - just a couple of weeks ago Klyosov wrote that western Slavic R1a migrated from the regions around Russian western borders towards Poland only 2300 years ago.
    I'm not taking this for a fact but I believe it is very close to reality.

    And E-V13 is I believe harder to understand than previous example.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by sturmgewehr View Post
    This thread is as stupid as it can get.

    First of all a couple of most eminent linguist have studied the Albanian language and have clearly classified it as an Indo European Language.

    You have to either be stupid or Illiterate to think there is a connection between Berber Languages and Albanian Language.

    First of all Berber Language is an Afro Asiatic Language also Heavily Arabized.

    The guy wanting to prove the relation between berber Language and Albanian language is clearly on some kind of funny pills.

    there is 22 - 25% E - V13 Haplogroup Amongst Albanians and so there is 20 - 22% Haplogroup E amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Serbs even have the Somalian Haplogroup T as high as 7%.

    First of All the Albanian and Balkan E1b1b has nothing to do with the Moroccan E1b1b, the Balkan Albanian E1b1b is also called E V13 whereas the Berber one is called E M81, these haplogroups split from each other 20 000 Years ago even more.

    If Albanians and Montenegrians are Related to Morrocans then clearly Polish and Russian people are Related to Siberian Brahami Indians which are high in R1a.

    Secondly Haplogroup E V13 is Autochtonmous European it is even older than R1b and R1a in the Balkans, Haplogroup E V13 is the Genetic Marker of Neolithic Farmers which flooded the Balkans and Europe 10 000 - 15 000 Years ago.

    If it wasn't for Haplogroup E V13 the Paleolithic Cave People and Carriers of I1b would be living in Caves.

    Anyways this thread is stupid so here are my 2 cents :)
    What are you talking about that stupid someone can interpret your attitude in a negative means since there is no invariably the situation once and for all, attraction of science is in the fact that new research results and lead to changes and to new knowledge.

    Albanian language has no relationship with any European language, and you can see that it is classified as a completely separate, not Germanic, or Slavic, or Romance, or Celtic, or the Baltic, etc. in general any European language family does not belong. When the languages were classified scientists did not have data of haplogroups.

    When it was revealed that Haplogroup E originated from Africa (Somalia/Ethiopia), and when it was found that haplogroup E is by far the dominant among the Albanians, with the highest concentration is achieved among the Albanians in Kosovo (see map of Maciamo about the distribution of E haplogroups in Europe and peak in the Kosovo), then began to investigate idea whether the original Albanian language is close to any of the Hamitic, or more accurately Afroasiatic languages. Exactly those languages are in the area of origin, spread and concentration of Haplogroup E.

    Between languages of the same Afroasiatic (early, Hamitic) family:

    Cushitic,
    Omotic,
    Chadic,
    Egyptian and
    Berber,

    obviously Berber languages attracted the most attention, although all other languages remain interesting to study the connection with today's Albanian.

    Especially for this purpose is becoming explorers Proto-berber language, which is thought to exist prior to 9000.

    Someone can read (source: Wikipedia):

    “...But modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous, suggesting that whereas the split from the other known Afroasiatic branches was very ancient, on the order of 8000~9000BP, the split from the common language from which modern Berber languages come may be as recent as 3000 BP, according to Naima Louali.”

    If E carriers have not yet migrated to Europe at the time, which can be found at many researchers, it is easily possible for the Albanian language to connects with Proto-berber. Among the authors there is no agreement when E came to Europe, Balkans, from Africa, there are researchers who placed the period 4000 to 6000 years, some even close.

    It is high possible that original Albanian language must come from Africa, since the origin is African (for example, among the Albanian researchers there are those that connect Albanians with the Egyptians and so on.), so that knowledge come from new researchs, and new theories and conclusions created.

    So in Europe comparisons have emerged of the Albanian and Berber.

    Among the various Berber dialects, there are many Berber words, which are similar to Albanian, and some words those who speak these languages reveals.

