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Thread: An Approach to ancient Thracian DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I mentioned before, the Norici were Celts, there is zero evidence pointing in any other direction. There's, although few, Noric inscriptions which readily show that it was a Celtic language - and this is in addition to plenty of Onomastic evidence.
    some traces into past of south Slavic people seems to lead to Celtic people...
    and Celtic and Slavic languages are quite different...
    but why is it hard to suppose e.g. existance of some Slavic speaking people with Celtic elite in Noricum and Serbia... or originally Slavic related people who were celticized... or other way around later.... languages and culture of people change...

    I2a2 is clearly of Paleolithic origin and certainly predates the emergence of the Slavic peoples by many millennia (according to Eupedia's genetics page, I2a2 appeared 6000 years ago).
    I do not understand your point....
    do you imagine there is Slavic gene that appeared when cultural group named Slavs appeared in written history under that name?


    when I speak of I2a2 speaking Slavic I speak of period 600 AD...
    my point is that there is bulk of facts indicating that Slavs who settled south Europe were dominantly I2a2 and that there are indications that spread of proto-Slavs was marked by expansion of I2a2 and that perhaps most proto-Slavic tribes were in that point of time dominantly I2a2....which does not mean there were in time snapshot 600 AD no non-Slavic I2a2 tribes, and no non-I2a2 Slavic tribes....
    languages and cultures change...

    The idea that the Slavic people originated on the Balkans somehow is ludicrous and without basis.
    why?
    Would you think it is more likely that Germanic people of today originated in Balkan, or Irish or Spanish or Italian?

    As mentioned, the Slavic languages are closer to Baltic than they are to Thracian.
    you mean Baltic is closer to Thracian than Slavic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    some traces into past of south Slavic people seems to lead to Celtic people...
    and Celtic and Slavic languages are quite different...
    but why is it hard to suppose e.g. existance of some Slavic speaking people with Celtic elite in Noricum... or originally Slavic related people who were celticized... or other way around.... languages and culture of people change...
    Frankly, a large chunk of the western Balkans was under Celtic influence from circa the 4th century BC onward, it's more plausible that this apparent influence stems from there, than it is claiming that the Norici were Slavic or Slavic-influenced peoples. Again, what little is known about the Noric language shows words that are readily identifiable as Celtic, quite similar to Gaulish.

    Noricum was very close to the core of the former Hallstatt culture - it's utterly unreasonable to assume that the Norici were anything else but Celtic-speaking. Also, in the Roman period the Norici were renowned for the iron-working techniques (in fact, they even produced something quite akin to Damascus steel!). A few days back, I mentioned about the Celtic and Germanic names for "iron" - I think the connection between Hallstatt and iron-working should be obvious.

    I do not understand your point....
    do you imagine there is Slavic gene that appeared when cultural group named Slavs appeared in written history under that name?
    No, but I was under the impression that you seemed to imply that I2a2 was somehow connected with the Slavic peoples.

    when I speak of I2a2 speaking Slavic I speak of period 600 AD...
    my point is that there is bulk of facts indicating that Slavs who settled south Europe were dominantly I2a2 and that there are indications that all proto-Slavic people were dominantly I2a2....which does not mean there were in time snapshot 600 AD no non-Slavic I2a2 tribes....
    languages and cultures change...
    Why? We don't really know. There's also the possibility that I2a2 is a leftover on the Balkans.


    why?
    Would you think it is more likely that Germanic people of today originated in Balkan, or Irish or Spanish or Italian?
    No. The Germanic peoples, in my opinion, originate in the Battle Axe Culture of Scandinavia (which in turn was an offshot of Corded Ware), which later received blendover from the Beaker-Bell Culture. Beaker-Bell was followed by the Nordic Bronze Age, and it's reasonable to assume that Proto-Germanic developed inside the Nordic Bronze Age.

    you mean Baltic is closer to Thracian than Slavic?
    No. The Baltic and Slavic families are more closely related with each other than they are with Thracian. Notably, they have the mutation of PIE initial "Gh" to "Z" in common, but this is only one out of many features. I think that the case for the common Balto-Slavic family is one of the strongest for any major sub-branches in Indo-European (the other one would be probably Indo-Iranic).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Frankly, a large chunk of the western Balkans was under Celtic influence from circa the 4th century BC onward, it's more plausible that this apparent influence stems from there, than it is claiming that the Norici were Slavic or Slavic-influenced peoples. Again, what little is known about the Noric language shows words that are readily identifiable as Celtic, quite similar to Gaulish.
    oh, I am not talking about cultural issues...
    I am talking about Vindelici meaning 'white' and living in Bavaria-Bohemia area, and Serbs and Croats who were according to Byzantine emperor also called 'white' before arrival to Balkan, and living next to Frankia (Serbs in Boiki land whioch is as Bavaria and Bohemia word derived from tribal name of Celtic Boii), about Sorviodurum town in Bavaria-Bohemia area and Srby place names in Bohemia...

    I am speaking of Scordisci as best candidate for Seneca's Serians who live around Danube and how in same time Serians in Caspian highlands match position of Serboi tribe....

