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Thread: An Approach to ancient Thracian DNA

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrace View Post
    Has there been a comparison of a large Pomak y-dna study to y-dna discovered from Thracian tombs? Pomaks are condsidered by some to have have been in the Balkans prior to the many Slavic and other tribes who settled there after 6 century AD.

    yes there has been, in Bulgarian tombs, Thracian that were buried there were R1a i heard,

    about Pomaks Gorani Torbesi read my post #8 in same thread.

    simply we know that these people sre isolated communities, they could be thracians,

    but the biggest R1a in south east and central Balkans is in Greek Makedonia,

    so the exact Pomak = Thracian is still under Discuss,
    that was the starting point of Georgyev works, to connect Pomaks with Thracians,

    and only in case of Echinos (Greece) pomak DNA is isolated for about estimation 2000 years max, although could be 1500 and pomaks be pure slavic or Balkars, or pomaks torbesi Gorani are Kumans, or Bardarians, the connection of Pomaks with ancient Thracian although is the most possible, it maybe is mistaken,
    that is promoted by Turkish goverment propaganda, since most pomaks are muslim,
    but officially that language is Slavic, not Turkish,
    the most pure Pomaks isolated for more than 1000 years are in south Rodope, in Greek thrace,
    they speak a Bulgarian Dialect of Slavic,
    the possibilty that they are Thracians is same with possibility of being Slavic,

    the case of Pomaks, especially the ones in south Rodope should have better search.
    Last edited by iapetoc; 30-04-11 at 23:22.

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    being confused on this boii issue, i found this

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...0italy&f=false

    The town of Lodi sits between Milan and Verona in Italy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii

    I do see nothing about slavs in reference to the boii.

    The slavs have a tendency to absorb another peoples/tribal history and make it there own, like the illyrians, thracian, baltic and many other areas

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    interesting how the basques also have something with thracian dna

    http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2009-08-29.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    being confused on this boii issue, i found this

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...0italy&f=false

    The town of Lodi sits between Milan and Verona in Italy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii

    I do see nothing about slavs in reference to the boii.

    The slavs have a tendency to absorb another peoples/tribal history and make it there own, like the illyrians, thracian, baltic and many other areas

    ethnic and language groups of Europe have very mixed history and many influences...
    thus, going back from any ethnic or linguistic group of today leads to many different tribes of past....


    there are few facts regarding Slavs to consider
    1) their genetics is clearly European which indicates living in Europe for many thousand years - e.g. look at autosomal testing results
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04...eurasians.html

    2) their first appearances in history describe them as populous race living in large areas....

    thus, if they were not known as Slavs they were known under other tribal names...
    but what tribal names?

    historic sources suggest origin from race of Veneti...in my opinion Boii were part of this race... but I have no data to support such a claim....

    worth nothing is that in historic times there are several seemingly unrelated tribes throughout Europe with same tribal name Veneti....

    I argue that tribal names cannot be the same by accident ... I claim that in more distant past there was single tribe and that original tribe was split through perhaps 1000 or few thousand years process into several tribes with same tribal name...throughout the time through interaction with people among whom they lived those tribes developed different languages...

    what I claim is that original genetic basis of this Veneti race was I2a haplogroup (with passage of time through process of mixing with other people this genetic base might lost some of its frequency)....reason I claim this is that so far we find I2a* only on 2 places in Europe and those places match exactly the locations of seemingly unrelated ancient Veneti tribes in Britanny and in north Italy....thus, relation is there... and if early Slavs are of Veneti race, I2a2 that matches fairly well spread of early Slavs is indeed logical continuation of I2a* Veneti race....

    another Veneti tribe were Paphlagonia Eneti...they disappeared from Paphlagonia but we know they were related to Cimmerians (waging wars together, and Paphlagonians originating in Hebrew world from Riphat who is son of Gomer from whom Cimmerians origin...both Gomer and Ripath are also located north of Black sea where we find both I2a2 and archeological findings of Cimmerians)...thing that Cimmerians are thought to have settled Cappadocia is reflected in island of I2a among Kurds in Cappadocia... this further confirms assumption that race of Veneti is originally about I2a people.... we also know that Cimmerians are related to archeological remains throughout Europe


