An Approach to ancient Thracian DNA

Sorry. No. What speaks severely against this is that the Slavic language family is closer related with the Baltic languages than with Thracian. Plus, although scarcely attested, the Balts are attested by the sources in Antiquity. Specifically, a West Baltic tribe (that is, akin to the Old Prussians), the Galindians, are mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD. In other words, the Baltic-Slavic split was complete by then, and without doubt, the Baltoslavic-Thracian split was even earlier.

So, do you agree with A. Paabo theory/papers ( january 2011) that the finnic language ( not uralic-finnic ) infested the black sea area around 2000BC ,. He goes on to bascially say , this finnic language was used as a trading language ( lingua franca) and eventually was the language of the venetic.
This finnic was used also by by aesti in the baltic sea and the cimbri in jutland.
Also confirmed by another - Felice Vinci in his book The baltic origins of homers epic tales. More of a migratory/trading book than a "homeric" book

In regards to the old prussians, did'nt they use Suebi language
 
well i will stay in how yes no post about capnobatai 3 66

smoke walkers, or carbon walkers or pyrobatai


Greece



Bulgaria,

who knows where else existed,

why St Constandine and Helen?
may be not to be punished from Christians?

why they sacrifice a bull that day? tavros
 
So, do you agree with A. Paabo theory/papers ( january 2011) that the finnic language ( not uralic-finnic ) infested the black sea area around 2000BC ,. He goes on to bascially say , this finnic language was used as a trading language ( lingua franca) and eventually was the language of the venetic.

It's the first time I hear this, and frankly, none of this makes any sense. What do you mean by "Finnic" if not "Uralic-Finnic"? :weird:

We do not know what languages the Baltic "Venedi" spoke, but there is this: consider that "Venedi" was, with high probability, a Germanic exonym for the peoples living towards their east, and that the Venedi didn't constitute a coherent ethnolinguistic group (though it stands to reason that they were - with high likelihood - Baltic- and Slavic-speaking peoples). Indeed, much later, during early medieval ages, the term "Wends" is collectively used for a variety of West Slavic peoples who refer to themselves by completely different names. For a comparison, take a look at the Germanic word "Walha-" (foreigner), which can be today found in place names like "Wales", "Wallonia" and "Wallachia". Does it mean that because they have the similar name the Welsh, Walloons and Wallachians must speak the same language?

This finnic was used also by by aesti in the baltic sea and the cimbri in jutland.

The Cimbri, in my opinion, spoke the Pre-Germanic Language outlined here in this thread.

Also confirmed by another - Felice Vinci in his book The baltic origins of homers epic tales. More of a migratory/trading book than a "homeric" book

Why should they be Baltic? It seems kind of unlikely. Apart from amber trade, the ancient Greeks had no contact to the Baltic region. It seems very sensationalistic and implausible to suggest the Homeric tales originated in the Baltic.

In regards to the old prussians, did'nt they use Suebi language

No.

What, in your opinion, was this "Suebi language"? The Suebi were a bewildering group of Germanic peoples in Antiquity, living along the Elbe river, who spoke Germanic. Parts of them moved into Galicia during the migrations period, while others became part of the Alemanni and moved to southern Germany - the name "Swabia" ("Schwaben" in German) is derived from them.

In contrast, the Old Prussians are well-known to have spoken a Baltic language. During the medieval ages (specifically, the Northern Crusades), the Prussians were conquered by the Teutonic Order. In the subsequent centuries, the Prussians were gradually Germanized - though, the Old Prussian language itself lingered to the 17th or 18th century. The East Prussian dialect of German (which in itself is now virtually extinct) also inherited a fair number of vocabulary from Old Prussian.
 
Great explanation Taranis. Information about Baltic Veneti makes perfect sense.
 
I
For a comparison, take a look at the Germanic word "Walha-" (foreigner), which can be today found in place names like "Wales", "Wallonia" and "Wallachia". Does it mean that because they have the similar name the Welsh, Walloons and Wallachians must speak the same language?
actually, they did speak same language...
word is related to areas and people where populations spoke reminders of latin based languages ... in some cases latin language was lost but name stayed (e.g. in Wales which used to be stronghold of Roman empire with many settlements of latin speakers)...

equivalent in Slavic languages is "Vlah"..
word is used in medieval Russian primary chronicle to denote invaders that in fact were latin speakers who were spreading borders of Roman empire... there are "Vlah" villages throughout Balkan - in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, Albania... there were some in Croatia till 18th century... big chunk of what is now Romania used to carry name Wallachia


as for languages of Suebi, Cimbri, Veneti... those are all more or less likely assumptions...

