An Approach to ancient Thracian DNA

Pelasgic Bellekon white
Thracian- slavic Bello
Greek ellekon-> lefkon
exactly

pelasgic Pelloros Big Huge
Thracian Velliko
Greek pellorios
Slavic Veliko

pelasgic piosom drink
thracian piam
Greek pino -posome
Slavic "pio sam" = I was drinking
"pijem" = I am drinking
"pijan" = drunk

pelasgic gerom up raise
thracian gore
greek egiro
Slavic gore = up


pelasgic perako i made i do
thracian pravyia pravgia
Greek prasso pratto but the result prak-sis
Slavic
"praviti" - to make
"pravio sam" - I was making
"pravim" - I am making

pelasgic ???
thracian ???
slavic glagoliti
Greek glotta ->glotta glossa glossario ->ss->g r->l glogali
aeolin glossa is greka means ss-> k=g glossary -? glogari-ti
thracian ???
as you see connection of Greek with thracian and slavic is bigger
than german or baltic,

exactly, shared old arhaic words indicate living in close proximity in ancient times...

can you explain that?
seems thracian language is close to pellasgic aryan
probably thracian is the mother of slavic and not baltic as western say
remamber thracian were the 2nd biggest nation in the world, in area that today is slavic language and if thracian are proto slavic I2 people are slavic and R1a are invaders of europe,
exactly, that is what I claim all the time...
proto-Slavs were I2

semms that I2 people spoke with thracian proto-slavic

exactly, Garick might not agree but I agree that I2 spoke proto-Slavic...

whatch min 0:18 area of thracian lands, it is today I2 Ydna people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiZIn05jOBM&feature=related

excellent point, spread of I2 exactly matches area of influence of Thracians and related people...
but I would not exclude R1a from Thracian story...

I would add here historic document Russian primary chronicle from 1113 that states following

After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula
, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. .....
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

* note that in year 1113 Bulgaria is along Danube all the way to Vojvodina (north Serbia), and Vojvodina is in Hungary....
thus, this reference of living along Danube maps to Thracians + Scordisci + Pannonians

btw. Noricans (who are identical to Slavs according to chronicle) are Pannonians originally....

The original population appears to have consisted of Pannonians (a people kin to the Illyrians), who, after the great migration of the Gauls, became subordinate to various Celto-Ligurians tribes, chief amongst them being the Taurisci, who were probably identical with the Norici of Roman sources, so called after their capital Noreia, whose location is, as yet, unknown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum

The Taurisci were a people who dwelt in the north of Carniola before the coming of the Romans (c. 200 BC)[1] According to Pliny the Elder, they are the same people known as the Norici.[2][3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

Taurisci is same tribal name as Thrace..
it is related to mount Taurus in Asia minor...


I do however think that Thracians and Taurisci were dominantly R1a (though mixed with I2a2)
while Scordisci, Pannonians and Veneti were dominantly I2a2 (with some R1a)

Note that Vindelici (who match location and name of Serbs prior to 7th century move to Balkan) are Veneti derived people
However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[2] the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti.[3][4] (A reference in Virgil[2] seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swathe of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

and that Jordanes speaks of early Slavs as of Veneti race
Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36)
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
 
The possibility That Thracians WERE CELTS rulling I is more strong than the 1 approach
The linguistic probably has to do with the persian occupation
the greek influence,
The Roman occupation,
The slavonization
and the scythian and sarmates influence (probably slavonization) around Romania.

The possibility that ancient thracian speak Slavic or proto slavic language is an interesting idea, but i m not a linguist, the possibilty that they return east ....

besides balkan is ..... and the more the data the more map change colours,

for example the jews colonie in salonique,
almost 0% of jews-semetic results although they were and are a big comnunity in thessaly makedonia and thessaloniki 150 000, 50-50 christians- jews.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Its more possible that Herodotus speaking of thracians mention Celts, and celtospeakers, cause slavonick people if were scythians-sarmatians etc were almost unknown or liitle known at that time
besides from north italy to makedonia to ucraine, and also in minor asia, hmmm it is big

Didn't the Thracians speak a language related to Dacian and Illyrian?
 
*facepalm* :petrified:

although my post looks contradictory to conventional simple minds who try to map one tribe from past to one nation of today, one language of today to one language of past, and one haplogroup to one tribe of past.....it is not....

Russian primary chronicle claims that spread along the Danube and also Noricans were Slavs... Jordanes says Slavs were from race of Veneti....Thracians use some clearly Slavic words that do not have even remote connection to other Europe languages... so it is possible that most of east Europe did also before speak languages alike today... why would that be so surprising.....


but that is not the point.... point is in origin of people which can be quite different from what person with mind fragmented in models based on cultures of today could imagine..... cultures and languages change easily... there was so many German speakers in USA that German was close to become key official language of USA,but is now hardly spoken in USA... latin derived languages spread over big chunk of world from little village in Italy...Celtic languages disappeared from big areas of contnental Europe...all that in last 1500-2000 years...


point is that most of people of east Europe origin from people of east Europe.... and that people who are now Slavic origin from Thracians, Dacians, Scordisci, Veneti, Pannonians, Scythians, Sarmatians... ...which doesnot mean they were all speaking Slavic or Slavic related languages.... but Thracians for instance probably were speaking proto-Slavic related language...

whatever all those tribes were speaking, they were mostly R1a and I2 mix..

and they extended along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia and Bavaria....
very likely this was I2a2 mostly south of Danube and R1a north of it....but also mixed to some extent... and I2a2 further from south of Danube along Black sea shores....

btw. keep in mind that in ancient Greece Thracians were considered most numerous people in the world... while later references talk of populous race of Veneti scattered among many tribes and nothing of Thracians...
why is it hard to believe that these were overlaping sets...
 