    At the Albanian forums can be read Albanians put up pictures Berbers and affects where they are from and compare physical similarities with Albanians, the theme is not new, it is all written, I try to approach in the way of serious research and to point to this relationship, Y DNA, anthropological, linguistic, we can go on with the costumes, customs and so on.

    To the observation that the Berber languages is lot arabized, okay, you can see that I pointed influence of Arabic and French (and Spanish among some Berbers populations), however, the Berbers who speak some of these dialects will notice whether the word original is Berber or adopted, from what I get, and an effort is worth only for those words that is sure to the original Berber and have not suffered the impact.

    But it would be wonderful to Berbers involve in this discussion, then we can really all together to get to the exciting discoveries and insights, on movements and origin of population, for which the genetics and anthropology have found that the same common origin.

    Thus, we can consider the many same or very similar the Berber and Albanian words, and it would be nice to the Berbers include and to discuss about it.

    If you noticed, I pointed out that today's Albanian took a lot of words from Latin, Greek, Serbian and other European languages, but it is very likely that it is basically Afroasiatic language, and then it is a close family of languages, which I mentioned.

    Is Albanian language closest Proto-berber or another group of languages of Afroasiatic family, science will investigate and determine, it is still investigating and trying to prove, and charm of science is exactly in that new research and new results lead to a change of existing attitudes, enrichment of knowledge and new knowledge.

  15. #15
    Marquis Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    iapetoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-01-11
    Location
    Katerini Pieria Makedonia
    Posts
    890
    Points
    5,706
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,706, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    in a lingua search done in Greece

    among before 300years immigrants today locals
    and new immigrants 1990+

    among 5140 years

    1420 are latin - Romanian origrin
    540 slavian
    1180 turkish
    840 greeks
    400 arian
    730 unknown origin

    although i dont trust much the results as quantities
    (cause done by a nationalist scientist)

    a % of 5-15 of results might change,
    meaning that from 600 to 900 are unlnown.

    well although leads in berber,
    there is a notable evidence
    according to homer, in troyan war we see many times the word 'ethiopean' Αιθιοψ Aethiops
    the greek search connect them with libua-libya
    besids in modern greek is spelled as livii b=v, i as i in kill

    it would be better for a linguist to search in ethiopean or in libyan vocabulary

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    in a lingua search done in Greece

    among before 300years immigrants today locals
    and new immigrants 1990+

    among 5140 years

    1420 are latin - Romanian origrin
    540 slavian
    1180 turkish
    840 greeks
    400 arian
    730 unknown origin

    although i dont trust much the results as quantities
    (cause done by a nationalist scientist)

    a % of 5-15 of results might change,
    meaning that from 600 to 900 are unlnown.

    well although leads in berber,
    there is a notable evidence
    according to homer, in troyan war we see many times the word 'ethiopean' Αιθιοψ Aethiops
    the greek search connect them with libua-libya
    besids in modern greek is spelled as livii b=v, i as i in kill

    it would be better for a linguist to search in ethiopean or in libyan vocabulary
    iapetoc
    Berber language before the arrival of the Arabs was dominant in Libya.

    Even today in some places in Libya Berber language kept.

    In today Ethiopia main language Amharic is Semitic.

    But in Ethiopia there are many Afroasiatic languages, even three groups: Semitic, Cushitic and Omotic.

    This is a very complex area for research but it is certainly worth the effort.

