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Thread: Macedonians

  1. #426
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    I want all facts about ancient Macedonia start to write now - everything and link source. Not a single word about FYRO MACEDONIA.

    START NOW OR BE FOREVER SPAMMERS. SHOW YOUR SKILLS.

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    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    Talking

    DejaVU

    one word SCHIZOPHRENEIA

    Greek Makedonians migrating from South-East olymp to north
    First they PUSHED the Tribe Pieri a Greco-Thrasian Tribe of Orpheus ancient Leveithra
    from the city of Herakleia (Hercules) and Dion north to Phylakes and Balla (Velventos-Near Servia and Katalonia Ballena) Servia in Proto-Makedonian means
    Velventos
    Phylakes means Tower of Guardians
    Balla and its settlements
    ballonEllenes
    ballonista
    Ballena
    Druanista
    Druassa
    the nearby Pieri-Thracian city before Makedonian until today have the name Kitros according Greek-Tyrrshenian
    Cotys -Cotyr means tough in Tyrrshenian

    Later they went north

    west of Phylacaes went from west Olymp the Lokroi tribe (Elimiotans) build Aiani
    Aeolians lokroi (inland tribe from central Greece to Thessaly to Makedonia, cousins of Epirotans)
    Lokri And Argeiad Makedonians unite and tooksome Vrygian lands while the Illyrians took their lands above Prespes lakes (a Greco thracian tribe)
    the remains of Vrygian the Argeiads sons of Hercules the Lokroi sons of Makednos the Boettiaeans
    According to Strabo, Bottiaeans were Cretan immigrants from Iapygia
    make the Makedonian Kingom
    the name Makedonia original belongs to Lokroi West Makedonia and the name Argeads to Central Makedoniaand build Capital Aiges and later Pella
    Lokroi conquer all lands until Prespes,
    and Argeiades all the south Greek colonies in sea starting from Pydna (big port)
    Karamos after the conquer of Pydna from Euboeans Became king of a oligarchy system-alliance
    like Mycenae of a Big Kings and a council of kings
    (like Agamemnon Big king and Menelaus, Nestror, Odysseas small kings)
    slowly that united kingdom became strong and pushed Thrasians Bithyni Maedi to East and assimilate the Greco-Thrasian Mygdonians
    later wars among Makedonians and Dardani and Makedonians and Paioni make new alliances and a complex system
    for example Illyrians of Ohrid above Prespes lakes join Makedonian Kingdom (Arideans)council against Dardani (illyrothrasian) as also Paionians against Odrysse-Thracians
    But Paionians had also another Royal House although they where Makedonian best alliance and high council members except Almopeans
    Paionian lands where west from Aksos-Aksios river (Vardar) until Mt Haimos
    the big union among Greeks , Illyrians and thracians was done under king Amyntas,
    but Makedonians were so strong that even before Amyntas build colonies inside Thracian lands
    like odomantikes sintikes bisalti, Phillip manage easily to conquer that lands and unite them and then started the big campaign to unite Greeks
    the rest is known

    Later when Romans came Paionians were weak and mostly assimilated by Makedonians and became the MAKEDONIA SECUNDA and makedonia became Makedonia PRIMERA
    from that starts the bullshit of today
    and continues with the stupidity of Byzantines to name Makedonia today Bulgaria, Thessalinique the Makedonia Primera, and Bulgaria today Fyrom and Serbia and Dardania

    when Slavic nations came they pass Donau and make their own counsils and Kingdoms
    the most known the Serbs own the road from Thessaloniki to Donau via rivers, the aqua system,
    Serbs brought another air of indepence as also Balkars later, and another lingua that unite with ancient thracian (probably IE similarity) and give another accent than Roman or Greek similar to ancient Thracian and create the South-Slavic languages
    which are a mix of ancient North-Thracian and Odrysse-Thracian
    Cyrril and Method etc the rest is known, Dusan Simeon Samuel Slavic Kings Families
    orthodoxia, ottomans, Slavonizations and later Islamizations and at west Unia and later Catholicism

    the history remains if you see Armani (Aromani) Roman speaking people

    First they PUSHED the Tribe Pieri a Greco-Thrasian Tribe of Orpheus ancient Leveithra






    WHAT IS THAT?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonian_language

    The Paeonian language is the poorly attested language of the ancient Paeonians, whose kingdom once stretched north of Macedon into Dardania and in earlier times into southwestern Thrace.

    Modern linguists are uncertain on the classification of Paeonian, due to the extreme scarcity of materials we have on this language. On one side are Wilhelm Tomaschek and Paul Kretschmer, who claim it belonged to the Illyrian family, and on the other side is Dimiter Dečev, who claims affinities with Thracian.

    Stoboi (nowadays Gradsko), name of a city, from *stob(h) (cf. Old Prussian stabis "rock", Old Church Slavonic stoboru, "pillar", Old English stapol, "post", Ancient
    Greek stobos, "scolding, bad language");


    WHAT IS THIS????????????????



    Centuries later under Diocletian, Paeonia and Pelagonia formed a province called Macedonia Secunda or Macedonia Salutaris, belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum. By AD 400, however, the Paeonians had lost their identity, and the term Paeonia was rendered a mere geographic identifier.

    Macedonia Secunda NOT MAKEDONIA PRIMERA

    WHO IS THIS???????

    The Cambridge ancient history The Cambridge Ancient History, Martin Percival Charlesworth, ISBN 0-521-85073-8, 978-0-521-85073-5 Volume 4 of Persia, Greece and the Western Mediterranean, C. 525 to 479 B.C, John Boardman,page 252,"The Paeonians were the earlier owners of some of these mines, but after their defeat in the coastal sector they maintained their independence in the mainland and coined large denominations in the upper Strymon and the Upper Axius area in the names of the Laeaei and the Derrones"

    The Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 315, "... was that a number of Paeonian tribes - the Siriopaeones, Paeoplae, ...

    he Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 452,"... Then he passed through the country of the Doberes and Paeoplae (Paeonian tribes living north of Pangaeum), and continued in a ..."


    Paeonian Kings



    In the Iliad, Asteropaios (Greek: Ἀστεροπαῖος; Latin: Asteropaeus) was a leader of the Trojan-allied Paeonians along with fellow warrior Pyraechmes. Asteropaios was the son of Pelagon, who was the son of the river god Axios and the mortal woman Periboia, daughter of Akessamenos (Greek: Ἀκεσσάμενος). Asteropaios was a newcomer to the war at the start of the Iliad; he had only been in Troy for less than two weeks.[1]

    The name Asteropaios exist Still in Greek Makedonian names specially among Armani people

    Pyraechmes (Πυραίχμης) was, along with Asteropaeus, a leader of the Paeonians in the Trojan War. He came from the city of Amydon. Although Homer mentions Pyraechmes as the leader of the Paeonians early on in the Iliad, in the Trojan Catalogue, Pyraechmes plays a minor role compared to the more illustrious Asteropaeus, a later arrival to the front. Unlike Asteropaeus, Homer does not provide a pedigree for Pyraechmes (although Dictys Cretensis says his father was Axius - also the name of a river in Paeonia). Pyraechmes was killed in battle by Patroclus: dressed in Achilles' armor, Patroclus routed the panicked Trojans, and the first person he killed was Pyraechmes.

    Langarus (died 335 BC), king of the Agrianians, was a contemporary of Alexander the Great (336–323 BC), with whom he ingratiated himself even before the death of Philip II, previous king of Macedon. He rendered Alexander important services shortly after his accession, in his expedition against the Illyrians and Taulantians, when the Autariatae were preparing to attack him on his march. Langarus by an invasion of their territory prevented them from carrying their purpose into effect. Alexander conferred on him the most distinguished marks of his regard and favour, and promised him his half-sister Cynane in marriage; but Langarus died soon after his return home.
    [1]Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri, i. 5

    Also
    When Eucharistus was archon at Athens, the Romans elected as consuls Quintus Servilius and Quintus Genucius. During their term of office Philip sent ambassadors to Athens and persuaded the assembly to make peace with him on the ground that he abandoned for all time any claim to Amphipolis.2 [2] Now that he was relieved of the war with the Athenians and had information that the king of the Paeonians, Agis, was dead, he conceived that he had the opportunity to attack the Paeonians. Accordingly, having conducted an expedition into Paeonia and defeated the barbarians in a battle, he compelled the tribe to acknowledge allegiance to the Macedonians.

    Diodorus Siculus


    kausia or Beret (Francais)



    Depictions of the kausia can be found on a variety of coins and statues found from the Mediterranean to the Greco-Bactrian kingdom and the Indo-Greeks in northwestern India. A modern descendant may be the pakul from the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan.



    The name 'Skudra' was probably Phrygian for the homeland, later called Thrace, which the Phrygians had left in migrating to Asia (See Bryges). The peoples of the satrapy were named in c. 492 BC as three : The Saka Paradraya, meaning Sacae (a general name for Scythian-type people) beyond the sea, probably the Getae, who resembled the Scythians in customs and equipment; the Skudra themselves, mainly Thracians; and Yauna Takabara or Ionians with a shield-like hat. The last were mentioned also on glazed bricks at the palace at Susa. Some scholars have supposed that the Sacae 'beyond the sea' were Scythian peoples of the Crimea whom Darius had subjugated, but it seems improbable that Persia did hold that area, and that if she had it was assigned to Skudra rather than to the territories in Georgia, centred on Tbilisi. Envoys from Skudra bringing tribute carried two javelins, a long knife and a small round shield, which were characteristic of Thracian troops later (See Pls. Vol., p1,.40 XIX.). The Greek-speaking people with the shield-like hat were the Macedones, renowned for wearing the sun hat, as Alexander I of Macedon did on his fine coins from 478 B.C . The Greek-speaking citizens of the colonial city states on the seaboard were not mentioned; nor did they wear a sun-hat.The Persepolis Fortification Archive has numerous references to workers from Skudra and the most obvious candidates for Europeans working in some numbers deep within the Persian empire are the Paionians whom Herodotus makes so much of in his narrative


    Any similarity of Skydra or Skodra ???????

    or now do you understand that
    Fyrom's "SFATI" is PERSIAN WORD????????????

    whatch the names
    cotys
    kotys

    watch the Sinopean cities
    In the 8th century BCE the city of Cotyora was founded in this area - one of a string of colonies along the Black Sea coast established by the ancient Greek Aegean city of Miletos. The city of Ordu was established in the 15th century to serve as an Ottoman military center and headquarters.

    Now do you understand who were the Greeks and the Thracians?
    and why there is a big I2a Near Messopotamia?
    do you understand that Greeks and Troyan speak similar languge as also Lation?


