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Thread: An Approach to ancient Thracian DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    it might be Celtic or it might be part of Thracian marker

    Romanians are romanized Dacians, Getae, Carpi and other people, but not Thracians...
    first phrase: not to forget the over 20% percent of romanian R1b.it is a strong thracian marker. (i think) or northern thracian

    second one:
    hehehe.... the second phrase.. this is KGB theory. Impose to make origins of romanians only from dacians. That's because soviet union wanted to prove that people from Soviet republic of Moldova are a different nation and have different origin!! A close one to slavic people. And after ethogenesis of moldovan people from thracians and slavs came ''bad romanians'' who change their language!!
    I thank you that you mention ''carpi and other people''!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_morphy View Post
    first phrase: not to forget the over 20% percent of romanian R1b.it is a strong thracian marker. (i think) or northern thracian
    I would not bet on R1b being Thracian marker...
    thing is Romanians speak latin derived language because there was enough people from Roman empire who settled the area... many of them were likely R1b....

    another source of R1b are Celtic people who were more or less present throughout Europe...

    and let me add that Romania was home to many tribes during migration period, so any of those people could have brought some R1b...


    second one:
    hehehe.... the second phrase.. this is KGB theory. Impose to make origins of romanians only from dacians. That's because soviet union wanted to prove that people from Soviet republic of Moldova are a different nation and have different origin!! A close one to slavic people. And after ethogenesis of moldovan people from thracians and slavs came ''bad romanians'' who change their language!!
    I thank you that you mention ''carpi and other people''!!
    when you show me proof that Dacians were Thracians I can accept that...
    until there is a proof or very strong set of indications, I consider them different people.... especially because from little that we know abouyt their languages, we know that they named towns quite differently...

    well it is not really about Moldavians...
    Romanians in general are very related to Slavic people....
    generally, in researches Romanians cluster best with people from Serbia and Bosnia ... thus, with Serbs...
    and Serbs are original Slavs according to some historians (e.g. Shafarik)... and Serbs are I2a2 dominant people...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    where did you read they were not IE speakers?
    where did you read it is actually established as a fact who were carriers of IE language in Europe? there is just a bunch of biased theories...no facts at all...

    especially in time frame when we can speak of Thracians even E-V13 is IE...

    besides J2 are very very likely original Aryans
    (see thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093)
    that would make them in fact very likely original IE speakers...
    J2 oryginal aryans? im speachless... !!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_morphy View Post
    J2 oryginal aryans? im speachless... !!!!!!!!!!!!
    J2 spread matches very nicely known locations of Indo-Aryans in Asia... it is also very present in India highest caste but not in lower castes... R1a is present in both high and low castes... and R1a spread show match with later Indo-Scythians..
    so, why would J2 not be marker of Indo-Aryans?


    hehehe.... the second phrase.. this is KGB theory.
    lol, I find it hilarious whenever I see how Romanians are well trained to blame Russians for everything.... btw. there was similar mass-media produced anti-Serb brain conditioning for masses in west Yugoslavia in years before war... so, don't be surprised if Romanians, together with Poles end up as land forces fighting Russians....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post



    when you show me proof that Dacians were Thracians I can accept that...
    until there is a proof or very strong set of indications, I consider them different people.... especially because from little that we know about their languages, we know that they named towns quite differently...
    herodotus "getae are the bravest between the thracians"

    dio cassius: getae and dacians are the same people. romans called them dacians and greeks called them getae. he also said that getaes lived north of haemus mountains and along the danube (north and south)

    and people from dionysopolis name kingdom of Burebista "Thracia"

    http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burebista

    satisfied?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_morphy View Post
    herodotus "getae are the bravest between the thracians"

    dio cassius: getae and dacians are the same people. romans called them dacians and greeks called them getae. he also said that getaes lived north of haemus mountains and along the danube (north and south)

    and people from dionysopolis name kingdom of Burebista "Thracia"

    http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burebista

    satisfied?
    no...
    I want links to actual sentences...
    if it is correct, it is not difficult to find...
    many ancient texts are online now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    J2 spread matches very nicely known locations of Indo-Aryans in Asia... it is also very present in India highest caste but not in lower castes... R1a is present in both high and low castes... and R1a spread show match with later Indo-Scythians..
    so, why would J2 not be marker of Indo-Aryans?
    ... wikipedia information = zero


    j2 is found also in iran
    who can have relatives from susa or pasargade, poor dravidians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    no...
    I want links to actual sentences...
    if it is correct, it is not difficult to find...
    many ancient texts are online now...
    i have a life
    i dont need to prove you anything
    end of story and discution with you
    http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae

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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_morphy View Post
    i have a life
    i dont need to prove you anything
    end of story and discution with you
    http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae
    ok, well, from link you sent:
    Strabo, one of the first ancient sources to mention both, stated that Dacians lived in the western parts of Dacia, "towards Germany and the sources of the Danube", while Getae in the eastern parts, towards the Black Sea, both south and north of the Danube. The ancient geographer also wrote that the Dacians and Getae spoke the same language, after stating the same about Getae and Thracians.[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae

    let's see:

    2 Now the Greeks used to suppose that the Getae were Thracians; and the Getae lived on either side the Ister, as did also the Mysi, these also being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi; from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians and the p177Phrygians and Trojans. And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians,59 the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there. And Poseidonius seems to me to be correct in his conjecture that Homer designates the Mysi in Europe (I mean those in Thrace) when he says, "But back he turned his shining eyes, and looked far away towards the land of the horse-tending Thracians, and of the Mysi, hand-to‑hand fighters"60 for surely, if one should take Homer to mean the Mysi in Asia, the statement would not hang together. Indeed, when Zeus turns his eyes away from the Trojans towards the land of the Thracians, it would be the act of a man who confuses the continents and does not understand the poet's phraseology to connect with Thrace the land of the Asiatic Mysi, who are not "far away," but have a common boundary with the Troad and are situated behind it and on either side of it, and are separated from Thrace by the broad Hellespont; for "back he turned" generally61 means "to the rear," and he who transfers his gaze from the Trojans to the people who are either in the rear of the Trojans 296or p179on their flanks, does indeed transfer his gaze rather far, but not at all "to the rear."62 Again, the appended phrase63 is testimony to this very view, because the poet connected with the Mysi the "Hippemolgi" and "Galactophagi" and "Abii," who are indeed the wagon-dwelling Scythians and Sarmatians. For at the present time these tribes, as well as the Bastarnian tribes, are mingled with the Thracians (more indeed with those outside the Ister, but also with those inside). And mingled with them are also the Celtic tribes — the Boii, the Scordisci, and the Taurisci. However, the Scordisci are by some called "Scordistae"; and the Taurisci are called also "Ligurisci"64 and "Tauristae."65
    ...

    12 But there is also another division of the country which has endured from early times, for some of the people are called Daci, whereas others are called Getae — Getae, those who incline towards the Pontus and the east, and Daci, those who incline in the opposite direction towards Germany and the sources of the Ister. The Daci, I think, were called Daï in early times; whence the slave names "Geta" and "Daüs"156 which prevailed among the Attic people; for this is more probable than that "Daüs" is from those Scythians who are called "Daae,"157 for they live far away in the neighbourhood of Hyrcania, and it is not reasonable to suppose that slaves were brought into Attica from there; for the Attic people were wont either to call their slaves by the same names as those of the nations from which they were brought (as "Lydus" or "Syrus"), or addressed them by names that were prevalent in their countries (as "Manes" or else "Midas" for the Phrygian, or "Tibius" for the Paphlagonian). But though the tribe was raised to such a height by Boerebistas, it has been completely humbled by its own seditions and by the Romans; nevertheless, they are capable, even to‑day, of sending forth an army of forty thousand men. p215 13 The Marisus River flows through their country into the Danuvius,158 on which the Romans used to convey their equipment for war; the "Danuvius" I say, for so they used to call the upper part of the river from near its sources on to the cataracts, I mean the part which in the main flows through the country, of the Daci, 305although they give the name "Ister" to the lower part, from the cataracts on to the Pontus, the part which flows past the country of the Getae. The language of the Daci is the same as that of the Getae. Among the Greeks, however, the Getae are better known because the migrations they make to either side of the Ister are continuous, and because they are intermingled with the Thracians and Mysians. And also the tribe of the Triballi, likewise Thracian, has had this same experience, for it has admitted migrations into this country, because the neighbouring peoples force them159 to emigrate into the country of those who are weaker; that is, the Scythians and Bastarnians and Sauromatians on the far side of the river often prevail to the extent that they actually cross over to attack those whom they have already driven out, and some of them remain there, either in the islands or in Thrace, whereas those160 on the other side are generally overpowered by the Illyrians. Be that as it may, although the Getae and Daci once attained to very great power, so that they actually could send forth an expedition of two hundred thousand men, they now find themselves reduced to as few as forty thousand, and they have come close to the point of yielding obedience to the Romans, though as yet p217they are not absolutely submissive, because of the hopes which they base on the Germans, who are enemies to the Romans.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/7C*.html