Suebi are very likely to have spoken some variant of Germanic language, as 'Schwaben'' represent clear continuity of tribal name and this tribal name is often used for all Germanic people.... (e.g. in Slavic lands Germans = Schwaben which tells us that key Germanic people that Slavs knew the best were Suebi...this speaks about possible locations of proto-Slavs that coincide more or less with known Vistula and Baltic Veneti locations)

though I am confused with the North sea being called Germanic sea and in same time the Baltic sea being called Suebic sea .. actually this was in times when Veneti/Venedi are mentioned on Baltic... if Germani = Schwaben = Suebi why one sea being Germanic and other one just next to it being Suebic?

what if Suebi were I1 people and original Germani were more R1b people or mix of R1b and I? afterall it is suggested in historical sources that word German came to existence in order to identify original Celts... though I keep thinking that it has something to do with province of Kerman/Germania in Persia that had meaning battle/bravery and haplogroup I because mention of Gomer people matches island of I2a in Cappadocia Asia minor and those people were later called white Syrians......

Gomer ancestors of Germanic people gave in Asia minor Cimmerians (proposed ancestors of Cimbri) and interestingly that area is I2a island now...tribal name of Cimmerians is related to word gimmri = hero

in my opinon Gomer = Cimmerians = Serians = Zeruiani whose land according to manuscript of Bavarian geographer was so big that all Slavs origin from them..
note that tribal name Serians may be related to iranian ser/sar = head, zerre/zærdæ = heart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages
also 'suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm


another confusing point is that Srbi (Serbs) who are people with tribal name related to Suebi did according to official history come to Balkan from area they called Boika (land of Boii) that neighbours Frankia and that can only be identified as east Bavaria/west Bohemia area (Bavaria = land of Boii, Bohemia = land of Boii)...and we can even see local hotspot of I2a2 there and Serb related place names...according to same historic source this is where they originally dwellt...
interrestingly tribal name Boii in Slavic languages = battle...
if Ser = head, would not Ser Boii be key Boii people... something like there are Scythians and Royal Scythians?


I think similarity of tribal names Srbi (Serbs) and Suebi comes from original tribal name of haplogroup I.... also names of Sardinia and Swedes comes from the same origin....

regarding the languages spoken by Veneti and Cimbri, we do not know much about language of Veneti, and if there is some real historic reference regarding language of Cimbri I would like to hear more about it......

to further confuse you, from what I see we cannot even be sure that Germanic people were not originally speaking Slavic-alike languages but than have mixed with Celtic and other people and adopted big chunks of their vocabulary...we also cannot be sure that Slavic people were not originally speaking Germanic-alike languages but were influenced heavily by the similar IE language of iranian Sarmatians (btw. could Sarmatians be Sar+Madai meaning key tribe of iranian Madai) ...
 
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actually, they did speak same language...
word is related to populations that were reminders of latin based languages ... in some cases latin language was lost but name stayed (e.g. in Wales which used to be stronghold of Roman empire with many settlements of latin speakers)...

equivalent in Slavic languages is "Vlah"..
word is used in medieval Russian primary chronicle to denote latin speaking people of Roman empire... there are "Vlah" villages throughout Balkan - in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, Albania... there were some in Croatia till 18th century... big chunk of what is now Romania used to carry name Wallachia

Yes, you are right about that, but I was refering to these modern place for the sake of an argument.

as for languages of Suebi, Cimbri, Veneti... those are all more or less likely assumptions...
Suebi are very likely to have spoken some variant of Germanic language, as 'Schwaben'' represent clear continuity of tribal name, but we do not know much about language of Veneti, and if there is some real historic reference regarding language of Cimbri I would like to hear more about it......

With regard for the Veneti, if you read Ptolemy it's clear that they were not a homogenous group - he speaks of "greater" and "lesser" Venedic races. I think it's reasonably plausible to assume that they spoke Baltic and Slavic languages - it's clear that they were neither Germanic nor Iranic, for instance. And we know that the term "Wends" is used later on for Slavic peoples. It would make verymuch sense if this is a Germanic exonym.

As for Cimbri, check out the thread I made about the relationship of Celtic and Pre-Germanic, it makes a strong case for the Cimbri being speakers of Pre-Germanic.
 