    I am speaking of Celtic Scordisci around Danube, and of first Celtic than Thracian Serdi who come to Thrace as Celtic from area of Scordisci but are later Thracian,
    I talk about Illyrian Chelidoni and Celtic/Thracian Serdi being neighbours in Balkan, and pre-Celtic IE Caladuni and Seurbi being neighbours in Iberia where Caladuni according to Scotish myth of origin arrived by ships from other end of Europe


    No, but I was under the impression that you seemed to imply that I2a2 was somehow connected with the Slavic peoples.
    Why? We don't really know. There's also the possibility that I2a2 is a leftover on the Balkans.
    I do not claim there was no I2a2 dominant tribes in Balkan before Slavic people...
    what I note is that Slavic people today are mostly R1a and I2a2 and that it is widely accepted that R1a spread Slavic language and culture....
    but in Balkan we have Slavic Montenegro and Hercegovina with few percentages of R1a, Slavic Serbs and Macedonians with 15% of R1a, non-Slavic Albanians of FYROM who never mixed with Slavs with 12%, Greek Macedonians with 30%... in same time R1a in Balkan seems to be ancient old compared to rest of Europe which indicates spread from Balkan and not into Balkan...
    I2a2 on other hand is on Balkan typical for south Slavs, while the rest of their haplogroups is quite different...

    in same time, we have R1a non-IE speaking Magyars, and most likely also R1a non-IE Etruscans...

    in same time spread I2a2 correlates with location and directions of spread of early Slavs towards north, northeast and northwest, while R1a doesnot show that...

    so, to me it is obvious that early Slavs were probably dominantly I2a2 people who spread into R1a people....

    another indication...I2a* samples are found in locations that exactly match Adriatic Veneti and Britanny Veneti... now I2a2 didnot appear out of air..it came from I2a* and in same time
    and Jordanes speaks of race of Veneti that is scattered among many tribes...biggest of those tribes being Sclaveni and Antes...

    so, yes, I am pretty convinced that spread of early Slavs is marked with I2a2...
    which doesnot mean I2a2 was dominant only in Slavic tribes in 500-600 AD.... nor that it was necessarily originally proto-Slavic speaking...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    Didn't the Thracians speak a language related to Dacian and Illyrian?

    there are 2 illyrias
    Greek illyria
    and roman illyricum

    for Greeks Illyria stops at half montenegroand above is adra sea (adriatic)

    from romans greek illyria becomes epirus nova
    and Illyricum is from dalmatia to transylavania

    ancients illyrians (Illyria)spoke centum Pelasgic Phoenician Etrurian and kind of proto Greek and some thracian
    ancient Illyricum area was more thracian speaking

    Daci are mentioned as Thracians or Gaete
    surely today latin was not their ancient language

    in fact gaete reach asian steppes as massagaete and Quenn Tomaris
    gaete are considered as part of thracians

    gaete could mean Goth
    or Greek Hgetai Ηγεται rulers-kings
    or persian achas (greek achaic)
    and also non of the above

    as infact in Bulgaria thrakologist say that 30-35% of modern bulgarian is thracian

    Vrygian had word water as edu Greeks Udor illyrrian Uje
    so a thracian word is Edu and Greek is Udo(r),
    why not also Thracian the Vedu or Vudo or Voda
    and must be northern baltic

    watch lettonian is Ūdens (Udor)
    Simmilar Greek simmilar Vrygian thracian from 700 BC

    simply byzantines were romans and romans did not accept other language than roman language or Greek Koine

    Pomaks people isolated in Rodope mountains did learn Greek did not learn Latin and suddenly in 800-900 AD learn a dialect from Bulgarian? sound little ....
    they are the only that accepted islam and did not change Language, as Greeks of fallen Byzantines areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Frankly, a large chunk of the western Balkans was under Celtic influence from circa the 4th century BC onward, it's more plausible that this apparent influence stems from there, than it is claiming that the Norici were Slavic or Slavic-influenced peoples. Again, what little is known about the Noric language shows words that are readily identifiable as Celtic, quite similar to Gaulish.

    Noricum was very close to the core of the former Hallstatt culture - it's utterly unreasonable to assume that the Norici were anything else but Celtic-speaking. Also, in the Roman period the Norici were renowned for the iron-working techniques (in fact, they even produced something quite akin to Damascus steel!). A few days back, I mentioned about the Celtic and Germanic names for "iron" - I think the connection between Hallstatt and iron-working should be obvious.



    No, but I was under the impression that you seemed to imply that I2a2 was somehow connected with the Slavic peoples.



    Why? We don't really know. There's also the possibility that I2a2 is a leftover on the Balkans.




    No. The Germanic peoples, in my opinion, originate in the Battle Axe Culture of Scandinavia (which in turn was an offshot of Corded Ware), which later received blendover from the Beaker-Bell Culture. Beaker-Bell was followed by the Nordic Bronze Age, and it's reasonable to assume that Proto-Germanic developed inside the Nordic Bronze Age.



    No. The Baltic and Slavic families are more closely related with each other than they are with Thracian. Notably, they have the mutation of PIE initial "Gh" to "Z" in common, but this is only one out of many features. I think that the case for the common Balto-Slavic family is one of the strongest for any major sub-branches in Indo-European (the other one would be probably Indo-Iranic).

    then how you explain the Ιφιγεανεια εν ταυροις
    the tragedy of agamemnon daughter in Crimea Thracians the Taurians

    in 400 BC Thracian was spoken in Ucraine
    Then how you explain that thracian language exist in Troy
    and Greeks could understand some south west thracians but not other Thracians north east

    how you explain that godess Artemis (Diana) was worshiped in Ucraine before even 1rst colonization

    simply when romans came thracian tribes moved north of Danub got some Baltic influence as also spread some
    and later return back.


    simply modern slavic are a later thracian with Baltic elements that due to cyrill and methos was spread in all Thracian areas and Baltic,

    as an example look at baltic word for God in esthonia lettonia -> is latin
    watch slavic Bog is cyrillic slavic east church
    if Baltoslavic why baltic countries are not that much slavic?