    Dropion(250 BC - 230 BC) was an ancient Paeonian[1]king, son of Leon of Paionia.

    Dropion or Driopas or Δριοψ was a paeonian king that took place in OLYMPIC GAMES AS GREEK AND HAS A STATUE IN OLYMPIA
    also his grand fathers Lycceius -Lykeias Aytoleon and Aristos

    do you understand that all these names are Greek
    Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
    Lykeias means wolf -man
    Aytoleon means kings of lions
    Aristos means perfect
    Agis Dorian name means Leader in Dorian Greek (achaic aga or achas)
    Patraeus or Patreos means according to Father - Fathers Glory and Pride
    Pigres means fists
    Pigmaleon means Boxer (fists of Lion)
    kotys Greek kothour-os means tough Kotyora(city) means tough tower guard

    Paeoni or Paeople means People - Nation
    Doberes means local people the native people that lived Before (endo-Feron->ndo-Beren)
    (endo = ovde = tosk = tuk Feron or Veron means old, pure traditional ex city GRVeria BGBeroia SYRIA Berea
    modern Greek Ntopeoi or Dopei (Dobei)

    learn Thracian and Greek and you realize more


    and watch that
    Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIAKES (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people) also Serres

    SeRoPaia-Kes ->> SRP-KS or SeRP-eS
    the huns were named Balkar
    but the Romans name the Odrysse Thracian Vulkans -Bulkans Before the invasion of Asparuch
    and the area north and east of Mt Haimos (Hemos) Vulkania - Bulkania
    Bulk Means the same same with Greek Thrax (Thrax means Lord of Fire, Vulkan is the metallurgy with Fire)
    the Vulks of Hephaisto
    probably the Iron age in peninsula started at todays Bulgaria's area of Ferruginous lands (near Dzumagia) west of Mt Haimos

    Although Balkan is a Turkish word

    DejaVu
    watch the names
    George Gr Γεωργιος Georgios
    Serbian Georgevic Greek Georgeadis vic=v+i+t+s -> (v+t=d) +i+s ->dis Nominative case
    Bulg Georgiev Greek Georgiou v->ou or u possesive case
    Female Georgieva Greek Georgiena v->n Female

    Tyrrshenian language (sub-saharan )
    mother language of many
    Last edited by iapetoc; 05-02-11 at 16:21.

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    FYROM = Titostan

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    DejaVU

    one word SCHIZOPHRENEIA

    Greek Makedonians migrating from South-East olymp to north
    from the cityof Herakleia (Hercules) and Dion north





    WHAT IS THAT?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonian_language

    The Paeonian language is the poorly attested language of the ancient Paeonians, whose kingdom once stretched north of Macedon into Dardania and in earlier times into southwestern Thrace.

    Modern linguists are uncertain on the classification of Paeonian, due to the extreme scarcity of materials we have on this language. On one side are Wilhelm Tomaschek and Paul Kretschmer, who claim it belonged to the Illyrian family, and on the other side is Dimiter Dečev, who claims affinities with Thracian.

    Stoboi (nowadays Gradsko), name of a city, from *stob(h) (cf. Old Prussian stabis "rock", Old Church Slavonic stoboru, "pillar", Old English stapol, "post", Ancient
    Greek stobos, "scolding, bad language");


    WHAT IS THIS????????????????



    Centuries later under Diocletian, Paeonia and Pelagonia formed a province called Macedonia Secunda or Macedonia Salutaris, belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum. By AD 400, however, the Paeonians had lost their identity, and the term Paeonia was rendered a mere geographic identifier.

    Macedonia Secunda NOT MAKEDONIA PRIMERA

    WHO IS THIS???????

    The Cambridge ancient history The Cambridge Ancient History, Martin Percival Charlesworth, ISBN 0-521-85073-8, 978-0-521-85073-5 Volume 4 of Persia, Greece and the Western Mediterranean, C. 525 to 479 B.C, John Boardman,page 252,"The Paeonians were the earlier owners of some of these mines, but after their defeat in the coastal sector they maintained their independence in the mainland and coined large denominations in the upper Strymon and the Upper Axius area in the names of the Laeaei and the Derrones"

    The Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 315, "... was that a number of Paeonian tribes - the Siriopaeones, Paeoplae, ...

    he Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 452,"... Then he passed through the country of the Doberes and Paeoplae (Paeonian tribes living north of Pangaeum), and continued in a ..."


    Paeonian Kings

    In the Iliad, Asteropaios (Greek: Ἀστεροπαῖος; Latin: Asteropaeus) was a leader of the Trojan-allied Paeonians along with fellow warrior Pyraechmes. Asteropaios was the son of Pelagon, who was the son of the river god Axios and the mortal woman Periboia, daughter of Akessamenos (Greek: Ἀκεσσάμενος). Asteropaios was a newcomer to the war at the start of the Iliad; he had only been in Troy for less than two weeks.[1]

    The name Asteropaios is Still in Greek Makedonian names of Armani people

    Pyraechmes (Πυραίχμης) was, along with Asteropaeus, a leader of the Paeonians in the Trojan War. He came from the city of Amydon. Although Homer mentions Pyraechmes as the leader of the Paeonians early on in the Iliad, in the Trojan Catalogue, Pyraechmes plays a minor role compared to the more illustrious Asteropaeus, a later arrival to the front. Unlike Asteropaeus, Homer does not provide a pedigree for Pyraechmes (although Dictys Cretensis says his father was Axius - also the name of a river in Paeonia). Pyraechmes was killed in battle by Patroclus: dressed in Achilles' armor, Patroclus routed the panicked Trojans, and the first person he killed was Pyraechmes.

    Langarus (died 335 BC), king of the Agrianians, was a contemporary of Alexander the Great (336–323 BC), with whom he ingratiated himself even before the death of Philip II, previous king of Macedon. He rendered Alexander important services shortly after his accession, in his expedition against the Illyrians and Taulantians, when the Autariatae were preparing to attack him on his march. Langarus by an invasion of their territory prevented them from carrying their purpose into effect. Alexander conferred on him the most distinguished marks of his regard and favour, and promised him his half-sister Cynane in marriage; but Langarus died soon after his return home.[1]



    1. Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri, i. 5
    When Eucharistus was archon at Athens, the Romans elected as consuls Quintus Servilius and Quintus Genucius. During their term of office Philip sent ambassadors to Athens and persuaded the assembly to make peace with him on the ground that he abandoned for all time any claim to Amphipolis.2 [2] Now that he was relieved of the war with the Athenians and had information that the king of the Paeonians, Agis, was dead, he conceived that he had the opportunity to attack the Paeonians. Accordingly, having conducted an expedition into Paeonia and defeated the barbarians in a battle, he compelled the tribe to acknowledge allegiance to the Macedonians.

    Diodorus Siculus


    kausia or Beret (Francais)



    Depictions of the kausia can be found on a variety of coins and statues found from the Mediterranean to the Greco-Bactrian kingdom and the Indo-Greeks in northwestern India. A modern descendant may be the pakul from the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan.



    The name 'Skudra' was probably Phrygian for the homeland, later called Thrace, which the Phrygians had left in migrating to Asia (See Bryges). The peoples of the satrapy were named in c. 492 BC as three : The Saka Paradraya, meaning Sacae (a general name for Scythian-type people) beyond the sea, probably the Getae, who resembled the Scythians in customs and equipment; the Skudra themselves, mainly Thracians; and Yauna Takabara or Ionians with a shield-like hat. The last were mentioned also on glazed bricks at the palace at Susa. Some scholars have supposed that the Sacae 'beyond the sea' were Scythian peoples of the Crimea whom Darius had subjugated, but it seems improbable that Persia did hold that area, and that if she had it was assigned to Skudra rather than to the territories in Georgia, centred on Tbilisi. Envoys from Skudra bringing tribute carried two javelins, a long knife and a small round shield, which were characteristic of Thracian troops later (See Pls. Vol., p1,.40 XIX.). The Greek-speaking people with the shield-like hat were the Macedones, renowned for wearing the sun hat, as Alexander I of Macedon did on his fine coins from 478 B.C . The Greek-speaking citizens of the colonial city states on the seaboard were not mentioned; nor did they wear a sun-hat.The Persepolis Fortification Archive has numerous references to workers from Skudra and the most obvious candidates for Europeans working in some numbers deep within the Persian empire are the Paionians whom Herodotus makes so much of in his narrative


    Any similarity of Skydra skodra ???????

    or now do you understand that
    Fyrom's "SFATI" is PERSIAN WORD????????????

    whatch the names
    cotys
    kotys

    watch the Sinopean cities
    In the 8th century BCE the city of Cotyora was founded in this area - one of a string of colonies along the Black Sea coast established by the ancient Greek Aegean city of Miletos. The city of Ordu was established in the 15th century to serve as an Ottoman military center and headquarters.

    Now do you understand who were the Greeks and the Thracians?
    and why there is a big I2a Near Messopotamia?
    do you understand that Greeks and Troyan speak similar languge as also Lation?


    Dropion(250 BC - 230 BC) was an ancient Paeonian[1]king, son of Leon of Paionia.

    Dropion or Driopas was a paeonian king that took p[lace in OLYMPIC GAMES AS GREEK AND HAS A STATUE IN OLYMPIA
    also his grand fathers Lycceius -Lykeias Aytoleon and Aristos

    do you understand that all these names are Greek
    Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
    Lykeias means wolf -man
    Aytoleon means kings of lions
    Aristos means perfect
    Agis Dorian name means Leader in Dorian Greek
    Patraeus or Patreos means according to Father - Fathers Glory and Pride
    Pigres means fists
    Pigmaleon means Boxer (fists of Lion)
    kotys Greek kothor-os means tough Kotyora(city) means tough tower guard

    Paeoni or Paeople means People - Nation
    Doberes means local people the native people that lived Before (endo-Feron->ndo-Beren)
    (endo = ovde = tosk = tuk Feron or Veron means old, pure traditional ex city GRVeria BGBeroia SYRIA Berea
    modern Greek Ntopeoi or Dopei (Dobei)

    learn Thracian and Greek and you realize more

    and watch that
    Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIKES

    SiRoPaiaKes ->> SRPKS ->> Srpski (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people)
    the huns were named Balkar
    but the Romans name the Odrysse Thracian Vulkans -Bulkans Before the invasion of Asparuch
    and the area north and east of Mt Haimos (Hemos) Vulkania - Bulkania
    Bulk Means the same same with Greek Thrax (Thrax means Lord of Fire, Vulkan is the metallurgy with Fire)
    the Vulks of Hephaistos
    probably the Iron age in peninsula started at todays Bulgaria's area of Ferrus lands (near Dzumagia) west of Mt Haimos
    Iapetoc
    Northwest of the boundaries of ancient (Doric) Macedonia were the Illyrians (Albanians ancestors).