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

    we can see that those archeological finding match very well spread of I2a

    another thing is they match well supposed spread of early Slavs....
    Cappodocians who origin from Cimmerians are in time of Strabo called white Syrians...
    Serbs of Balkan origin from white Serbs who came from land of Boiki that only matches Bohemia...
    according to manuscript of Bavarian geographer state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it...
    Seneca speaks of Serians who live in Europe around Danube, in Caspian higlands among Sarmatians, in Serica (south Siberia/north west China) and on Red sea (?)
    Ptolemy maps Serboi tribe in Caspian highlands in Asian Sarmatia

    in my opinion Serians = (white) Syrians = Zeruiani = Cimmerians and were dominantly I2a people same as related Veneti originally were I2a people....


    anyway, while historic Veneti of north Italy might be different in language and culture from later early Slavs of Venetic race, they are related by sharing some I2a and same tribal name....

    a clue that Boii falls into this Venetic race is that Serbs settle Balkan from land of Boii and Serbia and Bohemia are locations with highest I2a2 variance....

    I explained my view about Slavs in thread of Slavs.... perhaps I can add there some more explanations...



    here, I will add that Thracians were probably people of different IE origin...in my opinion, they were originally R1a same as Pelasgians throughout Balkan, Minoans on Crete and Scythians north of them.... R1b settled passing from Asia minor to Europe and carrying copper based culture... they settled in Thrace and spread from there to west...I think that J2 and E-V13 settled from Greece and Asia minor and mainly along sea coasts.. ..I2a2 spread not in Thrace proper but along Danube as Cimmerians (see map above) who later gave Trivalians and Celtic Scordisci/Serdi/Boii.... as Russian primary chronicle speaks of early Slavs moving out from those areas and going north due to expansion of Roman empire... I2a2 also spread later to Balkan as Serbs, who are perhaps same people as Tribalians and/or Celtic Scordisci/Serdi/Boii....

    perhaps both various Thracian/Scythian R1a and Cimmerian/Veneti I2a spoke similar IE languages, so ancient Greek writers didnot distinguish them as they claimed Thracians were most populous race, and as they also believed that Thracians were related to Cimmerians...

    Illyrians were in my opinion dominantly E-V13 people + J2 people, same as Greeks...
    Dardanians were E-V13 people mixed with R1b....
    Both Illyrians and Dardanians had some R1a from Thracians, Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians....
    btw. those people being R1a doesnot make them = pre-Slavic... we need to distinguish language/cultural origin from genetic origin... R1a was in my opinion originally not even IE speaking... I think that R1a in region originally spoke language like one of Minoans and Etruscans... Pelasgians are result of these R1a people mixing with IE people... from Pelasgians sprang out IE speaking R1a Scythians who spread throughout Euroasia, also in Iran...
    however, on Balkan the Pelasgians were assimilated into newly arrived Greeks, Illyrians, Dardanians...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 30-04-11 at 23:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    interesting how the basques also have something with thracian dna

    http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2009-08-29.pdf

    Zaniolo plz it doesn'y open the PDF, can you copy paste plz,

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    ethnic and language groups of Europe have very mixed history and many influences...
    thus, going back from any ethnic or linguistic group of today leads to many different tribes of past....


    there are few facts regarding Slavs to consider
    1) their genetics is clearly European which indicates living in Europe for many thousand years - e.g. look at autosomal testing results
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04...eurasians.html

    2) their first appearances in history describe them as populous race living in large areas....
    I do not care for history after christ in Europe ..at this time. I am after tribal history in the BC times.
    You know that the venetic in the adriatic did not exist after christ and they where not slavs.
    the Baltic venedi where either finnic or suebi in race and again where not slavic.
    thus, if they were not known as Slavs they were known under other tribal names...
    but what tribal names?
    Just because slavs took a tribal name that they migrated to does not give the slavs the right to own this name. The slavs migrated into celtic boii lands and declared that they where boii, is this a justification for hereditary claim, I think not.

    You fail to realise that name association is no base for legitamcy, No ancient language had a full vocabulary. The romans used greek words, german words etc etc

    historic sources suggest origin from race of Veneti...in my opinion Boii were part of this race... but I have no data to support such a claim...
    which sources? and do not bring up jordanes as he was referring to 600AD and not BC.

    worth nothing is that in historic times there are several seemingly unrelated tribes throughout Europe with same tribal name Veneti....
    with the link I provided, it states that they where a finnic people who migrated/traded in the baltic and north sea like the Phoencins did in the meditteraen sea.
    Again, they where not slavic in the BC times