    I think thracian is the mother of slavic language

    as the dorian invasion was an inner kings chance as the @[email protected] invasion was not from north but from south, as the Illyrian invasion was made from south to north,
    as the slavic invasion was the return of the outer thracian due to R1a devastasion west and Huns movements,
    as today africa and asia are peacefull devastating to europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    then how you explain the Ιφιγεανεια εν ταυροις
    the tragedy of agamemnon daughter in Crimea Thracians the Taurians

    in 400 BC thracian was spoken in Ucraine
    Then how you explain that thracian language exist in Troy
    and Greeks could understand some south west thracians but not other Thracians north east

    how you explain that godess Artemis (Diana) was worshiped in Ucraine before even 1rst colonization

    simply when romans came thracian tribes moved north of Danub got some Baltic influence as also spread some
    and later return back.
    I don't see how any of that would conflict with the classical idea of the origins of Balto-Slavic, even though, to be honest, regardless of that I would consider some of these claims spurious at best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I don't see how any of that would conflict with the classical idea of the origins of Balto-Slavic, even though, to be honest, regardless of that I would consider some of these claims spurious at best.

    then go ahead and read Hommer and the thracian kings
    read eyripidis and Iphigenia in Tauris

    read books about pelasgic and thracian language,

    thomopoulos book is a good start,
    also find thessaloniki university philologic scholl about pealasgic and thracian
    and read a bulgarian thrakologist, Georgiev is very excellent
    and ask the bulgarian ministry of culture

    in fact thracians was the biggest nation as slavs today,

    from illyricum to ucrane and from south poland to greece

    watch carefuly
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

    most is slavonic

    watch
    such as balios = white

    in fact thracian had 2 dialects the daci and south Tracian,
    thracians lived until kazakstan
    read Quenn tomaris
    and compare with Mt Tomaros
    you will realise then why Herodotus names Thracians bigger than Persians
    2nd after Indians

    and carefull about spucius
    cause i might return it worse,

    in fact today romanians bulgarians work hard
    in Bulgaria they allready connected 30% of language with Thracian
    and in Romania, they are are ready to connect Dacian with Upper Tracian
    Last edited by iapetoc; 13-03-11 at 09:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I don't see how any of that would conflict with the classical idea of the origins of Balto-Slavic, even though, to be honest, regardless of that I would consider some of these claims spurious at best.
    1rst Homer
    2nd Eyripides
    3rd Hesiodus
    4 Aeschylus
    5 Sofocles
    6 Hecateus of Miletus
    7 Hellanicus
    8......
    9...

    READ

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians


    Vladimir I. Georgiev asserted that the Pelasgians were Indo-Europeans, with an Indo-European etymology of pelasgoi from pelagos, "sea" as the Sea People, the PRŚT of Egyptian inscriptions, and related them to the neighbouring Thracians. He proposed a soundshift model from Indo-European to Pelasgian

    Read him
    Read Bible
    Iayan son of Ipaet (Japheth) dwell among Tharseis (thracians)
    many of the pelasgic and thracian are still in Greek language
    like virb αλοιφω etc
    and besides PElasgian were Pure Aryans
    http://www.apologitis.com/gr/ancient/ellinas.htm

    Look at the coins carefully, since you are German you will recon a shape known to all Germans.

    In fact the naval people
    Etrurians Pelasgians Phillistines Cypriots Troyans
    and their desendans
    Thyrssenians Illyrians Greeks-Ionians Palaistines Cypriots Greek Aeolians


    since you call that spucius
    read st Cyrill Biografy
    who were baltic and who slavic,

    Find Thracian Language from Bulgarians who had the Minus influence from North Baltic
    Find Thracian Language From Greeks, who should have the almost 0 influence from Baltic.

    WHY THERE IS Quite ENOUGH QUANTITY THAT CONNECTS ANCIENT GREEK WITH THRACIAN AND TODAY SLAVIC???

    SIMPLY ETRURIANS ALTHOUGH HAVE PELASGIC THEY WERE AWAY FROM THRACIANS,
    SO ROMANS HAVE THE MOST LITLLE THRACIANS IN THEIR LANGUAGE,
    IN FACT HOMER WHO WAS PELASGIAN FROM AREA OF LESBOS, AND SPOKE AEOLIAN A DIALECT THAT SOUNDS BARBARIAN TO OTHERS, Aeolians were PElasgic living Next to Thracians.

    Find why Homer names dark Erebos (Non IE word) and
    why ?



    THEN FIND WORDS LIKE ALOPEKIA (bold) IS THRACIAN
    AS THE OTHER

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

    balios = white odrysse Thracian = Bulgaria Today

    THRACIAN SPOKE PROTO-SLAVIC,
    AND THE MOST RELATIVE TODAY IS BULGARIAN DUE TO LESS GERMAN_BALTIC
    or DACI - GAETE WHO CAN EXPLAIN A LOT OF REMNANTS,


    OK TARANIS???
    CAREFULL ABOUY SPUCIOUS NEXT TIME

    CAUSE I MAY RETURN BACK SOMETHING MORE INSULTING

    A number of scholars have pointed to the many close parallels between Dacian and Thracian placenames and those of the Baltic language-zone (Lithuania, Latvia and East Prussia, a region where an extinct but well-documented Baltic language, Old Prussian, was spoken until it was displaced by German during the Middle Ages.[61] These Baltic parallels have enabled linguists to decipher many Dacian and Thracian placenames. Of the 74 Dacian placenames analysed by Duridanov in his 1969 essay, a total of 62 have Baltic cognates, the great majority rated "certain" by Duridanov.[62] To explain this, Duridanov suggests that proto-Dacian- and proto-Thracian- speakers were in close geographical proximity with proto-Baltic-speakers for a prolonged period in prehistory, perhaps during the period 3000-2000 BC.[63] Mayer ventures further, suggesting that Dacian and Thracian were what he terms "southern pre-Baltoidic" languages, presumably meaning either proto-Baltic or close descendants of proto-Baltic.[64] The partially satem characteristics of Thracian and Dacian and their similarities to the Baltic group suggest that an ancestral Thraco-Dacian people was settled in Dacia until part of it migrated into Thrace[65]