It's the first time I hear this, and frankly, none of this makes any sense. What do you mean by "Finnic" if not "Uralic-Finnic"? :weird:

We do not know what languages the Baltic "Venedi" spoke, but there is this: consider that "Venedi" was, with high probability, a Germanic exonym for the peoples living towards their east, and that the Venedi didn't constitute a coherent ethnolinguistic group (though it stands to reason that they were - with high likelihood - Baltic- and Slavic-speaking peoples). Indeed, much later, during early medieval ages, the term "Wends" is collectively used for a variety of West Slavic peoples who refer to themselves by completely different names. For a comparison, take a look at the Germanic word "Walha-" (foreigner), which can be today found in place names like "Wales", "Wallonia" and "Wallachia". Does it mean that because they have the similar name the Welsh, Walloons and Wallachians must speak the same language?



The Cimbri, in my opinion, spoke the Pre-Germanic Language outlined here in this thread.



Why should they be Baltic? It seems kind of unlikely. Apart from amber trade, the ancient Greeks had no contact to the Baltic region. It seems very sensationalistic and implausible to suggest the Homeric tales originated in the Baltic.



No.

What, in your opinion, was this "Suebi language"? The Suebi were a bewildering group of Germanic peoples in Antiquity, living along the Elbe river, who spoke Germanic. Parts of them moved into Galicia during the migrations period, while others became part of the Alemanni and moved to southern Germany - the name "Swabia" ("Schwaben" in German) is derived from them.

In contrast, the Old Prussians are well-known to have spoken a Baltic language. During the medieval ages (specifically, the Northern Crusades), the Prussians were conquered by the Teutonic Order. In the subsequent centuries, the Prussians were gradually Germanized - though, the Old Prussian language itself lingered to the 17th or 18th century. The East Prussian dialect of German (which in itself is now virtually extinct) also inherited a fair number of vocabulary from Old Prussian.

Link below is long but interesting
http://www.paabo.ca/veneti/

It was written in 2006 and updated in January 2011. Also confirmed by the others I mentioned.

Its basically says that the finnic speakers pre union with uralic speakers, where traders in the baltic sea, they over time, had outposts in the black sea, these outposts where the eneti of the town enete ( modern Samsun) , these eneti , fled the kaska invasions from the crimien area, and joined with another trading power, the trojans. After the trojan wars, the eneti migrated through thrace, into illyrian lands and eventulally the adriatic area of veneto. they then established 2 routes for an amber and fur trade. ( see link for maps). the trade to Jutland led to the migration of these veneti to brittany.

Tacitus, described this language as a britanic ( pre anglo-saxon) language.

There are also, sites which have a finnic-basque link as well as a Finnic -Galician link. be it linguistic but also gene link.

Of course, I am skeptical in that I need some questions answered, like, why are all the venetic inscriptions only in the veneto and not in denmark and baltic areas, and others
 
another link, these are pre slavic times

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name_files/Map-3000BC.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name.html&h=396&w=605&sz=41&tbnid=Ly6NB17uMczMCM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=135&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfinnic%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=finnic&hl=en&usg=__G4u2lekwJfN_KxDy8Ra91j8CXIs=&sa=X&ei=fyO7Te2ELIeiuQOD7vC1BQ&ved=0CCwQ9QEwBDge

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name.html


as for the suebi tacitus says
For Tacitus, the Suebi comprise the Semnones, who are "the oldest and noblest of the Suebi";[7] the Langobardi;[8] the seven tribes of Jutland and Holstein: Reudigni, Aviones, Anglii, Varini, Eudoses, Suarini, Nuitones;[8] the Hermunduri on the Elbe;[9] three tribes along the Danube: Naristi, Marcomanni, Quadi;[10] the Marsigni and Buri.[11] Then there is a mountain range, and beyond that, in the drainage system of the Vistula, Tacitus places five tribes of the Lugii including the Harii, Helveconae, Manimi, Helisii and Naharvali;[11] the Gothones, Rugii, Lemovii along the Baltic Sea;[11] all the states of the Suiones, located in peninsular Scandinavia;[12] and finally the non-Germanic Aestii,[13] and the Sitones, beyond the Aestii along the Baltic yet "continuous with the Suiones".[13] Says Tacitus then: "Here Suebia ends."[14]
But few clues to the identity of the Suebi are given by Tacitus. They can be identified by their fashion of the hair style called the "Suebian knot", which "distinguishes the freeman from the slave";[15] in other words, was intended as a badge of social rank. The same passage points out that chiefs "use an even more elaborate style."


I assume, that subi refers to tribes that had access to the baltic sea.
 