    But I think that is near the northeast must have been some I2a population.

    What do you think whether I2a have been Paeonians or other tribes and who?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    watch Fyrom AT Makedonian kingdom times
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Paeonians.png

    now HOW YES NO
    do you understand????
    Can Paeonians be same people as Pannoni(ans)? e.g. I2a2 proto-south Slavs

    Because Pannoni did live in most of Illyria in time of Strabo...
    read what Strabo says about Illyria....

    it seems that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians in their war against Celtic Boii
    and that it was ressetled by Pannonians...

    I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
    The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
    The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
    ...
    People formerly very powerful are extinct, or were reduced to the lowest condition, as the Boii and Scordisci among the Galatæ; the Autariatæ, Ardiæi, and Dardanii, among the Illyrians; and the Triballi among the Thracians. They first declined in consequence of disputes amongst themselves, but were finally prostrated by wars with the Macedonians and Romans.
    .....
    . The whole mountainous tract from the recess of the Adriatic bay to the Rhizonic gulf,17 and to the territory of the Ardiæi, intervening between the sea and Pannonia, forms the coast of Illyria.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...r=5&highlight=

    area of Illyria for Strabo stretches to Alps and Danube..its sea cosat is from Rhizonic bay (bay of Kotor in northwest Montenegro) to recess of Adriatic sea - this is area of ex-Yugoslavia.... and has nothing to do with Albania...

    now he claims that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians, it was also depopulated by wars with Macedonians and Romans... and that in those wars people like Boii, Scordisci, Triballi, Dardani has disappeared or almost disappeared..... but Pannoni are there, and living in most of Illyria (or according to his description roughly ex-Yugoslavia)...


    LOOK THE GENETIC SIMILARITY OF FYROM AND SERBIA AND BOSNIA
    THE FYROM IS MORE SERBIAN THAN SERBIA
    WHY? BECAUSE IN TESTS IS A BIG ALBANIAN E-V13 WHICH IS FROM ALBANIAN MINORITY
    Albanians are 30% of population and have 45% E-V13
    so if you make the mathematical references then you see that Fyrom is Near 40% I2a
    do you read my posts?
    there is no need for calculations as there was YDNA research that did separate ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Albanians....

    http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

    sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
    _______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
    E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
    E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
    E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
    G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
    H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
    1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
    I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
    I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
    I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
    J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
    J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
    J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
    J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
    L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
    N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
    P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
    R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
    R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
    R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
    T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343


    ethnic Macedonians are distinguished by I2a2 group same one that is dominant in Serbia, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia and even Slovenia, while Albanians are distinguished by haplogroups E, J2b2 and I1... R1a and G having similar spread in Albanians and Macedonians is indication that it is an earlier spread...which is in correspondence with extra high R1a in Greek Macedonia... in other words Ancient Macedonians were probably dominantly R1a and G people...

    R1b is significantly higher in Albanians, but is present in all groups meaning that probably Dardanians already had some R1b (as other Thracians did) and that Roman's invaders brought more of it (as Vlach's tend to show more R1b in south Balkan)

    same as Serbia and almost Bosnia
    same basic ingredient - I2a2
    which as I indicated on many places does correlate with location and directions of spread of early Slavs
    (e.g. look at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...7&postcount=78 )

    early Slavs are according to Jordanes origin from populous race of Veneti that is now scattered among many tribes chief of them being Sclaveni and Antes...


    in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

    Now about Culture and Language are more connected with the medieval Western Bulgarian Culture and Language
    The Truth is that many times I was wondering if I2a has to do with ancient Thracians
    But Many times I come back from Thoukidides when says that Athens spoke Tyrrshenian before Greek
    the fact is that Thracians ruled upon many cultures or learn Language from J2
    (Greco-Aryan approach not Kurgan-Hypothesis)
    Tyhrsenian /Taurisci/Thracian/Etruscan/Theresh(sea peoples)... can those be about tribal names and peoples of same origin? also Theresh sea peoples are close relatives to Sherdana sea peoples whose name is known to be origin of name of Serbonian bog/Sirbonis/Serbonis lake in Egypt...

    now, look at Taurus on map of world known to Hebrews...



    Etruscans have moved from Lydia (or its close neighburhood) to Italy...

    The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
    Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

    this event we can even date as we know that in 1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

    btw. same division of nation in two parts with one part moving to live far away, we have in much more recent times, story of settlement of Serbs on Balkan, as recorded in work of Byzantine emperor...

    Etruscans also called themselves Raseni

    In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization

    perhaps pure coincidence but later Serbs were called Rasani and their medieval state was Raska... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs


    Crete spain italy the bull is Toro or tavro or tauro
    Athens is BOLOS Thessaly Makedonia is BOLinthros
    Bulgarian Fyrom is BOL
    Serbian Croatian HUngarian is BIK
    but the calf is
    Crete ThessalianEast Makedonian Vodali VIDALI (itali Vitalli)
    Aromanian-armani, albanian is Damali Demi
    Athens Central-West Makedonia Moschos Mouskar
    Bulgarian Fyrom Serbia Ucraine Telec
    this can be related to tribal name of Taurisci...

    by checking vocabulary of modern european people amongst the words for bull we find:
    portugese - boi (as in Boii)
    danish - tyr (as in Tyrshenians)
    finish - roska (as in russians)



    this bull identification may have to do with people from that stock e.g. Sherdana carrying horns on their helmets.... same custom may be origin of name for calling some people "ant people" or Eneti/Veneti...

    in that sense word "bik" may be related to Viking
    which indeed shows that language spoken by south Slavs origins from more northern areas, that is from areas of Viking influence (I don't say they were Vikings, but that horns issue may be origin of word "bik")...

    and watch that
    Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIKES

    SiRoPaiaKes ->> SRPKS ->> Srpski (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people)
    the huns were named Balkar
    yes, this correlates with some ideas that I had about origin of Serb tribal name...

    Sebar - was in medieval period in Serbia word used for caste of agricultural people...
    Srp/serp - is slavic word meaning "sickle"...sickle was primary tool and symbol of agricultural people..... even 4 'S' on Serbian coat of arms are often called "sickles".....

    btw. medieval Russian primary chronic indicates that early Slavs lived in areas besides Danube where now Hungarian and Bulgarian lands lie...which again coincides with I2a2 spreading along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia...

    After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
    the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
    made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs.
    Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
    and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
    Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    and again spread along Danube is location that fits Seneca's mention of Serians in Europe... as they are the ones who dare to cross over frozen Danube.... and also the ones who ruled over scattered Scythians (Dacians in some translations)...

    [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
    Seneca - Thyestes
    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

    Serians are likely proto-Serbs as Serians in Caspian highlands who live unguarded from Sarmatians do match position of Serboi tribe and I2a2 is elevated in spread from that area to Kuban area of northeast coast from Black sea where Siraces (thought to be same as Serboi) lived...

    In fact, I do wonder about word Seres in Greek history records.... as Serians of north west China who produce silk are also called Seres... Seres live in arc from India to China... and this is where we find Pasthun Sarbans today and some haplogroup I that separates them from surrounding tribes that do not have haplogroup I.... Serians of Red sea are about Sabeans/Sheba known for their legendary queen of Sheba who was also called Makeda in south part of her country... hence name Macedonians for some Serian/proto-Serb related people living south from core od Serians...

    in ancient Greece there is story of Seres living very long.......
    Pliny (23 AD – August 25, 79) quotes Aristotle that there are also Seres who live above mount Athos ( in Greece) who live up to 140 years...


    Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

    Seres dwell upon mount Athos....


    do you understand that all these names are Greek
    Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
    early Slavs were oak worshipers...
    Druid is not Greek word...druid is word that has PIE origin and literally means persons able to "see in tree"
    in slavic, corresponding words are: drvo (tree) + vid (vision)
    this is related to old Slavic religion where

    A fairly typical cosmological concept among speakers of Indo-European languages, that of the World Tree, is also present in Slavic mythology. It is either an oak tree, or some sort of pine tree. The mythological symbol of the World Tree was a very strong one, and survived throughout the Slavic folklore for many centuries after Christianisation. Three levels of the universe were located on the tree. Its crown represented the sky, the realm of heavenly deities and celestial bodies, whilst the trunk was the realm of mortals. They were sometimes combined together in opposition to the roots of the tree, which represented the underworld, the realm of the dead.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology

    According to the Book of Veles, Slavic religion recognizes three realms: Yav, Prav, and Nav, Yav being the material world, Nav the immaterial, and Prav being the laws that govern them. The emphasis on the three realms is particularly characteristic for the Slavic neopaganists that draw on the Book of Veles.
    Main symbol of ancient Slavic cosmogonic ideas was the World Tree. Slavs imagined that all three realms are vertically situated on an gigantic oak tree, that holds the whole Universe. In its crown was Slavic Heaven/paradise, so called Svarga, residence of Svarog, or Iriy. At the oak's trunk was the world of living creatures, the reality - Yav. In the oak's roots was Hell, residence of Chernobog, Morena, and Zmey.
    http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Slavic_religion
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 05-02-11 at 23:23. Reason: there was some incorrect translation for word 'bull'

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    and watch that
    Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIAKES (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people) also Serres

    SeRoPaia-Kes ->> SRP-KS or SeRP-eS
    who is goddess Sirris?
    all I could find is
    The Mesopotamian goddess Siris was the patron of beer who is conceived of as a demon, which is not necessarily evil.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siris_(goddess)

    and lot of links related to Isis...

    is Siris same goddess as Isis?
    that would make sense

    this is representation of Isis


    and this is Sherdana sea peoples, the one whose name is known to be origin of name Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt....



    now horns and circle between horns that Sherdana have on helmets can be same symbol as the one that Isis is wearing...

    btw.
    Following the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great the worship of Isis spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world.[13]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis

    Serapis or Sarapis was a Graeco-Egyptian god. He was invented during the 3rd century BC at the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. His cultus was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built a splendid Serapeum in Alexandria.
    ...
    Under Ptolemy Soter, efforts were made to integrate Egyptian religion with that of their Hellenic rulers. Ptolemy's policy was to find a deity that should win the reverence alike of both groups, despite the curses of the Egyptian priests against the gods of the previous foreign rulers (i.e Set who was lauded by the Hyksos). Alexander the Great had attempted to use Amun for this purpose, but he was more prominent in Upper Egypt, and not as popular with those in Lower Egypt, where the Greeks had stronger influence. The Greeks had little respect for animal-headed figures, and so a Greek-style anthromorphic statue was chosen as the idol, and proclaimed as the equivalent of the highly popular Apis.[2] It was named Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis), which became Serapis, and was said to be Osiris in full, rather than just his Ka (life force).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis

    Osiris was the mythological father of the god Horus, whose conception is described in the Myth of Osiris and Isis, a central myth in ancient Egyptian belief. The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris' resurrection, Horus became thought of as a representation of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

    look at symbols depicted in this representation of Serapis


    this motive of crescent/halfmoon and star is repeated is early coat of arms in Croats, Bulgarians, Illyrians, kingdom of Yugoslavia...




    moon itself is symbol of Isis

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    now, back to link between Serapis and Taurisci/Theresh/Etruscan/Thracians....