    Although Georgiev proves and suggest that until Baltic Thracian language was spoken
    But Later after 500-700 AD started the area to change to GermanoBAltic and losing its Upper Thrasian character to Baltic, the reason was invasions and New rulers class that had no conection with Thracian,

    Remember Slavic had alphabet and Bible before Germans and BAltic,

    So south Thracian and North Thracian could Be Proto-slavic


    According to Georgiev, Daco-Moesian was replaced by Latin as the everyday language in some parts of the two Moesias during the Roman imperial era, but in others (e.g. Dardania (S. Serbia/N. Macedonian Rep.), Daco-Moesian remained dominant, although heavily influenced by eastern Balkan Latin.[68] The language may have survived in remote areas at least until the 6th century.[69] Thracian, also supplanted by Latin (and by Greek in its southern zone), is documented as still a living language in ca. 500.[

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

    in fact words like Bog is not thracian cause we know from Phrygian that was Tiwa, Tios later after the remove from Balkans

    REmamber river Γραννικος IN Phrygia was the boarder of Thracian Phrygia
    Slavic word for Boarder is Granitsa (Granikos->Granitsa)
    Vryges were Thracians
    so Taramis before write insulting about Me think.

    Herodotus Thracians are 2nd nation in the world after India,
    (meaning bigger than persia)
    Greeks did not know China that well but they knew from area of Albion (England) to area of deeper Black sea and even more to massagaete and Quenn Tomaris,

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    What you are chasing is a fabrication, an illusion.

    Thracian is, in a nutshell, non-consistent with Balto-Slavic sound laws. End of story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    watch carefuly
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

    most is slavonic
    well, not really... looking at words...
    there is perhaps some connection but quite remote...mostly via PIE....
    I find much much more relation in few preserved Illyrian words...
    also ancient Tocharian has lot of very clear cognate words
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...117#post367117


    Thracian
    0 / 1 opekis "cap" - no match
    0 / 2 asa A Bessian word for the Coltsfoot - no match
    0 / 3 bolinthos "wild bull" - no match
    0 / 4 bria "town, settlement" -no match
    1 / 5 bríloun "barber" IE *bhrī-l - brijanje = shaving
    2 / 6 bríza "emmer-wheat, rye" riža = rice
    2.5 / 7 - brynchos "guitar" - Russian brenčat "to play on a stringed instrument", but no all Slavic word
    2.5 / 8 brytos, bryton, brutos, bryttion "a kind of ale made from barley" - no match

    3 / 9 deiza, disza, diza, dizos "a fortified settlement" PIE *dheigh-, "to knead clay" Greek teichos ("wall"), Avestan daeza "wall", Slavic zidati, sozidati, (po)dizati "to build" Rom zidi, English dough
    is this really a match?

    4 / 10 dinupula, *sinupyla (reconstructed from ms.), kinoboila (Dacian) "wild pumpkin" - dinja

    4 / 11 embades "boots" - no match
    4 /12 génton "meat" - no match
    4/13 germe "warm" PIE *gwher-, "warm" Greek thermos, "warm", Hindi Gharam, "warm or hot", Persian gærm, "warm" - no match
    4 /14 kalamindar "Plane tree" - no match
    4 /15 kemos "a kind of fruit with follicles" -no match
    4 / 16 ktistai (pl.) "Thracians living in celibacy, monks" - no match

    4 /17 para, pera, peron "town" Sanskrit "pura" city, Old Prussian pera "group" peroni "parish, community" - no match

    4 /18 rhomphaia "a spear"; later the meaning "sword" is attested dialect Bul. roféja, rufija "a thunderbolt", Alb. rrufë; Latin rumpere "to break, tear", Old English reofan "to tear, break" -no match

    4.5 /19 skálmē "a knife, a sword" PIE *skolmā Old Norse skolm "short sword, knife", Serbian, Bulgarian kama for dagger

    4.5 / 20 skárke "a coin" PIE *skerg "to jingle" Old Norse skark "noise", Sanskrit kharjati "to creak, crunch", Serbian škripa krcka "creak, crunch", šarke old Serbian word for shiny
    this is not match, let's be serious...

    4.5 /21 spinos "a stone which burns when water is poured on it" -no match

    5 / 22 titha from Diana Germetitha ("Diana of the warm bosom") Olteanu (et al.?) interprets this lexical element as "bosom, breasts, tit(s)" ancient Greek titthos, "breast, tit", West Germanic *titta (id.), Latin *titia (id.), Albanian thitha "nipples", Bulgarian "tsitsa", "breast"
    - sisa

    5 /23 torelle "a lament, a song of mourning" -no match

    5.5 /24 zalmós, zelmis "a hide, skin" PIE *k'elm, k'olm German Helm "helmet", Lith šálmas, OPruss salmis "helmet", OSl šlĕmŭ, Skt śárman "cover" - šlem

    5.5 /25 zeira, zira "tunic, cloak" (a type of upper garment) - no match
    5.5 /26 zelas "wine" PIE *g'hēlo ancient Macedonian kalithos, "wine", Sanskrit hālā "brandy", Greek khális "pure wine", Russian zel'je "a fermented or witch's brew" -no match

    5.5 / 27 zetraía "a pot" PIE *g'heutr Grk. khútra "pipkin" -no match
    5.5 /28 zibythides "noble Thracians" -no match with that meaning



    summary: I see stronger matches to Germanic e.g. bull, warm, helmet, titha, parish, skolm... already those 6 matches give score better than Slavic...