    I argue that tribal names cannot be the same by accident ... I claim that in more distant past there was single tribe and that original tribe was split through perhaps 1000 or few thousand years process into several tribes with same tribal name...throughout the time through interaction with people among whom they lived those tribes developed different languages...
    well, its a fact that slavic people take the tribal name that they conquered, this is based only to legitimise there conquests

    what I claim is that original genetic basis of this Veneti race was I2a haplogroup (with passage of time through process of mixing with other people this genetic base might lost some of its frequency)....reason I claim this is that so far we find I2a* only on 2 places in Europe and those places match exactly the locations of seemingly unrelated ancient Veneti tribes in Britanny and in north Italy....thus, relation is there... and if early Slavs are of Veneti race, I2a2 that matches fairly well spread of early Slavs is indeed logical continuation of I2a* Veneti race...
    link please.

    another Veneti tribe were Paphlagonia Eneti...they disappeared from Paphlagonia but we know they were related to Cimmerians (waging wars together, and Paphlagonians originating in Hebrew world from Riphat who is son of Gomer from whom Cimmerians origin...both Gomer and Ripath are also located north of Black sea where we find both I2a2 and archeological findings of Cimmerians)...thing that Cimmerians are thought to have settled Cappadocia is reflected in island of I2a among Kurds in Cappadocia... this further confirms assumption that race of Veneti is originally about I2a people.... we also know that Cimmerians are related to archeological remains throughout Europe


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

    we can see that those archeological finding match very well spread of I2a
    You also stated the cimbri of denmark where cimmerians, since cimbri are also ( still ) in the adriatic veneti area ( veneto) does that make these Veneti , danish?

    another thing is they match well supposed spread of early Slavs....
    Cappodocians who origin from Cimmerians are in time of Strabo called white Syrians...
    Serbs of Balkan origin from white Serbs who came from land of Boiki that only matches Bohemia...
    according to manuscript of Bavarian geographer state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it...
    Seneca speaks of Serians who live in Europe around Danube, in Caspian higlands among Sarmatians, in Serica (soth Siberia/north west China) and on Red sea (?)
    Ptolemy maps Serboi tribe in Caspian highlands in Asian Sarmatia
    what is the year you are talking about ?


    anyway, while historic Veneti of north Italy might be different in language and culture from later early Slavs of Venetic race, they are related by sharing some I2a and same tribal name....

    a clue that Boii falls into this Venetic race is that Serbs settle Balkan from land of Boii and Serbia and Bohemia are locations with highest I2a2 variance....

    I explained my view about Slavs in thread of Slavs.... perhaps I can add there some more explanations...
    the only link of the boii in relation with the veneti was what I provided, they settled in Lodi in lombardia, near the veneto. if they brought the I2a2 with them , i do not know


    here, I will add that Thracians were probably people of different IE origin...in my opinion, they were originally R1a same as Pelasgians throughout Balkan, Minoans on Crete and Scythians north of them.... R1b settled passing from Asia minor to Europe and carrying copper based culture... they settled in Thrace and spread from there to west...I think that J2 and E-V13 settled from Greece and Asia minor and mainly along sea coasts.. ..I2a2 spread not in Thrace proper but along Danube as Cimmerians (see map above) who later gave Trivalians and Celtic Scordisci/Serdi/Boii.... as Russian primary chronicle speaks of early Slavs moving out from those areas and going north due to expansion of Roman empire... I2a2 also spread later to Balkan as Serbs, who are perhaps same people as Tribalians and/or Celtic Scordisci/Serdi/Boii....

    perhaps both various Thracian/Scythian R1a and Cimmerian/Veneti I2a spoke similar IE languages, so ancient Greek writers didnot distinguish them as they claimed Thracians were most populous race, and as they also believed that Thracians were related to Cimmerians...
    the thracians , where related to the trojans in the troad and the thracian tribes in anatolia where the thyni

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia

    Illyrians were in my opinion dominantly E-V13 people + J2 people, same as Greeks...
    Dardanians were E-V13 people mixed with R1b....
    Both Illyrians and Dardanians had some R1a from Thracians, Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians....
    btw. those people being R1a doesnot make them = pre-Slavic... we need to distinguish language/cultural origin from genetic origin... R1a was in my opinion originally not even IE speaking... I think that R1a in region originally spoke language like one of Minoans and Etruscans... Pelasgians are result of these R1a people mixing with IE people... from Pelasgians sprang out IE speaking R1a Scythians who spread throughout Euroasia, also in Iran...
    however, on Balkan the Pelasgians were assimilated into newly arrived Greeks, Illyrians, Dardanians...
    I already provided you the haplogroup link that the J2 people where also the veneti, who sent immigrants to crete in the 13th century.
    If illyrians have J2 and the veneti have J2 are they the same?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Zaniolo plz it doesn'y open the PDF, can you copy paste plz,

    hmm, works for me, i just tested it

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    Iapetoc, maybe this site is of use to you

    http://home.exetel.com.au/thrace/tribes.htm

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    iapetoc how could it be determined if the Pomak R1a is in indeed Slavic and not Central Asian R1a? Was the clade determined?