I mentioned before, the Norici were Celts, there is zero evidence pointing in any other direction. There's, although few, Noric inscriptions which readily show that it was a Celtic language - and this is in addition to plenty of Onomastic evidence.

I2a2 is clearly of Paleolithic origin and certainly predates the emergence of the Slavic peoples by many millennia (according to Eupedia's genetics page, I2a2 appeared 6000 years ago).

The idea that the Slavic people originated on the Balkans somehow is ludicrous and without basis. As mentioned, the Slavic languages are closer to Baltic than they are to Thracian.
 
I mentioned before, the Norici were Celts, there is zero evidence pointing in any other direction. There's, although few, Noric inscriptions which readily show that it was a Celtic language - and this is in addition to plenty of Onomastic evidence.

some traces into past of south Slavic people seems to lead to Celtic people...
and Celtic and Slavic languages are quite different...
but why is it hard to suppose e.g. existance of some Slavic speaking people with Celtic elite in Noricum and Serbia... or originally Slavic related people who were celticized... or other way around later.... languages and culture of people change...

I2a2 is clearly of Paleolithic origin and certainly predates the emergence of the Slavic peoples by many millennia (according to Eupedia's genetics page, I2a2 appeared 6000 years ago).
I do not understand your point....
do you imagine there is Slavic gene that appeared when cultural group named Slavs appeared in written history under that name?


when I speak of I2a2 speaking Slavic I speak of period 600 AD...
my point is that there is bulk of facts indicating that Slavs who settled south Europe were dominantly I2a2 and that there are indications that spread of proto-Slavs was marked by expansion of I2a2 and that perhaps most proto-Slavic tribes were in that point of time dominantly I2a2....which does not mean there were in time snapshot 600 AD no non-Slavic I2a2 tribes, and no non-I2a2 Slavic tribes....
languages and cultures change...

The idea that the Slavic people originated on the Balkans somehow is ludicrous and without basis.
why?
Would you think it is more likely that Germanic people of today originated in Balkan, or Irish or Spanish or Italian?

As mentioned, the Slavic languages are closer to Baltic than they are to Thracian.
you mean Baltic is closer to Thracian than Slavic?
 
some traces into past of south Slavic people seems to lead to Celtic people...
and Celtic and Slavic languages are quite different...
but why is it hard to suppose e.g. existance of some Slavic speaking people with Celtic elite in Noricum... or originally Slavic related people who were celticized... or other way around.... languages and culture of people change...

Frankly, a large chunk of the western Balkans was under Celtic influence from circa the 4th century BC onward, it's more plausible that this apparent influence stems from there, than it is claiming that the Norici were Slavic or Slavic-influenced peoples. Again, what little is known about the Noric language shows words that are readily identifiable as Celtic, quite similar to Gaulish.

Noricum was very close to the core of the former Hallstatt culture - it's utterly unreasonable to assume that the Norici were anything else but Celtic-speaking. Also, in the Roman period the Norici were renowned for the iron-working techniques (in fact, they even produced something quite akin to Damascus steel!). A few days back, I mentioned about the Celtic and Germanic names for "iron" - I think the connection between Hallstatt and iron-working should be obvious.

I do not understand your point....
do you imagine there is Slavic gene that appeared when cultural group named Slavs appeared in written history under that name?

No, but I was under the impression that you seemed to imply that I2a2 was somehow connected with the Slavic peoples.

when I speak of I2a2 speaking Slavic I speak of period 600 AD...
my point is that there is bulk of facts indicating that Slavs who settled south Europe were dominantly I2a2 and that there are indications that all proto-Slavic people were dominantly I2a2....which does not mean there were in time snapshot 600 AD no non-Slavic I2a2 tribes....
languages and cultures change...

Why? We don't really know. There's also the possibility that I2a2 is a leftover on the Balkans.


why?
Would you think it is more likely that Germanic people of today originated in Balkan, or Irish or Spanish or Italian?

No. The Germanic peoples, in my opinion, originate in the Battle Axe Culture of Scandinavia (which in turn was an offshot of Corded Ware), which later received blendover from the Beaker-Bell Culture. Beaker-Bell was followed by the Nordic Bronze Age, and it's reasonable to assume that Proto-Germanic developed inside the Nordic Bronze Age.

you mean Baltic is closer to Thracian than Slavic?

No. The Baltic and Slavic families are more closely related with each other than they are with Thracian. Notably, they have the mutation of PIE initial "Gh" to "Z" in common, but this is only one out of many features. I think that the case for the common Balto-Slavic family is one of the strongest for any major sub-branches in Indo-European (the other one would be probably Indo-Iranic).
 