    so, Getae are Thracians, speak same language as Dacians... but Dacians live toward Germans and Getae towards Black sea... designation Thracians may easily be about people living in area called Thrace... no data is given about whether language of Thracians and Dacians or Thracians and Getae is same...

    Dacians in time of Strabo are much weaker (can gather 40000 soldiers) than in time of Burebista (could gather 200 000 soldiers)...not completely subdued, as they lay their hopes in Germans....

    interesting is that Germans call themselves Deutch and in Dutch language Germans are Duits...
    is it conceivable that tribal names Deutch/Dutch/Duits, are related to Dacian tribal name?
    worth noting is that R1b is key haplogroup in Germany, while haplogroup I is somewhat less common...
    another peculiar similarity of tribal names is Getae and Goths
    now if Getae are Dacians, and Goths are Germans(Deutch) this is bit too much for coincidence...
    much later Jordanes claims that Getae are same people as Goths...

    33) In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean. To the south dwell the Acatziri, a very brave tribe ignorant of agriculture, who subsist on their flocks and by hunting. (37) Farther away and above the Sea of Pontus are the abodes of the Bulgares, well known from the wrongs done to them by reason of our oppression. From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places. The Altziagiri are near Cherson, where the avaricious traders bring in the goods of Asia. In summer they range the plains, their broad domains, wherever the pasturage for their cattle invites them, and betake themselves in winter beyond the Sea of Pontus. Now the Hunuguri are known to us from the fact that they trade in marten skins. But they have been cowed by their bolder neighbors.

    38) We read that on their first migration the Goths dwelt in the land of Scythia near Lake Maeotis. On the second migration they went to Moesia, Thrace and Dacia, and after their third they dwelt again in Scythia, above the Sea of Pontus. Nor do we find anywhere in their written records legends which tell of their subjection to slavery in Britain or in some other island, or of their redemption by a certain man at the cost of a single horse. Of course if anyone in our city says that the Goths had an origin different from that I have related, let him object. For myself, I prefer to believe what I have read, rather than put trust in old wives' tales.
    (39) To return, then, to my subject. The aforesaid race of which I speak is known to have had Filimer as king while they remained in their first home in Scythia near Maeotis. In their second home, that is in the countries of Dacia, Thrace and Moesia, Zalmoxes reigned, whom many writers of annals mention as a man of remarkable learning in philosophy. Yet even before this they had a learned man Zeuta, and after him Dicineus; and the third was Zalmoxes of whom I have made mention above. Nor did they lack teachers of wisdom. (40) Wherefore the Goths have ever been wiser than other barbarians and were nearly like the Greeks, as Dio relates, who wrote their history and annals with a Greek pen. He says that those of noble birth among them, from whom their kings and priests were appointed, were called first Tarabostesei and then Pilleati. Moreover so highly were the Getae praised that Mars, whom the fables of poets call the god of war, was reputed to have been born among them. Hence Virgil says:
    "Father Gradivus rules the Getic fields."
    (41) Now Mars has always been worshipped by the Goths with cruel rites, and captives were slain as his victims. They thought that he who is the lord of war ought to be appeased by the shedding of human blood. To him they devoted the first share of the spoil, and in his honor arms stripped from the foe were suspended from trees. And they had more than all other races a deep spirit of religion, since the worship of this god seemed to be really bestowed upon their ancestor.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

    now, Huns as bravest race... one of two Hunish people Sabiri, other Altziagiri...
    alziagiri is coin word altzia+ Giri...Giri is possibly about Hurians...Altzia could be about place name or side of world in some language...

    thus, Hunish are again Serian/Hurian pair, same as earlier Germanic Sciri/Hirri, Celtic Scordisci / Helvetti, and last Slavic Serbs / Croats.... interestingly those tribe pairs are mentioned in different times... first Celtic pair, than Germanic pair, than Hunnish pair, than Slavic pair....