    regards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrace View Post
    iapetoc how could it be determined if the Pomak R1a is in indeed Slavic and not Central Asian R1a? Was the clade determined?

    regards
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrace View Post
    iapetoc how could it be determined if the Pomak R1a is in indeed Slavic and not Central Asian R1a? Was the clade determined?

    regards

    i have not said that pomaks are R1a Y-DNA,
    I have n'y found any connection,

    I said that pomaks Gorani Torbesi, are isolated comnunities,
    a gennetical search proves that all pomaks in Greece share a unique Dna Characteristic,

    The R1a of Thracians is from ancient Tombs,
    I don't know about Y-DNA of pomaks,

    but as isolated for more than 1000 (better estimation 1500 -2500 years) means that these people, especially the Pomaks in north Greece, did not marry easily foreigners,
    they live there at least before 1000 AD average after 100 AD,
    that make pomaks possible to be origins of a thracian tribe,
    on the other hand their language, is the less latin slavic language,
    that case leads to a conclusion that either Thracians were proto-slavic or near-slavic speakers,
    either pomaks are pure Slavic or Balkars that invade at 6 century AD,
    the possibilty of a small inavders familly tribe that habited mountains.

    their connections with Turkey is just a propaganda pushed by Turkish cause every muslim in Balkans must be a Turkish,
    the situation muslim = Turk, christian = Greek or Slavic is over in balkans,

    in fact the language of pomaks could a tool for propaganda for modern Bulgarians, that ancient Thracians spoke a Slavic-relative language,
    so Odryssai Thracians was the starting point of Thracian expansion

    pomaks are a tribe a sub-nation either ancient Thracian either Slavic or Balkars (the real ones)


    I don't know about DYS or pomaks DNA,
    I read about R1a of ancient tombs in posts by Macciamo and Julia.
    about Pomaks i know a lot of them from University times, (west-Greek Thrace)

    Ferata Storti fundation made a blood (Αιματολογια) search in Pomaks and found HbO -Arab in Greek pomaks, that is not that much spread in rest named pomaks,

    Pomaks are mainly small patrias (familly tribes) which many of them are not even connected,
    simply all muslim slavic-speaking are consider pomaks and that is mistake, or propapaganda pushed by some,

    Pomaks of Greece are not connected with pomaks of Albania (torbesi) for example, they have tottaly different characteristics,
    but politician name all slavic speaking muslims as pomaks,

    pomaks tribe are considered

    the pomaks of Rodope Echinos (original pomaks, with typical and standard characteristics)
    pomaks of Pazardix area BG (slavic speaking muslims, kazanlak people could be Turkish not pomaks or turned to turkish before centuries)

    Torbesi are not Pomaks but slavic speaking muslim, their acceptance as Pomaks is to categorize them as nation or a minority,
    Torbesi could be slaviciced tribe,

    Gorani are considered relatives of BG pomaks (pazardix area), also could be Serbs, that later accept islam,

    the Burgass pomaks is a strange sittuation since are also the majority of Turkish pomaks

    mainly these 5 tribes live in balkans,

    there is another tribe the karadjova pomaks but immigrated to turkey at 1920 when Greek-Turkish exchange pop was done,

    Pomak is consider every Muslim that speak slavic,
    they are not a nation but mostly tribes that share culture of islam and Slavic language,

    exept some areas in Turkey or Kazanlak in BG which could be Turkish origin, the rest of them are Slavic people or pre pre-slavic that slavicised and then Muslimized

    the pomaks of Greece Rodopa is the special occasion that could originated from Thracian or purely early Slavic, that accept Islam,

    the rest mainly Local Balkan people that first accepted slavic language and then islam religion,

    that is why Gorani Torbesi and Pomaks speak dialects with other elements than primary slavic

    the gennetical interest is in the about 30 villages of blonde Pomaks in Rodope mostly in the Greek area estimation of 20-30 000 people in GR and BG, since they are the most isolated and surely the most homogenous. And not to all that share the word Pomaks.