But few clues to the identity of the Suebi are given by Tacitus. They can be identified by their fashion of the hair style called the "Suebian knot", which "distinguishes the freeman from the slave";[15] in other words, was intended as a badge of social rank. The same passage points out that chiefs "use an even more elaborate style."

I assume, that subi refers to tribes that had access to the baltic sea.

yes, that can be explanation - Suebi = free as opposed to the ones who willingly subjugate to other peoples... slave is not opposite of freeman, as slaves are obtained in wars and thus not from the tribes who willingly subjugate but from the ones who decide to try to stay free...

note the cult of thracian horseman or Sabazios (= Saba + Zeus)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

and thracian word sabazias = ‘free'
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

again, accidentally or not, hand gesture typical for cult of Sabazios is identical to the one used by Serbs to express their identity...


so, we have tribal names:

Boii = battle

German = battle, hero, seed / genuine (original Celts)

German = Gomer = Cimmerians (= Cimbri ?) = Cappadocians = white Syrians (? = Seneca's Serians = ? Zeruiani whose lands are so big that all Slavs come from them) = hero

Suebi = free

we have king of Cimbri having name (or title?) Boiorix (= king of Boii)


I think this is about haplogroup I people...
 
Link below is long but interesting
http://www.paabo.ca/veneti/

It was written in 2006 and updated in January 2011. Also confirmed by the others I mentioned.

Its basically says that the finnic speakers pre union with uralic speakers, where traders in the baltic sea, they over time, had outposts in the black sea, these outposts where the eneti of the town enete ( modern Samsun) , these eneti , fled the kaska invasions from the crimien area, and joined with another trading power, the trojans. After the trojan wars, the eneti migrated through thrace, into illyrian lands and eventulally the adriatic area of veneto. they then established 2 routes for an amber and fur trade. ( see link for maps). the trade to Jutland led to the migration of these veneti to brittany.

None of this makes sense, to be honest.

Tacitus, described this language as a britanic ( pre anglo-saxon) language.

No, Tacitus talks about the Aestii.

There are also, sites which have a finnic-basque link as well as a Finnic -Galician link. be it linguistic but also gene link.

It makes no sense, though.

Of course, I am skeptical in that I need some questions answered, like, why are all the venetic inscriptions only in the veneto and not in denmark and baltic areas, and others

Simple: the Adriatic (V)eneti (note that the spelling variant "Enetoi" also exists) and the Baltic Venedi were completely unrelated. The Adriatic Veneti spoke a language similar to the Italic languageas, whereas the Baltic Venedi probably spoke early Baltic/Slavic.

Also, the "Veneti" of Gaul were also completely unrelated, since they were a Celtic people.
 
No, Tacitus talks about the Aestii.

Tacitus says the britonic is similar to the finnic and the finnic was the language of the aesti
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=tacitus on finnic&f=false




Simple: the Adriatic (V)eneti (note that the spelling variant "Enetoi" also exists) and the Baltic Venedi were completely unrelated. The Adriatic Veneti spoke a language similar to the Italic languageas, whereas the Baltic Venedi probably spoke early Baltic/Slavic.

Also, the "Veneti" of Gaul were also completely unrelated, since they were a Celtic people.

I think they could have been related prior to the VeneDI becoming slavitized. When did the slavs migrate there?
I also agree that the venedi of the baltic area which ended up being slavitized where no longer related to the adriatic veneto, but, I was wanting to know how they got there, because the original people of the veneto where the euganei and east of them where the carni. Homer traces them to the black sea area, a city called enete ( later called amisus and now Samsun).

The original venedi of the baltics where initially not slavic as you would know.

I am guessing then that you believe that the Eneti originated from the black sea. My issue is that I cannot find hittite script on them, yet find script on the trojans.
 
that is just 2 thoughts,

1) Veneto in Byzantines was Blue team at Justinianus time,
could Veneti be Blue eyes people?

2) if I don't connect Veneto with Venice but with another state and city,
Wienn Vienna Βιεννη, could Veneti be the first Wienn people?

just wondering
 
There was a big settlement of Celts/prot-celts/or Italic in Bohemia in first millennium BC. We know there was a celtic influence in culture and pottery where poland is now in same time. I suspect there could have been farthest reaching east celtic tribe, possibly called Veneti, that ruled for some time there over local (whatever they were). With time they must have gotten slavonized, with ever stronger slavic influence. It's possible that remnants of Veneti tribe survived till 1 000 AD as Vieleti that settled in Polabia, north of Berlin, eventually getting Germanized.
 
so you all rule out the link provided in post #68 ..link #2

a link which shows old tribeable area at the time prior to slavic encrounchment into europe.