    Ethiopia, 1994 census:

    Amharic (Semitic): 17,400,000
    Tigrigna (Semitic): 3,220,000
    Sebat Bet Gurage (Semitic): 2,320,000, 2006 census

    Oromo Borana-Arsi-Guji (Cushitic): 3,630,000
    Oromo Eastern (Cushitic): 4,530,000
    Oromo West Central (Cushitic): 8,920,000
    Somali (Cushitic): 3,960,000, 2006 census

    Gamo-Gofa-Dawro (Omotic): 1,240,000
    Wolaytta (Omotic): 1,230,000

  17. #17
    Marquis Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    among 5140 years

    1420 are latin - Romanian origrin
    540 slavian
    1180 turkish
    840 greeks
    400 arian
    730 unknown origin

    ...
    well although leads in berber,
    there is a notable evidence
    according to homer, in troyan war we see many times the word 'ethiopean' Αιθιοψ Aethiops
    the greek search connect them with libua-libya
    besids in modern greek is spelled as livii b=v, i as i in kill

    it would be better for a linguist to search in ethiopean or in libyan vocabulary

    based on classification of these 5140 words, we can see that Albanian language seems to have very mixed origin with heavy influence of other languages... but can it really be the case that all these words are loan words?
    number of Greek and Slavic words seems to be proportional to historic influence and mixing with neighbouring populations which was intensive especially in south Albania that was probably Albanized only in times when Byzantium was weakened by Ottoman attacks in Asia and by rapid expand of Serbian state under tsar Dusan...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

    this rapid spread and assimilation of Slavic and Greek natives explains why south Albanians have much stronger J2 and R1a haplogroup and why Albanians have I2a2 haplogroup while Arberesh (Albanians from Italy who migrated there when Ottomans took over Albania) do not...

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07...eshe-from.html

    but number of latin and turkish words is disproportionally high.... Roman empire and Turkish empire did rule the area but the languages of invaders that do not massively settle conquered area are not likely to have that strong impact....

    I think that some of the words travelled in other direction as Dardanians did live in Asia minor, so part of the words classified as Turkish might origin from Asia minor before Turks...similarly Roman empire does relate legend of origin to Aeneas who moved to Italy after Trojan war... and Aeneas was Dardanian.... so part of the vocabulary thought to origin from Latin might have traveled from Dardanian language of Asia minor to Latin..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

    otherwise I agree that words of unknown origin are probably original basis of Albanian and likely origin from vocabulary of haplogroup E that comes from Afro-Asiatic language branch.... logically, as haplogroup E went to Anatolia its vocabulary was through everyday interaction influenced by vocabulary of Anatolian languages that were proto indo-european (PIE)... as this was very long time ago, today Albanian is indo-european language although probably originally it was Afro-Asiatic language...

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    based on classification of these 5140 words, we can see that Albanian language seems to have very mixed origin with heavy influence of other languages... but can it really be the case that all these words are loan words?
    number of Greek and Slavic words seems to be proportional to historic influence and mixing with neighbouring populations which was intensive especially in south Albania that was probably Albanized only in times when Byzantium was weakened by Ottoman attacks in Asia and by rapid expand of Serbian state under tsar Dusan...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

    this rapid spread and assimilation of Slavic and Greek natives explains why south Albanians have much stronger J2 and R1a haplogroup and why Albanians have I2a2 haplogroup while Arberesh (Albanians from Italy who migrated there when Ottomans took over Albania) do not...

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07...eshe-from.html

    but number of latin and turkish words is disproportionally high.... Roman empire and Turkish empire did rule the area but the languages of invaders that do not massively settle conquered area are not likely to have that strong impact....

    I think that some of the words travelled in other direction as Dardanians did live in Asia minor, so part of the words classified as Turkish might origin from Asia minor before Turks...similarly Roman empire does relate legend of origin to Aeneas who moved to Italy after Trojan war... and Aeneas was Dardanian.... so part of the vocabulary thought to origin from Latin might have traveled from Dardanian language of Asia minor to Latin..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

    otherwise I agree that words of unknown origin are probably original basis of Albanian and likely origin from vocabulary of haplogroup E that comes from Afro-Asiatic language branch.... logically, as haplogroup E went to Anatolia its vocabulary was through everyday interaction influenced by vocabulary of Anatolian languages that were proto indo-european (PIE)... as this was very long time ago, today Albanian is indo-european language although probably originally it was Afro-Asiatic language...
    how yes no
    Many Latin words in today's Albanian may be more recent.