    as an example All muslims of west Thrace in Greece are not real POMAKS,
    but they use that inner name or an exonym,


    the case of Koprulu Mehmet pasa is still under discusion and still mention everytime on how Pomaks islamization starts

    many histories, like their origin was from Phillipolis and took mountains for avoid genocide,
    Gulem kamen, Momtsi kamen momin kamen etc
    or a beutifull woman that in order to marry Vizier all familly should accept islam
    or they knew to rose oil secret, etc,
    some even connect Rodope Pomaks with Alaric 1 of Visigoths
    All the above could be just fake propaganda or science fiction or true
    exept the case of Alaric 1 that some soldiers took mountains and left his army
    but has no prove

    the rest tribes of pomaks don't have that much interest since are considered Balkan people who either slavicised or were slavic and accept islam,

    exept the other tribes the area of Ωacha valley - Κομοτηνη and the Area Echinos Ξανθη Tribes have gennetical interest, with priority the Echinos, the most isolated,

    for Turkish goverment all Gorani Torbesi Pomaks are Turkish nation !!!!
    For Bulgarian are Bulgarians who accept islam,

    for Greeks exept the Echinos area all the rest could be Balkan people, Thracians Romans Cinquaroi, Serbs Bulgarians Egyptians Indians Greeks Roma that 1rst accept Slavic language, (or were slavic) and 2nd became muslims
    in case of kazanlak BG pomaks could be Turks immigrants that accepted slavic language
    the case of Echinos area pomaks as also the vacha valley could be Ancient Thracian origin
    or the original Slavic invaders or the real Balkars invaders,
    the case of Visigoths has no Historical evidence. but is a possible scenario,
    as also the case that are original Cumans

    if you have any new but scientific and not science fiction link plz help.

    I repeat that if pomaks of Greek Echinos are ancient Thracians then surely the connection of Ancient Thracian to be a pre -south slavic is obvious, something among Greco-Slavic Thracian and not the Illyro-Daci Thracian branch

    the 500 years of islamization of pomaks did not change their language to Turkish than the last 50 years,
    the case of Pomaks being Turks from Anadolia that dwell balkans and accept slavic is Funny,
    only in case of Kazanluk could be true, but not in isolated mountains
    since they already knew Turkish and lived in mountains isolated and at ottomans empire time, changed language to Slavic with Greek influence


    is more than funny
    Last edited by iapetoc; 02-05-11 at 08:56.

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    Where the thracians and trojans the same people?, both spoke luwian.

    Thrace had the european lands plus anatolian lands
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia


    As for the map of the hittite peoples and allies provided by yes and no
    Wilusa = Ilios = city of troy
    Taurisa = Troad = Land of the trojans
    Taurusci = People of the lands of troy

    With treviso also having people called Taurusci
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treviso


    with taurisci being celti and of venetic nature, does it make sense that these peoples migrated from the troad to the adriatic, if so, then are the trojans a thracian tribe
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

    Anyone have a link to thracian dna? ot mtdna

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    To put the question in other persepective and more simple terms, what would be the sources stating that tested Thracian tombs resuled as R1a and what would make them proto-Slavic? Regarding Pomaks only time and objective wide-scale genetic testing will tell their ancient migratory patterns. For sure these constitute an isolated and a separate ethnic entity in the Balkans, which needs additiona research. Also if some researchers have suggested Turkic connection such as a Cuman or Pecheneg that is also plausable, the Bulgars have also adopted a Slavic language instead of their native Turkic (or by some recent speculators Persian) so anything is possible, no need for funny faces. Just look at the several million of Albanians that these days pass for modern day Greeks...language is not everything, even now we communicate in English, the ancients were no different, they adapted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I do not care for history after christ in Europe ..at this time. I am after tribal history in the BC times.
    You know that the venetic in the adriatic did not exist after christ and they where not slavs.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I already provided you the haplogroup link that the J2 people where also the veneti, who sent immigrants to crete in the 13th century.
    If illyrians have J2 and the veneti have J2 are they the same?

    lol, you do not care for mentions of Veneti after Christ because ancient Veneti do not exist in that time, and than you do not have problem to identify ancient Veneti with Venetians from 13th century :)


    Illyrians and Adriatic Veneti could have been dominant or strong in J2... that is quite possible...