    Serapis is invented god... he is merge of Osiris and Apis
    Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis)

    God Apis is about bull worship, which is link to Taurisci...
    In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), was a bull-deity worshipped in the Memphis region.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(Egyptian_mythology)

    From the earliest times, the bull was lunar in Mesopotamia (its horns representing the crescent moon).[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

    The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

    The Bull was a central theme in the Minoan civilization, with bull heads and bull horns used as symbols in the Knossos palace. Minoan frescos and ceramics depict the bull-leaping ritual in which participants of both sexes vaulted over bulls by grasping their horns. See also "Minotaur and The Bull of Crete" (below) for a later incarnation to the Minoan Bull.
    ...
    For the Greeks, the bull was strongly linked to the Bull of Crete: Theseus of Athens had to capture the ancient sacred bull of Marathon (the "Marathonian bull") before he faced the Bull-man, the Minotaur (Greek for "Bull of Minos"), whom the Greeks imagined as a man with the head of a bull at the center of the labyrinth.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

    Rethymnon on Crete has 22.7% of haplogroup I which is well above Greece standards (comparable to Agrinion and Lemna and bellow only of the level in Serrai / Serres (36%))

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05...aplogroup.html
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 06-02-11 at 00:14. Reason: added data about haplogroup I on Crete

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    now, I find very peculiar high haplogroup I in Agrinion (23.8%)

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05...aplogroup.html

    so I wondered who are these people

    According to mythology, it was built by king Agrios, son of Portheus[2] and a great grandson of Aetolos. It was destroyed by Cassander in 314 BC.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrinion

    according to years, Cassander is Alexander the Great?
    anyway, origin is from Aetolus

    Aetolus (Greek: Αἰτωλός) was, in Greek mythology, a son of Endymion, grandson of Deucalion, and the nymph Neïs, or Iphianassa.[1][2] According to Pausanias, his mother was called Asterodia, Chromia, or Hyperippe.[3] He was married to Pronoe, by whom he had two sons, Pleuron and Calydon. His brothers were Paeon, Epeius, and others.[4][5][6] His father compelled him and his two brothers Paeon and Epeius to decide by a contest at Olympia as to which of them was to succeed him in his kingdom of Elis. Epeius gained the victory, and occupied the throne after his father, and on his demise he was succeeded by Aetolus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolus_(son_of_Endymion)

    Paeon (Ancient Greek: Παίων, gen.: Παίονος) in Greek mythology was a son of Endymion, king of Elis, and brother of Epeius, Aetolus, and Eurycyda; from whom the district of Paeonia, on the Axius river in Macedonia, was believed to have derived its name.[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeon_(son_of_Endymion)

    so, these people are related to Paeonians (and perhaps also to Pannonians?)


    In Greek mythology, Selene (Greek Σελήνη [selɛ́ːnɛː] 'moon'; Doric Σελάνα; Aeolic Σελάννα) was an archaic lunar deity and the daughter of the Titans Hyperion and Theia.[1] In Roman mythology, the moon goddess is called Luna, Latin for "moon".
    ...
    Apollonius of Rhodes (4.57ff) refers to Selene, "daughter of Titan", who "madly" loved a mortal, the handsome hunter or shepherd—or, in the version Pausanias knew, a king— of Elis, named Endymion, from Asia Minor. In other Greek references to the myth, he was so handsome that Selene asked Zeus to grant him eternal sleep so that he would stay forever young and thus would never leave her: her asking permission of Zeus reveals itself as an Olympian transformation of an older myth: Cicero (Tusculanae Disputationes) recognized that the moon goddess had acted autonomously. Alternatively, Endymion made the decision to live forever in sleep. Every night, Selene slipped down behind Mount Latmus near Miletus to visit him.[6]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selene

    hm, moon goddess pops up again....

    but I am not convinced that Agrinion haplogroup I is related to Aetolos...

    The peoples known as the Curetes and the Leleges originally inhabited the country, but at an early period Greeks from Elis, led by the mythical eponym Aetolus, set up colonies. Dionysius of Halicarnassus mentions that Curetes was the old name of the Aetolians and Leleges the old name of the Locrians.[1] The Aetolians took part in the Trojan War, under their king Thoas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolia

    Homer, in the Iliad, mentions the Curetes (Ancient Greek: Κουρῆτες) as a legendary people who took part in the quarrel over the Calydonian Boar.[1] Strabo mentioned that the Curetes were assigned multiple identities and places of origin (i.e. either Acarnanians, Aetolians, from Crete, or from Euboea). However, he clarified the identity of the Curetes and regarded them solely as Aetolians.[2] Dionysius of Halicarnassus mentioned the Curetes as the old name of the Aetolians.[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curetes_(tribe)

    The Korybantes (Ancient Greek: Κορύβαντες) were the crested dancers who worshipped the Phrygian goddess Cybele with drumming and dancing. They are also called the Kurbantes in Phrygia, and Corybants in an older English transcription. The Kuretes were the nine dancers who venerate Rhea, the Cretan counterpart of Cybele, Mother of the Gods. A fragment from Strabo, book vii,[1] gives a sense of the roughly analogous character of these male confraternities, and the confusion rampant among those not initiated:
    Many assert that the gods worshipped in Samothrace as well as the Kurbantes and the Korybantes and in like manner the Kouretes and the Idaean Daktyls are the same as the Kabeiroi, but as to the Kabeiroi they are unable to tell who they are"
    ...
    Kouretes also presided over the infancy of Dionysus, another god who was born as a babe, and of Zagreus, a Cretan child of Zeus, or child-doublet of Zeus. The wild ecstasy of their cult can be compared to the female Maenads who followed Dionysus.
    ...
    There were several "tribes" of Korybantes, including the Cabeiri, the Korybantes Euboioi, the Korybantes Samothrakioi. Hoplodamos and his Gigantes were counted among Korybantes, and Titan Anytos was considered a Kourete.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuretes

    Kuretes might be proto-Croat related...

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    slowly

    Garrick you are wright Druid is a IE word so it can be international

    but Driopas = Dru + ope Δρυ+οπη οπη = hole

    about I2a

    As I said before many times I believed that I2a was the Thrasian,
    but many times i come back

    The I2a in balkans has to do mainly with Central, North, Thracian tribes

    I don't know if the percentage in south balkans was dominant or gathered

    But i m sure that is fully connected to Northern Thracian tribes
    which later became the south-slavic and the Romanians
    By what I know ancient Thracians expand until and far of Moldova
    they are known also as The sweat water culture cause they lived near Rivers,


    yes Garrick West of Makedonia are the Epirotans and the Illyrians
    North-west the Illyro-Thracians
    North and North East (west from Bardar until east of Strymon Mt Haimos) are the Paioni
    now about the Paioni if were carriers if I2a I still don't know if it was local or a sum
    cause by what I know Serbians came very south at about 700-1000 AD
    meaning that I2a was either almost 30% from the paioni from ancient times.
    or less and was ingreased by Serbians at about Date

    the Greeks at Ottoman occupation
    said that North of Monaster (Bitola) was foreign land of Arnaut (Muslim Albanians)
    the Bardar river around Skopje and north was the Serbia also in areas of Florina (Lerin)
    were serbo-slavic
    and the lands around Mt Borras (Kayimak Tsalan) south of bardar river until Strymon were the Bugari people
    Bugari cause they were not clear Bulgarians as in Veliko Ternovo,

    also exists the Armani people who are a culture of Roman occupation.
    The Armani where pushed by Italians in WW2 to make kingdoms like the Koutsouk Vallach,
    a % of Armani denies the Romanian-Wallachian approach
    and accepts the Villach Vlach approach
    according to that they were Roman citizens following Roman officer and Squires.
    like when King Otto came to Greece brought 150 Families from Germany
    When a Big Roman came to Balkan to take control of the land was given by senator
    Brought many workers and soldiers and Villagers (Villaches)
    In Byzantine they were also accepted cause Byzantine was East Roman Empire

    How Yes No
    at the times I speak
    No Paioni are not Pannoni, probably
    1. one of them was cut in Pre-ancient times,
    2. or just a IE synnonym paeoni-paeople means people nation, probably Pannoni means the same or 'pastur' people (Greek god Pan) people who know to pastur food

    Among them lived the Tribaldi tribe

    when refer to Illyria must know what Illyria you describe

    Illyria according Greeks history reaches Monte-Negro were Carnius Apollo lived
    Above that is Adra Sea (Adrias ->Adriatic) and south is Ambra sea (Ambra sea = smooth sea, Adra sea = rough sea) and known lands north are Carnia
    Illyricum is a Roman province that incudes also Dalmatia and Dinaric Alpes
    now about
    Illyrian tribes according Greeks lived South of Montenegro until Bardar river almost,
    Illyrian tribes to Romans were also Thracian tribes, or semi-known J2 tribes or I2a tribes

    to understand the approach you must also know the Greco-Aryan approach of IE language

    for Example
    Sparta dorian J2 God Carnios Apollo, Greek city Corinth, minor Asia Carian
    Dinaric cities Carinthia Carni

    the worship of Iapetus
    Arcadians in Peloponese worship Iapetos -> Iapotos and the people Iapodes
    meaning that in that area (unkown when for me), lived Iapetus worshipers of J2b
    (proto-Tyrrshennian)
    the above does not Mean that Iapodes were Greeks but they had some connection before times,
    the genealogy of Illyrius gives 1 son Pannon
    But arcadians also had a god Pan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_%28god%29

    I 'm not sure but at the times i speak after 700 BC among pannoni and Paeoni were many tribes especially Tribaldi, so for me the connection at that times is only in Genetical Y-dna if Pannoni are I2a and not Cultural or Ethnical,
    as I mentined before the I2a in some areas I dont know if it is Dominal or a sum of transfered populations

    about your ethnic Macedonians? who do you mean?


    about Tyrrshenian Thracian Tyrrhenian Troyennian
    Look at Hebrew although Tharseis is son of Japheth Iayan people lived among Tharseis,
    meaning that Thracians were before the king Thracian

    the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis
    some people connected with the Black sea disaster (cataclysm) when opened propontis,
    After that Greeks Armenians and Persian speak same language
    the Armenian stayed there and moved north and south
    The Greeks (J2b) lived in west side and south in the Levant
    the Greeks that moved went from land became Thracians
    the Greeks that moved from sea became Cretans
    Besides Homers Γραισοι Γ is 3rd as C so Craisoi -> ai=a+e Craesoi ss == tt Craetoi = Cretans
    Γραισοι ->Craesoi -> Creek - Greek
    that is why today in Greece is another part the Greece (region) and the nation and country is Hellas
    by the above I don't claim That Thracians were Greeks but an analysis of Greco-Aryan

    the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis is that I and J lived same area and later split
    the I went north of Black sea and went west (Persian-speaking) ss=z r= w
    also Persians went East to India
    and Greeks (Tyrrshenian) went west from sea (Cyclades -Minoan) and land (Thracians troy etc)
    the R people is connected with a Lapi myth according to which once the white people were one and ice age cut them to 2

    the west branch Greeks (Thracians) appears before 4000 in cyclades having ships
    worshiping Iapetus and connects with Egypt and Phoenicians (Phoenicians and Tyrrshenians were once 1)

    Troy was a city that speak Tyrrshenian and alliance of Haimos Thracians
    while Greco-Thracians need the roads to North Thracians and caucasus,
    that is why for many scientists the Troyan war is almost a family war

    that is also why Sappeans Thracians had Phoenician system and alliances
    (lemnean staele)


    Godess SirriS is a Ancient Godess of Agriculture
    Sirris was worshiped by Proto-Greeks and South Thracians (earlsy symbol was the millet) later the wheat
    Later the Greeks named her Demeter (Di+mater =Divine Mother)
    Demeter as Isis had a daughter not son as Isis,
    Pershephone, six months underworld six months upper world (wheat germinate, and goat Breeding, high mountains to pens)
    also Pershephone has to do with Thracian religion (Orpheus, Cavirian Mysteries)
    also with Greek Eleysinian Mysteries
    Christianity Despoina (name of Myriam) is the Arcadian name
    also Dionysos - Christ etc
    so Sirris is the ancient name (Perso-Thracian) of Godess Demeter
    There are many books that proves that Christianity and Mithras mysteries
    and Dionysus worship have common origin

    about the Moon and the star is the Megarean symbol religion
    also Eleysina mysteries
    also Byzantine city symbol




    now about the bull

    I mentioned that cause
    Bolos
    Bol
    Bo
    Bolinthros
    same BOL

    but muschar and telec
    meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
    the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
    and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos

    Although the possibility of Telec is similar to sacrifice makes the word inner Fixed (by the speakers)
    example bull fight in spain
    tayrokathapsia in crete etc
    A ceremony that follows the killing of the bull
    in Greek is teleti and the meat telesforo
    a simmilar thracian-phrygian word probably name the meat of the bull teles
    you can realize that by reading Paul to Corinthians about sacrificed meat
    inner fixed is if telec comes from another word of the lingua
    and is different from same speaking people
    imported is if the word is from another lingua
    Last edited by iapetoc; 06-02-11 at 05:43.

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    Dienekes said... >> The weak correlation between I and R1a throws a bit of a wrench in to the Greek-Slavic hypothesis.

    I and R1a could have entered in Greece in medieval times, because they occur more frequently to the north of it, but they could also have been present in ancient times. Until their internal structure is better resolved we are really not in a position to say much.


    Now Understanding that The kurgan Hypothsis proves to be a myth,
    The R1a did not brought IE language to Greece
    Although the last possibiliy according Kurgan Hypothesis is that Greeks took Language from Hettits

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    slowly
    As I said before many times I believed that I2a was the Thrasian,
    but many times i come back

    The I2a in balkans has to do mainly with Central, North, Thracian tribes

    I don't know if the percentage in south balkans was dominant or gathered

    But i m sure that is fully connected to Northern Thracian tribes
    which later became the south-slavic and the Romanians
    By what I know ancient Thracians expand until and far of Moldova
    they are known also as The sweat water culture cause they lived near Rivers,
    According to Russian primary chronicle that I have quoted in previous post, Slavs did live along Danube in Bulgaria and Hungary (Romania is not mentioned) and also were Noricans...
    Noricans would be Veneti related people, probably later known as Vindelici and maybe some other tribes...
    are there any clues for possible kinship between Thracians and Pannoni?

    yes Garrick West of Makedonia are the Epirotans and the Illyrians
    North-west the Illyro-Thracians
    North and North East (west from Bardar until east of Strymon Mt Haimos) are the Paioni
    now about the Paioni if were carriers if I2a I still don't know if it was local or a sum
    much of I2a2 did come with Slavs
    but it could have been there as well...
    thing that R1a is equally spread in Albanians from Macedonia, Slavic Macedonians and Serbs, and much less in Montenegro...is clear indicator that no R1a came with Slavs.... higher R1a in Greek Macedonia than in neighbouring Slavic lands is indicator that R1a is due to ancient Macedonioans
    besides hotspot of R1a in south Balkan has clear shape of ancient Macedonia



    cause by what I know Serbians came very south at about 700-1000 AD
    meaning that I2a was either almost 30% from the paioni from ancient times.
    or less and was ingreased by Serbians at about Date
    I think that all early Slavs were dominantly I2a2 and there were Slav tribes settling in Macedonia and Greece prior to expansion ofSerbs...



    a % of Armani denies the Romanian-Wallachian approach
    and accepts the Villach Vlach approach
    according to that they were Roman citizens following Roman officer and Squires.
    like when King Otto came to Greece brought 150 Families from Germany
    When a Big Roman came to Balkan to take control of the land was given by senator
    Brought many workers and soldiers and Villagers (Villaches)
    In Byzantine they were also accepted cause Byzantine was East Roman Empire
    Vlachs on Balkan origin from different people... they are not same people ethnically, just their language is the same.... their origin is from settled Roman people (which are often romanized people from other parts of Roman empire) and local romanized people...Vlachs in Greece and Vlachs in Romania do not have common origin....


    How Yes No
    at the times I speak
    No Paioni are not Pannoni, probably
    1. one of them was cut in Pre-ancient times,
    2. or just a IE synnonym paeoni-paeople means people nation, probably Pannoni means the same or 'pastur' people (Greek god Pan) people who know to pastur food
    it does sound alike...

    Among them lived the Tribaldi tribe
    Tribali are Thracians, right?


    when refer to Illyria must know what Illyria you describe

    Illyria according Greeks history reaches Monte-Negro were Carnius Apollo lived
    Above that is Adra Sea (Adrias ->Adriatic) and south is Ambra sea (Ambra sea = smooth sea, Adra sea = rough sea) and known lands north are Carnia
    Illyricum is a Roman province that incudes also Dalmatia and Dinaric Alpes
    now about
    Illyrian tribes according Greeks lived South of Montenegro until Bardar river almost,
    through...Greek Illyria is Albania
    Roman province of Illyria does not have much to do with Albania or Illyrians...
    somehow Romans made confusion (probably deliberatelly) by calling everything the wrong name... (e.g. their Macedonia was centered north of real one, their Illyria was noth of real one, their Rhaetia included Vindelici...)...perhaps that was special tactics to assimilate people more easily....


    Illyrian tribes to Romans were also Thracian tribes, or semi-known J2 tribes or I2a tribes
    to understand the approach you must also know the Greco-Aryan approach of IE language

    for Example
    Sparta dorian J2 God Carnios Apollo, Greek city Corinth, minor Asia Carian
    Dinaric cities Carinthia Carni
    culture and haplogroup are not necesserily a match... as split in haplogroups happened much much earlier than split of PIE culture...

    t[QUOTE]
    he worship of Iapetus
    Arcadians in Peloponese worship Iapetos -> Iapotos and the people Iapodes
    meaning that in that area (unkown when for me), lived Iapetus worshipers of J2b
    (proto-Tyrrshennian)
    the above does not Mean that Iapodes were Greeks but they had some connection before times,
    you tend to see J2b everywhere, but in exactly the region of Japoodes is in Maciamo's map big hole of J2
    so if there is genetic connection between two, it may mean that Arcadians might not have been J2b but something else...

    the genealogy of Illyrius gives 1 son Pannon
    But arcadians also had a god Pan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_%28god%29
    maybe Arcadians were I2a2? :)


    about your ethnic Macedonians? who do you mean?
    oops, sorry....I was talking of population of FYRM, so I said ethnic Albanians and ethnic Macedonians, I used ethnic to emphasize that the samples being divided by origin... I did not mean to infer that Greek Macedonians are not ethnic Macedonians...

    about Tyrrshenian Thracian Tyrrhenian Troyennian
    Look at Hebrew although Tharseis is son of Japheth Iayan people lived among Tharseis,
    meaning that Thracians were before the king Thracian
    I do not understand this...

    the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis
    some people connected with the Black sea disaster (cataclysm) when opened propontis,
    After that Greeks Armenians and Persian speak same language
    the Armenian stayed there and moved north and south
    I think indoeuropean might have came to existance around Black sea (maybe also in Black sea area before disaster you mention)...most of Iranians and Indians got PIE from R1a invaders (e.g. Scythians...) who settled there in big numbers...

    The Greeks (J2b) lived in west side and south in the Levant
    the Greeks that moved went from land became Thracians
    the Greeks that moved from sea became Cretans
    I do not think Greeks were Thracians...
    that makes no sense as ancient Greek sources never mention such a possibility...
    besides language of Thrachians is known to be satem variant of IE, while Greek is centum.... Greeks and Thracians are completely unrelated... only reason you relate them is that big chunk of what is now north Greece was part of Thracian lands... of course there were Greek colonies on sea coast, but that is not Thrace

    the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis is that I and J lived same area and later split
    the I went north of Black sea and went west (Persian-speaking) ss=z r= w
    also Persians went East to India
    and Greeks (Tyrrshenian) went west from sea (Cyclades -Minoan) and land (Thracians troy etc)
    actually, I think J2 were historical Aryans (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093)
    haplogroup I branched of from IJ in nearby Persia


    the R people is connected with a Lapi myth according to which once the white people were one and ice age cut them to 2
    that makes sense to me...
    but their settlements were centered differently than now... there is bulk of evidence that R1b settled west Europe from Asia (via Caucasus and Asia minor) much after ice age.... R1a might have been trapped in Balkan refuge...
    as according to Klyosov it is much much older in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia than in all other areas of the world together....

    worshiping Iapetus and connects with Egypt and Phoenicians (Phoenicians and Tyrrshenians were once 1)
    Phoenicans and Etruscans are related?
    are you sure? can you check that claim?

    Troy was a city that speak Tyrrshenian and alliance of Haimos Thracians
    while Greco-Thracians need the roads to North Thracians and caucasus,
    that is why for many scientists the Troyan war is almost a family war

    that is also why Sappeans Thracians had Phoenician system and alliances
    (lemnean staele)
    who are exactly Sappeans Thracians?

    Godess SirriS is a Ancient Godess of Agriculture
    Sirris was worshiped by Proto-Greeks and South Thracians (earlsy symbol was the millet) later the wheat

    Later the Greeks named her Demeter (Di+mater =Divine Mother)
    Demeter as Isis had a daughter not son as Isis,

    Pershephone, six months underworld six months upper world (wheat germinate, and goat Breeding, high mountains to pens)

    also Pershephone has to do with Thracian religion (Orpheus, Cavirian Mysteries)
    also with Greek Eleysinian Mysteries
    Christianity Despoina (name of Myriam) is the Arcadian name
    also Dionysos - Christ etc
    so Sirris is the ancient name (Perso-Thracian) of Godess Demeter
    There are many books that proves that Christianity and Mithras mysteries
    and Dionysus worship have common origin

    about the Moon and the star is the Megarean symbol religion
    also Eleysina mysteries
    also Byzantine city symbol
    spread of same religions and symbols tells us about how cultures were related... which may indicate common origin but not necessarily does...


    meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
    the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
    and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos
    yes, but that is clear...
    word "bik" came with Slavic settlement

    what I responded with is attempt to see who were Taurisci (as Taurus = bull) and why.... to me it is logical that people who have horns on their helments are by their neighbours callled bulls or if the horns are more like insect antenas
    than ants... in that sense word "bik" may be related to horn helmets of Vikings...

    I believe that mythology stories very often reflect origin of people...

    So, I find it curious that in Asia minor there was a myth of two bulls (which I translate with Taurisci people) called Seri and Hurri (day and night) who carried weather God....
    we know that both Hurrians and Serians are mentioned as historic nations... and I do map Serians mentioned by Seneca to proto-Serbs and I know that some Croat people think that Hurrians were proto-Croats....
    regarding wheather God... Greek Gods of winds Anemnoi are in latin language Venetoi... which is in fact tribal name of Veneti...
    according to Jordanes early Slavs are part of populous race of Veneti...

    among Anemnoi we have west wind Zephyros, and his son Carpus, which I did map to Serbs and Croats.... Zephyros is born in caves of Thrace...

    btw. regarding possible link between Tracians and proto-Slavs
    I do emphasize populous race.... Jordanes says early Slavs come from populous race of Veneti...
    and somewhat before for ancient Greeks most populous race in area were Thracians...
    extremely populous races do npot disappear without trace...they may change tribal names though...
    Thracians spoke satem variant of IE, so you can't look for their offspring in Greeks, Italians, west Europe... only related languages are Slavic and Baltic languages and maybe even Albanian...but from most populous race, many people must origin...so I opt for Slavs.. and I do relate early Slavs with I2a2, same as I relate Veneti with it....
    besides medieval Russian primary chronicle tells us that Slavs lived in Bulgaria and Hungary and in Noricum... but were pushed north with expand of Vlachs (that is Romans)

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    How Yes No


    your approach to Thracian Language is not clear

    Vrygians speak same as Greeks, Paeoni also Pieri

    if you search for Phrygian language you realize that they were Isotones and almost could be dialects

    Greek (which also exhibits a high amount of isoglosses with Phrygian)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    How Yes No


    your approach to Thracian Language is not clear

    Vrygians speak same as Greeks, Paeoni also Pieri

    if you search for Phrygian language you realize that they were Isotones and almost could be dialects

    Greek (which also exhibits a high amount of isoglosses with Phrygian)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language
    what's the relation between Phrygians and Thracians?
    Phrygians origin from Bryges, not from Thracians...
    Bryges lived in central Albania and west most FYR Macedonia and not in thrace



    I thnk Bryges might have been R1b.... btw.I also think Frisians and name places such as Brugge might be reflections of same tribal name... and I think that they did also settle Paphlagonia that was emptied earlier when Pahplagonia Eneti were forced to move out... Eneti moved first to Thrace .... and a branch of them ended on Adriatic coast... and since Slavs are race of Veneti and do not have much R1b, I think that R1b spread to Paphlagonia with Bryges and perhaps also with later Celtic invasions...





    if language of Bryges was Greek alike, it just means that central Albania and westmost FYR Macedonia did speak Greek at time, which is not difficult to imagine...

    and btw. link that you gave does not say that Phrygian was dialect of Greek, but that Plato did recognize some words... which is probably about PIE words plus some additional shared vocabulary due to living in proximity... text also indicates that it is considered to be closely related to Greek...now when you say considered, that's not a proof, but a theory... my guess is that it was Celtic language that was heavily influenced by Greek due to living in proximity of Greece during very long period...

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    1rst stop seeing every where serbs and croats

    Seri and Huri
    are the Greek Sorokos (serokos) and OUrios
    Sorokos comes from SE Africa (meltem)
    maistros comes from NW dinaric
    Ourios means Behind the direction
    Our'a not O'ura = ταιλ

    so huri and seri are not nations

    about Vrygians and Bithyni were Thracians
    as also
    THOUKIDIDES says that Athenean spoke (Troyan)Tyrrshenian before koine
    as also we know that Minoan Crete spoke Tyrsshenian

    that approach has to do with I and J
    I and J had the IE language and not R1b or R1a
    Tyrrshenian Thyrrenean Thracian Troyan
    Luwan Minoan Greek are the rest of that language

    I gave you similarity of Crete and Latium

    I inform you that Phoenician was the Language of Sappean Thracian,
    Phrygians, and many other Tribes Before New Alphabet
    In Crete we have a system that is even Before Phoenician
    later discoveries in tooth of Hippopotamus shows the most Ancient calendar,
    we know that Crete was after Cyclades which is one the most Ancient in the world 4000 BC
    we know that Phillistines were Cretans and speak similar
    Cretan was a Thracian-Tyrrshenian speaking
    as also Athenes as also north Thessaly

    The lemnean stele proves that phoenician was speaked in some Thracian tribes until 400-500 BC
    in fact Thracian was as today latin speaking people - Italy-spain -France - portoquese
    language from 1 origin to different nations
    besides we know that Thracian of Odrysse were near to Persian

    the Thracians of the balcans were the last tribal system
    even odrysse create a system more complex as a state



    watch
    In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, Greco-Aryan is also known as "Late PIE", or "Late Indo-European" (LIE) suggesting that Greco-Aryan forms a dialect group which corresponds to the latest stage of linguistic unity in the Indo-European homeland in the early part of the 3rd millennium BC. By 2500 BC, Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian had separated, moving westward and eastward from the Pontic Steppe, respectively.[5]


    now watch that
    More accurate archaeology has revealed the broad outlines of a farming and seafaring culture that had immigrated from Asia Minor ca 5000 BCE. Early Cycladic culture evolved in three phases, between ca 3300 - 2000 BCE, when it was increasingly swamped in the rising influence of Minoan Crete. The culture of mainland Greece contemporary with Cycladic culture is termed Helladic.

    meaning that 5-10-15 % or R Ydna could not change the speech of minoan etc
    and if that happened a big % would have stay

    Trojan Linear A scripts
    Linear A is one of two scripts used in ancient Crete
    Vladimir I. Georgiev published his Le déchiffrement des inscriptions crétoises en linéaire A in 1957 stating that Linear A contains Greek linguistic elements.[3] In 1963, he published an article, "Les deux langues des inscriptions crétoises en linéaire A", suggesting that the language of the Hagia Triada tablets was Greek, but that the rest of the Linear A corpus was in Hittite-Luwian

    Of these peoples, according to Staphylus, the Dorians occupy the part toward the east, the Cydonians the western part, the Eteo-Cretans the southern; and to these last belongs the town Prasus, where is the temple of the Dictaean Zeus; whereas the other peoples, since they were more powerful, dwelt in the plains. Now it is reasonable to suppose that the Eteo-Cretans and the Cydonians were autochthonous, and that the others were foreigners ..


    Cydonians Sidonians????????


    the more you know crete the more you feel Tyrrshenian and Luwan
    although that is the Pre or Proto-Greek Branch of Big Family of languages



    Copper pins dating to 4000 BC found in Egypt

    also boats were known before 5000 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    1rst stop seeing every where serbs and croats
    Seri and Huri
    are the Greek Sorokos (serokos) and OUrios
    Sorokos comes from SE Africa (meltem)
    maistros comes from NW dinaric
    Ourios means Behind the direction
    Our'a not O'ura = ταιλ

    so huri and seri are not nations
    no, you didnot understand...
    Seri and Hurri (day and night) are bulls that carry weather god...
    they are not winds...

    look at section about Eastern Anatolia... btw. Taurus area is southeast Anatolia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

    thing is Serb/Croats cluster with Romania, central Ukraine and east/west Hungary...but this cluster than clusters with Asia minor and Albanians (from paper described on http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html)...

    that coupled with knowing that early Slavs are of Veneti origin (written by Jordanes) and that Veneti come from Paphlagonia (written by Herodotous) made me think that I should search for proto-Serbs and proto-Croats in Asia minor...

    already in post before Seri/Hurri mapping to Serbs and Croats, I had indication of proto-Serbs having some undetermined relation with Taurus/Thrace /Teresh/Etruscan..

    the reason Seri and Hurri reminded me on serbs and croats is not just links of proto-Serbs/proto-Croats to Serians/Hurrians tribal names (which is something I have already for months as I see proto-Serbs in Serians mentioned by Seneca, and I know Croats who deeply believe in Hurrians being proto-Croats), but day and night thing... like yin and yang...
    Serbs and Croats are opposites in many ways, but they are one in same time..a bit as they cannot exist without each other...e.g. when I try to look clues for ancient history of Serbs I keep having Croats popping up in pair with proto-Serbs... e.g. white Serbia/white Croatia, matching coats of arms in neighbouring areas of north Ukraine, Sarban and Krevatas in Caucasus, Pasthun Sarban and Croat iranian origin teories tied to area just next to Sarbans...


    Venti (Anemoi in Greece) are wind gods
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

    Venti may be mythological counterpart of tribe of Veneti
    Zephyrus (born in caves of Thrace) on west with his son Carpus, and Eurus on east...

    and you must admit that wind is related to weather...or probably thought in ancient times to be the one who brings and control the weather....
    thus, clear mapping between proto-Serbs/proto-Croats representing carrying weather god with proto-Serbs and proto-Croats being related to Veneti tribes....

    in fact Paphlagonia (where Veneti or nation represented in mythology with wind gods or weather gods lived) is just north of (or above it on maps) Taurus (bull)...this may have a meaning that it was thought that Paphlagonia is the key to the climate of Asia minor due to influence of Taurus mountain... and this is symbolically represented mixed with nations living there Veneti/Hurrians/Serians...
    do not forget that this is about times much before Greek written history... as Veneti were kicked out from Asia minor soon after Troyan wars...

    and keep in mind that Sherdana people did carry helmets with horns (thus looked as bulls do) and that it is known that Serbonian bog/Sirbonis/Serbonis lake in Egypt was named after Sherdana...
    and that among sea peoples are also Teresh which may be just corruption of Taurus... and also origin of name of Etruscans (who btw. had own name Rasena identical to Serbs medieval name Rasani and in fact also to tribal name of Russians...with Thracians being likely the same name)

    well, look at the island of I2a2 still existing in Kurds in area in close proximity of both Paphlagonia and Taurus



    btw. tribal name Kurds... what does it remind you on (knowing that k and s are interchangeable in centum/satem languages)?

    I think that haplogroup I separated from IJ in Persia, but than most of it went north towards Caucasus and Asia minor.... part branched imediatelly to east giving Pasthun Sarbans and Serians of north west China... part continued over Caucasus to Scandinavia and I1 developed from it....and part went to Asia minor and I2 developed from it... it is possible that when soon after Trojan war Veneti went to Thrace, Serrian/Hurrian (proto-Serbs and proto-Croats) went to Caucasus, from there to Ukraine, than to white Serbia (Bohemia and east Germany?) and white Croatia (Slovakia, south Poland, west Ukraine) ...
    worth noting is that soon after Trojan war there was 18 year old hunger that caused half of Lydians to go away (Etruscans meaning that probably Lydia was back than including Taurus)...
    much later I2a2 Lydians collapsed under wave of E-V13 - this would be related to story of shepard Gyges finding dead king of Lydia and stealing his magic ring and becoming king.... which caused I2a2 Cimmerians to furiously attack his state but without success.... Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...Gyges name became name of his people - Gog or Ghegs...

    about Vrygians and Bithyni were Thracians
    as also
    THOUKIDIDES says that Athenean spoke (Troyan)Tyrrshenian before koine
    as also we know that Minoan Crete spoke Tyrsshenian
    Phrygians origin from Bryges...
    Bryges were probably not Thracians...
    it is suspected that they came to Balkan from north from Lusatian culture area of influence......
    they did cross through Thrace on way from central Albania to Asia minor... a part of tribe stayed in Thrace, but that does not make them same in culture and language and haplogroup as other people living in Thrace...
    you cannot make conclusions about Thracians based on Bryges as it is known that they settled there from central Albania, and settled central Albania after comming from north Europe...
    now arrival from north Europe means they were probably not J or E dominant people... I suspect it was R1b as R1b has spread towards central Albania and also exist in Asia Minor in place of their last settlement...

    Minoan Crete perhaps spoke Tyrsshenian cause there is lot of haplogroup I in Crete...


    that approach has to do with I and J
    I and J had the IE language and not R1b or R1a
    Tyrrshenian Thyrrenean Thracian Troyan
    Luwan Minoan Greek are the rest of that language
    at that time they probabbly all had IE language...

    I inform you that Phoenician was the Language of Sappean Thracian,
    that's not the language, that's alphabet....


    we know that Phillistines were Cretans and speak similar
    Cretan was a Thracian-Tyrrshenian speaking
    as also Athenes as also north Thessaly
    I believe that Philistines origin from Pelast sea peoples, and that they are Pelasgues...

    The lemnean stele proves that phoenician was speaked in some Thracian tribes until 400-500 BC
    so, if in 2000 years someone digs out this forum conversation he can conclude that english was native language of Greece in 21st century?
    but if Phoenician was used it also indicates relation with southeast Asia minor population which in fact supports my thesis that Taurus/Taurisci on south east coast (from whom I think Etruscan and Teresh sea peoples origin) are also origin of Thracians....


    in fact Thracian was as today latin speaking people - Italy-spain -France - portoquese
    language from 1 origin to different nations
    besides we know that Thracian of Odrysse were near to Persian
    iranian is satem language as slavic...
    if they were near to persian they spoke satem as is well known anyway...

    as for Crete, minotaur myth makes me suspect that they were related to people who lived in Taurus area...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 07-02-11 at 02:47.

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    Although I see you continue splitting
    I will still try to Unite

    Tesesh was Not a Tribe
    it was a cleric-religion cast
    find out Tiresias and later Augur
    Remember ter-o in greeks means observe.


    now find out caduceus symbol

    find a poem of orpheus for gree (3 old woman-fates)

    orpheus was Pieri thracian
    Orpheus was using Lyre as Musical organ as also today Thracians Cretans Pontic Greeks Laz people and Atheneans


    now about Thracians and Vrygians
    Makedonians found them and mention them around their later capital meaning central Makedonia

    main Vrygian city was
    Edessa edu and Vedu is the water in Vrygian and issa is the wall- the tower
    also Larissa means La =stone ris= nose edge, issa = wall today in modern Greek is acropolis
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa,_Greece

    the Thracians you mention, where the last with Satem cause of the Skudra

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra

    by realizing the Skudra and that Paioni were under Troya occupation and that bithyni also went to minor asia
    as also in Homer Greeks speak similar with Troyans and many Thracians
    but could not understand other Thracian,
    as also later with odrysse thracian at Xenophons time translation needed
    the fact that Before koine Greeks A colonization was mainly in Areas of Luwan speaking
    which were near troyans and allies, and at coastal of Thrace Illyria
    and south of Etruscans Magna Grecia,
    and in B colonization elsewhere, and later they make koine language

    the Iphigeneia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia
    the lelantin wars for ischia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischia


    Watch that

    The endings -bria ("town, city"), -disza, -diza, -dizos ("fortress, walled settlement"), -para, -paron, -pera, -phara ("town, village") are from the Thracian language, as are numerous other lexical elements in this list. Strabo translated -bria as polis, but it might not be accurate[16]. Thracian language -disza, -diza, and -dizos are derived from Proto-Indo-European *dheigh-, "to knead clay", hence to "make bricks", "build walls", "wall", "walls", and so on. These Thracian lexical items show a satemization of PIE *gh-. Cognates include Ancient Greek teichos ("wall, fort, fortified town", as in the town of Didymoteicho) and Avestan daēza ("wall").

    now find Hettit language
    Troy = wIllassa
    greek cities
    Edessa
    Tyrinssa
    Larissa
    Dorissa
    Chalkissa
    Antissa
    SSamos
    SSami
    SSamothrace
    Chandassa (old cretan name for Heracleion)
    Lassate today Lasithe

    linear B ko-no-sso ->knossos (minoan)
    ne-na = float Nassa -Naxa->Naxos (island) Fortification for ships


    Later the Greeks turn -issa to ida or itha
    Lassate ->Lasithe
    Tyrinssa ->Tyrintha
    Dorissa->Dorida

    Para or Phara means light tower a tower that holds fire
    Paros
    Pharia in Dalmatia
    later the par became pur (fire) and the building Purossa
    Purossa ->burssa turkey Gr Prousa
    Vrussa outside Athens in gr Alphabet Bryssa
    here I live area Bruaza
    Pyr+thesis +essa -Pryntessa ->brindesi (italy) (brindis-io)
    kallos+Pyr = Calabria

    the Pyrossa became ->Pyroga ->Pyrgoa-Pyrgos
    Pyrgos is a tower that holds fire and it is fortificated
    instead of Pharos which is not fortified
    Gr Pyrgos BG Burgas city name

    as you realize i don't know where the Venneti came from
    but Linguistic is that thracian and tyrrshenian came by Middle East to balcans
    the land movement where more persian and became north balcans Thracian
    the south came by sea closer to levantine and became Thyrrenian and later Greek (greek is a synonym of Cretan)
    and the Troyan later became Etruscan
    the possibility that Hettit were the west Branch of first language or split by the first language


    about paioni and agrinio
    you manage to connect
    Agriannes with Agrinio
    but Agrios means savage scary and sometimes violent
    also argos and agros is the field
    argos = fiels in plain mainly
    and agros = fields that plow
    Agrinio means farmers cultivators of land
    Agriannes believe also the same

    so my thought about thracians and i2a has a point
    meaning that north satem Thracians I2a carriers were close to persian thracian
    and south and coastal J2 was more Levant phoenician -tyrrshenian
    hmm
    or it seems that Hettit was the 1rst Thracian branch of IE speaking and split
    to perso thracian north
    greco thracian west
    and phoenician south

    the fact is that Greeks are more vowel even north Greece than south Slavic or north Thracians
    vowel in Greek is phoneen ;)
    although much less vowel than others

    example
    Proto-Indo-European *(d)ḱm̥tóm, which became Avestan satəm (hence the name of the group), Persian sad, Sanskrit śatam, Latvian simts, Lithuanian šimtas, Old Church Slavonic sъto. Another example is the Slavic prefix sъ(n)- ("with"), which appears in Latin, a centum language, as co(n)-; conjoin is cognate with Russian soyuz("union").
    Greek sun ΣΥΝ modern as sin older as sun the u very short u as in Uranus
    Last edited by iapetoc; 07-02-11 at 05:40.

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    The Pelasgian Problem

    The Problem of Ancient Minor Languages.

    "...The most significant among Hellenes are Athenians and Lacaedemonians. The first come from Ionic tribe, the second - from Doric tribe. And, Ionians are of Pelasgian origin, and Dorians - of Hellenic." (I, 56.)
    This message belongs to Herodot, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century B.C. Pelasgians are so often met in different Ancient Greek manuscripts that we do not practically doubt they lived in Greece. The most widespread theory in ancient times was that Pelasgians were the Pre-Greek population of Southern Balkans and the Aegean Islands. Greek authors placed their native land in Fessalia, in Northern and Middle Greece, and on the majority of islands in the Aegean Sea.