Frankly, a large chunk of the western Balkans was under Celtic influence from circa the 4th century BC onward, it's more plausible that this apparent influence stems from there, than it is claiming that the Norici were Slavic or Slavic-influenced peoples. Again, what little is known about the Noric language shows words that are readily identifiable as Celtic, quite similar to Gaulish.

oh, I am not talking about cultural issues...
I am talking about Vindelici meaning 'white' and living in Bavaria-Bohemia area, and Serbs and Croats who were according to Byzantine emperor also called 'white' before arrival to Balkan, and living next to Frankia (Serbs in Boiki land whioch is as Bavaria and Bohemia word derived from tribal name of Celtic Boii), about Sorviodurum town in Bavaria-Bohemia area and Srby place names in Bohemia...

I am speaking of Scordisci as best candidate for Seneca's Serians who live around Danube and how in same time Serians in Caspian highlands match position of Serboi tribe....

I am speaking of Celtic Scordisci around Danube, and of first Celtic than Thracian Serdi who come to Thrace as Celtic from area of Scordisci but are later Thracian,
I talk about Illyrian Chelidoni and Celtic/Thracian Serdi being neighbours in Balkan, and pre-Celtic IE Caladuni and Seurbi being neighbours in Iberia where Caladuni according to Scotish myth of origin arrived by ships from other end of Europe


No, but I was under the impression that you seemed to imply that I2a2 was somehow connected with the Slavic peoples.
Why? We don't really know. There's also the possibility that I2a2 is a leftover on the Balkans.

I do not claim there was no I2a2 dominant tribes in Balkan before Slavic people...
what I note is that Slavic people today are mostly R1a and I2a2 and that it is widely accepted that R1a spread Slavic language and culture....
but in Balkan we have Slavic Montenegro and Hercegovina with few percentages of R1a, Slavic Serbs and Macedonians with 15% of R1a, non-Slavic Albanians of FYROM who never mixed with Slavs with 12%, Greek Macedonians with 30%... in same time R1a in Balkan seems to be ancient old compared to rest of Europe which indicates spread from Balkan and not into Balkan...
I2a2 on other hand is on Balkan typical for south Slavs, while the rest of their haplogroups is quite different...

in same time, we have R1a non-IE speaking Magyars, and most likely also R1a non-IE Etruscans...

in same time spread I2a2 correlates with location and directions of spread of early Slavs towards north, northeast and northwest, while R1a doesnot show that...

so, to me it is obvious that early Slavs were probably dominantly I2a2 people who spread into R1a people....

another indication...I2a* samples are found in locations that exactly match Adriatic Veneti and Britanny Veneti... now I2a2 didnot appear out of air..it came from I2a* and in same time
and Jordanes speaks of race of Veneti that is scattered among many tribes...biggest of those tribes being Sclaveni and Antes...

so, yes, I am pretty convinced that spread of early Slavs is marked with I2a2...
which doesnot mean I2a2 was dominant only in Slavic tribes in 500-600 AD.... nor that it was necessarily originally proto-Slavic speaking...
 
Didn't the Thracians speak a language related to Dacian and Illyrian?


there are 2 illyrias
Greek illyria
and roman illyricum

for Greeks Illyria stops at half montenegroand above is adra sea (adriatic)

from romans greek illyria becomes epirus nova
and Illyricum is from dalmatia to transylavania

ancients illyrians (Illyria)spoke centum Pelasgic Phoenician Etrurian and kind of proto Greek and some thracian
ancient Illyricum area was more thracian speaking

Daci are mentioned as Thracians or Gaete
surely today latin was not their ancient language

in fact gaete reach asian steppes as massagaete and Quenn Tomaris
gaete are considered as part of thracians

gaete could mean Goth
or Greek Hgetai Ηγεται rulers-kings
or persian achas (greek achaic)
and also non of the above

as infact in Bulgaria thrakologist say that 30-35% of modern bulgarian is thracian

Vrygian had word water as edu Greeks Udor illyrrian Uje
so a thracian word is Edu and Greek is Udo(r),
why not also Thracian the Vedu or Vudo or Voda
and must be northern baltic

watch lettonian is Ūdens (Udor)
Simmilar Greek simmilar Vrygian thracian from 700 BC

simply byzantines were romans and romans did not accept other language than roman language or Greek Koine

Pomaks people isolated in Rodope mountains did learn Greek did not learn Latin and suddenly in 800-900 AD learn a dialect from Bulgarian? sound little ....
they are the only that accepted islam and did not change Language, as Greeks of fallen Byzantines areas.
 
Frankly, a large chunk of the western Balkans was under Celtic influence from circa the 4th century BC onward, it's more plausible that this apparent influence stems from there, than it is claiming that the Norici were Slavic or Slavic-influenced peoples. Again, what little is known about the Noric language shows words that are readily identifiable as Celtic, quite similar to Gaulish.

Noricum was very close to the core of the former Hallstatt culture - it's utterly unreasonable to assume that the Norici were anything else but Celtic-speaking. Also, in the Roman period the Norici were renowned for the iron-working techniques (in fact, they even produced something quite akin to Damascus steel!). A few days back, I mentioned about the Celtic and Germanic names for "iron" - I think the connection between Hallstatt and iron-working should be obvious.