    But Adriatic Veneti have tribal name that origins from earlier Veneti tribe.... my point is not about how much J2 did Adriatic Veneti have, but that I2a seems to be what connects different branches of Veneti... that doesnot mean that Adriatic Veneti couldnot have lot of J2 ..it means that their tribal name likely origins from some I2a people.....

    when I say Veneti I do not speak of Adriatic Veneti but of all tribes with tribal name Veneti...as it is likely that there is some common source for tribes sharing same tribal name... I am convinced this common point for Veneti is I2a... my clues are I2a* found only in areas of Celtic Veneti and in area of Adriatic Veneti, I2a2 in Slavic people said to be of Venetic race, I2a2 in Cappadocia where Cimmerians who were related to Paphlagonia Veneti settled...


    the Baltic venedi where either finnic or suebi in race and again where not slavic.
    Just because slavs took a tribal name that they migrated to does not give the slavs the right to own this name. The slavs migrated into celtic boii lands and declared that they where boii, is this a justification for hereditary claim, I think not.
    Slavs never declared they are Boii...
    I have indicated that it is possible (donot know how likely) that Balkan Serbs are related to Boii and I did give few indications for that...

    what is the basis for your claim that there is no way that Baltic Venedi could have been Slav related people? you state it very strongly...let me hear the arguments, if any...

    You fail to realise that name association is no base for legitamcy, No ancient language had a full vocabulary. The romans used greek words, german words etc etc
    I speak of tribal names...those mostly have no preserved menaning in nations, but are condensed identity of nations that are transferred from one generation to another... e.g. let's assume that you are Albanian, it is likely that your kids will see themselves as Albanians, and their kids, and kids of their kids...it will not happen that every few generations invent new word and say from now on instead of Albanians the name is Zanipolianians or Taranianians,,, will it? it may happen that instead of Albanians changes in languages over honderds of years cause shift to Arbanians, Arbers and similar...


    well, its a fact that slavic people take the tribal name that they conquered, this is based only to legitimise there conquests
    this is not about language...
    it is about genetics...
    my claim is that I2a is what connects all different branches of Veneti...
    so the origin of Veneti tribal identity was I2a...
    if you can't stand idea that today I2a is most present in Slavic people, that is your problem...


    link please.
    I have already linked few posts before... and in zillion other occasions... read my posts...
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

    You also stated the cimbri of denmark where cimmerians, since cimbri are also ( still ) in the adriatic veneti area ( veneto) does that make these Veneti , danish?
    I have no clue what you want to say here...


    the only link of the boii in relation with the veneti was what I provided, they settled in Lodi in lombardia, near the veneto. if they brought the I2a2 with them , i do not know
    Boii didnot stay there...they moved away...so, not much genetic trace can be there due to them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post

    when I say Veneti I do not speak of Adriatic Veneti but of all tribes with tribal name Veneti...as it is likely that there is some common source for tribes sharing same tribal name... I am convinced this common point for Veneti is I2a... my clues are I2a* found only in areas of Celtic Veneti and in area of Adriatic Veneti, I2a2 in Slavic people said to be of Venetic race, I2a2 in Cappadocia where Cimmerians who were related to Paphlagonia Veneti settled...



    what is the basis for your claim that there is no way that Baltic Venedi could have been Slav related people? you state it very strongly...let me hear the arguments, if any...


    I

    this is not about language...
    it is about genetics...
    my claim is that I2a is what connects all different branches of Veneti...
    so the origin of Veneti tribal identity was I2a...
    if you can't stand idea that today I2a is most present in Slavic people, that is your problem...



    I have already linked few posts before... and in zillion other occasions... read my posts...
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap





    ..
    you give me a link which has only 1 person as I2a ............what does this indicate?

    You keep quoting eneti from the anatolia. Have you read homers books, the passage refers to Pylaemedes and the Paphalgonians from the lands of the eneti. It does not say eneti people moved anywhere, they did not even fight at troy. Did they ( the eneti) exist?
    .
    Its like Tito and the croatians from the lands of the istria

    Homer also has pylaemedes dying in 2 different chapters by 2 different people, how many pylaemedes where there. Which one is related to the "eneti" if any?

    In regards to slavic I2a....the true slavic diagontic would be I1b1

    -In india there is a city called Ayodhya and the area of this city is called Vendhia. the venets of india where called the carriers.

    -In latin, Vendes means a seller of goods a merchant, trader

    - Where the adriatc veneti just a trading people of mixed tribal races, did they make the 2 amber roads for trade . Are the venetians who where great merchants and traders have these genes from ancient times.

    What about this theory - The Venedi from the suebi/finnic language migrated to the adriatic then marched up to jutland as per 1 of the amber roads , then sail to brittany to colonise armonica

    take your pick



    A

    -yodhya
    Ayodhya

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    Zanipolo, I will move give answer to your question about Veneti and Trojan war to sea peoples topic..it fits well there...

    In regards to slavic I2a....the true slavic diagontic would be I1b1
    if you do not even know that I1b1 was renamed to I2a2 long time ago than better do not write about genetics...it seems even I2a2 is outdated name now...