On the thracian DNA trail, does it not show that they where related to the trojans and had a luwian common language

http://www.palaeolexicon.com/default.aspx?static=14&Language_ID=16
 
"Tacitus says the britonic is similar to the finnic and the finnic was the language of the aesti
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...finnic&f=false"


One likely interepretation is that Aestii was the name used by Tacitus to refer to all tribes who lived East(Aesti)ward of the Suiones (Scandinavians). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti)

According to this interpretation the Latin word Aestii is similar to an Old German word (sorry I don't know it) meaning East, which was used by Germanic tribes to refer 'Eastward' tribes. It should be remembered that Tacitus himself only recorded information he had obtained from others and it is quite likely that Aestii is a descriptive name rather than original name of the tribe as they had been referring to themselves in their own language.

These generic Aestii were composed of pre Baltic (later Lithuanian, Latvian, Prussian and other) and also Finnic (later Estonian, Finnish, Sami) tribes. Their languages were very different as they are now, Finnic not belonging to IE language group, but genetically the peoples are very similar.

Regarding similarity of Britonic to Aestii this is a bit puzzling. It might be that the languages were similar in their rhythm, or in some similar words and grammar retained from PIE... For instant Taranis compared the word Tauta (peoples) in Gothic, Pre Germanic, Gaulish which was very similar to Baltic, too. So at that time were could have been many similarities between many IE languages.

Again, Tacitus wasn’t there to judge and the only Aestii word he gives is for amber “an apparently Latinised form, glesum (cf. Latvian glīsas). This is the only word of their language recorded from antiquity, but seems to be Germanic in origin (from Gothic glas).[3]

If we agree to this interpretation of Tacitus, then Aestii included both Finnic who spoke finnic languages and also Baltic people, who spoke pre-baltic languages.
 
so you all rule out the link provided in post #68 ..link #2

a link which shows old tribeable area at the time prior to slavic encrounchment into europe.

QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure slavic tribes were always in europe.
 
so you all rule out the link provided in post #68 ..link #2

a link which shows old tribeable area at the time prior to slavic encrounchment into europe.

QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure slavic tribes were always in europe.


I dount very much that the slavs where in europe prior to 1000BC because as all linguistic and historical scholars have noted, they do not even know/knew a word for amber which was the major trading item, a item which was even traded to ramses of egypt, as per this quote

Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology whatsoever, be it in the domain of seafaring, sea fishing, boat building, or sea trade. Especially striking is the absence of a Proto-Slavic word for amber, the most important item of export from the shores of the Baltic to the Mediterranean. In view of this, the very fact that Ptolemy refers to the Baltic as the Venedic Bay appears to rule out a possible identification of the Veneti of his times with the Slavs.

I would like to find out when the slavs did arrive
 




According to this interpretation the Latin word Aestii is similar to an Old German word (sorry I don't know it) meaning East, which was used by Germanic tribes to refer 'Eastward' tribes. It should be remembered that Tacitus himself only recorded information he had obtained from others and it is quite likely that Aestii is a descriptive name rather than original name of the tribe as they had been referring to themselves in their own language.


I initially thought the same thing, but I now have doubts.

We do agree though that baltic tribes, had either a baltic, norse(scandinavian), finnic or germanic language
 
I initially thought the same thing, but I now have doubts.

We do agree though that baltic tribes, had either a baltic, norse(scandinavian), finnic or germanic language


If we use the term Baltic in a geographic sense it may mean tribes living around the Baltic sea=Baltic, Norse(Germanic), Finnic.

But the common understanding of Baltic people include only those tribes that speak Baltic languages - Lithuanian, Latvian, Prussian, etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts):



The wiki on the Baltic tribes tells that their historic homeland were much larger that it is now or was in the c.1200 C.E

"Some of the major authorities on Balts, such as Būga, Vasmer, Toporov and Trubachov, in conducting etymological studies of eastern European river names, were able to identify in certain regions names of specifically Baltic provenance, which most likely indicate where the Balts lived in prehistoric times. This information is summarized and synthesized by Marija Gimbutas in The Balts (1963) to obtain a likely proto-Baltic homeland. Its borders are approximately: from a line on the Pomeranian coast eastward to include or nearly include the present-day sites of Warsaw, Kiev, and Kursk, northward through Moscow to the River Berzha, westward in an irregular line to the coast of the Gulf of Riga, north of Riga."
 

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