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Thread: Macedonians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Bronze age actually. Someone responded to you last page. It was before 1000BC. Genetically it came out North-European like. In all probability a Proto-Thracian.
    Thanks. Seems it points to reject some of the anti Albanian agendas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    BYE BYE BLEVINS13
    Forum members have memmory on what is published,
    most are more than 2 years, before Lazarides papper,
    look how many years you are,
    Only Blinded by ultranationalist hate like you, can not See and ask sources, Which I am forced to wrie at bottom of post.
    With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe
    the lowest Altaic component in all IE, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
    Only one sample of Ydna N found until now, at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
    There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.
    Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
    GENNETICS SPEAK
    if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas
    which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics,
    Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,
    This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen,
    which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
    in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc
    IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component
    The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture,
    with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
    Shows other Theories as primary,
    Especially the Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
    or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands
    The R1a in Greece, and Greek world,
    is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
    and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks
    Period,
    Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
    and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,
    Btw
    did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
    Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
    using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.
    BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS

    Seima Turbino culture


    TheAltai Mountainsin what is now southern Russia and central Mongolia have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9]
    migrations spread the Uralic languagesacross Europe and Asia
    .[11]
    Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] [15]

    BLEVINS
    THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
    ALTAIC
    URALIC LANGUAGES
    Hg N
    I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
    But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
    did not leave me more, patience has limits.
    SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
    Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.






    SO THIS MEMBER,
    BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.
    WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
    NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS
    WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero)

    SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE)

    WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation)



    WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?

    Except a wish for Peace of Mind.
    I am sure Gods are with him,
    Gods protect and take care of such guys.
    you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
    even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
    or even trust Lazarides papper,
    But No, you insisted,
    may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ......
    You were and asking fo it,
    you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way.
    Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
    you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages?
    or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?
    a pathetic pittyfull aproach, by member Blevins13
    guided by hate of ultranationalism

    which with strange methods,
    want us to Believe that Myceneans are steppe Altaic people,
    and Spoke Uralic languages
    while Lazarides papper on Myceneans is clear of S Caucasos and Armenia highlands origin
    with low average 14% (10-20%) of Steppe, and Zero Altaic
    BLEVINS MYCENEANS DID NOT SPOKE URALIC,
    AS YOU LIKE THEM TO BE.
    BYE BYE
    The Academic pappers you ask

    • Marchenko et al. 2017.
    • ^ Anthony 2007, pp. 447.
    • ^ A Dictionary of Archaeology, edited by Ian Shaw, Robert Jameson, page 517
    • ^ Frachetti, Michael David, Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia, pp. 52–3
    • ^ Anthony 2007, pp. 444-7.
    • ^ Anthony 2007, pp. 443-4.
    • ^ Jump up to:a b Anthony 2007.
    • ^ Jump up to:a b Chernykh, E.N. (2008). "Formation of the Eurasian "Steppe Belt" of Stockbreeding cultures". Archaeology, Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia. 35 (3): 36–53. doi:10.1016/j.aeae.2008.11.003.
    • ^ Chernykh 1992, p.220-21, figs. 74, 75.
    • ^ Christian 1998.
    • ^ Jump up to:a b Keys, David (January 2009). "Scholars crack the code of an ancient enigma". BBC History Magazine. 10 (1): 9.
    • ^ Higham, C.; Higham, T.; Kijngam, A. (2011), "Cutting a Gordian Knot: the Bronze Age of Southeast Asia: origins, timing and impact", Antiquity, 85 (328): 583–598, doi:10.1017/S0003598X00067971
    • ^ E. Chernykh The “Steppe Belt” of stockbreeding cultures in Eurasia during the Early Metal Age Trab. Prehist., 65 (2008), pp. 73-93, 10.3989/tp.2008.08004
    • ^ C. Der Sarkissian, O. Balanovsky, G. Brandt, V. Khartanovich, A. Buzhilova, S. Koshel, V. Zaporozhchenko, D. Gronenborn, V. Moiseyev, E. Kolpakov, et al., "Genographic Consortium Ancient DNA reveals prehistoric gene-flow from siberia in the complex human population history of North East Europe" PLoS Genet., 9 (2013), p. e1003296
    • ^ "The American Journal of Human Genetics: Volume 99, Issue 1: Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup N: A Non-trivial Time-Resolved Phylogeography that Cuts across Language Families", 7 July 2016, Pages 163-173
    • ^ http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/a...view/4182/4018
    • ^ Lalueza-Fox, C.; Sampietro, M. L.; Gilbert, M. T. P.; Castri, L.; Facchini, F.; Pettener, D.; Bertranpetit, J. (2004), "Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient central Asians", Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences, 271 (1542): 941–947, doi:10.1098/rspb.2004.2698, PMC 1691686, PMID 15255049
    • ^ Keyser, Christine; Bouakaze, Caroline; Crubézy, Eric; Nikolaev, Valery G.; Montagnon, Daniel; Reis, Tatiana; Ludes, Bertrand (2009), "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people", Human Genetics, 126 (3): 395–410, doi:10.1007/s00439-009-0683-0, PMID 19449030


    bye bye little Goebels
    As far as I know, Seima Turbino might have not been Uralic speakers. There's not a consensus over them.

  3. #903
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    Hellenism and the making of modern Greece: time, language, space

    Antonis Liakos (Athens)

    Learning to be Greeks through the appropriation of historical time, language identity and space symbolism


    I awoke with this marble head in my hands
    which exhausts my elbows and I do not know where to
    set it down.
    It was falling into the dream as I was coming out of the
    dream.
    Our lives joined thus and it will be difficult to part
    them.
    George Seferis, Mythical Story



    3. Revivalism





    Greek historiography is a product of the Greek national state. During the foundation of the new state the constitutive myth was the resurrection of the mythical phoenix. Its significance was that Greece resurrected itself, like the mythical Phoenix, after having been under the subjugation of the Macedonians, the Romans, the Byzantines, and the Turks. The first rector of the University of Athens in 1837, Constantine Schinas, referred to the metaphor of an enslaved Greece handed over by the Macedonians to the Romans and then by the Byzantines to the Turks. That was the first official imagination of Greek history in the aftermath of the war of liberation in 1821. As a consequence, the primary period that was incorporated into the national feeling of history was the period of classical Antiquity. The appropriation of this period was established during the period of the Enlightenment’s influence on Greece, in the fifty years or so before the Greek revolution, and, though not without disagreement or reservation from the post-Byzantine tradition of the Orthodox Church, it proved quite strong so to prevail in the national consciousness of Modern Greeks. Yet, in contrast to most young nations which were expected to construct their own self-image, the myth of Ancient Greece was also powerful outside the Greek-speaking society of the Ottoman Empire. Modern Greeks acquired a passport, without much pain, compare for instance to Balkan neighbours or other new-born nations, to introduce themselves to Europe and the world.

    The story of how the myth of Ancient Greece was incorporated into Modern Greek nationalideology is complex and controversial. The most powerful tradition in Europe, even before the creation of national states, was the tradition of written texts: Greek, Latin and Hebrew. This written tradition was the corpus and the locus where pre-national history were shaped. Before the emergence of nation-states, myths of national origins were connected to this written tradition. Greeks appropriated a great part of this learned tradition and transformed it into a national tradition. This appropriation was not an isolated case. Hellenism, as a cultural topos, was an intellectual product of the Renaissance, which was subsequently renovated through intellectual trends ranging from the Enlightenment to the Romanticism. As concepts, Hellenism and Revival were strictly interconnected. Had the concept of the Renaissance introduced a threefold concept of time (Ancient, Medieval and Modern), revivalism was established as the intellectual model in culture. In this sense, each major change in culture, until romanticism, was presented as a phenomenon of revival. Indeed, nationalism can be defined, in this framework, as the “myth of historical renovation”. The incorporation of Antiquity, as a result, constitutes not simply the beginning of the national narrative but actually the construction of the object of this narrative. For Greeks, to feel as national subjects means to internalize their relationship with Ancient Greece.

    The revival of Antiquity in Modern Greece was not aimed exclusively at the legitimization of genealogy, because Classical Antiquity was also projected as the ideal model for the organization of a modern society. One of the most important works of early modern Greek historiography, George Kozakis Tipaldos’ Philosophical essay on the progress and decline of old Greece (1839), reflects this attitude. The exemplary and nomothetic function of the ancient world does not concern exclusively the construction of the Modern Greek state. It constitutes part of a transcultural tradition. This important functional role of the other (i.e., the Ancient) world, deeply embedded in historical consciousness, relates to notions of authority, power, holiness and truth. In this way the concepts with which we understand the world should originate from another world in the remote past. To this same tradition could be ascribed the uses of the Torah for Israel, and of the Koran and the Sharia for the Muslim nations.


    4. Continuity





    During the first decades of Greek independence, the initial present-past relationship was composed of two alternative poles: the national resurrection (the 1821 Revolution and the formation of the Greek state) and Classical Antiquity. The myth of the reborn Phoenix, however, was too weak to sustain a national ideology, especially since it involved an immense time gap. Moreover, it excluded an important part of present experience, the religious one. The blank pages of Greek history became visible in the middle of the 19th century. In 1852, the historian, Spyridon Zambelios, pointed out, “We only hope that all those scattered and torn pieces of our history will be articulated and acquired completeness and unity”. Filling these gaps meant furnishing criteria and signification in order to appropriate different periods such as the Macedonian domination of Greece, the Hellenistic and Roman period, the Byzantine era, along with the Venetian and Ottoman rule.

    In this view, history is identified with the nation’s mission and as a consequence, it is Divine Providence that attributes a certain meaning to it. The temporal incorporation also refers to the nation's relation with the surrounding world. In other words, it constitutes a national reading of world history. This is a reading of world history from a Eurocentric point of view.. In fact, this perspective lays the foundations of a dialectic between European and Greek national historiography. On the one hand, it aims at the emancipation of national history encapsulated in a European point of view (the contempt for Byzantium as a degeneration of the Roman empire) while on the other, it evaluates national history for its contribution to European history, that is, the history of Western civilization.

    The filling of these gaps was the task of Greek historiography during the second half of nineteenth century. The incorporation into the national narrative of the periods that would contribute to the making of national history took place in stages which endures more than three generations of historians, from Koraes to Paparrigopoulos and then to Lambros, and not without objection and cultural debate. The timing of each temporal incorporation was a function of a relationship between the Greek and western European historiography. For example, the appropriation of the Macedonian and Hellenistic periods, through the concept of national supremacy, was facilitated by the disjuncture of the concept of civic freedom from classical Greece. Within the debate concerning the re-evaluation of the Hellenistic period (in German historiography of the 19th century), it became possible to present Hellenism (with the meaning and the cultural characteristics that were attributed to it at the time) as the predecessor of Christianity and to establish the imperial ideal (especially in the works of Johann Gustav Droysen). However, the contempt for Byzantium of Voltaire, Gibbon and Hegel, in other words the negative attitude that developed towards it within the framework of the Enlightenment, did not allow it to be incorporated at this stage. Moreover, since “Hellenism”, as a cultural construction of western civilization, was conceived by Philhellenes as the revival of the Ancient to the modern Greece, the rejection of Byzantium along with all other historical periods between the classical age and the Greek revolt in 1821 was unavoidable. To span the huge difference between the classical ideal and the reality of Modern Greece, the concept of decline and fall was inevitable. Besides, the concept of revival itself actually entailed the concept of discontinuity because its mental presupposition is a time of disappearance between the first and the second life. The concept of “relics” omnipresent in the early modern and the romantic culture imposes a moment of death, of mourning and melancholy, but also gives the rhythm of the successive renaissances, revival, re-evolutions, reformations and of all the European cultural phenomena characterized with concepts of a new starting.

    But, how was a national narrative possible with such a discontinuity?

    The appropriation of the Byzantine period has major significance, since it illustrates the transition from one mental structure of historical imagination to another: from the schema of revival to one of continuity. It is a transition that primarily concerns the concept of historical time. Once this transition has been accomplished, each historical period would find its place within this schema. The result and also partly the cause of this great mental change was the monumental work of Konstantinos Paparrigopoulos History of the Greek Nation (1860-1874). Paparrigopoulos, honored as "national historian", created the grand narrative and introduced a new style in writing Greek national historiography. Although his predecessors had employed the third person in referring to their object, Paparrigopoulos imposed a very dominant use of “we” and “us” in describing the Greeks of the past, in this way identifying the reader with the national subject. In addition, the appropriation of Byzantine history changed the content of national identity and transformed it from an imported by scholars into a native produced product This modification acquired the features of a “revolt” against a view of the national self that had been imposed on Greece by European classicism. This transformation was a response to a general feeling of 19th c. Greek intellectuals: “The Past? Alas, we allow foreigners to present it according to their own prejudices and their own way of thought and interests.”


    6. National genealogy




    The constitution of the “unity” of Greek history also created its narrative form. The innovation in Paparrigopulos’ work lies in the fact that it reifies Greek history, and organizes it around a main character, giving a different meaning to each period. He introduced the terms First Hellenism, Macedonian Hellenism, Christian Hellenism, Medieval Hellenism, Modern Hellenism. The first Hellenism was ancient Hellenism, i.e. the classical Hellenism that declined after the Peloponnesian Wars. It was succeeded by Macedonian Hellenism, which was actually “a slight transformation of the first Hellenism.” This one was followed by Christian Hellenism, which was later replaced by Medieval Hellenism, which brought Modern Hellenism to life in the 13th century....
    Antonis Liakos-Historian Curriculum Vitae
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


  4. #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    As far as I know, Seima Turbino might have not been Uralic speakers. There's not a consensus over them.
    hm
    might not
    might yes,

    it was a culture of hg N for certain, so Uralic fits better,
    Don't you think.

    Besides

    The resulting radiocarbon (14C) chronology for the western Siberian sites (22nd–20th centuries cal BC)
    Notice the above is the max back, they centuries from Central Asia to reach West Siberia

    Hettites who had simmilar are about 1600 BC

    Same is the high change of Minyan (NOTICE MINYANS, Not MINOANS) control and culture
    to Mycenean control and culture,
    ατ 1650 when Hettites are in minor Asia, Myceneans are already here,

    so you have to face the dilema,
    If Myceneans are from the area, in which Hettites enter, How come they had such similarity, as pre-Hettit culture, Notice Mycenean tombs before 1650 BC, Hatussa 1600 BC. if remember correct.
    then you go to the North way, from Yamnaa, to Balkans to South Greece,
    there is the other entrance to Greece,
    Here you have to find the old Blegen theory, the archiological connection, as described by Giannopoulos.

    Why? Cause Mycenean are also the Long Corridor culture, the δρομος as called today, the Σικος and the Πτερον a structure not found in Asia till then, no matter Megalithic structures are even today magnificent.
    and their Kurgan are estimated to evolve their way, while their primary earlier form
    so Myceneans and kurgans already existed from 2200 BC, in co-existance with Minyans, ?
    I did not remember the Archaiologist who found such in Lerna and Leykada.
    besides the Mycaenean mettalurgy has nothing to do with Seima Turbino, or with Hettites mettalurgy,
    Mycenean is tin vs Copper, Seima is Arsenic vs copper,
    Almost same littlelittle bit earlier few centuries but mainly 1 century earlier is the Vucedol-Vatin devstation to Greece, mainly to area of proto-Greeks
    the tombs of Cetina as possibly is known to you,
    besides we see a strange change to tomb looking like small boxes, non Minoan, since they put them to pottery,
    Anyway, it is difficult to distinguish,
    but generally we see these strange,
    Minyan culture, certainly autochthonus, possible G2 and other, no need to search now
    Minoan culture which is J2a with no steppe
    No Steppe admixture culture until 2300 BC.
    Vucedol vatin culture entrance from North (para-Cetinas) possibly some Hg I
    Mycenean culture which is J2a which is ave 14% simmilar even today after the Slavic invasions,

    Both populations evolute to Greek till 1600 BC
    The Nothern are the proto-Greek or NW dialects or Paleo-Balkan in the area where georgiev puts them
    the other is Mycenean and S Greek, a substractum that creates also the inner aspirations of evolution of Greek language, to classical, while some return back due to Makedonian influence in Koine (φορθακα - Βατραχις, Φρεαρ-Βρυση)

    the only entrance from East in that era, in the Mycenean world
    is the Arzawwa-Asuwa when were hunted by Hettites,
    so how come this steppe 14% enter to Myceneans and not to Minoans,
    The answer is somewhere above,
    or somewhere we can not see until today,

    about R1a in balkans
    Balkans have a pecculiar very high diversity of R1a,
    in other contitions the numerous varities could claim as homeland of r1a Balkans
    but we consider it as a sink phenomenon,
    the r1a -Z93 found in Thracian tomb is at least a millenium younger,
    yet this does not exclude the possibility of being far ancient to pre and proto Thracian or forms that spread from yamnaa
    But most possible for me is to be Scythian from Srubnaya.

    Anyway Seima Turbino was a culture of N Hg.
    although their usage of chariots etc are simmilar to Mycaenean,
    but not identical mettalurgy, tin vs arsenic

    The time Distance from W Siberia Seima Turbino to the high transform of culture to Mycenean surely is about 4 centuries, and is allowing such aproache and possibility
    Yet the other elements of myceane, as also their genetics, and the continuity of Minyans and NW Greeks hmm ... pale colour
    the ave 14% steppe could enter from Arzawa, from Vucedol, even from women slaves and marriage,
    if 1 out 10 male of a generation takes foreign women, it is about 5% to next male generation?, or I am wrong,
    I am not certain for above but seems logicalThat is all,
    suggest you see the minyan minoan mycenean pottery to understand.

    Aditional if you want to search deeper,
    you must search how much Altaic component have the R1a cultures from the main 3 types of R1a in Balkans,
    cause in population that has 0 Altaic, it is impossible to be ancestor of a population of that was heaby in Altaic.
    so if Myceneans are indead connected with R1a-Z93 of Thracian tombs in Bulgaria then this R1a-Z93 should have limited to zero Altaic component,

    Until then the possibilty of Thracian and Mycenean connection via a pre Mycaene, pre Thracian population from somewhere Ukraine and generally N Pontos area is alive, but does not certified,

    I hope i make my shelf understood.

    to conclude
    The gennetics of Mycaeneans Show rather an adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility,
    than a genetical relativity, and continuity.
    and until now, this adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility culture,
    is not certified if that enter from S Caucasos before or same time with Hettites, straight from minor Asia,
    or via N of Pontos areas. (today ukraine, Georgia, Abhazia etc) via the Thrace. (today Bulgaria)

    a good example is Ireland,
    no matter the Western country of Europe, and need 2 times to pass the sea,
    Yet the Steppe and Altaic components percentages are significant, and surely describe and drive us to certain conclusions
    but that does not happens in Helladic space,

    Period

    Conclusion

    So if someone wrote in Forum about Illyria, whatever he wanted, with easy conclusions,
    cause there is a late such post somewhere there
    this does NOT mean is correct, but rather a biased post, possible for inner-consumption,
    We are used to such 'works' of easy conclusion, for easy mass consuption,
    sometimes Doctoras are giving to such works, specially to Golden boys of political parties,.
    What face here by this 'work', -lets name it such- is this: How come a culture of hg N in 4 centuries pass to a culture of J2 far away, with different genetics, meaning ho Inheritage.
    so a possible solution is via R1a -Z93, NOTICE A Possible
    so 'OK', we found Gold' Myceneans were Siberians''
    it is typical and easy pass to ignorants, if you make amazing cover, and nice images, and say words like 'Only in'
    But is rubbish

    the Logic of such works, is the Bellow
    Guitar is a Instrument (music)
    Policeman is an instrument (of law)
    so Policeman is a Guitar.

    Do you understand why I wanted to stop Blevins13, before say his 'opinion' which is a work in Illyria forum, but tottaly crap.
    But he insisted to spread the crap work, the logic of policeman is a Guitar.
    Don't worry, such Forums exist many in Greece, and all over the world,
    Using their 'proves' and Logic, I can prove you that Greeks came from Andromeda 200 000 before,
    and Seima-turbino were reptilians from the warm area of planet Mars,
    I warn many times the Albanians of Forum about a stupid tv-person, who can explain and prove whatever, in Top Channel,
    Not to believe him.

    look at him
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpraT2zpRLQ
    he can persuade you that earth is empty inside, and monsters live there, locked, waiting to come out,
    He almost persuade Greeks before 1 decade that Incas were Greeks,
    it is pathetic, to be easily conviced, and worst is to produce such.
    Last edited by Yetos; 10-05-19 at 08:53.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Im reading this discussion and is very good i like it ,i watched newest Lecture about 'The World of Early Macedon' from Prof.Kenneth W.Harl in few times he highlights that "Macedonians were not Greeks at all" , this Professor is very close collegue to Eugene Borza , historian known like "Macedonian Specialist".You can watch it Lecture here ;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s
    All rest is on you...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I know most of scholar who do not believe makedonian were Greeks,
    But this belong also to above post I wrote,

    There is an evolution of aspiration from Proto-Greek to Attic and etc S Greek languages,
    that is noticed and specified many times, and for many is a distinguish among Greeks and 'non Greeks'
    Some consider Greeks only the Mycenean World, and not the NW dialects,
    the ancient Makedonian Language is written by Hesychios of Alexandreia,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria

    generally there is a difference among proto-Makedonians and Makedonian Kingdom Makedonians
    the primary Makedonians are the Lokroi, of Upper Makedonia
    and the Argeiades (the Dynasty) of central Makedonia,

    Secondary group is The Brygians
    the term Edessa is from Brygian origin.
    Herodotus places them to Thracians,
    modern Linguists consider them as Paleo-Balkans, Centum with Satem cover due to Thracians,
    The Brygian homeland is in today Albania,
    When the Illyrians came they were Pushed to Makedonia and Paionia (today Slavic Makedonia)
    They finally left for minor Asia, while their remnants are the Mygdones,
    they fully assimilated to makedonian kingdom,
    There is strange connection among Brygians and Makedonians, a hiden relativity, a mystery,
    Notice when Alexander was in Gordion Phrygia, did not sleep, cause he expected and hoped to that connection,
    so Phrygians support him against Persia,

    a Third nation is Bottiaioi,
    Strabo names them as Cretans in origin,

    Now I will refer to Aristoteles,
    Aristoteles maention the Dodona, the most Sacred place of NW Greek dialect speakers
    the other is central Greece the river Hellanas, the games
    the games of Hellanas were moved to Olympia to make the Olympic games.
    well Aristoteles Uses 2 words for the people and priests of Dodona Epiros,
    ΓΡΑΙΚΟΙ, ΣΕΛΛΟΙ, Graikoi, Selloi
    meaning Greek and Hellanes, (Sol <-> Hellios)

    Yet Phillip of Makedon, moves to Samothraca in Thrace, to the ancient Kabeires to get married, a priestress
    So the Makedonian Kingdom is mainly a unification among the Makedonians and the Brygians,
    which later, sometimes violent, assimilated the Cretans Bottiaioi.

    So
    Primary thoughts of those who did not accept ancient Makedonians as Greek nation is because they were not Myceneans, and outside Mycenean world,
    Makedonian Necropolis have their own style Tumuli, sometimes very affected by Mycenean arxhitecture and style.
    Yet Makedonians never claimed Mycenean ancestry as far as I know, but from Heracles, they were Herakleidae,
    and because lately I heard about Hercules = Mycaene,
    yet in Sparta we see that Hercules was introduce by Dorians, (and was not an Atreides, meaning Hercules although born in Argos might not be connected with Mycenean,)
    (Argos gives 2 Heroes, Heracles, and Perseus )
    who are Hellanes so Selloi,
    herodotus names clearly Dorians Ελληνικον and nothing to do with Pelasgians,
    Makedonians also claim Heracles and Dorians as ancestry.
    that is why Argeiads (Makedonians) did not burn Sparta,but punish them with eternal shame (Αλεξανδρος και Ελληνες πλην Λακεδαιμονιοις / Notice uses the Mycenean name, not the Dorian one Sparta)

    Secondary is their language,
    Makedonian dialect or Language belongs to NW Greek ones, the primitive ones comparing the Classical Greek
    so Θαλασσα them is Δαλαγχαν Thalassa-Dalagha D-Θ Dios Theos
    also Berenika Ferenike
    Kefale Keb(a)le B<-> F (ph)
    HERE Must Notice that PIE had B and D and especially Θ maybe did exist in PIE, so NW Greek Dialects -among them Makedonian- are primitive Closer to PIE comparing Classical Greek
    and Greek and Brygian were Isotones languages


    I wil stop here,
    it is like Scands or English with Deutsch, or Dutch with Austrian,
    they are Germanic, with their own way each.
    imagine a modern English with a proto-Germanic speaker.
    or a Latino-Iberian with a Roman

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RagnarofMacedon View Post
    Im reading this discussion and is very good i like it ,i watched newest Lecture about 'The World of Early Macedon' from Prof.Kenneth W.Harl in few times he highlights that "Macedonians were not Greeks at all" , this Professor is very close collegue to Eugene Borza , historian known like "Macedonian Specialist".You can watch it Lecture here ;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s
    All rest is on you...
    The consensus is that they were Greeks or para-Greeks. Mycenaeans too were technically para-Greeks, and classical Greeks would have had significant difficulties understanding them. With Macedonians the evidence suggests that Attic Greeks could in fact understand bits and pieces of vernacular Macedonian (see Curtius Rufus). It all comes down to your definition of 'Greek' I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The consensus is that they were Greeks or para-Greeks. Mycenaeans too were technically para-Greeks, and classical Greeks would have had significant difficulties understanding them. With Macedonians the evidence suggests that Attic Greeks could in fact understand bits and pieces of vernacular Macedonian (see Curtius Rufus). It all comes down to your definition of 'Greek' I guess.
    No he clearly said that Macedonians were not Greeks at all , but many of them ( Barbarians ) accepted Hellenism or so called Greek culture and language , nor in that time Greeks considered Macedonians like Greeks , or we watched different Lecture ?
    Also said that NON-Greeks were not allowed to marry GREEK womans unless they accept Greek culture and Language ( In that time Hellenism was big thing ), so Phillip II Macedon accepted Greek culture and language to marry Olympia (Epirus Greek) , so Alexander III of Macedon was half greek half Macedonian.
    Also he said when Macedonian warriors talking with Alexander they using their own language ( Macedonian ) , because Greeks can not understand them...
    Are you wondering why 50,000 Greeks fight for Persian side Against Alexander and Macedonian in war?
    Or what happened on Teba River ?
    Or why in Macedonian phallags of 37,000 warrior only 7.000 were Hellenes ?
    Anyways in that time Hellenism was more likely political thing than ethnic ?
    Hellenes was different type of ethnicities Assyrians,Persian,Egyptians,Jews...
    Anyways he clearly said that Macedonian were not Greeks at all , nor Greeks considered them in that time like Greeks, they were most similar to Thracians...

    And stop with Bullshiet and propaganda thanks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RagnarofMacedon View Post
    No he clearly said that Macedonians were not Greeks at all , but many of them ( Barbarians ) accepted Hellenism or so called Greek culture and language , nor in that time Greeks considered Macedonians like Greeks , or we watched different Lecture ?
    Also said that NON-Greeks were not allowed to marry GREEK womans unless they accept Greek culture and Language ( In that time Hellenism was big thing ), so Phillip II Macedon accepted Greek culture and language to marry Olympia (Epirus Greek) , so Alexander III of Macedon was half greek half Macedonian.
    Also he said when Macedonian warriors talking with Alexander they using their own language ( Macedonian ) , because Greeks can not understand them...
    Are you wondering why 50,000 Greeks fight for Persian side Against Alexander and Macedonian in war?
    Or what happened on Teba River ?
    Or why in Macedonian phallags of 37,000 warrior only 7.000 were Hellenes ?
    Anyways in that time Hellenism was more likely political thing than ethnic ?
    Hellenes was different type of ethnicities Assyrians,Persian,Egyptians,Jews...
    Anyways he clearly said that Macedonian were not Greeks at all , nor Greeks considered them in that time like Greeks, they were most similar to Thracians...

    And stop with Bullshiet and propaganda thanks...
    ok

    As you like,

    It does not matter what he Believes,
    But what The Makedonians Believe,
    So what he says, is just ....

    and since Ancient spoke the language that is written in Hesychios,
    since they believe them shelves as Greeks,
    why I should change them today,

    Why should I trust a modern scholar,
    and not the many Ancient sources?

    Does it matter what Borza believes, 2300 years after?
    When the Makedonians claim other things?
    and we have their language written down !!!
    At least can Borza tell us wht Language the Makedonians spoke?
    I Prefer to believe Strabo book VII chapter 9, who was alive that era,

    and plz Don't mix Makedonians with Makedonian kingdom,
    makedonian Kingdom had assimilated a lot of thracian tribes.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    ok

    As you like,

    It does not matter what he Believes,
    But what The Makedonians Believe,
    So what he says, is just ....

    and since Ancient spoke the language that is written in Hesychios,
    since they believe them shelves as Greeks,
    why I should change them today,

    Why should I trust a modern scholar,
    and not the many Ancient sources?

    Does it matter what Borza believes, 2300 years after?
    When the Makedonians claim other things?
    and we have their language written down !!!
    At least can Borza tell us wht Language the Makedonians spoke?
    I Prefer to believe Strabo book VII chapter 9, who was alive that era,

    and plz Don't mix Makedonians with Makedonian kingdom,
    makedonian Kingdom had assimilated a lot of thracian tribes.
    Yes we should ask Greeks of Anatolia if they believe if they are Macedonian......This certainly makes sense.

    IMG_3245.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by RagnarofMacedon View Post
    No he clearly said that Macedonians were not Greeks at all , but many of them ( Barbarians ) accepted Hellenism or so called Greek culture and language , nor in that time Greeks considered Macedonians like Greeks , or we watched different Lecture ?
    Also said that NON-Greeks were not allowed to marry GREEK womans unless they accept Greek culture and Language ( In that time Hellenism was big thing ), so Phillip II Macedon accepted Greek culture and language to marry Olympia (Epirus Greek) , so Alexander III of Macedon was half greek half Macedonian.
    Also he said when Macedonian warriors talking with Alexander they using their own language ( Macedonian ) , because Greeks can not understand them...
    Are you wondering why 50,000 Greeks fight for Persian side Against Alexander and Macedonian in war?
    Or what happened on Teba River ?
    Or why in Macedonian phallags of 37,000 warrior only 7.000 were Hellenes ?
    Anyways in that time Hellenism was more likely political thing than ethnic ?
    Hellenes was different type of ethnicities Assyrians,Persian,Egyptians,Jews...
    Anyways he clearly said that Macedonian were not Greeks at all , nor Greeks considered them in that time like Greeks, they were most similar to Thracians...

    And stop with Bullshiet and propaganda thanks...
    Welll he's wrong. Curtius actually says ".. understand them better." . That suggests Macedonian wasn't completely foreign to Attic speakers.

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    But to Demosthenes the Macedonian was completely foreign, but of course nothing to do with slavs.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    But to Demosthenes the Macedonian was completely foreign, but of course nothing to do with slavs.
    You're conflating two issues. The question whether Macedonians were Hellenes and the question whether they were Greeks in the scientific sense. The Mycenaeans weren't Hellenes but they were Greek.

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    From what I observed, and I am always right: Only the Albanians ITT wrote sensible posts.

    The others, lashed out with projections of their own insecurities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Yes we should ask Greeks of Anatolia if they believe if they are Macedonian......This certainly makes sense.

    IMG_3245.jpg


    from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

    How typical of you





    Interesting the observation of yours,
    But as always just the serpent spreads poison, Waiting for its ihead to be smashed,
    Again scratching the sheperd's bat.


    For Blevis13 the one who told us that Mycenean spoke Uralic and were hg Ydna N

    How Others call the Makedonians
    The era of Makedonian Kingdom before Alexandros
    All minor Asia and Thrace were under Persian occupation,
    Naqsh e Rostam Royal tombs of Achamenides
    The Satrapies of Dareios


    1. baga \ vazraka \ Auramazdâ \ hya \ im
    2. âm \ bumâm \ adâ \ hya \ avam \ asm
    3. ânam \ adâ \ hya \ martiyam \ adâ \ h
    4. ya \ šiyâtim \ adâ \ martiyahyâ
    5. \ hya \ Dârayavaum \ xšâyathiyam \ ak
    6. unauš \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ xšâyath
    7. iyam \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ framâtâ
    8. ram \ adam \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ va
    9. zraka \ xšâyathiya \ xšâyathiyânâm
    10. \ xšâyathiya \ dahyûnâm \ vispazanâ
    11. nâm \ xšâyathiya \ ahyâyâ \ bûmi
    12. yâ \ vazrakâyâ \ dûraiapiy \ Vištâs
    13. pahyâ \ puça \ Haxâmanišiya \ Pârsa \ P
    14. ârsahyâ \ puça \ Ariya \ Ariya \ ci
    15. ça \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ xšâya
    16. thiya \ vašnâ \ Auramazdâhâ \ imâ \
    17. dahyâva \ tyâ \ adam \ agarbâyam \
    18. apataram \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ adamšâm \
    19. patiyaxšayaiy \ manâ \ bâjim \ abara
    20. ha \ tvašâm \ hacâma \ athahya \ ava \ a
    21. kunava \ dâtam \ tya \ manâ \ avadiš \
    22. adâraiya \ Mâda \ Ûvja \ Parthava \ Harai
    23. va \ Bâxtriš \ Suguda \ Uvârazm
    24. iš \ Zraka \ Harauvatiš \ Thataguš \ Ga
    25. dâra \ Hiduš \ Sakâ \ haumavargâ \ Sa
    26. kâ \ tigraxaudâ \ Bâbiruš \ A
    27. thurâ \ Arabâya \ Mudrâya \ Armina
    28. \ Katpatuka \ Sparda \ Yauna \ Sakâ \ tyaiy \ pa
    29. radraya \Skudra \ Yaunâ \ takabarâ \ Putây
    30. â \ Kûšiyâ \ Maciyâ \ Karkâ \ thâtiy \ D


    YAUNA in Greeks is Iones Ιωνες

    Most of Anatolian, Arab, and generally East of Greeks, call the Greeks Yauna, Yunan, Yauva
    Most West of Greece call the Greeks as Greeks,

    So at Dareios Tomb are written the Satrapies he ruled,
    We see 2 times the word Yauna,
    1 as Yauna alone = The Ionia, The Anatolian Greek, The Greeks of minor Asia
    2 as Yauna Takabara = Makedonia, The Greeks with flat hat, (shield hat) due to καυσια.

    Same we found at Sussa Behistan Persepolis etc



    So Blevins13,
    You not of Mycenan ancestry, (neither do I),
    Myceneans were not hg Ydna N, and did not spoke Uralic
    and in Anatolia and generally East where you see Yauna Yavan Yunan means Greek,


    THE GREEKS by their modern Persians

    Yauna = Ionia (minor Asian Greeks)
    Yauna Takabara (Makedonians)
    Yauna Drayahya (Central Greeks)
    Yauna Paradraya (N Aegean islands and Thrace, not the Thracians, Skudra)
    Sparda (Sparta)


    hmm
    NOW I MUST THANK YOU BLEVINS13,
    For giving me this fantastic IDEA, to mention, notice and post,
    how the moderns of Makedonian Kingdom, Persians use to call them.


    btw
    I should be a healer, specialized in hazardous reptile poisons.









    Bye bye Blevins13
    These are not Anatolian Greeks, its Obvious what they believe.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    You're conflating two issues. The question whether Macedonians were Hellenes and the question whether they were Greeks in the scientific sense. The Mycenaeans weren't Hellenes but they were Greek.
    Send a PM to him and ask for an explanation.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    hahahahaha

    When the fox can not reach the crapes,
    say that they sour



    Laberia




    as always, the 'I have nothing to say'
    DO THEY LOOK LIKE ANATOLIAN GREEKS TO YOU?


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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Ok another post out of subject by the 2 certain Albanians (Albano-NAZI)
    who always have nothing to say, but they 'say', and only spread poison and throw mud on every thread about Greeks, I will ask to be removed,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    How typical of you





    Interesting the observation of yours,
    But as always just the serpent spreads poison, Waiting for its ihead to be smashed,
    Again scratching the sheperd's bat.


    For Blevis13 the one who told us that Mycenean spoke Uralic and were hg Ydna N

    How Others call the Makedonians
    The era of Makedonian Kingdom before Alexandros
    All minor Asia and Thrace were under Persian occupation,
    Naqsh e Rostam Royal tombs of Achamenides
    The Satrapies of Dareios