    look Illyrian now
    http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm

    1/1 alt- (a stream) (in Altus - a hydronym) - liti = to flow
    2/2 barba- (a swamp) - bara
    3/ 3 bra' (brother! (vocative)) *bhra'te'r 'a brother' -brat
    3 /4 brisa (husks of grapes) - no match
    4/5 cleves- (famous) (in Vesclevesis - a personal name) *kleu- (to hear, to listen), Latin clarus (famous), Greek kleos (fame) - čuven
    4.5 /6 lugo- (a pool) - I saw this one explained with same word in Old Slavonic but cannot confirm as I do not know Old Slavonic... there is word 'lug' = grove

    5/7 mag- (great) *meg- (great) - widespread PIE word

    6 /8 metu- (between) (in Metubarbis - a toponym) *medyo- (medium, between) - medju

    7 /9 oseriates (lakes) - Slavic *ozero (a lake), Lithuanian ez'eras (a lake) - jezero/ozero (Ozero in Russian and Ukrainian, jezero in south Slavic)

    7.5 /10 plo- (strong, powerful) - ploča = strong flat stone (e.g. made of concrete)

    8.5 /11 rinos (clouds) -runo (fleece)

    9 /12 sybina (a spear) - Sibinjanin Janko name given to Hungarian knight Janos Hunyadi who was leader of people armed with spears... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hunyadi

    10/13 tertigio (a merchant) Slavic *türgü (a market), Lithuanian tirgus, Albanian trege" (a market) -trg = market, trgovac = merchant

    10.5/14 teuta- (people, a tribe) "European" *teutá- (people, a tribe), Oscan touta (a tribe), Gaulish teuto- (people) - ljudi = people, četa = group of people (used as military unit)

    11.5 / 15 ves- (kind, good) (in Vesclevesis - a personal name) *wesu- (good, kind) - veseo = cheerful
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 13-03-11 at 14:54. Reason: there was error in counting

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    I found couple of muches of Thracian and Polish.

    2.5 / 8 brytos, bryton, brutos, bryttion "a kind of ale made from barley" - (polish) bryja, a very dirty liquid.

    4 /18 rhomphaia "a spear"; later the meaning "sword" is attested dialect Bul. roféja, rufija "a thunderbolt", Alb. rrufë; Latin rumpere "to break, tear", Old English reofan "to tear, break" - (polish) rombac, to cut wood.


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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post


    exactly, that is what I claim all the time...
    proto-Slavs were I2


    exactly, Garick might not agree but I agree that I2 spoke proto-Slavic...



    excellent point, spread of I2 exactly matches area of influence of Thracians and related people...
    but I would not exclude R1a from Thracian story...
    Exatcly
    Garrick does not agree.

    Let me explain.

    R1a and I are two completely different clans and they had once completely different languages.

    After long-term coexistence languages ​​of the two clans were approached.

    Who is who picked up more should be explore my personal opinion is that the language I carriers used to be more different and this is what today Serbs speak the language closer to R1a.

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    How yes no

    remember that in Bulgarian Bolinthos is Bol
    Gr Makedonian Bolinthros
    Athenes Bolos

    3 matches
    4 Bulgarian rid "promontory", Greek ríon "id", Tocharian A ri, Tocharian B rīye "town" matches
    5 etc

    18/32 of south thracian fits
    18/32 has some coonection
    we still don't know Northern Thracians Dialect and is difficult to find,

    besides reading Georgiev's work you find more Thracian that exist in Slavic areas,
    Remember that Thracians reach area bigger than we think today


    Sorin Mihai Olteanu, a Romanian linguist and Thracologist, recently proposed that the Thracian (as well as the Dacian) language was a centum language in its earlier period, and developed satem features over time.[15] One of the arguments for this idea is that there are many close cognates between Thracian and Ancient Greek. There are also substratum words in the Romanian language that are cited as evidence of the genetic relationship of the Thracian language to ancient Greek and the Ancient Macedonian language (the extinct language or Greek dialect of ancient Macedon). The Greek language itself may be grouped with the Phrygian language and Armenian language, both of which have been grouped with Thracian in the past.

    Ivan Duridanov publishes his Ezikǎt na trakite (The Language of the Thracians) in which a number of Thracian words and lexical elements are given Balto-Slavic cognates and possible Balto-Slavic cognates. Using Duridanov's Ezikǎt na trakite essay as his basis, in the late 1980s and 1990s the linguist Harvey E. Mayer claimed that the Thracian language was a Southern Baltoidic language. There is no agreement on whether Thracian was even very close to Balto-Slavic itself, let alone agreement on which of the two it was closest to.


    Now A CONTINENT IS CONQUERED FROM SOUTH TO NORTH,
    AND FROM EAST WEST
    ONLY WHEN CONTINENT IS FULL WE HAVE MIGRATION BACK
    THE THRACIAN WERE SPOKEN FROM 6000 BC AND BACK
    CAUSE PELASGIC YAVAN SETTLED IN THARSEIS (THRACIANS)
    THRACIAN WERE SPOKEN FROM GREECE TO POLLAND
    LATER WITH NEW INVASION SLOWLY NEW ELEMENTS ENTER
    AND BOLINTHOS CHANGE TO VIK
    UNDERSTAND THAT


    If Thracian were not Proto Slavic then It would be not that easy areas around Con/polis to speak Slavic incoming Language,
    since R1a is not that Big (10-20%) and only 100 years can give 3 generations not the time to change language total, as a Language with out alphabet before cyrill
    simply cyrill bind more baltic than thracian in his bible so to satisfy some rulers
    do you believe that 50-100 years are enough to change language, from incoming Slavic around Serbia
    to an area outside Con/polis Byzantium?
    how many they were?
    and what about old people all dead?
    and with no alphabet and teachers?
    sound crazy,
    simply thracian was a prot-slavic language, and at slavic invasions to south simply more Baltic elements came,
    the difference was not that big.

    Huns also invaded Balkans Cumans Bardars Ungarians,
    why their language was not spread as slavic?