    Hunuguri are known for trading with marten skin...
    Croats are known to have traded with marten skin in ancient times...
    their money is now called kuna = marten
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_kuna



    back to Strabo:

    Zalmoxes is religious leader of Dacians in times of Burebista



    Moesi and Tribali are also Thracians...
    Moesi are Thracians who live intermingled with Thracians (?), but also with Sarmatians, Scytians and Celtic people (Boii, Scordisci and Taurisci)... intermingled probably means that in Moesia (along Danube) there are settlements of all of those people all over Moesia without clear teritory borders.... this is possible as Moesians are peaceful, religious people....

    btw. Moesi are vegetarians!
    3 Poseidonius goes on to say of the Mysians that in accordance with their religion they abstain from eating any living thing, and therefore from their flocks as well; and that they use as food honey and milk and cheese, living a peaceable life, and for this reason are called both "god-fearing" and "capnobatae";66
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7C*.html
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 16-03-11 at 01:43.

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    sory

    dacos = wolf Δακος Dagkono Δαγκωνω = i Bite, i tear flesh using teeth, I eat meat
    Lykos is the Greek World for wolf but also Δακος means wolf

    Daci = wolf people, simmilar Lycan if Lycan comes from Greek Lykos and not Λουσιος Lucian (water bath) (c as k or c as ts)

    I don't know in which language it is (ancient lingua)
    but insect @Dacus [email protected] means @olives wolf [email protected]

    Tauriski Ταυρισκοι is the area around Crimea peninsula,
    Tauriski means Bull = cattle people
    remember a great hero with name Thrax (Tyras - (thor) lived in that area

    ,
    Last edited by iapetoc; 17-03-11 at 04:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry. No. What speaks severely against this is that the Slavic language family is closer related with the Baltic languages than with Thracian. Plus, although scarcely attested, the Balts are attested by the sources in Antiquity. Specifically, a West Baltic tribe (that is, akin to the Old Prussians), the Galindians, are mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD. In other words, the Baltic-Slavic split was complete by then, and without doubt, the Baltoslavic-Thracian split was even earlier.
    So, do you agree with A. Paabo theory/papers ( january 2011) that the finnic language ( not uralic-finnic ) infested the black sea area around 2000BC ,. He goes on to bascially say , this finnic language was used as a trading language ( lingua franca) and eventually was the language of the venetic.
    This finnic was used also by by aesti in the baltic sea and the cimbri in jutland.
    Also confirmed by another - Felice Vinci in his book The baltic origins of homers epic tales. More of a migratory/trading book than a "homeric" book

    In regards to the old prussians, did'nt they use Suebi language

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    well i will stay in how yes no post about capnobatai 3 66

    smoke walkers, or carbon walkers or pyrobatai



    Greece




    Bulgaria,

    who knows where else existed,

    why St Constandine and Helen?
    may be not to be punished from Christians?

    why they sacrifice a bull that day? tavros

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    So, do you agree with A. Paabo theory/papers ( january 2011) that the finnic language ( not uralic-finnic ) infested the black sea area around 2000BC ,. He goes on to bascially say , this finnic language was used as a trading language ( lingua franca) and eventually was the language of the venetic.
    It's the first time I hear this, and frankly, none of this makes any sense. What do you mean by "Finnic" if not "Uralic-Finnic"?

    We do not know what languages the Baltic "Venedi" spoke, but there is this: consider that "Venedi" was, with high probability, a Germanic exonym for the peoples living towards their east, and that the Venedi didn't constitute a coherent ethnolinguistic group (though it stands to reason that they were - with high likelihood - Baltic- and Slavic-speaking peoples). Indeed, much later, during early medieval ages, the term "Wends" is collectively used for a variety of West Slavic peoples who refer to themselves by completely different names. For a comparison, take a look at the Germanic word "Walha-" (foreigner), which can be today found in place names like "Wales", "Wallonia" and "Wallachia". Does it mean that because they have the similar name the Welsh, Walloons and Wallachians must speak the same language?

    This finnic was used also by by aesti in the baltic sea and the cimbri in jutland.
    The Cimbri, in my opinion, spoke the Pre-Germanic Language outlined here in this thread.