    -In india there is a city called Ayodhya and the area of this city is called Vendhia. the venets of india where called the carriers.

    -In latin, Vendes means a seller of goods a merchant, trader
    - Where the adriatc veneti just a trading people of mixed tribal races, did they make the 2 amber roads for trade . Are the venetians who where great merchants and traders have these genes from ancient times.
    I guess your argument is that proto-Slavs were not merchants so they could not have carried tribal name Veneti..

    What about this theory - The Venedi from the suebi/finnic language migrated to the adriatic then marched up to jutland as per 1 of the amber roads , then sail to brittany to colonise armonica
    what about theory they came from Mars? it is not enough to have "theory"one needs to have arguments... I have relatively solid arguments about I2a being original haplogroup of Veneti.... this doesn't make Slavic in language or culture the original Veneti tribe from which all Venetic people origin, but it shows that early Slavic people were indeed from race of Veneti as claimed by Jordanes...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 04-05-11 at 00:17.

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    Well nobody knows what thracians were.
    I think they were some kind of vikings or something like that.
    (When I am talking about thracians I am refering to those ppl who had Troy as their capital.)
    I do not think the thracians were same with dinarid people,which seems to define the I2 bearers and not same with dacians,which seems to be some kind of south swedes if you look at the description (blond hair,blue eyes,taller than other barbarians),more exactly like Jordandes told,goths/geats.
    I2 people seems to be a peacefull group of people who had main activies agriculture and hearding,for Romania sheep hearding is traditional and here you find a large percentage of I2 on paternal line,in Yugoslavia in Bulgaria agriculture is traditional,in Sardinia where you find another branch of I2,sheepherding and agriculture are traditional also.
    If you look at popular costumes and popular songs from Serbia/Croatia/Romania and Sardinia those are looking very close.I did not included bosnians because muslim religion changed traditional costumes of serbians of muslim religion,which are the now called bosnians.And in Bulgaria,the bulgars came,which were a population of warriors (something like vikings or so) and maybe those changed also folklore in Bulgaria.
    What you can see in Romania and Serbo-Croatia is the the fact that in Romania 35% of the population belong to dinaric type while in Serbo-Croatia 70% or so belongs to this type,also most common color for hair is brown,most common color for eyes is brown which is no way how the thracians were looking - red hair and blue eyes or how dacians were looking - blonde hair and blue eyes.
    In Bulgaria,because of the Bulgars a lot more people have the eyes light,and not the usual brown,as it is in Romania/Sardinia/Serbo-Croatia.But if you go in north Romania/some areas of Transilvania,about 30% of the people,if not more have light eyes.Think that is the influence of goths.

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    Are the Pomaks from all regions having similar genetic character?

    In Balkans, Pomaks are showing different physical and cultural characteristics and appearances. Their languages are more or less same but obviously in different dialects. While there are many differences among all these people why do they call themselves as Pomaks? Are the Pomaks from all regions having similar genetic character?

    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    i have not said that pomaks are R1a Y-DNA,
    I have n'y found any connection,

    I said that pomaks Gorani Torbesi, are isolated comnunities,
    a gennetical search proves that all pomaks in Greece share a unique Dna Characteristic,

    The R1a of Thracians is from ancient Tombs,
    I don't know about Y-DNA of pomaks,

    but as isolated for more than 1000 (better estimation 1500 -2500 years) means that these people, especially the Pomaks in north Greece, did not marry easily foreigners,
    they live there at least before 1000 AD average after 100 AD,
    that make pomaks possible to be origins of a thracian tribe,
    on the other hand their language, is the less latin slavic language,
    that case leads to a conclusion that either Thracians were proto-slavic or near-slavic speakers,
    either pomaks are pure Slavic or Balkars that invade at 6 century AD,
    the possibilty of a small inavders familly tribe that habited mountains.

    their connections with Turkey is just a propaganda pushed by Turkish cause every muslim in Balkans must be a Turkish,
    the situation muslim = Turk, christian = Greek or Slavic is over in balkans,

    in fact the language of pomaks could a tool for propaganda for modern Bulgarians, that ancient Thracians spoke a Slavic-relative language,
    so Odryssai Thracians was the starting point of Thracian expansion

    pomaks are a tribe a sub-nation either ancient Thracian either Slavic or Balkars (the real ones)


    I don't know about DYS or pomaks DNA,
    I read about R1a of ancient tombs in posts by Macciamo and Julia.
    about Pomaks i know a lot of them from University times, (west-Greek Thrace)

    Ferata Storti fundation made a blood (Αιματολογια) search in Pomaks and found HbO -Arab in Greek pomaks, that is not that much spread in rest named pomaks,

    Pomaks are mainly small patrias (familly tribes) which many of them are not even connected,
    simply all muslim slavic-speaking are consider pomaks and that is mistake, or propapaganda pushed by some,

    Pomaks of Greece are not connected with pomaks of Albania (torbesi) for example, they have tottaly different characteristics,
    but politician name all slavic speaking muslims as pomaks,

    pomaks tribe are considered

    the pomaks of Rodope Echinos (original pomaks, with typical and standard characteristics)
    pomaks of Pazardix area BG (slavic speaking muslims, kazanlak people could be Turkish not pomaks or turned to turkish before centuries)

    Torbesi are not Pomaks but slavic speaking muslim, their acceptance as Pomaks is to categorize them as nation or a minority,
    Torbesi could be slaviciced tribe,

    Gorani are considered relatives of BG pomaks (pazardix area), also could be Serbs, that later accept islam,

    the Burgass pomaks is a strange sittuation since are also the majority of Turkish pomaks

    mainly these 5 tribes live in balkans,

    there is another tribe the karadjova pomaks but immigrated to turkey at 1920 when Greek-Turkish exchange pop was done,

    Pomak is consider every Muslim that speak slavic,
    they are not a nation but mostly tribes that share culture of islam and Slavic language,

    exept some areas in Turkey or Kazanlak in BG which could be Turkish origin, the rest of them are Slavic people or pre pre-slavic that slavicised and then Muslimized

    the pomaks of Greece Rodopa is the special occasion that could originated from Thracian or purely early Slavic, that accept Islam,

    the rest mainly Local Balkan people that first accepted slavic language and then islam religion,

    that is why Gorani Torbesi and Pomaks speak dialects with other elements than primary slavic

    the gennetical interest is in the about 30 villages of blonde Pomaks in Rodope mostly in the Greek area estimation of 20-30 000 people in GR and BG, since they are the most isolated and surely the most homogenous. And not to all that share the word Pomaks.

    as an example All muslims of west Thrace in Greece are not real POMAKS,
    but they use that inner name or an exonym,


    the case of Koprulu Mehmet pasa is still under discusion and still mention everytime on how Pomaks islamization starts

    many histories, like their origin was from Phillipolis and took mountains for avoid genocide,
    Gulem kamen, Momtsi kamen momin kamen etc
    or a beutifull woman that in order to marry Vizier all familly should accept islam
    or they knew to rose oil secret, etc,
    some even connect Rodope Pomaks with Alaric 1 of Visigoths
    All the above could be just fake propaganda or science fiction or true
    exept the case of Alaric 1 that some soldiers took mountains and left his army
    but has no prove

    the rest tribes of pomaks don't have that much interest since are considered Balkan people who either slavicised or were slavic and accept islam,

    exept the other tribes the area of Ωacha valley - Κομοτηνη and the Area Echinos Ξανθη Tribes have gennetical interest, with priority the Echinos, the most isolated,

    for Turkish goverment all Gorani Torbesi Pomaks are Turkish nation !!!!
    For Bulgarian are Bulgarians who accept islam,

    for Greeks exept the Echinos area all the rest could be Balkan people, Thracians Romans Cinquaroi, Serbs Bulgarians Egyptians Indians Greeks Roma that 1rst accept Slavic language, (or were slavic) and 2nd became muslims
    in case of kazanlak BG pomaks could be Turks immigrants that accepted slavic language
    the case of Echinos area pomaks as also the vacha valley could be Ancient Thracian origin
    or the original Slavic invaders or the real Balkars invaders,
    the case of Visigoths has no Historical evidence. but is a possible scenario,
    as also the case that are original Cumans

    if you have any new but scientific and not science fiction link plz help.

    I repeat that if pomaks of Greek Echinos are ancient Thracians then surely the connection of Ancient Thracian to be a pre -south slavic is obvious, something among Greco-Slavic Thracian and not the Illyro-Daci Thracian branch

    the 500 years of islamization of pomaks did not change their language to Turkish than the last 50 years,
    the case of Pomaks being Turks from Anadolia that dwell balkans and accept slavic is Funny,
    only in case of Kazanluk could be true, but not in isolated mountains
    since they already knew Turkish and lived in mountains isolated and at ottomans empire time, changed language to Slavic with Greek influence


    is more than funny

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    Thracians (who r pelasgian tribes) are E1B group, as the DNA of their bones proof.

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