    Easy, when experts set out to standardize the language, each word for which were complicated to have the Albanian equivalent (various reasons), or that did not exist, were taking from the Latin (and Romanian).

    Pay attention to the texts of Europeans from the begining 14th century, about the Albanian language (the first time and referred to by Europeans in a period from 1285 to 1332).

    Source: Robert Eslie

    Cit.

    “Twenty-three years later, we encounter a description of Albania in the so-calledAnonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis (Anonymous Description of Eastern Europe), a mediaeval Latin text from the year 1308 A.D. which contains a survey of the lands of Eastern Europe, in particular, the countries of the Balkans (cf. Elsie1990). Its anonymous author is thought to have been a French or French-educated cleric, most likely of the Dominican order, who was sent by the church to Serbia where he gained much of his information on the Balkans. The text of the Anonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis is contained in several mediaeval codices, among which are Ms. Lat. 5515 and Ms. Lat. 14693 at the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris, Ms. 263 of the library of the City of Poitiers, and Cod. Lat. 66 of the University Library of Leiden. The manuscript was edited in Kraków in 1916 by Olgierd Górka. In addition to sections depicting the various regions of Byzantine Greece, Rascia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Hungary, Poland and Bohemia, it contains a section on Albania, one of the rare descriptions of the country in the early years of the fourteenth century. The section on Albania ends with the following reference to the Albanian language: ”Habent enim Albani prefati linguam distinctam a Latinis, Grecis et Sclavis ita quod in nullo se inteligunt eum aliis nationibus” (The aforementioned Albanians have a language which is distinct from that of the Latins, Greeks and Slavs such that in no way can they communicate with other peoples).”


    Source: Robert Elsie

    Cit.

    “Burcard or Frère Brochard (Lat. Brocardus monacus). In a Latin work entitled Directorium ad passagium faciendum(cf. Recueil 1906).Burcard noted: ”Licet Albanensesaliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in uso et in omnibus suis libris”

    The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin. However, they use Latin letters in all their books.


    From these two historical text makes clear that the Albanian language was quite different from Latin.


    And this text from Robert Elsie is interesting:

    Source: Robert Leslie

    Cit:

    “In its treatment of the province of Albania, the ‘Anonymous Description’ refers to its population as ”warlike inhabitants ... who make excellent archers and lancers ... and who do not have cities, camps, fortifications and farms, but live rather in tents and are constantly on the move from one place to another.” The port of Durrës, it is noted, however, ”belongs to the Latins.” That Albanian must have been widely spoken on the coastal plains and mountain regions at the time can be inferred in particular from Simon Fitzsimmons’ initial observation that the province had a language of its own, i. e. Albanian. In his reference to the city of Durrës, however, the ‘barbaric Albanians‘ are mentioned only fourth, after the urban Latins, Greeks and Jews, an indication, in accord with the ‘Anonymous Description,’ that they had not yet formed the majority group in the city itself.”


    This is the time before arrival of the Turks into the Balkans and before the Islamization.

    Then the researchers wrote that the Albanians at the beginning of the 14th century still lived a nomadic way of life, just like the Berbers and other African peoples in North Africa at the time.

  19. #19
    Marquis Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    iapetoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-01-11
    Location
    Katerini Pieria Makedonia
    Posts
    890
    Points
    5,706
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,706, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    about Aenias
    Troy was build by drdanos grand grand son Ilos
    Dardanos father was Illyros who invationed Illyria and give his name
    But its other Dardanos who went to Ilion