    Also confirmed by another - Felice Vinci in his book The baltic origins of homers epic tales. More of a migratory/trading book than a "homeric" book
    Why should they be Baltic? It seems kind of unlikely. Apart from amber trade, the ancient Greeks had no contact to the Baltic region. It seems very sensationalistic and implausible to suggest the Homeric tales originated in the Baltic.

    In regards to the old prussians, did'nt they use Suebi language
    No.

    What, in your opinion, was this "Suebi language"? The Suebi were a bewildering group of Germanic peoples in Antiquity, living along the Elbe river, who spoke Germanic. Parts of them moved into Galicia during the migrations period, while others became part of the Alemanni and moved to southern Germany - the name "Swabia" ("Schwaben" in German) is derived from them.

    In contrast, the Old Prussians are well-known to have spoken a Baltic language. During the medieval ages (specifically, the Northern Crusades), the Prussians were conquered by the Teutonic Order. In the subsequent centuries, the Prussians were gradually Germanized - though, the Old Prussian language itself lingered to the 17th or 18th century. The East Prussian dialect of German (which in itself is now virtually extinct) also inherited a fair number of vocabulary from Old Prussian.

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    Great explanation Taranis. Information about Baltic Veneti makes perfect sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I
    For a comparison, take a look at the Germanic word "Walha-" (foreigner), which can be today found in place names like "Wales", "Wallonia" and "Wallachia". Does it mean that because they have the similar name the Welsh, Walloons and Wallachians must speak the same language?
    actually, they did speak same language...
    word is related to areas and people where populations spoke reminders of latin based languages ... in some cases latin language was lost but name stayed (e.g. in Wales which used to be stronghold of Roman empire with many settlements of latin speakers)...

    equivalent in Slavic languages is "Vlah"..
    word is used in medieval Russian primary chronicle to denote invaders that in fact were latin speakers who were spreading borders of Roman empire... there are "Vlah" villages throughout Balkan - in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, Albania... there were some in Croatia till 18th century... big chunk of what is now Romania used to carry name Wallachia


    as for languages of Suebi, Cimbri, Veneti... those are all more or less likely assumptions...

    Suebi are very likely to have spoken some variant of Germanic language, as 'Schwaben'' represent clear continuity of tribal name and this tribal name is often used for all Germanic people.... (e.g. in Slavic lands Germans = Schwaben which tells us that key Germanic people that Slavs knew the best were Suebi...this speaks about possible locations of proto-Slavs that coincide more or less with known Vistula and Baltic Veneti locations)

    though I am confused with the North sea being called Germanic sea and in same time the Baltic sea being called Suebic sea .. actually this was in times when Veneti/Venedi are mentioned on Baltic... if Germani = Schwaben = Suebi why one sea being Germanic and other one just next to it being Suebic?

    what if Suebi were I1 people and original Germani were more R1b people or mix of R1b and I? afterall it is suggested in historical sources that word German came to existence in order to identify original Celts... though I keep thinking that it has something to do with province of Kerman/Germania in Persia that had meaning battle/bravery and haplogroup I because mention of Gomer people matches island of I2a in Cappadocia Asia minor and those people were later called white Syrians......

    Gomer ancestors of Germanic people gave in Asia minor Cimmerians (proposed ancestors of Cimbri) and interestingly that area is I2a island now...tribal name of Cimmerians is related to word gimmri = hero

    in my opinon Gomer = Cimmerians = Serians = Zeruiani whose land according to manuscript of Bavarian geographer was so big that all Slavs origin from them..
    note that tribal name Serians may be related to iranian ser/sar = head, zerre/zærdæ = heart
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages
    also 'suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
    http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm


    another confusing point is that Srbi (Serbs) who are people with tribal name related to Suebi did according to official history come to Balkan from area they called Boika (land of Boii) that neighbours Frankia and that can only be identified as east Bavaria/west Bohemia area (Bavaria = land of Boii, Bohemia = land of Boii)...and we can even see local hotspot of I2a2 there and Serb related place names...according to same historic source this is where they originally dwellt...
    interrestingly tribal name Boii in Slavic languages = battle...
    if Ser = head, would not Ser Boii be key Boii people... something like there are Scythians and Royal Scythians?