No, but I was under the impression that you seemed to imply that I2a2 was somehow connected with the Slavic peoples.



Why? We don't really know. There's also the possibility that I2a2 is a leftover on the Balkans.




No. The Germanic peoples, in my opinion, originate in the Battle Axe Culture of Scandinavia (which in turn was an offshot of Corded Ware), which later received blendover from the Beaker-Bell Culture. Beaker-Bell was followed by the Nordic Bronze Age, and it's reasonable to assume that Proto-Germanic developed inside the Nordic Bronze Age.



No. The Baltic and Slavic families are more closely related with each other than they are with Thracian. Notably, they have the mutation of PIE initial "Gh" to "Z" in common, but this is only one out of many features. I think that the case for the common Balto-Slavic family is one of the strongest for any major sub-branches in Indo-European (the other one would be probably Indo-Iranic).


then how you explain the Ιφιγεανεια εν ταυροις
the tragedy of agamemnon daughter in Crimea Thracians the Taurians

in 400 BC Thracian was spoken in Ucraine
Then how you explain that thracian language exist in Troy
and Greeks could understand some south west thracians but not other Thracians north east

how you explain that godess Artemis (Diana) was worshiped in Ucraine before even 1rst colonization

simply when romans came thracian tribes moved north of Danub got some Baltic influence as also spread some
and later return back.


simply modern slavic are a later thracian with Baltic elements that due to cyrill and methos was spread in all Thracian areas and Baltic,

as an example look at baltic word for God in esthonia lettonia -> is latin
watch slavic Bog is cyrillic slavic east church
if Baltoslavic why baltic countries are not that much slavic?

I think thracian is the mother of slavic language

as the dorian invasion was an inner kings chance as the @makedonian@ invasion was not from north but from south, as the Illyrian invasion was made from south to north,
as the slavic invasion was the return of the outer thracian due to R1a devastasion west and Huns movements,
as today africa and asia are peacefull devastating to europe
 
then how you explain the Ιφιγεανεια εν ταυροις
the tragedy of agamemnon daughter in Crimea Thracians the Taurians

in 400 BC thracian was spoken in Ucraine
Then how you explain that thracian language exist in Troy
and Greeks could understand some south west thracians but not other Thracians north east

how you explain that godess Artemis (Diana) was worshiped in Ucraine before even 1rst colonization

simply when romans came thracian tribes moved north of Danub got some Baltic influence as also spread some
and later return back.

I don't see how any of that would conflict with the classical idea of the origins of Balto-Slavic, even though, to be honest, regardless of that I would consider some of these claims spurious at best.
 
I don't see how any of that would conflict with the classical idea of the origins of Balto-Slavic, even though, to be honest, regardless of that I would consider some of these claims spurious at best.


then go ahead and read Hommer and the thracian kings
read eyripidis and Iphigenia in Tauris

read books about pelasgic and thracian language,

thomopoulos book is a good start,
also find thessaloniki university philologic scholl about pealasgic and thracian
and read a bulgarian thrakologist, Georgiev is very excellent
and ask the bulgarian ministry of culture

in fact thracians was the biggest nation as slavs today,

from illyricum to ucrane and from south poland to greece

watch carefuly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

most is slavonic

watch
such as balios = white

in fact thracian had 2 dialects the daci and south Tracian,
thracians lived until kazakstan
read Quenn tomaris
and compare with Mt Tomaros
you will realise then why Herodotus names Thracians bigger than Persians
2nd after Indians

and carefull about spucius
cause i might return it worse,

in fact today romanians bulgarians work hard
in Bulgaria they allready connected 30% of language with Thracian
and in Romania, they are are ready to connect Dacian with Upper Tracian
 
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I don't see how any of that would conflict with the classical idea of the origins of Balto-Slavic, even though, to be honest, regardless of that I would consider some of these claims spurious at best.

1rst Homer
2nd Eyripides
3rd Hesiodus
4 Aeschylus
5 Sofocles
6 Hecateus of Miletus
7 Hellanicus
8......
9...

READ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians


Vladimir I. Georgiev asserted that the Pelasgians were Indo-Europeans, with an Indo-European etymology of pelasgoi from pelagos, "sea" as the Sea People, the PRŚT of Egyptian inscriptions, and related them to the neighbouring Thracians. He proposed a soundshift model from Indo-European to Pelasgian

Read him
Read Bible
Iayan son of Ipaet (Japheth) dwell among Tharseis (thracians)
many of the pelasgic and thracian are still in Greek language
like virb αλοιφω etc
and besides PElasgian were Pure Aryans
http://www.apologitis.com/gr/ancient/ellinas.htm

Look at the coins carefully, since you are German you will recon a shape known to all Germans.

In fact the naval people
Etrurians Pelasgians Phillistines Cypriots Troyans
and their desendans
Thyrssenians Illyrians Greeks-Ionians Palaistines Cypriots Greek Aeolians


since you call that spucius
read st Cyrill Biografy
who were baltic and who slavic,

Find Thracian Language from Bulgarians who had the Minus influence from North Baltic
Find Thracian Language From Greeks, who should have the almost 0 influence from Baltic.