    No connection at that time
    later perhaps

    According Homer Greek and Troyan were same Language, but they didn't understand Diomedes the thacian, although Diomedes went to Greek games at Hellanas river
    That is because according Thoukididis Athens spoke Tyrrshenian before the archaic greek- almost 700 BC
    besides were Tyrshenian was spoken the dialect was Ionic and were Druopes (oak-tree people, druids) lived the dialect was aeolian,
    ionian aeolian was the thessaly were the Myrmidons lived (myr = 10 000) many people may have connection with herodotus thracians (thyrrsenian-thryssen-thrasen etc) big nation,
    becides myceane-myenae-minoa in greece and mycian maeni in troy leads that owners have similar PIE lingua or even the same,
    altough far we see that from all IE lang the most related in greek is the latin
    that means that the main lingua was similar to Gr IE
    but although the area is near Hetit
    (a thing that even today can' understand, if Greece took language from them)
    the possibilty that Dardani took word from troy and they from hetit leads us to a far assumpion
    a better approach comes with the islamization era
    when byzantine fall they turn to islam
    according the tradition when a christian change religion should learn the other language,
    (still in turkey we find greek words ex christin areas)
    the possibilty that turks words pass through islamization is bigger

    but 750 to 5140 ????
    still a big %

    the fact that roman legions were in area and some dismissed there may has to do
    that roman soldiers still kept words from origin, but how many stayed there????
    is there a possibility that soldiers also bring their wifes???

  20. #20
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,711
    Points
    702,950
    Level
    100
    Points: 702,950, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 21.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by sturmgewehr View Post
    This thread is as stupid as it can get.

    First of all a couple of most eminent linguist have studied the Albanian language and have clearly classified it as an Indo European Language.

    You have to either be stupid or Illiterate to think there is a connection between Berber Languages and Albanian Language.
    I suppose that the eminent linguists you are referring to are the kind of idiots who would classify English as a Germanic language, when it is perfectly obvious to anyone who has studied the language that it is a hybrid of Romance and Germanic languages (a Germano-Romance language if you will). About 70% of the vocabulary in English comes from Latin. Hundreds of English words from Latin don't even exist in other Romance languages (although they did exist in Latin).

    Many if not all Indo-European languages incorporated words and grammatical structures from the tongues of conquered people. There is evidence of Afro-Asiatic syntax in Celtic languages, for instance. Greek and Latin borrowed substantially from Semitic languages (e.g. the Latin/Italian word for 'cow' is vacca, related to the Arabic baqara and proto-Semitic baqr, while the English word is related to the German Kuh, the Armenian kov, the Persian gav, the Sanskrit go, or the Tocharian ko).

    So how could you say so confidently that Albanian is not a hybrid language based on both Indo-European and pre-Indo-European vernaculars ? If Celtic and Latin have loaned Afro-Asiatic terms and grammatical forms, how could Albanian language, spoken by a population descended in greater percentage from pre-Indo-European inhabitants originating in the Middle East and/or North Africa, not have elements of Afro-Asiatic languages ?

  21. #21
    Marquis Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    iapetoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-01-11
    Location
    Katerini Pieria Makedonia
    Posts
    890
    Points
    5,706
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,706, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    maciamo you are little mistaken approach
    many times the lingua scientist connect latium with early Homerick and minoan
    the lemnian steale that found in lemnos island
    and words that can be found only in 2 language connects them lingua
    thoukidides sais that attica spoked Thrrsenian before archaic Greek

    myrmidones and odyseeus were not relatives of myceneans
    Pelasgians means sea people, from dorian pelag means flat and ionian pleg means float
    what pelasgians has to do with continental Greece
    in ancienty latin scientists search in greek cause of the relation,
    the non IE words are similar,
    Tyrshenian also was the language Troy

    In Hommer Troy wich was a war of true warriors and kings
    we see many times the word Ethiopas Αιθιωψ as foolowers and supporters of the warriors
    the similarity of Tyrrshenian with Thrasenian thracian is big
    Mycenean greeks could understand troyans But not their allies
    hector paris Aineas has meaning in hommeric language
    Hector means 100 men
    Paris means taker
    Aeneas means glorius
    kassandra means she attack mens will
    the tribe of Druids that pass GRece (druops driops Δρυοπες) in an area that Myrmidones live had different religion and culture from Myceneans