    I think similarity of tribal names Srbi (Serbs) and Suebi comes from original tribal name of haplogroup I.... also names of Sardinia and Swedes comes from the same origin....

    regarding the languages spoken by Veneti and Cimbri, we do not know much about language of Veneti, and if there is some real historic reference regarding language of Cimbri I would like to hear more about it......

    to further confuse you, from what I see we cannot even be sure that Germanic people were not originally speaking Slavic-alike languages but than have mixed with Celtic and other people and adopted big chunks of their vocabulary...we also cannot be sure that Slavic people were not originally speaking Germanic-alike languages but were influenced heavily by the similar IE language of iranian Sarmatians (btw. could Sarmatians be Sar+Madai meaning key tribe of iranian Madai) ...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 29-04-11 at 23:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    actually, they did speak same language...
    word is related to populations that were reminders of latin based languages ... in some cases latin language was lost but name stayed (e.g. in Wales which used to be stronghold of Roman empire with many settlements of latin speakers)...

    equivalent in Slavic languages is "Vlah"..
    word is used in medieval Russian primary chronicle to denote latin speaking people of Roman empire... there are "Vlah" villages throughout Balkan - in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, Albania... there were some in Croatia till 18th century... big chunk of what is now Romania used to carry name Wallachia
    Yes, you are right about that, but I was refering to these modern place for the sake of an argument.

    as for languages of Suebi, Cimbri, Veneti... those are all more or less likely assumptions...
    Suebi are very likely to have spoken some variant of Germanic language, as 'Schwaben'' represent clear continuity of tribal name, but we do not know much about language of Veneti, and if there is some real historic reference regarding language of Cimbri I would like to hear more about it......
    With regard for the Veneti, if you read Ptolemy it's clear that they were not a homogenous group - he speaks of "greater" and "lesser" Venedic races. I think it's reasonably plausible to assume that they spoke Baltic and Slavic languages - it's clear that they were neither Germanic nor Iranic, for instance. And we know that the term "Wends" is used later on for Slavic peoples. It would make verymuch sense if this is a Germanic exonym.

    As for Cimbri, check out the thread I made about the relationship of Celtic and Pre-Germanic, it makes a strong case for the Cimbri being speakers of Pre-Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    It's the first time I hear this, and frankly, none of this makes any sense. What do you mean by "Finnic" if not "Uralic-Finnic"?

    We do not know what languages the Baltic "Venedi" spoke, but there is this: consider that "Venedi" was, with high probability, a Germanic exonym for the peoples living towards their east, and that the Venedi didn't constitute a coherent ethnolinguistic group (though it stands to reason that they were - with high likelihood - Baltic- and Slavic-speaking peoples). Indeed, much later, during early medieval ages, the term "Wends" is collectively used for a variety of West Slavic peoples who refer to themselves by completely different names. For a comparison, take a look at the Germanic word "Walha-" (foreigner), which can be today found in place names like "Wales", "Wallonia" and "Wallachia". Does it mean that because they have the similar name the Welsh, Walloons and Wallachians must speak the same language?



    The Cimbri, in my opinion, spoke the Pre-Germanic Language outlined here in this thread.



    Why should they be Baltic? It seems kind of unlikely. Apart from amber trade, the ancient Greeks had no contact to the Baltic region. It seems very sensationalistic and implausible to suggest the Homeric tales originated in the Baltic.



    No.

    What, in your opinion, was this "Suebi language"? The Suebi were a bewildering group of Germanic peoples in Antiquity, living along the Elbe river, who spoke Germanic. Parts of them moved into Galicia during the migrations period, while others became part of the Alemanni and moved to southern Germany - the name "Swabia" ("Schwaben" in German) is derived from them.

    In contrast, the Old Prussians are well-known to have spoken a Baltic language. During the medieval ages (specifically, the Northern Crusades), the Prussians were conquered by the Teutonic Order. In the subsequent centuries, the Prussians were gradually Germanized - though, the Old Prussian language itself lingered to the 17th or 18th century. The East Prussian dialect of German (which in itself is now virtually extinct) also inherited a fair number of vocabulary from Old Prussian.
    Link below is long but interesting
    http://www.paabo.ca/veneti/

    It was written in 2006 and updated in January 2011. Also confirmed by the others I mentioned.