WHY THERE IS Quite ENOUGH QUANTITY THAT CONNECTS ANCIENT GREEK WITH THRACIAN AND TODAY SLAVIC???

SIMPLY ETRURIANS ALTHOUGH HAVE PELASGIC THEY WERE AWAY FROM THRACIANS,
SO ROMANS HAVE THE MOST LITLLE THRACIANS IN THEIR LANGUAGE,
IN FACT HOMER WHO WAS PELASGIAN FROM AREA OF LESBOS, AND SPOKE AEOLIAN A DIALECT THAT SOUNDS BARBARIAN TO OTHERS, Aeolians were PElasgic living Next to Thracians.

Find why Homer names dark Erebos (Non IE word) and
why ?



THEN FIND WORDS LIKE ALOPEKIA (bold) IS THRACIAN
AS THE OTHER

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

balios = white odrysse Thracian = Bulgaria Today

THRACIAN SPOKE PROTO-SLAVIC,
AND THE MOST RELATIVE TODAY IS BULGARIAN DUE TO LESS GERMAN_BALTIC
or DACI - GAETE WHO CAN EXPLAIN A LOT OF REMNANTS,


OK TARANIS???
CAREFULL ABOUY SPUCIOUS NEXT TIME

CAUSE I MAY RETURN BACK SOMETHING MORE INSULTING

A number of scholars have pointed to the many close parallels between Dacian and Thracian placenames and those of the Baltic language-zone (Lithuania, Latvia and East Prussia, a region where an extinct but well-documented Baltic language, Old Prussian, was spoken until it was displaced by German during the Middle Ages.[61] These Baltic parallels have enabled linguists to decipher many Dacian and Thracian placenames. Of the 74 Dacian placenames analysed by Duridanov in his 1969 essay, a total of 62 have Baltic cognates, the great majority rated "certain" by Duridanov.[62] To explain this, Duridanov suggests that proto-Dacian- and proto-Thracian- speakers were in close geographical proximity with proto-Baltic-speakers for a prolonged period in prehistory, perhaps during the period 3000-2000 BC.[63] Mayer ventures further, suggesting that Dacian and Thracian were what he terms "southern pre-Baltoidic" languages, presumably meaning either proto-Baltic or close descendants of proto-Baltic.[64] The partially satem characteristics of Thracian and Dacian and their similarities to the Baltic group suggest that an ancestral Thraco-Dacian people was settled in Dacia until part of it migrated into Thrace[65]

Although Georgiev proves and suggest that until Baltic Thracian language was spoken
But Later after 500-700 AD started the area to change to GermanoBAltic and losing its Upper Thrasian character to Baltic, the reason was invasions and New rulers class that had no conection with Thracian,

Remember Slavic had alphabet and Bible before Germans and BAltic,

So south Thracian and North Thracian could Be Proto-slavic


According to Georgiev, Daco-Moesian was replaced by Latin as the everyday language in some parts of the two Moesias during the Roman imperial era, but in others (e.g. Dardania (S. Serbia/N. Macedonian Rep.), Daco-Moesian remained dominant, although heavily influenced by eastern Balkan Latin.[68] The language may have survived in remote areas at least until the 6th century.[69] Thracian, also supplanted by Latin (and by Greek in its southern zone), is documented as still a living language in ca. 500.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

in fact words like Bog is not thracian cause we know from Phrygian that was Tiwa, Tios later after the remove from Balkans

REmamber river Γραννικος IN Phrygia was the boarder of Thracian Phrygia
Slavic word for Boarder is Granitsa (Granikos->Granitsa)
Vryges were Thracians
so Taramis before write insulting about Me think.

Herodotus Thracians are 2nd nation in the world after India,
(meaning bigger than persia)
Greeks did not know China that well but they knew from area of Albion (England) to area of deeper Black sea and even more to massagaete and Quenn Tomaris,
 
What you are chasing is a fabrication, an illusion.

Thracian is, in a nutshell, non-consistent with Balto-Slavic sound laws. End of story.
 

well, not really... looking at words...
there is perhaps some connection but quite remote...mostly via PIE....
I find much much more relation in few preserved Illyrian words...
also ancient Tocharian has lot of very clear cognate words
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367117#post367117


Thracian
0 / 1 opekis "cap" - no match
0 / 2 asa A Bessian word for the Coltsfoot - no match
0 / 3 bolinthos "wild bull" - no match
0 / 4 bria "town, settlement" -no match
1 / 5 bríloun "barber" IE *bhrī-l - brijanje = shaving
2 / 6 bríza "emmer-wheat, rye" riža = rice
2.5 / 7 - brynchos "guitar" - Russian brenčat "to play on a stringed instrument", but no all Slavic word
2.5 / 8 brytos, bryton, brutos, bryttion "a kind of ale made from barley" - no match

3 / 9 deiza, disza, diza, dizos "a fortified settlement" PIE *dheigh-, "to knead clay" Greek teichos ("wall"), Avestan daeza "wall", Slavic zidati, sozidati, (po)dizati "to build" Rom zidi, English dough
is this really a match?