    According to Greeks, in the 5th and in the 4th century B.C. Pelasgians still lived in some regions of Greece, on several islands, and spoke a language Hellenes could not understand. Later they were assimilated completely, leaving practically no inscriptions, no books, no signs of their language in Greece, just some descriptions Greeks made themselves after them.
    But were they Indo-Europeans?
    It is well known that the first wave of Indo-European migrants who came to settle to Crete, the Aegean Islands and to Continental Greece from Asia Minor were Achaeans, the so-called "first wave of Greek migrants". It is they who created the Minoan on Crete and Mycenaean in Peloponnese civilizations. Then Doric tribes invaded Greece, but could easily understand the language of Achaeans, and nowadays Dorians and Achaeans are considered to have been just the two varieties of Greek population, with dialectal peculiarities in their common language.
    But Pelasgian language was not understood by Achaeans. Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language... Even now the citizens of Creston and Plakia speak another language, different from their neighbours'... But what about Hellenic tribes, to my mind, they always spoke one language." (I, 57-58.) That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and considered Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian.

    Now let us refer to historical details. Pelasgians, having lived in Greece before Hellenes came, used to fight with newcomers, but evidently were crushed and lost their lands. In the epic poems of Homer (8th century B.C.), the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, southeastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnisos (Peloponnesus), and Crete. Herodot three centuries later names just two of their cities. The process of extinction went fast. Naturally, the only place they could survive for some time and avoid assimilation were small islands in the Aegean Sea. And only here we have one (maybe the only) evidence they really had their language.

    Little inscriptions were found on the island named Lemnos which proves Pelasgians lived there in their isolated community in the 7th and 6th century B.C. Hesiod, Homer and other Greek authors give us no doubt Lemnos's signs are of Pelasgian language. But they are not Indo-European. The language is completely unknown, and some researches even believe (following ancient legends) that Lemnos Island's inscriptions are close to Etruscan and Rhaetic language. That is how a theory was supported about the ties of Pelasgians and Etruscans: "If we judge for nowadays Pelasgians, who live north from Tyrsenans..." (I, 58). That is how Herodot shows neighbourhood of Etruscans (Tyrsenans) and Pelasgians. Strabo in the 1st century A.D. follows this theory: "Modern Cere [in Etruria] is said to have been founded by Pelasgians who came from Fessalia." (V, II, 3). Euripid in his "Archelaios" says that Pelasgians were the first people to settle on Lemnos and Imbros Islands, then inhabited Greece, and partly went to Italy led by Tirsenos, the ancestor of Etruscans.

    And though Strabo and Hesiod believe Pelasgians used to be Hellenes, Etruscan language which has nothing in common with Greek proves they were not. But still there are too many contradictory sources of information. Greeks, who were sure that every nation had their Hellenic religion with just different names for gods, always called other peoples' divines Greek names: they called Egyptian Amon "Zeus", they called Celtic goddess Boann "Artemis" and so on, the same for every people. That is why Pelasgian gods, who could have their own names, were called "Zeus", "Apollo", "Hermes" by Greeks.
    Certainly, Pelasgians who lived nearby Greeks, could borrow their gods, myths and beliefs, but that does not prove, for example, that the Temple in Dodona many authors talk about was devoted to Zeus and not to an autochtonic Pelasgian god. Pelasgian might have similar cults, gods for rain, ground, sun and moon. The only description of Pelasgian sculptures, that of Zeus, believed to have been delivered to Larisa from Asia Minor, is described by Pausanius as having three eyes (II, 24) - a feature not common among Greek gods. Pelasgian religion must have been different from Indo-European.

    And nevertheless, no one can be sure. In the 70s this century a Bulgarian linguist Georgiyev published his works where he tried to prove that Pelasgian language was of Indo-European origin. According to him, it was a representative of Paleo-Balkan languages, of their Thraco-Illyrian branch. Georgiyev cites Ancient Greek historians, Hesihios's dictionary and composes the so-called "Pelasgian glossary" - words in Greek borrowed from Pelasgian. Here we are glad to offer the full list of that glossary.

    aleifo - I smear
    asamindos - a bath
    astu - a town
    atembo - I offend
    afnos - wealth
    balios - white
    bretas - a statue
    gaia, ga - a land, a region
    deyo - I irrigate
    dunamai - I can
    eiko - I retreat
    elaion - butter
    derapne - a dwelling
    ide - a forest
    lahe - a pit
    neos - a temple
    pyndax - a bottom of a vase
    pyrgos - a tower

    Based on his analysis of Pelasgian glossary, Georgiyev also gives a table of phonetic changes from Common Indo-European to Pelasgian:

    As we can see, most of the changes remind those for Thracian and Phrygian languages, from Balkan language community. Greeks considered Thracians and Phrygians to be barbarians; the same with Pelasgians. But if Thracian words easily prove the language was Indo-European, all inscriptions are translated and the origin is clear, we cannot say such things about Pelasgian.

    Too many arguable things. Inscriptions from Lemnos similar to Etruscan; legends about Pelasgian relativeness with Tyrsenans; common opinion that Pelasgians lived in Aegean region before Greeks arrived - that all gives us a chance to suppose: Pelasgian was not Indo-European. Its speakers were - together with Iberians in Spain, Aquitans in Southern France, Rhaetians and Ligurians in Alps, Etruscans in Italy - the representatives of the autochtonic, pre-Indo-European population of Southern Europe, the Mediterranean race which spoke a language we cannot define now. It was not Indo-European or Semitic; maybe just Basques can nowadays tell us what it was like.

    But still there are a lot of "maybe". Etruscan is not deciphered yet, Pelasgian written documents were lost in history. A century ago the humanity knew nothing about Hittite or Tocharian languages; new archaeologic, historical and linguistic research can always give us more material about the past of Indo-Europeans. That is why we should not state anything with surety; just analyze, guess and search.

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    so Dejavu
    the Cyclades civilization which is 4000 BCalmost
    in the middle of Aegean is the pelasgic
    which I believe iis also the proto-Thyrrennian and proto-cretan

    now could that language also be the thracian far ancient language?
    i mean in the tribes we know as thracians,????
    and then the thracians turn to Skudra
    thyrrenian by the words you mention above could be centum language
    could the thracian be a centum language
    and change with the Skudra


    dejavu thank you that was very helpfull

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    iapetoc, do you have your results of your haplogroups back?
    I wonder if you guessed right? G2a3?

    I just got mine few days ago. Freaking unexpected result lol.

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    nice discussion. thanks for the contributors.

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    Le Brok

    G2a3b
    want the dys lebrok?
    i Have to go again to university labs




    how yes no my question for you is that

    was Tyrrshenian and Thracian Dialect of the same language or not?

    I believe yes,

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    how yes no my question for you is that
    was Tyrrshenian and Thracian Dialect of the same language or not?
    I believe yes,
    I do not know...
    not enough data to claim linguistic connection...
    but I suspect there is tribal name connection...
    btw. from wikipedia about Tyrrshenian

    "Spard" or "Sard", another name closely connected to the name Tyrrhenian, was the capital city of the land of Lydia, the original home of the Tyrrhenians; it was referred to by the Greeks as "Sardis"). The name preserved by Greek and Egyptian renderings is "Sard," for the Greeks call it "Sardis" and the name appears in the Egyptian inscriptions as "Srdn."[10]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

    for me this 'srdn' in Egyptian inscriptions for Sardis is identical as for Shardana

    The earliest mention of the people called Srdn-w, more usually called Sherden or Shardana, occurs in the Amarna Letters correspondence of Rib-Hadda, of Byblos[2], to Pharaoh Akhenaten, at about 1350 BCE. At this time, they already appear as sea raiders and mercenaries, prepared to offer their services to local employers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardana

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    cuase as I already saw you before similarity of Thracians with Hettites and Greeks,
    although it could be IE there is a posibility to be dialects each of other,

    another evidence is the Phoenician Alphabet that use the Greeks,

    the Troyans that reach Dardania as also the Skodra of Persians (Skudra)
    i don't know I cant specify
    either northern Balkans learn Thyrrenian by Troyans and were satem
    either they became satem by persians
    either both speak dialects but south - Greeks -Thyrrenian became centum cause of sea immigration, and inland by foot immigrations kept the persian satem thracians
    in 70 translation of old testament (the 1rst ever) name that Iauan people settled in Θαρσεις Tharseis, Tarshish but also Theiras Θειρας Tiras was their ungle

    watch very far ancient Greek cities Tyris - tiris tyras-tiras in ukraine also a city in levant Tiros and the island of Thera

    that is why I connect ancient Thracian with Thyrrenian

    Psalm 72:10
    May the kings of(A) Tarshish and of(B) the coastlands
    render him(C) tribute;

    Ezekiel 38:13
    Sheba and(B) Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all(C) its leaders[a]
    Ezekiel 27:12


    "Tarshish did(B) business with you because

    Psalm 48:7

    You destroyed them like ships of Tarshish
    shattered by an east wind.

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    Garrick's quote:
    "But now I want something else to say.

    Read the post 365133 carefully (3 posts above).

    Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:

    "An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

    Slavic Y-DNA in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

    When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

    If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

    Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.

    Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.

    When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.

    It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.

    ...
    Today Slav Macedonians mistakenly try to present themselves to the ancient Macedonians, it is likely to issue a Doric tribe Makednoi that founded Macedonia.

    Ancient Macedonia was not occupied the border of today's FYROM Macedonia.

    Northwest of the then boundaries of the ancient Macedonia lived Illyrians.

    But northeast of then borders of the ancient Macedonia lived Paeones.

    There is a likelihood that the Paeones were one of the I tribes that lived in the Balkans, if it proves today Slav Macedonians are descedents I tribes in the Balkans and beyond, also from I tribes in the Balkans and beyond originate and today the Serbs and Bosnians.

    ...
    And I ask all participants to this forum to everything related to Macedonia write on the topic of the Macedonians, as here is another topic. "


    This is very clearly thought out and written well. I like the idea of exploring options like this. The possibility of "I" peoples being the base group that later had a R1a Slav admixture makes much sense.
    I will read it again later and post more thoughts on it then.

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    HAVE YOU RETURNED TO THE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS?

    DID YOU RUN OUT OF ANCIENT HISTORY SOURCES?

    MOST IMPORTANT IS TO PROVE FYRO MACEDONIANS ARE SLAVS?



    Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

    Macedonia (FYROM)
    I2a2 29,1%
    I1 5,0%
    R1a 15,2%
    R1b 5,1%
    E1b1b1 24,1%
    J2 12,7%
    G2a 5,1%

    Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - of 79 Ethnic Macedonians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe

    62,2% (haplogroups without I1 & I2) vs 34,1% (haplogroups I1 & I2)

    Conclusion: ethnic Macedonians dont have haplogroup I as majority.


    GET THIS IN YOUR BRAIN!

    FACT!

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