    Your approach about pelasgians in another site is not according Greek academy of science
    Cycladetic a pelasgian were tottaly phoinecian-tyrrshenian culture,

    an approach to dryopes (druids) tell us that they came from east minor asia and went North west before Myceneans and worship trees, their name means oak people
    besides the similarity of kings
    Achamenides midle east minor asia
    Agamemnon south greece
    and achaic
    Means aga acha were words from kings
    and achaic is rulers the kings class not a tribe

    latium accordind the non IE words similar minoan means land and mount albani probably mount labani
    labrys is the stone tool or axe of minoan and Larisa means rocky nose
    now larissa is in the middle you call pelasgian and according greeks say not

    the probability of tyrrshenian means thrrasin is strong
    also Tyrus -Tyros and troy, cause its also a mycenian there as mysian

    the Big Stone buildings and pyramids are in balkan,
    likethe mycenean and laconia - Λακωνια means pyramid
    and also in bosna
    has to do probably with E-V13
    that in far anciety <2000 Bc probably an african nation probably egyptians colonize area, or the existance with J2 probably means that they came as builders with phoenissians etc asiatic,

    the albanians of south albania have small difference with dardania, mainly in syntax,
    and a lot of difference with arvanites a old at 1800 first attemp by France poukevill proves words common but different syntax and even meaning sometimes,
    the possibility that E-V13 is common to both countries if data is correct picked and (families relations)
    and enough to quantity, comes from ancient times were the first city was tyrrshenian (or not) the THEBES ΘΗΒΑ theba in greece
    from thebes went Illyros KING to invade Illyria, and from thebes another King dardanos went to east and his sons sons Ilos build Troy
    well according modern theories a Lingua almost exist like Libua-Lidua (luwan) in area
    the possibility of libua to Be connected with Liburnian and luwan is big due to area was liburnia spoken is north Greek illyria and were roman named illyria,
    but the fact that E % drops in middle montnegro leads us to what greek named Illyria,
    although in Illyrian wars a part hed moved and went to dardania and dacomoesia

    I believe that E-v13 has to do with megalithic structures before myceneans time at myceneans time, the know how was given probably by egypt or libya or middle east by E-V13 carriers and a part of them went north-west to illyria, the south part was invaded by myceneans and is part Greeks, while the north part Didn't , was thracianiazed and was invaded by romans

    the turkish has to do that if they came via middleeast probably Hettit area, and with the islamization
    the possibilty that from lydia-lycaonia hatit area went to troy and from there via troyan mycenenans mysians were thracianised is also an explain but it goes far,

    besides their social system of rulers reminds us the achaic (aga) system of families oligarchy were families (relatives) were also class and rulers,
    same system we had in athens before solon (12 tribes) and in makadonia,

    BY THE WAY WHEN THE MAKEDONIAN INVADE????
    AND FROM WHERE???
    THAT IS FIRST TIME HEARD MACCIAMO !!!!!!!!!!!
    can you give 1 source?
    Last edited by iapetoc; 16-01-11 at 17:13.

  22. #22
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,711
    Points
    702,950
    Level
    100
    Points: 702,950, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 21.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Iapetoc, why are you talking to me about ancient Greece, Troy, Pelasgians, Macedonians and megaliths, when I have posted nothing remotely related to that in this thread or any other thread for many months ?

    This discussion is about Albanian language !