    400 years of Turkish occupation and Greek language still exists and had 30 million speakers at 1922
    why Turks that ruled 400 years did not change languages as easily as slavic did?
    come on guys, open your eyes,
    Ezikǎt na trakite
    Thracian was proto-slavic
    in fact it was centum that slowly turn to satem and later bind with baltic and became slavic

    open your eyes,
    edu and udo in Greece Uden in baltic area no matter PIE that similarity is big than wassa-wattar with edu and aqua


    Taranis go ask a Thrakologist,
    Thracian are connected with areas from krakovy to Greece and Albania to Russia
    same area Slavic is spoken
    only Romania kept roman
    and Hungaria the hun
    Even modern Greek are the Thracian Idiom of Ancient Greek koine (Thraco-byzantine dialect-idiom)
    and a few Ionic that die today
    1955 Tsolakis Η θρακικη ως βαση της νεας δημοτικης (thracian dialect as basis to modern common Greek language)

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    How yes no

    remember that in Bulgarian Bolinthos is Bol
    Gr Makedonian Bolinthros
    Athenes Bolos
    keep in mind that Slavs that got name after Bulgarian elite rulling over them have assimilated previous inhabitants and took some words from them...

    thus, local Bulgarian words are not good match for this research, only the ones spread among all Slavic people make sense to be used as argument about relation between proto-Slavs and Thracians......


    we still don't know Northern Thracians Dialect and is difficult to find,
    north Thracian is likely very much more related to proto-Slavic as Triballi who lived north of Thrace were probably proto-Slavic tribe as I indicated on topic about Slavic people...

    besides reading Georgiev's work you find more Thracian that exist in Slavic areas,
    Remember that Thracians reach area bigger than we think today
    I am not sure they do....
    think that early Greek historians when claiming Thracians are numerous did put in Thracians all nearby IE people...


    Sorin Mihai Olteanu, a Romanian linguist and Thracologist, recently proposed that the Thracian (as well as the Dacian) language was a centum language in its earlier period, and developed satem features over time.[15] One of the arguments for this idea is that there are many close cognates between Thracian and Ancient Greek.
    perhaps J2b was first there... before R1a
    I2a2 probably came with Slavs...
    non-Slavic Bulgars probably brought some additional R1a...

    so, ancient Thrace was probably J2b (kentum IE) + E-V13 + some R1a (probably satem IE alike to Iranian)
    I am sure that proto-Slavic people were I2a2
    read http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341

    Ivan Duridanov publishes his Ezikǎt na trakite (The Language of the Thracians) in which a number of Thracian words and lexical elements are given Balto-Slavic cognates and possible Balto-Slavic cognates. Using Duridanov's Ezikǎt na trakite essay as his basis, in the late 1980s and 1990s the linguist Harvey E. Mayer claimed that the Thracian language was a Southern Baltoidic language. There is no agreement on whether Thracian was even very close to Balto-Slavic itself, let alone agreement on which of the two it was closest to.
    Ivan Duridanov sounds Bulgarian name... I do not think it's easy for Bulgarian scientist to be neutral (not biased) regarding that issue.... comparable to how hard it would be for Albanian scientist to support anything than Illyrian origin theory... or for Greek scientist to support non-hellenic theory for ancient Macedonians...

    If Thracian were not Proto Slavic then It would be not that easy areas around Con/polis to speak Slavic incoming Language,
    since R1a is not that Big (10-20%) and only 100 years can give 3 generations not the time to change language total, as a Language with out alphabet before cyrill
    it's wrong assumption that proto-Slavic spakers are R1a...
    I think that R1a were divided between iranian dialects and non-IE speakers... I2a2 were probably original Slavic speakers... they originally lived more north - around Danube and in Noricum....

    thracian could have been alike to Iranian...



    simply cyrill bind more baltic than thracian in his bible so to satisfy some rulers do you believe that 50-100 years are enough to change language, from incoming Slavic around Serbia
    to an area outside Con/polis Byzantium?
    how many they were?
    and what about old people all dead?
    and with no alphabet and teachers?
    sound crazy,
    apparently, languages are changed much faster then we are ready to believe.... look at all latin derived languages... and can you apply same argument for Celtic areas...

    simply thracian was a prot-slavic language, and at slavic invasions to south simply more Baltic elements came,
    the difference was not that big.
    same argument hold for Roman province of Illyria...


    Huns also invaded Balkans Cumans Bardars Ungarians,
    why their language was not spread as slavic?
    it's not the same...
    language is not spread by war, they are spread by culture and need to interact with environment....
    warrior tribes are outnumbered and need to use words of subjugated tribes in every day life... so they switch language....
    btw. wonder if Celts were such warrior tribe....
    Thrace was Greek-Roman speaking in time of arrival of Slavs... most of previous people probably moved to safety of Byzantium and the Bulgarians of today origin mostly from Slavs who massively settled there, and from Hunnish Bulgars who rulled over them...
    besides no detailed genetic sampling is done in Bulgaria....


    400 years of Turkish occupation and Greek language still exists and had 30 million speakers at 1922
    why Turks that ruled 400 years did not change languages as easily as slavic did?
    Turks never massivelly settled areas and mixed with locals....
    they just collected money and army from Balkan...
    there were attempts to make collonies...but those people were driven out after liberation.....
    but in areas where Turks did massively settle (in Asia minor) they did largely replace previous languages (how much is Greek spoken in Turkey of today?)

    come on guys, open your eyes,
    Ezikǎt na trakite
    Thracian was proto-slavic
    in fact it was centum that slowly turn to satem and later bind with baltic and became slavic
    Thracians might have been related to proto-Slavic
    but from preserved words Thracian does not look at all as proto-Slavic...
    Illyrian or even Dacian would be much better candidate...

    open your eyes,
    edu and udo in Greece Uden in baltic area no matter PIE that similarity is big than wassa-wattar with edu and aqua
    yes, water ("voda" in Serbian)
    is very important word...very basic part of vocabulary of any language...
    so, yes, that indicates some relation...

    Taranis go ask a Thrakologist,
    Thracian are connected with areas from krakovy to Greece and Albania to Russia
    same area Slavic is spoken
    only Romania kept roman
    and Hungaria the hun
    Magyar language is not Hunish
    Magyars came there after Huns and Avars...
    their language is same group as Finish...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    so, ancient Thrace was probably J2b (kentum IE) + E-V13 + some R1a (probably satem IE alike to Iranian)
    I am sure that proto-Slavic people were I2a2
    nonsence J2b indoeuropean language familly?!?!?
    i thank you that gave to poor thracians a little R1a.

    today romanian Y haplogroups di giacomo 2004 (for Romania)
    haplogroup I 25%
    haplogroup J 15 %
    Haplogroup E 10%
    Haplogroup R (R1a+R1b)= 45%
    other (G, T) 5%

    today bulgaria
    E 12%
    J 17%
    I 36%
    R 32%

    today serbia
    24% E
    11% J
    35% I
    22% R

    so 35% in Serbia (E+J), bulgaria 29% (E+J) and 25% romania (E+J). If
    someone belive you that thracians were E+J+some R1a may think that slavs were I2a+R1b+(some!!!!)R1a!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    nonsence from the first to the last word of you
    Last edited by sir_morphy; 15-03-11 at 02:21. Reason: wrong typing of numbers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Thracians might have been related to proto-Slavic
    but from preserved words Thracian does not look at all as proto-Slavic...
    Illyrian or even Dacian would be much better candidate...
    Dacians were a thracian tribe who spoke the same ''thracian'' language or if u want a ''northern thracian'' language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_morphy View Post
    nonsence J2b indoeuropean language familly?!?!?
    i thank you that gave to poor thracians a little R1a.

    today romanian Y haplogroups di giacomo 2004 (for Romania)
    haplogroup I 25%
    haplogroup J 15 %
    Haplogroup E 10%
    Haplogroup R (R1a+R1b)= 45%
    other (G, T) 5%

    today bulgaria
    E 12%
    J 17%
    I 36%
    R 32%

    today serbia
    24% E
    11% J
    35% I
    22% R

    so 35% in Serbia (E+J), bulgaria 29% (E+J) and 25% romania (E+J). If
    someone belive you that thracians were E+J+some R1a may think that slavs were I2a+R1b+(some!!!!)R1a!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    nonsence from the first to the last word of you
    stereotypes without critical thinking from first to last line from you....

    I2a2 was proto-Slavic there are many many very strong indications for that... non good reason for R1a being proto-Slavic except that majority of Poles and Russians opf today are R1a....

    look at:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341

    it's another thing that it is not politically correct claim that most of today Slavs do not really origin from proto-Slavs

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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_morphy View Post
    Dacians were a thracian tribe who spoke the same ''thracian'' language or if u want a ''northern thracian'' language.
    there is absolutely no evidence for such a claim...
    languages might have been somewhat related, but all we have from both are more or less location names and those are quite different.... e.g. -para ending in Thrace vs. -dava ending in Dacia and Moesia

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    So who were thracians? Indoeuropean people. R1a or R1b. Who can say for sure? And they assimilate natives I2a+E+J. Of course those indoeuropean speakers impose their language to natives. Their language was satem or kentum? What we know is that all of them was conquered by Rome. All of them? What about free thracians (dacians) east of Carpathians mountains? What about those living in today western Ukraine? Were they thracians? All of them lose their language? What about today albanians? Ok Excluding albanians all thracians (or thraco-illirians) were at some point romanized. For sure two thing happened. Some of them prezerved romance language. I would say half of romanized thracians (today romanians and vlach from slavic countries). Another part switch language to a slavic one. If we can take away the slavic ''genetic admixture' from Balkans i think we can take a look at pure thracian romanized people. What was slavic ''admixture''? And how slavs change genetic map of Balkans? And how celts and germanic people change so called ''genetic map of Balkans or genetic map of thracians''? Too many questions and few people who can answer to those questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    look Illyrian now
    http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm

    1/1 alt- (a stream) (in Altus - a hydronym) - liti = to flow
    2/2 barba- (a swamp) - bara
    3/ 3 bra' (brother! (vocative)) *bhra'te'r 'a brother' -brat
    3 /4 brisa (husks of grapes) - no match
    4/5 cleves- (famous) (in Vesclevesis - a personal name) *kleu- (to hear, to listen), Latin clarus (famous), Greek kleos (fame) - čuven
    4.5 /6 lugo- (a pool) - I saw this one explained with same word in Old Slavonic but cannot confirm as I do not know Old Slavonic... there is word 'lug' = grove

    5/7 mag- (great) *meg- (great) - widespread PIE word

    6 /8 metu- (between) (in Metubarbis - a toponym) *medyo- (medium, between) - medju

    7 /9 oseriates (lakes) - Slavic *ozero (a lake), Lithuanian ez'eras (a lake) - jezero/ozero (Ozero in Russian and Ukrainian, jezero in south Slavic)

    7.5 /10 plo- (strong, powerful) - ploča = strong flat stone (e.g. made of concrete)

    8.5 /11 rinos (clouds) -runo (fleece)

    9 /12 sybina (a spear) - Sibinjanin Janko name given to Hungarian knight Janos Hunyadi who was leader of people armed with spears... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hunyadi

    10/13 tertigio (a merchant) Slavic *türgü (a market), Lithuanian tirgus, Albanian trege" (a market) -trg = market, trgovac = merchant

