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Thread: G2a in Sardinia and the Sherden

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    G2a in Sardinia and the Sherden

    I think that I2a represents the indigenous population of the island.
    The high frequency of G2a in Sardinia suggests massive settlement of people belonging to a culture historically linked to G2a people.

    The Sherden were a tribe among the Sea people. Some says they originated from Sardis in western anatolia where G2a frequencies re quite high and eventually gave their name to the island of Sardinia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I think that I2a represents the indigenous population of the island.
    The high frequency of G2a in Sardinia suggests massive settlement of people belonging to a culture historically linked to G2a people.

    The Sherden were a tribe among the Sea people. Some says they originated from Sardis in western anatolia where G2a frequencies re quite high and eventually gave their name to the island of Sardinia.
    interesting idea.... though I have somewhat different viewpoint...

    is there some historic data that relates people of Sardinia with town Sardis in Asia minor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    interesting idea.... though I have somewhat different viewpoint...

    is there some historic data that relates people of Sardinia with town Sardis in Asia minor?

    There are unfortunately no historic data linking the two. it's just a reconstruction based on the name. Like some Historians have linked other Sea people to Historic culture:
    *the toushah and the Etruscan
    *the peleset and the philistins

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    In the Bible the Philistin are said to have come from Kaptor (crete). It has been proven that Goliath was a Greek name and some Mycenae pottery related were found in Philistin age sites. Peleset gave Philistin and eventually Palestine. It might also be linked with Pelasges (pre-greek inhabitant of the Agean sea, present in Greece according to Homer)

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    In the Bible the Philistin are said to have come from Kaptor (crete). It has been proven that Goliath was a Greek name and some Mycenae pottery related were found in Philistin age sites. Peleset gave Philistin and eventually Palestine. It might also be linked with Pelasges (pre-greek inhabitant of the Agean sea, present in Greece according to Homer)
    Pelasgians lived on Crete, that is known... Pelast does sound as derived from Pelasgians and it leads logically to tribal name Palestines/Philistines...

    is there any data about genetics of Palestinians?

    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I think that I2a represents the indigenous population of the island.
    The high frequency of G2a in Sardinia suggests massive settlement of people belonging to a culture historically linked to G2a people.

    The Sherden were a tribe among the Sea people. Some says they originated from Sardis in western anatolia where G2a frequencies re quite high and eventually gave their name to the island of Sardinia.




    Lydia (area of Asia minor whose capital was Sardis) also shows strong I2..it is quite possible that I2a1 developed in part of Lydia and was spread from there to Sardinia....btw. genetics of Sardinia might as well be partially related to Etruscans (e.g. it could have happened that they have migrated to Sardinia during all the invasions of their lands).. it is known that Etruscans did leave Lydia in times of 18 year long hunger...

    Herodotus wrote in his work "The Histories"
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html


    The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
    Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.
    In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans



    so why assuming that G came from there and that I2a1 did not?


    btw. biggest genetic trace is usually left by most recent settlers....note that there is rather recent potential wave of G haplogroup that settled Sardinia....Alans




    speaking of Sherdana...

    The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
    The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al [Bardawil], one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
    The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_peoples

    now, Sardinians are I2a1 and Serbs are I2a2....
    this taken together with Serbonian/Sherdana link, indicates that root of tribal names Sherdana, Serbs, Sardinians is obviously the same...
    but this clue still does not really solve the puzzle as there are several scenarios possible...

    also note link to Etruscans.... Etruscans called themselves Rasena, Serbs called themselves Rasani...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C5%A1ka_(state)
    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post

    Lydia (area of Asia minor whose capital was Sardis) also shows strong I2..it is quite possible that I2a1 developed in part of Lydia and was spread from there to Sardinia...
    ...

    Haplogroup I M26 is found only is the western mediterannean sea, Iberia, parts of western France and the British island. It can't be Serbian or even Lydian.
    Then, there is only between 5% and 15% of I2a in Lydia. So between 85% and 95% of the Lydians do not carry I2A. Mny of them wuld have been J2 and there is almost no J2 in Sardinia.

    I M26 is clearly a marker of the atlantic bronze age. To me it is the nuraghic culture of Sardinia.




    For the Sherden, a Serbian origin doesn't explain G2A presence. Then I don't see why the SEA people would have originated from a NON COASTAL land like Serbia. Sea people were clearly technology advantaged (bronze weapon, ship...). So the Sherden would have come from a technologically advanced area (not in Western Europe), with access to sea and from a G2A Hotspot. I finally think that they do not come from Lydia but rather a land east of the Black sea, in present day Georgia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Haplogroup I M26 is found only is the western mediterannean sea, Iberia, parts of western France and the British island. It can't be Serbian or even Lydian.
    I was not clear I guess...

    I do not say it is Serbian, but that it is related in sense that I2a1 typical for Sardinians, and I2a2 typical for Serbs both come from same I2a branch... the split have happened long time ago, but root of tribal name seems to be the same...

    Then, there is only between 5% and 15% of I2a in Lydia. So between 85% and 95% of the Lydians do not carry I2A. Mny of them wuld have been J2 and there is almost no J2 in Sardinia.
    pay attention that we talk about periods few thousand years in past and that frequencies of haplogroups change when people move and others settle... with known history of frequent wars on this planet, it is very naive to assume that current spread equals one from e.g. 3200 years ago (which was roughly the time of sea peoples)...

    5% to 15% of I2a2 now in Lydia might have been much more 3200 years ago...

    I M26 is clearly a marker of the atlantic bronze age. To me it is the nuraghic culture of Sardinia.
    I agree that I2a1 might have been one of the key markers of atlantic bronze age...



    but how can you be so sure, and why would that exclude it from being marker of Sherden?


    For the Sherden, a Serbian origin doesn't explain G2A presence.
    why do you assume that Sherden were G2a people? If they were from Sardinia and if I2a1 is marker of Atlantic bronze age that would imply that they were I2a1, while G2a would be later arrival (e.g. Alans, but also perhaps Etruscans pushed from continental Italy)

    Then I don't see why the SEA people would have originated from a NON COASTAL land like Serbia.
    I was talking about I2a2 as mark of proto-Serbs, not neceserilly about people from Serbia.... reason I allowed myself to talk that way is that Seneca talks about people named Serians who live:
    1) in arc from India to China,
    2) in northwest China producing silk
    3) in Caspian mountains (which is location of tribe Serboi)
    4) in Europe where they rule over scattered Scythians (R1a)
    5) on shores of Red sea

    now, if I use genetics to search for Serians, I would be able to recognize hotspot in northwest China and arc from China to India, and presence in Europe, and presence in Caspian highlands....now that is what only haplogroup I provides me with...

    haplogroup I in Asia matches location of Serboi/Siraces, it makes an arc from China to India (today big part of this arc are Pashtun Sarbans), is there in northwest China...



    Sea people were clearly technology advantaged (bronze weapon, ship...). So the Sherden would have come from a technologically advanced area (not in Western Europe), with access to sea and from a G2A Hotspot.
    why from G2a spot? you do realize that there can be many waves of people of different origin who settle any location...
    second, link between Sardinia and Sherden is never proven...that theory is completely based on two things: similarity of names (same you have with Serbs as Serbonian bog is named after Sherden) and by idea that Sherden are sea peoples and that thus should be searched along coast ... it is good theory...but sea peoples were also massive land invasion, not only sea invasion... which makes me hard to be convinced that they came from Sardinia...they might have had related colony there though...

    I finally think that they do not come from Lydia but rather a land east of the Black sea, in present day Georgia.
    If you make it shores of Caspian sea, you have there Serboi tribe and lot of I2a2...or Serians in Seneca's work, or what I call proto-Serbs

    if you keep assumption that they came from Black sea area you still have there Siraces, which are considered to be same as Serboi

    both Serboi and Siraces locations do match elevated I2a2 areas...

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    btw. even though I agree that I2a1 is not due to Vandals, but much earlier arrival, I would like to hear arguments why, instead of being classified as marker of Atlantic bronze age, is I2a2 not due to Vandals...

    I ask this because I can imagine that biggest genetic imprint on Sardinia is left by last settlers: Alans and Vandals... now Alans were G2a (which doesnot mean all G2a in Sardinia origins from them, but it is hard to guess what amount does), why would not Germanic Vandals be I2a1?
    I can name 3 reasons that convinced me:
    1) lack of I2a1 in east Germany/Poland where Vandals lived before
    2) lack of correlation between Vandals settlement and I2a map given by Maciamo on this web site
    3) Sardinia fitting well into what I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern (Swedes, Suebi, Serbs, Sarbans (Pasthun tribe), Sardinians...) btw. Sherden fits well this pattern too...

    haplogroup tribal name pattern comes from idea that once long time ago people of same haplkogroup were same race or same tribe and carried same name that was latter (due to influence of taking over different languages) transformed in similar names....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post

    haplogroup tribal name pattern comes from idea that once long time ago people of same haplkogroup were same race or same tribe and carried same name that was latter (due to influence of taking over different languages) transformed in similar names....

    But sometimes there are huge differences between the original name and a place derived from this name. Burgundy region in France is named after the Burgundians who originated themselves and took their name from the Bornholm island in the Baltic sea. Today there is almost no features in common between inhabitants of the Bornholm island and those of Burgundy France

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post


    why from G2a spot? you do realize that there can be many waves of people of different origin who settle any location...
    second, link between Sardinia and Sherden is never proven...that theory is completely based on two things: similarity of names (same you have with Serbs as Serbonian bog is named after Sherden) and by idea that Sherden are sea peoples and that thus should be searched along coast ... it is good theory...

    It would be very odd that Sardinia was settled by numerous waves of G2A people but almost no EM81 and J2 while being close to northern Africa and Italy.


    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    but sea peoples were also massive land invasion, not only sea invasion... which makes me hard to be convinced that they came from Sardinia...they might have had related colony there though...


    I never said that the Sherden came Sardinia. I said that until the late bronze age, the Sardinian inhabitants were almost all I M26 like the ancients people of Atlantic bronze age (before IE invasion) and that a tribe called the Sherden, that had NAVAL battles with egypt among other sea people, settled later in Sardinia after being defeated by the Pharao's armies

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post

    why do you assume that Sherden were G2a people? If they were from Sardinia and if I2a1 is marker of Atlantic bronze age that would imply that they were I2a1, while G2a would be later arrival (e.g. Alans, but also perhaps Etruscans pushed from continental Italy)

    G2a linked with the etruscan doesn't explain why G2A frequencies are higher in southern Italy that in Northern Italy. Though it can be linked with Rhaete people of the Alps.

    I already said that the Sherden gave their name to sardinia but didn't originated from there. Like the peleset gave their name to Palestine and originated from Crete.
    We know that Sherden were sea people and technology advanced. Only the Black sea shores cultures were both technology advanced (bronze weapon) and next to sea. They can't be from the Levant because there is few J2 in Sardinia. They can't be from I M26 Land cause those people had not efficient bronze weapon.

    To me G2A is clearly carried by a sea people from the Black sea shores.
    This sea people is called Sherden

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    It would be very odd that Sardinia was settled by numerous waves of G2A people but almost no EM81 and J2 while being close to northern Africa and Italy.
    Alans were most likely G2a...and Alans (and Vandals) are the last wave that settled in Sardinia which means they likely made huge genetic impact...However, Alans being major genetic influence and G2a carriers still doesnot tell us about how numerous was G2a before....

    In Italy and Swiss you can see that G2a correlates fairly well with Etruscans and Etruscan related people, as it is known that some of them moved from Italy to Swiss....

    so, you have 2 clear sources of G2a settling Sardinia and close proximity of Sardinia .....while Sherden as source of G2a is only far fetched assumption based on assumed connection between Sardinia and Sherden which is based on linguistic similarity... besides haplogroup of Sherden is unknown...

    your reasoning sounds a bit as:
    Sherden is G2a => Sherden G2a is on Sardinia
    G2a of Sardinia is Sherden => Sherden are G2a.....

    there is circular dependency in that kind of reasoning..

    I never said that the Sherden came Sardinia. I said that until the late bronze age, the Sardinian inhabitants were almost all I M26 like the ancients people of Atlantic bronze age (before IE invasion) and that a tribe called the Sherden, that had NAVAL battles with egypt among other sea people, settled later in Sardinia after being defeated by the Pharao's armies
    ok, but this is new theory than.... as all relations between Sherden and Sardinia I've seen so far were with assumption that Sherden attacked Egypt from Sardinia....

    Atlantic bronze age is clearly not about single haplogroup as those are people wiith different cultures.... I2a1 could have been one of the key markers of that culture...but it could have been that with Sherden related name too...
    thing is you do not know tribal names from Atlantic bronze age....

    although your theory is interesting one, contrary to what you claim, there is nothing clear there - as G2a in Sardinia can easily be due to Etruscan and Alans, and as I2a1 people could have carried tribal name Sherden and still be part of Atlantic bronze age...

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    G2a linked with the etruscan doesn't explain why G2A frequencies are higher in southern Italy that in Northern Italy. Though it can be linked with Rhaete people of the Alps.
    do you know what happens when there is brutal invasion of until than unknown people...locations of attacked tribes move somewhat away from war zone or conquered zone....

    in this case people who originate from Etruscans moved towards south and on islands when they were attacked from north" first by Celtic people and much later by many numerous Germanic tribes...logically population was seeking refuge in south and on nearby islands...

    you can see same thing in Balkan where with advance of Ottoman armies Serbs position moved somewhat north and west, and Croats as well north and west on islands... that is why there were wars recently, as during Ottoman rule Serbs lost majority in Kosovo, while still see it as their historic and cultural basis, and Croats lost majority in area of Austro-Hungarian military frontier while they still saw that area as their historic basis....

    I already said that the Sherden gave their name to sardinia but didn't originated from there. Like the peleset gave their name to Palestine and originated from Crete.
    please quote the source for Sherden giving name to Sardinia and not originating there.... that is not a fact, it is assumption, made by you...

    let's suppose Sherden were from Black sea area...that still does not make them G2a, as they could have easily been I2a, J2, R1b, R1a, E...

    We know that Sherden were sea people and technology advanced. Only the Black sea shores cultures were both technology advanced (bronze weapon) and next to sea.
    ok, this sounds as bit better explanation....
    They can't be from the Levant because there is few J2 in Sardinia. They can't be from I M26 Land cause those people had not efficient bronze weapon.
    you make finite conclusions based on assumptions that likely do not hold...
    we do not know whether Sherden have ever settled Sardinia, and even if they did their genetic imprint might have been minimal and not visible anymore... they could have easily been J2 (btw. I saw on other thread that you push G2a as Aryans as well, but Aryans likely were dominantly J2)

    To me G2A is clearly carried by a sea people from the Black sea shores.
    This sea people is called Sherden
    sorry, but it is not clear at all...
    it is one of possible scenarios....
    you need much more arguments to make it clear...

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    But sometimes there are huge differences between the original name and a place derived from this name. Burgundy region in France is named after the Burgundians who originated themselves and took their name from the Bornholm island in the Baltic sea. Today there is almost no features in common between inhabitants of the Bornholm island and those of Burgundy France
    true,so name Sardinia might be completely unrelated to tribal groups that were ancestors of today G2a and I2a1 spreads in Sardinia....

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    A Documentation which does also connect Sherdana with Sardinians.

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    I keep a distant eye on this thread:
    Thanks for the document
    I think someones do too quickly conclusions about the presenc eog Y-G2 in Sardinia: the evidence seams that Y-G has a complicated story in Europe and that we need deeper knowledge of SNP's according to places before going too hastly to theories making - Y-G2 or 2 differents subgroups of it can having reached Sardinia in 2 different times: a neolithic one, with male agricultors and more recent times with "Sea People" and other anatolian (geographically) people - Etruscans (not sure), and Shardana (I always believed Shardana ha Sardinian were from the same ethnic name) - but even speaking about Shardana, their participation into the war against Egypt is not the absolute proof they were not yet settled in sardinia before that time, even if a prefer personally the thesis of a late enough arrival in Sardinia - it 's very interesting and frustating at the same time by lack of detaild enough data - here as in other questions, we have to wait a little yet;

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I keep a distant eye on this thread:
    Thanks for the document
    I think someones do too quickly conclusions about the presenc eog Y-G2 in Sardinia: the evidence seams that Y-G has a complicated story in Europe and that we need deeper knowledge of SNP's according to places before going too hastly to theories making - Y-G2 or 2 differents subgroups of it can having reached Sardinia in 2 different times: a neolithic one, with male agricultors and more recent times with "Sea People" and other anatolian (geographically) people - Etruscans (not sure), and Shardana (I always believed Shardana ha Sardinian were from the same ethnic name) - but even speaking about Shardana, their participation into the war against Egypt is not the absolute proof they were not yet settled in sardinia before that time, even if a prefer personally the thesis of a late enough arrival in Sardinia - it 's very interesting and frustating at the same time by lack of detaild enough data - here as in other questions, we have to wait a little yet;
    The ethnic name Sardinia might originated from Sherdana but the people of Sardinia for most part are most probably remands of the early Neolithic farmers. As we know today, during Neolithic Bulgaria was populated by Sardinian like people (but most similar to other Neolithic farmers of Sweden and Spain). those Sardinian like farmers were replaced or mixed with people who have to be strong in West Asian component since this component is very recent on the Balkans. The appearance of stronger North European component can be explained with expansion of Slavs but we have no other explanation for the appearance of West Asian component after the Neolithic.

    In my opinion the earliest Farmers leaving the Near East to settle in Europe were mostly Mediterranean (Sardinian like) people from Southeastern Anatolia-Levant. And than during late Neolithic-Bronze Age a second wave (Proto-Indoeuropeans?) brought the West Asian component. This is the only conclusion I get to.

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    What the author does not see or show us is the city of ΑΒΑΡΙΣ (avaris-abaris)

    if you search Avaris city you will see that it was a Minoan colony before Hyksos.

    Now many times I said that Pelasgians = Thyrrenians = Etruscans, probably = Hattians
    Sardinia was inhabited by Thyrrenians

    Documantation is wrong about timing,

    Avaris was a minoan colony, upon which Hyksos build their capital, and bring the Israelites as slaves,

    so it is certain that avaris had Aegean population non Israelitic,

    and the simmilarity is not only in Sardinia -Sherdana
    but
    1. Sardinia - Sherdana
    2 Falisti -Phillistines - Pleset- Pelasgians
    3 Troyans - (E)Truscans
    4 Thera - Thyrrenians

    except the common toponymes of Hat(h)
    Hatria
    Hattica
    Hatwurat
    Hatussa
    etc
    Last edited by Yetos; 13-11-12 at 19:57.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The ethnic name Sardinia might originated from Sherdana but the people of Sardinia for most part are most probably remands of the early Neolithic farmers. As we know today, during Neolithic Bulgaria was populated by Sardinian like people (but most similar to other Neolithic farmers of Sweden and Spain). those Sardinian like farmers were replaced or mixed with people who have to be strong in West Asian component since this component is very recent on the Balkans. The appearance of stronger North European component can be explained with expansion of Slavs but we have no other explanation for the appearance of West Asian component after the Neolithic.

    In my opinion the earliest Farmers leaving the Near East to settle in Europe were mostly Mediterranean (Sardinian like) people from Southeastern Anatolia-Levant. And than during late Neolithic-Bronze Age a second wave (Proto-Indoeuropeans?) brought the West Asian component. This is the only conclusion I get to.
    I agree with you about Sardinia/Sherdana naming of the island - the known name bearers can, as in a lot of other places, be carried there by a late enough arrival of dominant people - concerning the other parts of your post, I have no sound opinion : I wrote it was difficult to determine the different waves and their respective weight because even with an autosomal "sketche" of the population, we can't be sure than a componant was not carried there by more than a (cultural/etnic) wave, more than a time, cause a lot of colonizators came from the same geographical areas or from someones very close... by exception, here, the Y and mt Hg deeply studied could give us more accurate answers for different waves of same source.
    I'm not sure of nothing here; I bet just that the majority of autosomals of Sardinians came there at Mesolithic times and NOT at Neolithic times (but neolithic could have brought some of them too), but it's just a bet - more than a scenario is possible?
    all the way, the 'west-asian component' is somehow distinct from the 'gedrosian' one (concerning the I-E link)- I 'll try to study better the different poolings of autosomals proposed for today populations and the FEW pre-bronze people autosomals we have (almost nothing!) in Europe
    good afternoon!

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    Vey often I feel uneasy when using cultural stage names because we give them some chronological value and that is confusing: in another thread I spoke about a survey affirming that a sort of second mesolithic (culturally speaking) wave moved westwards in Europe between say - 6000/4000 BC as "swept away" by the advance of the true neolithic farmers or breeders. time: neolithic according to eastern criteria - culture: mesolithic! the problem: 3 different bets concerning the geographic ultime source!
    and a lot of cultures of S-France in Eneolithic (late) was the result of very few mix of genes but acculturation of mesolithic population - and yet, with variants or depth for crossing and culture in a lot of places!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    I agree with you about Sardinia/Sherdana naming of the island - the known name bearers can, as in a lot of other places, be carried there by a late enough arrival of dominant people - concerning the other parts of your post, I have no sound opinion : I wrote it was difficult to determine the different waves and their respective weight because even with an autosomal "sketche" of the population, we can't be sure than a componant was not carried there by more than a (cultural/etnic) wave, more than a time, cause a lot of colonizators came from the same geographical areas or from someones very close... by exception, here, the Y and mt Hg deeply studied could give us more accurate answers for different waves of same source.
    I'm not sure of nothing here; I bet just that the majority of autosomals of Sardinians came there at Mesolithic times and NOT at Neolithic times (but neolithic could have brought some of them too), but it's just a bet - more than a scenario is possible?

    I understand what you mean but we know from Neolithic and Mesolithic samples that only the farmers are predominantly Mediterranean and the Hunter and Gatherers are North European like. So I dont believ we can assume that this component reached Europe during Mesolthic.

    The thing is that Europe lacks West Asian like admixture till the Bronze age.



    [/all the way, the 'west-asian component' is somehow distinct from the 'gedrosian' one (concerning the I-E link)- I 'll try to study better the different poolings of autosomals proposed for today populations and the FEW pre-bronze people autosomals we have (almost nothing!) in Europe
    good afternoon!

    Actually Gedrosia is much more similar to the original West Asian component than Caucasus. Dienekes did break up of the components on his blog.

    Gedrosia/Caucasus are jsut two parts of the West Asian component. And the Gedrosia component seems more West Asian like than Caucasus.


    Here is Dienekes break up of the components.


    _7.jpg


    Gedrosia is 90% West Asian + 10% ANI South Asian
    Caucasus is 55% West Asian + 40% Southern and 5% Atlantic Baltic.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/09/...decad-k7b.html


    have a good night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I understand what you mean but we know from Neolithic and Mesolithic samples that only the farmers are predominantly Mediterranean and the Hunter and Gatherers are North European like.
    What you probably mean is not North_European but Atlantic_Baltic. If I remember correctly, the hunter-gatherer from La Brana was only half North_European and half Atlantic_Med (K12b). Only the Ajv samples from Sweden are mostly North_european, but they are not so relevant since they were found very far in the north-east already. But even they already had some Atlantic_med admixture (approx. 10-20 %). I'm not saying that Atlantic_Baltic is false, just that it seems to me less of a pure component than North_european.

    So I dont believ we can assume that this component reached Europe during Mesolthic.
    Based on the agruments above I'd argue that earlier mesolithic southern/mediterranean admixtures in southern and western hunter-gatherers are not so unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    What you probably mean is not North_European but Atlantic_Baltic. If I remember correctly, the hunter-gatherer from La Brana was only half North_European and half Atlantic_Med (K12b). Only the Ajv samples from Sweden are mostly North_european, but they are not so relevant since they were found very far in the north-east already. But even they already had some Atlantic_med admixture (approx. 10-20 %). I'm not saying that Atlantic_Baltic is false, just that it seems to me less of a pure component than North_european.

    Based on the agruments above I'd argue that earlier mesolithic southern/mediterranean admixtures in southern and western hunter-gatherers are not so unlikely.
    I agree with you: everyone has his arguments here:
    but as you I noitice some 'mediterranean' (not too well defined) componant among hunters-gatherers of far Sweden, even if light, and heavier among the one of Spain (so, before neolithic!) - I note too what I consider as marks of "archaïc' remnant from Asia and Africa among the swede hunter-gatherers!!! maybe the african part was mixed with a sub-componant of 'mediterranean'? (mesolithic?) -
    concerning the problem of lack or 'west-asian' among the swede farmer I think that farming was introduced in Scandinavia as on other European shores (Atlantic for the most) by 'long-barrows-' akin people (atlantic neolithic, inspired by cardial maybe but creating their own culture after , not the continental danubian neolithic where I see Y-G2 associated to Y-E1b-V13, at first - and, leaved apart the problem of boosting elite, I think that these megalithers beared a lot of 'mediterranean', and no 'west-asian' -

    all that if the so called H-G-s was not yet crossed with some neolithic females... but the %s seam showing that it would have been old, what I don't believe...

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    The Mediterranean clusters are the most remote one's overall according to Dienekes', so concerning West Eurasia they are the best defined among all.

    There you are from the latest Globe13 analysis: http://dodecad.blogspot.com.es/2012/...t-results.html

    Bra1 already shows 25% of this component. I know the SNPs tested are very low, but this isn't exactly what I would call a minor component. So in my opinion it's likely that the so called Mediterranean component was already present in Southwest Europe during the Mesolithic, and who knows if also along the rest of Southern Europe.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012...-dna-with.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    The Mediterranean clusters are the most remote one's overall according to Dienekes', so concerning West Eurasia they are the best defined among all.

    There you are from the latest Globe13 analysis: http://dodecad.blogspot.com.es/2012/...t-results.html

    Bra1 already shows 25% of this component. I know the SNPs tested are very low, but this isn't exactly what I would call a minor component. So in my opinion it's likely that the so called Mediterranean component was already present in Southwest Europe during the Mesolithic, and who knows if also along the rest of Southern Europe.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012...-dna-with.html
    I agree concerning elderness 'mediter' in Europe, before neolithic introduction (maybe the "second mesolithic", rather than the "first mesolithic"?: two candidates for the first mesolithic: a paleolithic conitnuity + an early mesolithic introduction from East, yet) -
    for the definition of 'mediterranean' you can see, reading the link you send me (thanks) that according to the branching 'systhem', respective positions of 'mediter', 'west-asian', 'south-west-asian' and 'north-european' are not so clear -
    I would be glad if I could knew how these branchings are made concerning phylology, aside the geographic aspect (I suppose it is difficult)-

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