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    In Hommer Troy wich was a war of true warriors and kings
    we see many times the word Ethiopas Αιθιωψ as foolowers and supporters of the warriors
    the similarity of Tyrrshenian with Thrasenian thracian is big
    Mycenean greeks could understand troyans But not their allies
    hector paris Aineas has meaning in hommeric language
    Hector means 100 men
    Paris means taker
    Aeneas means glorius
    kassandra means she attack mens will
    the tribe of Druids that pass GRece (druops driops Δρυοπες) in an area that Myrmidones live had different religion and culture from Myceneans


    the albanians of south albania have small difference with dardania, mainly in syntax,
    and a lot of difference with arvanites a old at 1800 first attemp by France poukevill proves words common but different syntax and even meaning sometimes,
    the possibility that E-V13 is common to both countries if data is correct picked and (families relations)
    and enough to quantity, comes from ancient times were the first city was tyrrshenian (or not) the THEBES ΘΗΒΑ theba in greece
    from thebes went Illyros KING to invade Illyria, and from thebes another King dardanos went to east and his sons sons Ilos build Troy
    well according modern theories a Lingua almost exist like Libua-Lidua (luwan) in area
    the possibility of libua to Be connected with Liburnian and luwan is big due to area was liburnia spoken is north Greek illyria and were roman named illyria,
    but the fact that E % drops in middle montnegro leads us to what greek named Illyria,
    although in Illyrian wars a part hed moved and went to dardania and dacomoesia

    the turkish has to do that if they came via middleeast probably Hettit area, and with the islamization
    the possibilty that from lydia-lycaonia hatit area went to troy and from there via troyan mycenenans mysians were thracianised is also an explain but it goes far,

    besides their social system of rulers reminds us the achaic (aga) system of families oligarchy were families (relatives) were also class and rulers,
    same system we had in athens before solon (12 tribes) and in makadonia,
    iapetoc
    It's about Libya possible to fit with Berbers.

    If Ethiopia is concerned it might be interesting to explore the Cushitic languages rather than Semitic.

    What further surprise is that Europeans were first mentioned the Albanian language only in the period 1285, 1332, not earlier.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I suppose that the eminent linguists you are referring to are the kind of idiots who would classify English as a Germanic language, when it is perfectly obvious to anyone who has studied the language that it is a hybrid of Romance and Germanic languages (a Germano-Romance language if you will). About 70% of the vocabulary in English comes from Latin. Hundreds of English words from Latin don't even exist in other Romance languages (although they did exist in Latin).

    Many if not all Indo-European languages incorporated words and grammatical structures from the tongues of conquered people. There is evidence of Afro-Asiatic syntax in Celtic languages, for instance. Greek and Latin borrowed substantially from Semitic languages (e.g. the Latin/Italian word for 'cow' is vacca, related to the Arabic baqara and proto-Semitic baqr, while the English word is related to the German Kuh, the Armenian kov, the Persian gav, the Sanskrit go, or the Tocharian ko).

    So how could you say so confidently that Albanian is not a hybrid language based on both Indo-European and pre-Indo-European vernaculars ? If Celtic and Latin have loaned Afro-Asiatic terms and grammatical forms, how could Albanian language, spoken by a population descended in greater percentage from pre-Indo-European inhabitants originating in the Middle East and/or North Africa, not have elements of Afro-Asiatic languages ?
    Here are some more words from

    Berber (Tamasheq) and Albanian (Shqipe):

    stripe (eng.), sәrrett (berb.), shirit (alb.)

    awl (eng.), endel (berb.), fëndyell (y alb. no pronounciation in English, between u and e)

    selling (eng.), (street selling) asәtijen (berb.), shitjen (alb.)

    grass matting (eng.), esabar (berb.), hasër bar (alb.)

    stretch (eng.), ijj (berb.), shtrij (alb.)

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-04-10
    Posts
    336
    Points
    15,078
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,078, Level: 37
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 572
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Serbia



    It would be interesting to read your thoughts - which one of the languages below is the ancestor language of todays Albanian language:


Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Percentage of genetic similarity between humans and animals
    By Maciamo in forum Autosomal Genetics
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-09-18, 14:34
  2. Similarity in hospitality among Greece and Italy.
    By julia90 in forum Italy & Greece
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 22-11-14, 17:24
  3. Top global linguistic families
    By Maciamo in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 18-02-10, 13:48
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 23-11-06, 13:31

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •