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Thread: An Approach to ancient Thracian DNA

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    [QUOTE=zanipolo;371144]so you all rule out the link provided in post #68 ..link #2

    a link which shows old tribeable area at the time prior to slavic encrounchment into europe.

    QUOTE]

    I'm pretty sure slavic tribes were always in europe.

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    [QUOTE=LeBrok;371149]
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    so you all rule out the link provided in post #68 ..link #2

    a link which shows old tribeable area at the time prior to slavic encrounchment into europe.

    QUOTE]

    I'm pretty sure slavic tribes were always in europe.

    I dount very much that the slavs where in europe prior to 1000BC because as all linguistic and historical scholars have noted, they do not even know/knew a word for amber which was the major trading item, a item which was even traded to ramses of egypt, as per this quote

    Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology whatsoever, be it in the domain of seafaring, sea fishing, boat building, or sea trade. Especially striking is the absence of a Proto-Slavic word for amber, the most important item of export from the shores of the Baltic to the Mediterranean. In view of this, the very fact that Ptolemy refers to the Baltic as the Venedic Bay appears to rule out a possible identification of the Veneti of his times with the Slavs.

    I would like to find out when the slavs did arrive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]



    According to this interpretation the Latin word Aestii is similar to an Old German word (sorry I don't know it) meaning East, which was used by Germanic tribes to refer 'Eastward' tribes. It should be remembered that Tacitus himself only recorded information he had obtained from others and it is quite likely that Aestii is a descriptive name rather than original name of the tribe as they had been referring to themselves in their own language.
    I initially thought the same thing, but I now have doubts.

    We do agree though that baltic tribes, had either a baltic, norse(scandinavian), finnic or germanic language

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I initially thought the same thing, but I now have doubts.

    We do agree though that baltic tribes, had either a baltic, norse(scandinavian), finnic or germanic language

    If we use the term Baltic in a geographic sense it may mean tribes living around the Baltic sea=Baltic, Norse(Germanic), Finnic.

    But the common understanding of Baltic people include only those tribes that speak Baltic languages - Lithuanian, Latvian, Prussian, etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts):



    The wiki on the Baltic tribes tells that their historic homeland were much larger that it is now or was in the c.1200 C.E

    "Some of the major authorities on Balts, such as Būga, Vasmer, Toporov and Trubachov, in conducting etymological studies of eastern European river names, were able to identify in certain regions names of specifically Baltic provenance, which most likely indicate where the Balts lived in prehistoric times. This information is summarized and synthesized by Marija Gimbutas in The Balts (1963) to obtain a likely proto-Baltic homeland. Its borders are approximately: from a line on the Pomeranian coast eastward to include or nearly include the present-day sites of Warsaw, Kiev, and Kursk, northward through Moscow to the River Berzha, westward in an irregular line to the coast of the Gulf of Riga, north of Riga."

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    Baltic (indoeuropean) tribes came to the Baltic sea region arround 2000 BCE.
    And Fenni mentioned by Tacitus, could have been Sami, who resided in the reagion since the ice age (10 000 BCE) http://stravaganzastravaganza.blogsp...rehistory.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There was a big settlement of Celts/prot-celts/or Italic in Bohemia in first millennium BC. We know there was a celtic influence in culture and pottery where poland is now in same time. I suspect there could have been farthest reaching east celtic tribe, possibly called Veneti, that ruled for some time there over local (whatever they were). With time they must have gotten slavonized, with ever stronger slavic influence. It's possible that remnants of Veneti tribe survived till 1 000 AD as Vieleti that settled in Polabia, north of Berlin, eventually getting Germanized.
    In regard for Bohemia, in my opinion the area was Celtic-speaking, and became only Germanicized between the 2nd century BC and the 1st century AD. The main Celtic tribe of this area was the Boii (which actually means "Cattle", not "Battle" as how-yes-no asserted), from which the names "Bohemia" ("Boiohaemum" - "Boii home") and "Bavaria" also derive. It seems likely to me that the pressure of Germanic migrations from the north caused the Boii to eventually abandon their homeland and migrate southwards:

    - There were Boii who settled in the Pannonian basin, and were present there as late as the 1st century AD.

    - Parts of the Boii participated in the invasion of Greece and became part of the Galatians in Anatolia later on.

    - Parts of the Boii invaded northern Italy, seizing Etruscan lands and renaming the city of Felsina into Bononia (modern Bologna).

    - Strabo (1st century BC) refers to the areas north of the Danube as the "Boiian desert" (ie, the areas deserted by the Boii), and says that "Boiohaemum" has become occupied by the Germanic Markomanni.

    - Caesar refers to a small fraction of Boii that were affiliated with the Helveti and invaded Gaul in the 1st century BC.

    - Even by the 1st/2nd century AD, however, there were Celtic remnants living in Germania. Ptolemy lists many towns which have readily identifiable Celtic names, some as far north and east as Silesia.

    - One undoubtly Celtic tribe that persisted in Germania was the Cotini (or "Gotini"), of which Tactitus says that they spoke the Gaulish language, which lived in the approximate area of modern-day Slovakia.

    From what I know, there is however no Celtic evidence towards the northeast beyond Silesia or the western Carpathians.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Tacitus says the britonic is similar to the finnic and the finnic was the language of the aesti
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...finnic&f=false
    Where do you take from that the Aesti spoke Finnic? I do not know if the Aesti and the Estonians were actually related.

    I think they could have been related prior to the VeneDI becoming slavitized. When did the slavs migrate there?
    I also agree that the venedi of the baltic area which ended up being slavitized where no longer related to the adriatic veneto, but, I was wanting to know how they got there, because the original people of the veneto where the euganei and east of them where the carni. Homer traces them to the black sea area, a city called enete ( later called amisus and now Samsun).
    There is simply no reason to assume that the Venedi of the Baltic spoke the same language as the Adriatic Veneti.

    The original venedi of the baltics where initially not slavic as you would know.
    The Venedi, as stated before, were not a homogenous group. Ptolemy is very clear about that.

    I am guessing then that you believe that the Eneti originated from the black sea. My issue is that I cannot find hittite script on them, yet find script on the trojans.
    I didn't say that. Why are you implying that I believe certain things without me having ever said them? The idea that the Eneti originated from Anatolia (black sea shores) was a Roman one, but I don't know how accurate it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    "Tacitus says the britonic is similar to the finnic and the finnic was the language of the aesti
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...finnic&f=false"


    One likely interepretation is that Aestii was the name used by Tacitus to refer to all tribes who lived East(Aesti)ward of the Suiones (Scandinavians). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti)

    According to this interpretation the Latin word Aestii is similar to an Old German word (sorry I don't know it) meaning East, which was used by Germanic tribes to refer 'Eastward' tribes. It should be remembered that Tacitus himself only recorded information he had obtained from others and it is quite likely that Aestii is a descriptive name rather than original name of the tribe as they had been referring to themselves in their own language.

    These generic Aestii were composed of pre Baltic (later Lithuanian, Latvian, Prussian and other) and also Finnic (later Estonian, Finnish, Sami) tribes. Their languages were very different as they are now, Finnic not belonging to IE language group, but genetically the peoples are very similar.

    Regarding similarity of Britonic to Aestii this is a bit puzzling. It might be that the languages were similar in their rhythm, or in some similar words and grammar retained from PIE... For instant Taranis compared the word Tauta (peoples) in Gothic, Pre Germanic, Gaulish which was very similar to Baltic, too. So at that time were could have been many similarities between many IE languages.

    Again, Tacitus wasn’t there to judge and the only Aestii word he gives is for amber “an apparently Latinised form, glesum (cf. Latvian glīsas). This is the only word of their language recorded from antiquity, but seems to be Germanic in origin (from Gothic glas).[3]

    If we agree to this interpretation of Tacitus, then Aestii included both Finnic who spoke finnic languages and also Baltic people, who spoke pre-baltic languages.
    Great points there, Dagne. I think I find it pretty compelling that the Venedi spoke Baltic (or-Pre-Baltic, if you will - given the time-frame this is entirely possible), or Finnic languages. Given how the ethnic makeup looks like later on (Baltic, Finnic people). However, it is also possible that some of the Venedi living to the south and east (away from the Baltic Sea) actually spoke early Slavic. That we do not know.

    I also think that this didn't preclude the German people much later on from applying the term "Venedi" to the Slavs who had settled up to the Elbe. In fact, the term "Wendland" is informally still used today for an area of northern Germany (roughly corresponding with eastern Lower Saxony, northern Saxony-Anhalt, northwestern Brandenburg and Mecklemburg).

    Where I am not so sure is with the etymology of "Aestii" as "Eastern Ones". In Gothic for instance, the word for "east" was "austr".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    In regard for Bohemia, in my opinion the area was Celtic-speaking, and became only Germanicized between the 2nd century BC and the 1st century AD. The main Celtic tribe of this area was the Boii (which actually means "Cattle", not "Battle" as how-yes-no asserted), from which the names "Bohemia" ("Boiohaemum" - "Boii home") and "Bavaria" also derive. It seems likely to me that the pressure of Germanic migrations from the north caused the Boii to eventually abandon their homeland and migrate southwards:

    - There were Boii who settled in the Pannonian basin, and were present there as late as the 1st century AD.

    - Parts of the Boii participated in the invasion of Greece and became part of the Galatians in Anatolia later on.

    - Parts of the Boii invaded northern Italy, seizing Etruscan lands and renaming the city of Felsina into Bononia (modern Bologna).

    - Strabo (1st century BC) refers to the areas north of the Danube as the "Boiian desert" (ie, the areas deserted by the Boii), and says that "Boiohaemum" has become occupied by the Germanic Markomanni.

    - Caesar refers to a small fraction of Boii that were affiliated with the Helveti and invaded Gaul in the 1st century BC.

    - Even by the 1st/2nd century AD, however, there were Celtic remnants living in Germania. Ptolemy lists many towns which have readily identifiable Celtic names, some as far north and east as Silesia.

    - One undoubtly Celtic tribe that persisted in Germania was the Cotini (or "Gotini"), of which Tactitus says that they spoke the Gaulish language, which lived in the approximate area of modern-day Slovakia.

    From what I know, there is however no Celtic evidence towards the northeast beyond Silesia or the western Carpathians.



    Where do you take from that the Aesti spoke Finnic? I do not know if the Aesti and the Estonians were actually related.





    The Venedi, as stated before, were not a homogenous group. Ptolemy is very clear about that.



    I didn't say that. Why are you implying that I believe certain things without me having ever said them? The idea that the Eneti originated from Anatolia (black sea shores) was a Roman one, but I don't know how accurate it is.



    Great points there, Dagne. I think I find it pretty compelling that the Venedi spoke Baltic (or-Pre-Baltic, if you will - given the time-frame this is entirely possible), or Finnic languages. Given how the ethnic makeup looks like later on (Baltic, Finnic people). However, it is also possible that some of the Venedi living to the south and east (away from the Baltic Sea) actually spoke early Slavic. That we do not know.

    I also think that this didn't preclude the German people much later on from applying the term "Venedi" to the Slavs who had settled up to the Elbe. In fact, the term "Wendland" is informally still used today for an area of northern Germany (roughly corresponding with eastern Lower Saxony, northern Saxony-Anhalt, northwestern Brandenburg and Mecklemburg).

    Where I am not so sure is with the etymology of "Aestii" as "Eastern Ones". In Gothic for instance, the word for "east" was "austr".

    the aesti
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti
    check the roman map of 125AD, the slavs are still in the area north of the crimia

    Finnic Language Descent


    aesti are finnic that became estonian


    Note: finnic represent pre ugalic-finnic

    note, my fault in using the word guess, I meant assume, but then again I should not assume, sorry for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    If we use the term Baltic in a geographic sense it may mean tribes living around the Baltic sea=Baltic, Norse(Germanic), Finnic.

    But the common understanding of Baltic people include only those tribes that speak Baltic languages - Lithuanian, Latvian, Prussian, etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts):



    The wiki on the Baltic tribes tells that their historic homeland were much larger that it is now or was in the c.1200 C.E

    "Some of the major authorities on Balts, such as Būga, Vasmer, Toporov and Trubachov, in conducting etymological studies of eastern European river names, were able to identify in certain regions names of specifically Baltic provenance, which most likely indicate where the Balts lived in prehistoric times. This information is summarized and synthesized by Marija Gimbutas in The Balts (1963) to obtain a likely proto-Baltic homeland. Its borders are approximately: from a line on the Pomeranian coast eastward to include or nearly include the present-day sites of Warsaw, Kiev, and Kursk, northward through Moscow to the River Berzha, westward in an irregular line to the coast of the Gulf of Riga, north of Riga."
    your map is a bit too "new" that is, 2000 years too new

    maybe this one.........................note the position of the fenni
    Figure 1.4


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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    In regard for Bohemia, in my opinion the area was Celtic-speaking, and became only Germanicized between the 2nd century BC and the 1st century AD. The main Celtic tribe of this area was the Boii (which actually means "Cattle", not "Battle" as how-yes-no asserted), from which the names "Bohemia" ("Boiohaemum" - "Boii home") and "Bavaria" also derive.
    I think I did emphasize that in Slavic languages Boii = Boj = battle
    Vojnik/Bojovnik = soldier, warrior

    while I can imagine people having for own nation tribal names related to heroes, battle, warrior......I can not imagine people having a selfname cattle... that interpretation can only origin from neighbouring languages e.g. due to Boii beiing rich in cattle...... this is very strong indication that language of Celtic Boii might have been closer to early Slavic than to old Irish or Germanic...


    It seems likely to me that the pressure of Germanic migrations from the north caused the Boii to eventually abandon their homeland and migrate southwards:

    - There were Boii who settled in the Pannonian basin, and were present there as late as the 1st century AD.
    true...
    btw. according to Byzantine emperor Serbs came to Balkan from the land that they in their language call Boiki. The land is beyond Turkey (Turkey was name used for Hungary due to Avars and Huns...) and neighbours Frankia....
    This reference of north or west from Hungary, neighbour to Frankish state taken together with area of south Bohemia being local hotspot of I2a2 (3 times more than in the rest of Czech republic) and having place names such as Srby and Sorviodurum, this is clear reference to land of Boii = west Bohemia+ east Bavaria).... is clear confirmation that Serbs came to Balkan from land of Boii

    Now he also says where they have also originally dwellt... and we know that Boii oiginally dwellt in these areas...

    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

    so why would it be so hard to suppose that
    Serboi = ser + Boii = head/leading (in iranian languages, but also evident in english title 'sir'/'ser') + Boii

    Sir is an honorific used as a title (see Knight), or as a courtesy title to address a man without using his given or family name in some English speaking cultures. It is often used in formal correspondence (Dear Sir, Right Reverend Sir).
    The term is often reserved for use only towards equals, one of superior rank or status, such as an educator or commanding officer, an elder (especially by a minor), or as a form of address from a merchant to a customer.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir


    related people to Boii or in fact their south most branch were Scordisci/Serdi which is again same tribal name as tribal name Serbi....

    if many central Europe Celts were germanized, why would some not be slavicized? e.g. due to the influence of the language spoken by iranian Sarmatians who settled throughout east Europe?

    but even more, why do we expect that Celtic cultures of central Europe spoke same Celtic language as old Irish? what if it was language much closer to the language of early Slavs?



    - Parts of the Boii participated in the invasion of Greece and became part of the Galatians in Anatolia later on.
    tribe known as Serdi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi




    - Strabo (1st century BC) refers to the areas north of the Danube as the "Boiian desert" (ie, the areas deserted by the Boii), and says that "Boiohaemum" has become occupied by the Germanic Markomanni.
    this area is today Vojvodina
    which is a word whose origin is normally seen as teritorial unit related to military rank of Vojvoda (Voj/Boj + voditi = battle + lead)

    but it might be in fact coin word = Boii + large water = Boi/Voi +vodina...

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    Zanipolo, Ptolemy (2nd century AD) actually explicitly mentions the Galindians ("Galindae").

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    I still don't get it

    1 we know that Thracians were R1a by tombs exams, Although being I2 solve many problems,

    we know that Thracians had some simmilar with Myceneans burring customs,

    in the area that once was Thracia today dominant is I-Ydna, meaning that majority of R1a moved

    the link that zanipolo gave us is connecting Thracians with Slavic languages in some east Europe countries I-Ydna is high,

    on the other hand I read in a post ( sorry don't remember name, plz excuse) that Daci and Gaete in ancient times could be Dutc -Deutch and Goth, meaning that Thracians could be pre- or proto-Germanians,


    on the other hand Veneti that moved from minor asia went to Adriatic sea,
    Veneto means Blue in Byzantines Justinianus
    Veneti could be Wienn Vienna (2 nn is characteristic of Greek words and exist only in Wienn, so probably Wienn is named after people who knew or passed from Greece, or relative speaking) and as Taranis say Aestii could be Austr, Veneti are linked with Germanic,
    while as Dagne say could be Esthonian-baltic,

    hmmmm,

    probably the DYS of Thracians can help us, if they belong to Germanic or Baltoslavic Branch,

    until yesterday I knew that Thracians could be connected with Slavic speaking people, the case of connecting Thracians with Germans is new to me,

    As for Venneti adriatic coast and Venice is not that far from Wienn.

    the possibility that Thracians where a cut part of a bigger group of nations, (like today south slavic with rest slavic) is it open?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I think I did emphasize that in Slavic languages Boii = Boj = battle
    Vojnik/Bojovnik = soldier, warrior

    while I can imagine people having for own nation tribal names related to heroes, battle, warrior......I can not imagine people having a selfname cattle... that interpretation can only origin from neighbouring languages e.g. due to Boii beiing rich in cattle...... this is very strong indication that language of Celtic Boii might have been closer to early Slavic than to old Irish or Germanic...
    Umm, WHAT!? The Boii 'spoke a language closer to early Slavic than to Old Irish or Germanic'?!?

    Sorry, no offense, but that is linguistically complete NONSENSE. The Boii, without a doubt, spoke a Celtic language.

    For comparison:

    Old Irish:
    "Bo" - "Cow"
    "Bóaire" - "cow-noble", "stockmaster"

    Welsh:
    "Buwch" - "Cow"

    Breton:
    "Buoc'h" - "Cow"

    As you can see, the stem is attested in both Goidelic and Brythonic, and since Brythonic is closer with Gaulish than with Goidelic, it stands to reason that this word is Proto-Celtic as well.

    Also, it makes verymuch sense to have the term "cattle" in name. For one, cattle ownership was a symbol of status, and secondly, the bull was also a sacred animal to Gauls.

    Also there's these obviously Celtic town names in the area formerly inhabited by the Boii:
    - Boiodurum (Passau) - "Boii fort/gate"
    - Eburodunum (Brnno/Brünn) - "Yew fort"

    There's also the other Galatian tribes to be considered (principally the Volcae, who also moved into southern Gaul), as well as Galatian personal names. In my opinion, the Boii were, without a doubt, a Celtic-speaking people. The assertion that they were Slavic, and that Bohemia-Bavaria is actually the Slavic homeland, is totally insane.

    true...
    btw. according to Byzantine emperor Serbs came to Balkan from land they in their language call Boika that neighbours Frankia (clear reference to land of Boii = west Bohemia+ east Bavaria) where they have also originally dwellt...
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

    tribe known as Serdi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi



    this area is today Vojvodina
    which is a word whose origin is normally seen as teritorial unit related to military rank of Vojvoda (Voj/Boj + voditi = battle + lead)

    but it might be in fact coin word = Boii + large water = Boi/Voi +vodina...
    How about, just NO!?

    None of that holds up linguistically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Umm, WHAT!? The Boii 'spoke a language closer to early Slavic than to Old Irish or Germanic'?!?

    Sorry, no offense, but that is linguistically complete NONSENSE. The Boii, without a doubt, spoke a Celtic language.
    why not?
    do you have any written text of Boii?
    how do you know that Slavic languages are not just mix of languages spoken by Boii (perhaps I2a2 people) and the ones spoken by Sarmatians (probably R1a people)?

    For comparison:

    Old Irish:
    "Bo" - "Cow"
    "Bóaire" - "cow-noble", "stockmaster"

    Welsh:
    "Buwch" - "Cow"

    Breton:
    "Buoc'h" - "Cow"
    sure, for comparison do you know what word "germ" means?

    origin of tribal name Boii is disputed... what you explained here is one of the proposals...
    the other interpretation is "warrior" and is related to PIE *bhei(ə)-, *bhī-, "hit;"
    as I said in Slavic languages warrior is fitting interpratioon...

    no nation in world will call themselves cattle, tribal name is always of noble origin, being special in some noble way...it is often suggesting bravery, higher knowledge... so my guess is that originally it meant warrior, but that neighbouring people did come up with cattle due to something....


    As you can see, the stem is attested in both Goidelic and Brythonic, and since Brythonic is closer with Gaulish than with Goidelic, it stands to reason that this word is Proto-Celtic as well.

    Also, it makes verymuch sense to have the term "cattle" in name. For one, cattle ownership was a symbol of status, and secondly, the bull was also a sacred animal to Gauls.
    perhaps...
    Taurisci would be name of same origin...
    in fact, tribal name Taurisci I relate also to people from Taurus area in Asia minor where bull was also sacred animal... and I think name Thracians and Tyrsenians might be related tribal names....

    note here that Etruscans/Tyrsenians (or Taurus people from ) didnot call themselves Tyrsenians but that they have called themselves Rasena...

    note also that Rasena is same tribal name as Russians and same as alternative name of Serbs - Rascians... in my opinion, this is about R1a tribal name

    note that Thracians are known for cult of Sabazios (= Saba + Zeus) with hand gesture same as the one used by Serbs to express national identity...

    there are also Shardana/Serden/Sherden people whose mark was helmet with bull horns...Sherdana left place name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

    note that when I mentioon Etruscans and Thracians and Taurus and Sherdana I do not talk of recent history here, but about distant common roots of tribal names..... this may to some extent reflect in genetics more than in languages because linguistics of ethnic groups has much faster rate of change...

    I think that I2a2 originated in central Europe in Bohemia and have spread in many occasions along Danube to Black sea coasts, Caucasus and Asia minor and deep in Asia in different times under names such as Sherdana, Cimmerians/Syrians, Serians, Scordisci/Serdi ... the last wave would be Serbs... those waves may have spoken completely different languages as we today know how easy languages are changed... (compare spread of latin derived languages now and 2500 years ago when it was only spoken in small village called Rome)... related tribe are Veneti... same as in Hebrew world Paphlagonians were son of Ripath who was son of Gomer (Cappadocians)., Veneti were also I2a people...hence today I2a* we find only in areas of Celtic Veneti and Adriatic Veneti... in larger scope Gomer people were originally all haplogroup I people...hence tribal name Germans


    Also there's these obviously Celtic town names in the area formerly inhabited by the Boii:
    - Boiodurum (Passau) - "Boii fort/gate"
    - Eburodunum (Brnno/Brünn) - "Yew fort"
    what about Serviodurum exactly in area from which Serbs came to Balkan?
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serviodurum

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    why not?
    do you have any written text of Boii?
    how do you know that Slavic languages are not just mix of languages spoken by Boii (I2a2) and the ones spoken by Sarmatians (R1a)?
    Could you just please keep Y-Haplogroups out of this. You cannot randomly assign Haplogroups to certain tribes (or vice versa). On the flipside, you decide to ignore a lot of onomastic evidence I provided. Also, there actually are inscriptions, not from Bohemia, but from Vindelicia and the Norici - which identify them obviously as having a Celtic language.

    sure for comparison do you know what word "germ" means?

    origin of tribal name Boii is disputed... what you explained here is one of the proposals...
    the other interpretation is "warrior" and is related to PIE *bhei(ə)-, *bhī-, "hit;"
    as I said in Slavic languages warrior is fitting interpratioon...
    I think that my interpretation is the most plausible/parsimonious one given all the evidence. Yours is just too far out, especially given how the earliest unambigious mentioning of the Slavs occurs many centuries later during the migration period.

    no nation in world will call themselves cattle, tribal name is always of noble origin, being special in some noble way...it is often suggesting bravery, higher knowledge... so my guess is that originally it meant warrior, but that neighbouring people did come up with cattle due to something....
    Why not? Have you done any closer research into other Celtic tribal names= There is quite a few ones which have similarly offbeat connotations:

    "Aedui" - "Fiery Ones"
    "Arverni" - "(those who live) Upon/Near Alders"
    "Atrebates" - "Inhabitants"
    "Eburones" - "Yewy Ones"
    "Nemetes" - "Sacred Ones"
    "Senones" - "Elderly Ones"
    "Volcae" - "Falcons"

    perhaps...
    Taurisci would be name of same origin...
    Not quite. There's a distinction between "bull" and "cow".

    what about Serviodurum exactly in area from which Serbs came to Balkan?
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serviodurum
    Actually, it is verymuch reasonable to assume that "Servio-" is of Celtic etymology as well, in particular if "-durum" is itself already Celtic in etymology.

    - Old Irish "Serb" means "bitter". The cognate also exists in Welsh "Chwerw" (bitter"), which has been changed according to Brythonic sound laws (S became H/Ch in Common Brythonic). Since the word is, again, attested in both the Goidelic and Brythonic branch of Celtic, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that it also existed in Gaulish or the more eastern Celtic dialects related with Gaulish (the word can be reconstructed as either as "Servos" or "Serbos").

    - Old Irish "Dúr" means "hardy", "hard".

    Therefore, the etymology of "Serviodurum" as "Bitter fort" is verymuch plausible. Why should it be not Celtic if other nearby towns also had Celtic names (Abodiacum, Artobriga, Brigantium, Cambodunum, etc.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Could you just please keep Y-Haplogroups out of this. You cannot randomly assign Haplogroups to certain tribes (or vice versa).
    this is thread about haplogroups and not about linguistics...
    as I indicated in many occasions languages are useful only for analyzing very recent history as they are easily changed...again where are Celtic languages of central Europe today, where were latin languages 2500 years ago and where they are now....

    thing is that I2a2 has highest variance in Serbia and Bohemia... this indicates key settlements... that is why I propose Boii might have been I2a2 people...

    Sarmatians were Iranian tribe, perhaps Avestan relaed...high R1a is very likely...acompanied with multuitude of other haplogroups in lesser extent...
    they are also in Greek legends offshot of Scythians who from what we know were dominantly R1a people...


    On the flipside, you decide to ignore a lot of onomastic evidence I provided. Also, there actually are inscriptions, not from Bohemia, but from Vindelicia and the Norici - which identify them obviously as having a Celtic language.
    I suggest you to study languages of latin America from that period and now...
    languages change and are thus not reliable indicator about distant origin of ethinic groups...


    I think that my interpretation is the most plausible/parsimonious one given all the evidence. Yours is just too far out, especially given how the earliest unambigious mentioning of the Slavs occurs many centuries later during the migration period.
    their earliest mentions put them among Veneti race...and claim them to origin from state of Zeruiani that was so big that all Slavs origin from it... there is also claim that Noricans are of same race..

    this all fits perfectly in my theory about Serians and Veneti... and with I2a2 + R12a mix of current Slavic people....
    you base all your thinking on languages, but that is completely unreliable...

    "Aedui" - "Fiery Ones"
    "Arverni" - "(those who live) Upon/Near Alders"
    "Atrebates" - "Inhabitants"
    "Eburones" - "Yewy Ones"
    "Nemetes" - "Sacred Ones"
    "Senones" - "Elderly Ones"
    "Volcae" - "Falcons"
    actually, Nemetes is perhaps same tribal name as Nemci - which is official name used by Slavic people for Germans

    Old Irish "Serb" means "bitter". The cognate also exists in Welsh "Chwerw" (bitter"), which has been changed according to Brythonic sound laws (S became H/Ch in Common Brythonic). Since the word is, again, attested in both the Goidelic and Brythonic branch of Celtic, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that it also existed in Gaulish or the more eastern Celtic dialects related with Gaulish (the word can be reconstructed as either as "Servos" or "Serbos").
    have you ever considered an idea that same tribal name words can have different meaning in different languages not by chance but by neighbouring people creating a word that sounds as tribal name and assigning it a meaning that seems to them as most characteristic for the group carrying the tribal name?

    e.g. Taurus people might have meant something completely different than bull in original language...but those people had bull as sacred animal, so neighbouring Greeks started calling bulls with name of Taurus people....

    similarly Slavs use word "bik" for bull...and this may be due to (perhaps it was not a myth) helmets with bull horns carried by Vikings?

    word germ may have come into existance because Germanic people looked filthy to some people... perhaps proto-Serbs looked bitter and sardonic/sarcastic to some people... what is in one culture seen as negative in other can be positive...

    Cultural perspectives on sarcasm vary widely with more than a few cultures and linguistic groups finding it offensive to varying degrees. Thomas Carlyle despised it: "Sarcasm I now see to be, in general, the language of the devil; for which reason I have long since as good as renounced it".[14] Fyodor Dostoyevsky, on the other hand, recognized in it a cry of pain: Sarcasm, he said, was "usually the last refuge of modest and chaste-souled people when the privacy of their soul is coarsely and intrusively invaded."[15]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

    while Boii tribal name may originate in them calling themselves warriors, the word can have got meaning cattle due to their neighbours identifying Boii with being owners of big herds of cattle....

    words Boj/bojovnik/vojnik/vojvoda - all related to battle and warriors in Slavic languages might have origin from absorbing some Celtic Boii people... but it may as well be that Slavic language and language of Boii are more related than it is conventionally thought to be the case...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    this is thread about haplogroups and not about linguistics...
    as I indicated in many occasions languages are useful only for analyzing very recent history as they are easily changed...again where are Celtic languages of central Europe today, where were latin languages 2500 years ago and where they are now....

    thing is that I2a2 has highest variance in Serbia and Bohemia... this indicates key settlements... that is why I propose Boii might have been I2a2 people...

    Sarmatians were Iranian tribe, perhaps Avestan relaed...high R1a is very likely...acompanied with multuitude of other haplogroups in lesser extent...
    they are also in Greek legends offshot of Scythians who from what we know were dominantly R1a people...
    Sorry, this was verymuch about linguistics and not about genetics: you argued that the Boii were a Slavic people, and I have presented you plenty of evidence that that statement is, simply put, impossible.

    I suggest you to study languages of latin America from that period and now...
    languages change and are thus not reliable indicator about distant origin of ethinic groups...
    Sorry, what are you trying to say there?

    their earliest mentions put them among Veneti race...and claim them to origin from state of Zeruiani that was so big that all Slavs origin from it...
    this fits perfectly in my theory about Serians and Veneti... and with I2a2 + R12a mix of current Slavic people....
    Which "earliest mentioning" puts the Boii amongst the Veneti? The earliest mentioning (the Celtic invasion of Greece, as far as I know - though the invasion in Italy was probably even earlier) would put them amongst the Galatians.

    Also, you already randomly lump the Adriatic (V)eneti and the Baltic Venedi together as the same group. It's pretty insolent and unfounded to ad-hoc, in addition, to declare the Boii to be part of the same group, and declare that they spoke a Slavic language?! That's... just... GAH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Umm, WHAT!? The Boii 'spoke a language closer to early Slavic than to Old Irish or Germanic'?!?

    Sorry, no offense, but that is linguistically complete NONSENSE. The Boii, without a doubt, spoke a Celtic language.

    For comparison:

    Old Irish:
    "Bo" - "Cow"
    "Bóaire" - "cow-noble", "stockmaster"

    Welsh:
    "Buwch" - "Cow"

    Breton:
    "Buoc'h" - "Cow"

    As you can see, the stem is attested in both Goidelic and Brythonic, and since Brythonic is closer with Gaulish than with Goidelic, it stands to reason that this word is Proto-Celtic as well.

    Also, it makes verymuch sense to have the term "cattle" in name. For one, cattle ownership was a symbol of status, and secondly, the bull was also a sacred animal to Gauls.

    just for the record,

    I don't know if Boii where German-Speaking or Slavic Speaking,

    But

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar


    boyάr sounds like Bόaire (exept tone mark)

    the possibility that Boiare left west, but the title remained,
    or cames from root of valor-vallois etc Noble man

    or means the same to both,

    the cattle master is an officer of war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, this was verymuch about linguistics and not about genetics: you argued that the Boii were a Slavic people, and I have presented you plenty of evidence that that statement is, simply put, impossible.
    you are so black and white... and trying to project classifications of today on past, and even on distant past...