4 / 10 dinupula, *sinupyla (reconstructed from ms.), kinoboila (Dacian) "wild pumpkin" - dinja

4 / 11 embades "boots" - no match
4 /12 génton "meat" - no match
4/13 germe "warm" PIE *gwher-, "warm" Greek thermos, "warm", Hindi Gharam, "warm or hot", Persian gærm, "warm" - no match
4 /14 kalamindar "Plane tree" - no match
4 /15 kemos "a kind of fruit with follicles" -no match
4 / 16 ktistai (pl.) "Thracians living in celibacy, monks" - no match

4 /17 para, pera, peron "town" Sanskrit "pura" city, Old Prussian pera "group" peroni "parish, community" - no match

4 /18 rhomphaia "a spear"; later the meaning "sword" is attested dialect Bul. roféja, rufija "a thunderbolt", Alb. rrufë; Latin rumpere "to break, tear", Old English reofan "to tear, break" -no match

4.5 /19 skálmē "a knife, a sword" PIE *skolmā Old Norse skolm "short sword, knife", Serbian, Bulgarian kama for dagger

4.5 / 20 skárke "a coin" PIE *skerg "to jingle" Old Norse skark "noise", Sanskrit kharjati "to creak, crunch", Serbian škripa krcka "creak, crunch", šarke old Serbian word for shiny
this is not match, let's be serious...

4.5 /21 spinos "a stone which burns when water is poured on it" -no match

5 / 22 titha from Diana Germetitha ("Diana of the warm bosom") Olteanu (et al.?) interprets this lexical element as "bosom, breasts, tit(s)" ancient Greek titthos, "breast, tit", West Germanic *titta (id.), Latin *titia (id.), Albanian thitha "nipples", Bulgarian "tsitsa", "breast"
- sisa

5 /23 torelle "a lament, a song of mourning" -no match

5.5 /24 zalmós, zelmis "a hide, skin" PIE *k'elm, k'olm German Helm "helmet", Lith šálmas, OPruss salmis "helmet", OSl šlĕmŭ, Skt śárman "cover" - šlem

5.5 /25 zeira, zira "tunic, cloak" (a type of upper garment) - no match
5.5 /26 zelas "wine" PIE *g'hēlo ancient Macedonian kalithos, "wine", Sanskrit hālā "brandy", Greek khális "pure wine", Russian zel'je "a fermented or witch's brew" -no match

5.5 / 27 zetraía "a pot" PIE *g'heutr Grk. khútra "pipkin" -no match
5.5 /28 zibythides "noble Thracians" -no match with that meaning



summary: I see stronger matches to Germanic e.g. bull, warm, helmet, titha, parish, skolm... already those 6 matches give score better than Slavic...


look Illyrian now
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm

1/1 alt- (a stream) (in Altus - a hydronym) - liti = to flow
2/2 barba- (a swamp) - bara
3/ 3 bra' (brother! (vocative)) *bhra'te'r 'a brother' -brat
3 /4 brisa (husks of grapes) - no match
4/5 cleves- (famous) (in Vesclevesis - a personal name) *kleu- (to hear, to listen), Latin clarus (famous), Greek kleos (fame) - čuven
4.5 /6 lugo- (a pool) - I saw this one explained with same word in Old Slavonic but cannot confirm as I do not know Old Slavonic... there is word 'lug' = grove

5/7 mag- (great) *meg- (great) - widespread PIE word

6 /8 metu- (between) (in Metubarbis - a toponym) *medyo- (medium, between) - medju

7 /9 oseriates (lakes) - Slavic *ozero (a lake), Lithuanian ez'eras (a lake) - jezero/ozero (Ozero in Russian and Ukrainian, jezero in south Slavic)

7.5 /10 plo- (strong, powerful) - ploča = strong flat stone (e.g. made of concrete)

8.5 /11 rinos (clouds) -runo (fleece)

9 /12 sybina (a spear) - Sibinjanin Janko name given to Hungarian knight Janos Hunyadi who was leader of people armed with spears... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hunyadi

10/13 tertigio (a merchant) Slavic *türgü (a market), Lithuanian tirgus, Albanian trege" (a market) -trg = market, trgovac = merchant

10.5/14 teuta- (people, a tribe) "European" *teutá- (people, a tribe), Oscan touta (a tribe), Gaulish teuto- (people) - ljudi = people, četa = group of people (used as military unit)

11.5 / 15 ves- (kind, good) (in Vesclevesis - a personal name) *wesu- (good, kind) - veseo = cheerful
 
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I found couple of muches of Thracian and Polish.

2.5 / 8 brytos, bryton, brutos, bryttion "a kind of ale made from barley" - (polish) bryja, a very dirty liquid.

4 /18 rhomphaia "a spear"; later the meaning "sword" is attested dialect Bul. roféja, rufija "a thunderbolt", Alb. rrufë; Latin rumpere "to break, tear", Old English reofan "to tear, break" - (polish) rombac, to cut wood.

 
exactly, that is what I claim all the time...
proto-Slavs were I2


exactly, Garick might not agree but I agree that I2 spoke proto-Slavic...



excellent point, spread of I2 exactly matches area of influence of Thracians and related people...
but I would not exclude R1a from Thracian story...