    Its basically says that the finnic speakers pre union with uralic speakers, where traders in the baltic sea, they over time, had outposts in the black sea, these outposts where the eneti of the town enete ( modern Samsun) , these eneti , fled the kaska invasions from the crimien area, and joined with another trading power, the trojans. After the trojan wars, the eneti migrated through thrace, into illyrian lands and eventulally the adriatic area of veneto. they then established 2 routes for an amber and fur trade. ( see link for maps). the trade to Jutland led to the migration of these veneti to brittany.

    Tacitus, described this language as a britanic ( pre anglo-saxon) language.

    There are also, sites which have a finnic-basque link as well as a Finnic -Galician link. be it linguistic but also gene link.

    Of course, I am skeptical in that I need some questions answered, like, why are all the venetic inscriptions only in the veneto and not in denmark and baltic areas, and others

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    another link, these are pre slavic times

    http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgu...=0CCwQ9QEwBDge

    http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name.html


    as for the suebi tacitus says
    For Tacitus, the Suebi comprise the Semnones, who are "the oldest and noblest of the Suebi";[7] the Langobardi;[8] the seven tribes of Jutland and Holstein: Reudigni, Aviones, Anglii, Varini, Eudoses, Suarini, Nuitones;[8] the Hermunduri on the Elbe;[9] three tribes along the Danube: Naristi, Marcomanni, Quadi;[10] the Marsigni and Buri.[11] Then there is a mountain range, and beyond that, in the drainage system of the Vistula, Tacitus places five tribes of the Lugii including the Harii, Helveconae, Manimi, Helisii and Naharvali;[11] the Gothones, Rugii, Lemovii along the Baltic Sea;[11] all the states of the Suiones, located in peninsular Scandinavia;[12] and finally the non-Germanic Aestii,[13] and the Sitones, beyond the Aestii along the Baltic yet "continuous with the Suiones".[13] Says Tacitus then: "Here Suebia ends."[14]
    But few clues to the identity of the Suebi are given by Tacitus. They can be identified by their fashion of the hair style called the "Suebian knot", which "distinguishes the freeman from the slave";[15] in other words, was intended as a badge of social rank. The same passage points out that chiefs "use an even more elaborate style."


    I assume, that subi refers to tribes that had access to the baltic sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    But few clues to the identity of the Suebi are given by Tacitus. They can be identified by their fashion of the hair style called the "Suebian knot", which "distinguishes the freeman from the slave";[15] in other words, was intended as a badge of social rank. The same passage points out that chiefs "use an even more elaborate style."

    I assume, that subi refers to tribes that had access to the baltic sea.
    yes, that can be explanation - Suebi = free as opposed to the ones who willingly subjugate to other peoples... slave is not opposite of freeman, as slaves are obtained in wars and thus not from the tribes who willingly subjugate but from the ones who decide to try to stay free...

    note the cult of thracian horseman or Sabazios (= Saba + Zeus)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

    and thracian word sabazias = ‘free'
    http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

    again, accidentally or not, hand gesture typical for cult of Sabazios is identical to the one used by Serbs to express their identity...


    so, we have tribal names:

    Boii = battle

    German = battle, hero, seed / genuine (original Celts)

    German = Gomer = Cimmerians (= Cimbri ?) = Cappadocians = white Syrians (? = Seneca's Serians = ? Zeruiani whose lands are so big that all Slavs come from them) = hero

    Suebi = free

    we have king of Cimbri having name (or title?) Boiorix (= king of Boii)


    I think this is about haplogroup I people...

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Link below is long but interesting
    http://www.paabo.ca/veneti/

    It was written in 2006 and updated in January 2011. Also confirmed by the others I mentioned.

    Its basically says that the finnic speakers pre union with uralic speakers, where traders in the baltic sea, they over time, had outposts in the black sea, these outposts where the eneti of the town enete ( modern Samsun) , these eneti , fled the kaska invasions from the crimien area, and joined with another trading power, the trojans. After the trojan wars, the eneti migrated through thrace, into illyrian lands and eventulally the adriatic area of veneto. they then established 2 routes for an amber and fur trade. ( see link for maps). the trade to Jutland led to the migration of these veneti to brittany.
    None of this makes sense, to be honest.

    Tacitus, described this language as a britanic ( pre anglo-saxon) language.
    No, Tacitus talks about the Aestii.

    There are also, sites which have a finnic-basque link as well as a Finnic -Galician link. be it linguistic but also gene link.
    It makes no sense, though.