    I argued that Boii were part of Slavic ethnogenesis...
    and that hat participation may have left imprint in languages...e.g. that slavic words for war, battle, soldiers are related to Boii tribal name...


    Sorry, what are you trying to say there?
    that origin of people may or may not be reflected in language spoken... history teaches us that languages change more easily than one would expect... latin America is an example that clearly shows how drastic the change of language can be....


    Which "earliest mentioning" puts the Boii amongst the Veneti? The earliest mentioning (the Celtic invasion of Greece, as far as I know - though the invasion in Italy was probably even earlier) would put them amongst the Galatians.
    not Boii... I was talking about the early Slavs... as a reply on your claim of earliest mention of Slavs...don't play the game of taking sentences out of context...

    Also, you already randomly lump the Adriatic (V)eneti and the Baltic Venedi together as the same group. It's pretty insolent and unfounded to ad-hoc, in addition, to declare the Boii to be part of the same group, and declare that they spoke a Slavic language?! That's... just... GAH!
    it is the same tribal name and very likely there is partially common genetic origin....
    you systematically fail to understand timeline of genetics....
    3000-5000 years before present a tribe can split in 2-3 parts heading in different directions.... 2000 years ago subtribes may still carry same tribal name, but can speak unrelated languages....
    if that is the case one should be able to see traces of common origin in genetics...
    unfortunatelly we cannot identify any ethnic group of today directly with Adriatic Veneti, Celtic Veneti or Vistula Veneti...but we can look in spread of haplogroups...
    for me good indication of Veneti being I2a people is that I2a* we find only in small confined areas that match locations of Adriatic Veneti and Celtic Veneti....look for I2a*-P37 Alpine and I2a*-P37 France in these map
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

    now how likely is that unless I2a* was carried by original Veneti tribe...

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    "you base all your thinking on languages, but that is completely unreliable..."
    Sorry, you just delivered yourself ad-absurdum there. You take two or more similar-sounding words and ad-hoc proclaim them to one and the same, and derive from that that ethnic group X and Y must be the same, and that they must have spoken the same language, and must have shared the same Y-Haplogroup. That is, with all due respect, what *I* would call not only completely unreliable, but completely unscientific and without making a stand to closer scrutiny.

    In contrast, I'm not only thinking about languages, I'm also considering the time frame, and I'm considering the way languages change across timeframe - and that sometimes cognates with words can look very different if you take into account how certain sound laws change them. Lastly, I'm making use of Occam's razor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, you just delivered yourself ad-absurdum there. You take two or more similar-sounding words and ad-hoc proclaim them to one and the same, and derive from that that ethnic group X and Y must be the same, and that they must have spoken the same language, and must have shared the same Y-Haplogroup. That is, with all due respect, what *I* would call not only completely unreliable, but completely unscientific and without making a stand to closer scrutiny.
    nope... tribal name is not just a word... it is an identity!!!
    much more than language is...

    you can move to other country and your son may speak different native language than you did, but his last name will be same as yours and of your father and grandfather... in few generations language will say nothing of ancestors, but last name and genetics will...

    In contrast, I'm not only thinking about languages, I'm also considering the time frame, and I'm considering the way languages change across timeframe - and that sometimes cognates with words can look very different if you take into account how certain sound laws change them. Lastly, I'm making use of Occam's razor.
    your Occam's razor suggest that all latin Americans origin from a person born in a village called Rome 2500 years ago...but their genetics speaks many quite different stories... perhaps what you think is Occam's razor is in fact a misconception, illusion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    nope... tribal name is not just a word... it is an identity!!!
    much more than language is...



    your Occam's razor suggest that all latin Americans origin from a person born in a village called Rome 2500 years ago...but their genetics speaks many quite different stories... perhaps what you think is Occam's razor is in fact a misconception, illusion...
    *sigh*

    I'm not arguing with you anymore on this. Say hello to my ignore list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    *sigh*

    I'm not arguing with you anymore on this. Say hello to my ignore list.
    well you were so far ignoring all my arguments...
    so I see no essential difference in that respect...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    well you were so far ignoring all my arguments...
    so I see no essential difference in that respect...
    That is not the truth. I did not ignore any of your arguments, I debunked them, and you in turn just decided to ignore that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    That is not the truth. I did not ignore any of your arguments, I debunked them, and you in turn just decided to ignore that.
    nope, you did not debunk any of them....
    you are using set of very poor linguistic arguments as evidence of what is possible and what is not possible ethnic origin...
    more one goes in past more ridiculous are those arguments...

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    Has there been a comparison of a large Pomak y-dna study to y-dna discovered from Thracian tombs? Pomaks are condsidered by some to have have been in the Balkans prior to the many Slavic and other tribes who settled there after 6 century AD.

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