    10.5/14 teuta- (people, a tribe) "European" *teutá- (people, a tribe), Oscan touta (a tribe), Gaulish teuto- (people) - ljudi = people, četa = group of people (used as military unit)

    11.5 / 15 ves- (kind, good) (in Vesclevesis - a personal name) *wesu- (good, kind) - veseo = cheerful


    2 barba - bara Greek Makedonia Barikos and bara in area of Thrace Greece
    3 bra Greek Fra Frater = brother Phrater
    4
    5 Luga Thracian Lago Porto Lagos in Thrace,Λαγος many Lagos in Greek Thrace
    6
    7
    8
    9 Ossa water falls in Thracian many areas with waterfalls were named as Ossa -kissav in Gr Makedonia and Thrace as even in minor asia Phrygian area

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    it's another thing that it is not politically correct claim that most of today Slavs do not really origin from proto-Slavs
    what has to do with our theme?


    i repeat question: where did you read that J2 were indoeuropean speakers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_morphy View Post
    So who were thracians? Indoeuropean people. R1a or R1b. Who can say for sure? And they assimilate natives I2a+E+J. Of course those indoeuropean speakers impose their language to natives. Their language was satem or kentum?
    yes, I forgot that R1b is not negliglible in Bulgaria...
    it might be Celtic or it might be part of Thracian marker...

    Thracians language was satem
    but Iapetoc mention some Romanian guy who claims it was originally kentum... this might be biased theory as Romanians like you are kentum speakers due to their ancestors being romanized.... so they like you want to show Thracians as Romanians...

    What we know is that all of them was conquered by Rome. All of them? What about free thracians (dacians) east of Carpathians mountains? What about those living in today western Ukraine? Were they thracians?
    those are free Dacians...
    not Thracians...
    we can't be easy in putting equality between them as for all we know Dacians and Thracians are different unrelated people...preserved words from the languages are distant... nothing indicates same culture/language...

    who do you speak about when you talk of west Ukraine?
    btw. west Ukraine is also supposed birthplace of Slavs....
    and Romanians cluster in genetic research with Serbs, Croats, east/west Hungary (not centar which was settled by Magyars), and central Ukraine
    this indicates common origin for people living in central Ukraine, Pannonia, and Romania with Serbs and Croats...

    I argue that proto-Slavs were Pannonians, Triballi and Veneti ( see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341) and that they were related to Dacians on one side and Illyrians n other...

    I think that in neolithic cultures ancestors of Dacians would be eastern linear pottery, ancestors of proto-Slavic people would be western linear pottery... and those cultures are related...

    All of them lose their language? What about today albanians? Ok Excluding albanians all thracians (or thraco-illirians) were at some point romanized. For sure two thing happened.
    actually, all "proofs" you read on forums about Albanian language being same as Illyrian are just forum "proofs"....they do not hold as Albanian is completely alien to few Illyrian words whose meaning is preserved.
    Illyrian is dead language, same as Thracian, Dacian, Hittite, Hunnic, Gothic, Celtic of Central Europe, and many many other languages...

    Some of them prezerved romance language. I would say half of romanized thracians (today romanians and vlach from slavic countries). Another part switch language to a slavic one. If we can take away the slavic ''genetic admixture' from Balkans i think we can take a look at pure thracian romanized people. What was slavic ''admixture''? And how slavs change genetic map of Balkans? And how celts and germanic people change so called ''genetic map of Balkans or genetic map of thracians''? Too many questions and few people who can answer to those questions.
    there is abundance of indications that Slavic people were I2a2...
    I did post them on topic http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341
    Romanians are romanized Dacians, Getae, Carpi and other people, but not Thracians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_morphy View Post
    what has to do with our theme?


    i repeat question: where did you read that J2 were indoeuropean speakers?
    where did you read they were not IE speakers?
    where did you read it is actually established as a fact who were carriers of IE language in Europe? there is just a bunch of biased theories...no facts at all...

    especially in time frame when we can speak of Thracians even E-V13 is IE...

    besides J2 are very very likely original Aryans
    (see thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093)
    that would make them in fact very likely original IE speakers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    2 barba - bara Greek Makedonia Barikos and bara in area of Thrace Greece
    3 bra Greek Fra Frater = brother Phrater
    4
    5 Luga Thracian Lago Porto Lagos in Thrace,Λαγος many Lagos in Greek Thrace
    6
    7
    8
    9 Ossa water falls in Thracian many areas with waterfalls were named as Ossa -kissav in Gr Makedonia and Thrace as even in minor asia Phrygian area
    sure, but what is a proof that it is not all due to Slavic people?
    btw. Luga and bra are probably PIE as you have lake and brother in english for example...


    besides, there is area of Serrai/Serres in Greece thrace...that I relate to Serians (Serres are mentioned as nation dwelling upon mount Athos, but also as synonym for Serians in other places where they lived).... you know that in my theory Serians are proto-Serbs...

    but were people of Serrai/Serres same in culture and origin as other Thracians? my guess is not.... if they were, that would imply that Thracians were proto-Slavic... but I think they were not...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The similarity between Thracian and Celtic languages R1b1b2a surely arrived in the region during the first waves of Indo-European incursions, mostly in the 3rd millennium BCE.
    Both scenarios are on list about R1b1b2 : the neolithic or the upper paleolithic post glacial expansion from a southern eastern European glacial refuge thats the last scientific conclusion actually . May be R1b1b2 had spoken an earlier Indo European language during his expansion . Anyway I think (just an opinion) that the proto Indo European language is older than 5000 or 6000 years bp Some eastern migrations as LBK few Caucasian people G2a3 were also may be Indo Europeans in terms of language and spread it on the earlier R1b1b2 people in central Europe or on the Danube river area .
    Nico

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