Exatcly
Garrick does not agree.

Let me explain.

R1a and I are two completely different clans and they had once completely different languages.

After long-term coexistence languages ​​of the two clans were approached.

Who is who picked up more should be explore my personal opinion is that the language I carriers used to be more different and this is what today Serbs speak the language closer to R1a.
 
How yes no

remember that in Bulgarian Bolinthos is Bol
Gr Makedonian Bolinthros
Athenes Bolos

3 matches
4 Bulgarian rid "promontory", Greek ríon "id", Tocharian A ri, Tocharian B rīye "town" matches
5 etc

18/32 of south thracian fits
18/32 has some coonection
we still don't know Northern Thracians Dialect and is difficult to find,

besides reading Georgiev's work you find more Thracian that exist in Slavic areas,
Remember that Thracians reach area bigger than we think today


Sorin Mihai Olteanu, a Romanian linguist and Thracologist, recently proposed that the Thracian (as well as the Dacian) language was a centum language in its earlier period, and developed satem features over time.[15] One of the arguments for this idea is that there are many close cognates between Thracian and Ancient Greek. There are also substratum words in the Romanian language that are cited as evidence of the genetic relationship of the Thracian language to ancient Greek and the Ancient Macedonian language (the extinct language or Greek dialect of ancient Macedon). The Greek language itself may be grouped with the Phrygian language and Armenian language, both of which have been grouped with Thracian in the past.

Ivan Duridanov publishes his Ezikǎt na trakite (The Language of the Thracians) in which a number of Thracian words and lexical elements are given Balto-Slavic cognates and possible Balto-Slavic cognates. Using Duridanov's Ezikǎt na trakite essay as his basis, in the late 1980s and 1990s the linguist Harvey E. Mayer claimed that the Thracian language was a Southern Baltoidic language. There is no agreement on whether Thracian was even very close to Balto-Slavic itself, let alone agreement on which of the two it was closest to.


Now A CONTINENT IS CONQUERED FROM SOUTH TO NORTH,
AND FROM EAST WEST
ONLY WHEN CONTINENT IS FULL WE HAVE MIGRATION BACK
THE THRACIAN WERE SPOKEN FROM 6000 BC AND BACK
CAUSE PELASGIC YAVAN SETTLED IN THARSEIS (THRACIANS)
THRACIAN WERE SPOKEN FROM GREECE TO POLLAND
LATER WITH NEW INVASION SLOWLY NEW ELEMENTS ENTER
AND BOLINTHOS CHANGE TO VIK
UNDERSTAND THAT


If Thracian were not Proto Slavic then It would be not that easy areas around Con/polis to speak Slavic incoming Language,
since R1a is not that Big (10-20%) and only 100 years can give 3 generations not the time to change language total, as a Language with out alphabet before cyrill
simply cyrill bind more baltic than thracian in his bible so to satisfy some rulers
do you believe that 50-100 years are enough to change language, from incoming Slavic around Serbia
to an area outside Con/polis Byzantium?
how many they were?
and what about old people all dead?
and with no alphabet and teachers?
sound crazy,
simply thracian was a prot-slavic language, and at slavic invasions to south simply more Baltic elements came,
the difference was not that big.

Huns also invaded Balkans Cumans Bardars Ungarians,
why their language was not spread as slavic?


400 years of Turkish occupation and Greek language still exists and had 30 million speakers at 1922
why Turks that ruled 400 years did not change languages as easily as slavic did?
come on guys, open your eyes,
Ezikǎt na trakite
Thracian was proto-slavic
in fact it was centum that slowly turn to satem and later bind with baltic and became slavic

open your eyes,
edu and udo in Greece Uden in baltic area no matter PIE that similarity is big than wassa-wattar with edu and aqua


Taranis go ask a Thrakologist,
Thracian are connected with areas from krakovy to Greece and Albania to Russia
same area Slavic is spoken
only Romania kept roman
and Hungaria the hun
Even modern Greek are the Thracian Idiom of Ancient Greek koine (Thraco-byzantine dialect-idiom)
and a few Ionic that die today
1955 Tsolakis Η θρακικη ως βαση της νεας δημοτικης (thracian dialect as basis to modern common Greek language)
 
How yes no

remember that in Bulgarian Bolinthos is Bol
Gr Makedonian Bolinthros
Athenes Bolos

keep in mind that Slavs that got name after Bulgarian elite rulling over them have assimilated previous inhabitants and took some words from them...

thus, local Bulgarian words are not good match for this research, only the ones spread among all Slavic people make sense to be used as argument about relation between proto-Slavs and Thracians......


we still don't know Northern Thracians Dialect and is difficult to find,
north Thracian is likely very much more related to proto-Slavic as Triballi who lived north of Thrace were probably proto-Slavic tribe as I indicated on topic about Slavic people...

besides reading Georgiev's work you find more Thracian that exist in Slavic areas,
Remember that Thracians reach area bigger than we think today
I am not sure they do....
think that early Greek historians when claiming Thracians are numerous did put in Thracians all nearby IE people...


Sorin Mihai Olteanu, a Romanian linguist and Thracologist, recently proposed that the Thracian (as well as the Dacian) language was a centum language in its earlier period, and developed satem features over time.[15] One of the arguments for this idea is that there are many close cognates between Thracian and Ancient Greek.
perhaps J2b was first there... before R1a
I2a2 probably came with Slavs...
non-Slavic Bulgars probably brought some additional R1a...

so, ancient Thrace was probably J2b (kentum IE) + E-V13 + some R1a (probably satem IE alike to Iranian)
I am sure that proto-Slavic people were I2a2
read http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341

Ivan Duridanov publishes his Ezikǎt na trakite (The Language of the Thracians) in which a number of Thracian words and lexical elements are given Balto-Slavic cognates and possible Balto-Slavic cognates. Using Duridanov's Ezikǎt na trakite essay as his basis, in the late 1980s and 1990s the linguist Harvey E. Mayer claimed that the Thracian language was a Southern Baltoidic language. There is no agreement on whether Thracian was even very close to Balto-Slavic itself, let alone agreement on which of the two it was closest to.

Ivan Duridanov sounds Bulgarian name... I do not think it's easy for Bulgarian scientist to be neutral (not biased) regarding that issue.... comparable to how hard it would be for Albanian scientist to support anything than Illyrian origin theory... or for Greek scientist to support non-hellenic theory for ancient Macedonians...

If Thracian were not Proto Slavic then It would be not that easy areas around Con/polis to speak Slavic incoming Language,
since R1a is not that Big (10-20%) and only 100 years can give 3 generations not the time to change language total, as a Language with out alphabet before cyrill
it's wrong assumption that proto-Slavic spakers are R1a...
I think that R1a were divided between iranian dialects and non-IE speakers... I2a2 were probably original Slavic speakers... they originally lived more north - around Danube and in Noricum....

thracian could have been alike to Iranian...



simply cyrill bind more baltic than thracian in his bible so to satisfy some rulers do you believe that 50-100 years are enough to change language, from incoming Slavic around Serbia
to an area outside Con/polis Byzantium?
how many they were?
and what about old people all dead?
and with no alphabet and teachers?
sound crazy,
apparently, languages are changed much faster then we are ready to believe.... look at all latin derived languages... and can you apply same argument for Celtic areas...

simply thracian was a prot-slavic language, and at slavic invasions to south simply more Baltic elements came,
the difference was not that big.
same argument hold for Roman province of Illyria...


Huns also invaded Balkans Cumans Bardars Ungarians,
why their language was not spread as slavic?
it's not the same...
language is not spread by war, they are spread by culture and need to interact with environment....
warrior tribes are outnumbered and need to use words of subjugated tribes in every day life... so they switch language....
btw. wonder if Celts were such warrior tribe....
Thrace was Greek-Roman speaking in time of arrival of Slavs... most of previous people probably moved to safety of Byzantium and the Bulgarians of today origin mostly from Slavs who massively settled there, and from Hunnish Bulgars who rulled over them...
besides no detailed genetic sampling is done in Bulgaria....


400 years of Turkish occupation and Greek language still exists and had 30 million speakers at 1922
why Turks that ruled 400 years did not change languages as easily as slavic did?
Turks never massivelly settled areas and mixed with locals....
they just collected money and army from Balkan...
there were attempts to make collonies...but those people were driven out after liberation.....
but in areas where Turks did massively settle (in Asia minor) they did largely replace previous languages (how much is Greek spoken in Turkey of today?)

come on guys, open your eyes,
Ezikǎt na trakite
Thracian was proto-slavic
in fact it was centum that slowly turn to satem and later bind with baltic and became slavic
Thracians might have been related to proto-Slavic
but from preserved words Thracian does not look at all as proto-Slavic...
Illyrian or even Dacian would be much better candidate...

open your eyes,
edu and udo in Greece Uden in baltic area no matter PIE that similarity is big than wassa-wattar with edu and aqua
yes, water ("voda" in Serbian)
is very important word...very basic part of vocabulary of any language...
so, yes, that indicates some relation...

Taranis go ask a Thrakologist,
Thracian are connected with areas from krakovy to Greece and Albania to Russia
same area Slavic is spoken
only Romania kept roman
and Hungaria the hun
Magyar language is not Hunish
Magyars came there after Huns and Avars...
their language is same group as Finish...
 
so, ancient Thrace was probably J2b (kentum IE) + E-V13 + some R1a (probably satem IE alike to Iranian)
I am sure that proto-Slavic people were I2a2

nonsence J2b indoeuropean language familly?!?!?
i thank you that gave to poor thracians a little R1a.

today romanian Y haplogroups di giacomo 2004 (for Romania)
haplogroup I 25%
haplogroup J 15 %
Haplogroup E 10%
Haplogroup R (R1a+R1b)= 45%
other (G, T) 5%

today bulgaria
E 12%
J 17%
I 36%
R 32%

today serbia
24% E
11% J
35% I
22% R

so 35% in Serbia (E+J), bulgaria 29% (E+J) and 25% romania (E+J). If
someone belive you that thracians were E+J+some R1a may think that slavs were I2a+R1b+(some!!!!)R1a!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nonsence from the first to the last word of you
 
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