    Of course, I am skeptical in that I need some questions answered, like, why are all the venetic inscriptions only in the veneto and not in denmark and baltic areas, and others
    Simple: the Adriatic (V)eneti (note that the spelling variant "Enetoi" also exists) and the Baltic Venedi were completely unrelated. The Adriatic Veneti spoke a language similar to the Italic languageas, whereas the Baltic Venedi probably spoke early Baltic/Slavic.

    Also, the "Veneti" of Gaul were also completely unrelated, since they were a Celtic people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    No, Tacitus talks about the Aestii.
    Tacitus says the britonic is similar to the finnic and the finnic was the language of the aesti
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...finnic&f=false




    Simple: the Adriatic (V)eneti (note that the spelling variant "Enetoi" also exists) and the Baltic Venedi were completely unrelated. The Adriatic Veneti spoke a language similar to the Italic languageas, whereas the Baltic Venedi probably spoke early Baltic/Slavic.

    Also, the "Veneti" of Gaul were also completely unrelated, since they were a Celtic people.
    I think they could have been related prior to the VeneDI becoming slavitized. When did the slavs migrate there?
    I also agree that the venedi of the baltic area which ended up being slavitized where no longer related to the adriatic veneto, but, I was wanting to know how they got there, because the original people of the veneto where the euganei and east of them where the carni. Homer traces them to the black sea area, a city called enete ( later called amisus and now Samsun).

    The original venedi of the baltics where initially not slavic as you would know.

    I am guessing then that you believe that the Eneti originated from the black sea. My issue is that I cannot find hittite script on them, yet find script on the trojans.

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    that is just 2 thoughts,

    1) Veneto in Byzantines was Blue team at Justinianus time,
    could Veneti be Blue eyes people?

    2) if I don't connect Veneto with Venice but with another state and city,
    Wienn Vienna Βιεννη, could Veneti be the first Wienn people?

    just wondering

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    There was a big settlement of Celts/prot-celts/or Italic in Bohemia in first millennium BC. We know there was a celtic influence in culture and pottery where poland is now in same time. I suspect there could have been farthest reaching east celtic tribe, possibly called Veneti, that ruled for some time there over local (whatever they were). With time they must have gotten slavonized, with ever stronger slavic influence. It's possible that remnants of Veneti tribe survived till 1 000 AD as Vieleti that settled in Polabia, north of Berlin, eventually getting Germanized.

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    so you all rule out the link provided in post #68 ..link #2

    a link which shows old tribeable area at the time prior to slavic encrounchment into europe.

    On the thracian DNA trail, does it not show that they where related to the trojans and had a luwian common language

    http://www.palaeolexicon.com/default...Language_ID=16

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    "Tacitus says the britonic is similar to the finnic and the finnic was the language of the aesti
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...finnic&f=false"


    One likely interepretation is that Aestii was the name used by Tacitus to refer to all tribes who lived East(Aesti)ward of the Suiones (Scandinavians). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti)

    According to this interpretation the Latin word Aestii is similar to an Old German word (sorry I don't know it) meaning East, which was used by Germanic tribes to refer 'Eastward' tribes. It should be remembered that Tacitus himself only recorded information he had obtained from others and it is quite likely that Aestii is a descriptive name rather than original name of the tribe as they had been referring to themselves in their own language.

    These generic Aestii were composed of pre Baltic (later Lithuanian, Latvian, Prussian and other) and also Finnic (later Estonian, Finnish, Sami) tribes. Their languages were very different as they are now, Finnic not belonging to IE language group, but genetically the peoples are very similar.

    Regarding similarity of Britonic to Aestii this is a bit puzzling. It might be that the languages were similar in their rhythm, or in some similar words and grammar retained from PIE... For instant Taranis compared the word Tauta (peoples) in Gothic, Pre Germanic, Gaulish which was very similar to Baltic, too. So at that time were could have been many similarities between many IE languages.

    Again, Tacitus wasn’t there to judge and the only Aestii word he gives is for amber “an apparently Latinised form, glesum (cf. Latvian glīsas). This is the only word of their language recorded from antiquity, but seems to be Germanic in origin (from Gothic glas).[3]

    If we agree to this interpretation of Tacitus, then Aestii included both Finnic who spoke finnic languages and also Baltic people, who spoke pre-baltic languages.

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