    1. baga \ vazraka \ Auramazdâ \ hya \ im
    2. âm \ bumâm \ adâ \ hya \ avam \ asm
    3. ânam \ adâ \ hya \ martiyam \ adâ \ h
    4. ya \ šiyâtim \ adâ \ martiyahyâ
    5. \ hya \ Dârayavaum \ xšâyathiyam \ ak
    6. unauš \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ xšâyath
    7. iyam \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ framâtâ
    8. ram \ adam \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ va
    9. zraka \ xšâyathiya \ xšâyathiyânâm
    10. \ xšâyathiya \ dahyûnâm \ vispazanâ
    11. nâm \ xšâyathiya \ ahyâyâ \ bûmi
    12. yâ \ vazrakâyâ \ dûraiapiy \ Vištâs
    13. pahyâ \ puça \ Haxâmanišiya \ Pârsa \ P
    14. ârsahyâ \ puça \ Ariya \ Ariya \ ci
    15. ça \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ xšâya
    16. thiya \ vašnâ \ Auramazdâhâ \ imâ \
    17. dahyâva \ tyâ \ adam \ agarbâyam \
    18. apataram \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ adamšâm \
    19. patiyaxšayaiy \ manâ \ bâjim \ abara
    20. ha \ tvašâm \ hacâma \ athahya \ ava \ a
    21. kunava \ dâtam \ tya \ manâ \ avadiš \
    22. adâraiya \ Mâda \ Ûvja \ Parthava \ Harai
    23. va \ Bâxtriš \ Suguda \ Uvârazm
    24. iš \ Zraka \ Harauvatiš \ Thataguš \ Ga
    25. dâra \ Hiduš \ Sakâ \ haumavargâ \ Sa
    26. kâ \ tigraxaudâ \ Bâbiruš \ A
    27. thurâ \ Arabâya \ Mudrâya \ Armina
    28. \ Katpatuka \ Sparda \ Yauna \ Sakâ \ tyaiy \ pa
    29. radraya \Skudra \ Yaunâ \ takabarâ \ Putây
    30. â \ Kûšiyâ \ Maciyâ \ Karkâ \ thâtiy \ D


    YAUNA in Greeks is Iones Ιωνες

    Most of Anatolian, Arab, and generally East of Greeks, call the Greeks Yauna, Yunan, Yauva
    Most West of Greece call the Greeks as Greeks,

    So at Dareios Tomb are written the Satrapies he ruled,
    We see 2 times the word Yauna,
    1 as Yauna alone = The Ionia, The Anatolian Greek, The Greeks of minor Asia
    2 as Yauna Takabara = Makedonia, The Greeks with flat hat, (shield hat) due to καυσια.

    Same we found at Sussa Behistan Persepolis etc



    So Blevins13,
    You not of Mycenan ancestry, (neither do I),
    Myceneans were not hg Ydna N, and did not spoke Uralic
    and in Anatolia and generally East where you see Yauna Yavan Yunan means Greek,


    THE GREEKS by their modern Persians

    Yauna = Ionia (minor Asian Greeks)
    Yauna Takabara (Makedonians)
    Yauna Drayahya (Central Greeks)
    Yauna Paradraya (N Aegean islands and Thrace, not the Thracians, Skudra)
    Sparda (Sparta)


    hmm
    NOW I MUST THANK YOU BLEVINS13,
    For giving me this fantastic IDEA, to mention, notice and post,
    how the moderns of Makedonian Kingdom, Persians use to call them.


    btw
    I should be a healer, specialized in hazardous reptile poisons.









    Bye bye Blevins13
    These are not Anatolian Greeks, its Obvious what they believe.

    I never said Mycenaean spoke Uralic you did. I said that have nothing to do with Kurgan people because they are related to Seima - Turbino Culture, while Ancient Macedonian have a lot to do with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials not shaft graves.
    Read again this info, it seems you have forgotten it.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek

    So it seems that Macedonians had nothing to do with Mycenaean and with modern Greeks (after population exchange).


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    hm
    might not
    might yes,

    it was a culture of hg N for certain, so Uralic fits better,
    Don't you think.

    Besides

    The resulting radiocarbon (14C) chronology for the western Siberian sites (22nd–20th centuries cal BC)
    Notice the above is the max back, they centuries from Central Asia to reach West Siberia

    Hettites who had simmilar are about 1600 BC

    Same is the high change of Minyan (NOTICE MINYANS, Not MINOANS) control and culture
    to Mycenean control and culture,
    ατ 1650 when Hettites are in minor Asia, Myceneans are already here,

    so you have to face the dilema,
    If Myceneans are from the area, in which Hettites enter, How come they had such similarity, as pre-Hettit culture, Notice Mycenean tombs before 1650 BC, Hatussa 1600 BC. if remember correct.
    then you go to the North way, from Yamnaa, to Balkans to South Greece,
    there is the other entrance to Greece,
    Here you have to find the old Blegen theory, the archiological connection, as described by Giannopoulos.

    Why? Cause Mycenean are also the Long Corridor culture, the δρομος as called today, the Σικος and the Πτερον a structure not found in Asia till then, no matter Megalithic structures are even today magnificent.
    and their Kurgan are estimated to evolve their way, while their primary earlier form
    so Myceneans and kurgans already existed from 2200 BC, in co-existance with Minyans, ?
    I did not remember the Archaiologist who found such in Lerna and Leykada.
    besides the Mycaenean mettalurgy has nothing to do with Seima Turbino, or with Hettites mettalurgy,
    Mycenean is tin vs Copper, Seima is Arsenic vs copper,
    Almost same littlelittle bit earlier few centuries but mainly 1 century earlier is the Vucedol-Vatin devstation to Greece, mainly to area of proto-Greeks
    the tombs of Cetina as possibly is known to you,
    besides we see a strange change to tomb looking like small boxes, non Minoan, since they put them to pottery,
    Anyway, it is difficult to distinguish,
    but generally we see these strange,
    Minyan culture, certainly autochthonus, possible G2 and other, no need to search now
    Minoan culture which is J2a with no steppe
    No Steppe admixture culture until 2300 BC.
    Vucedol vatin culture entrance from North (para-Cetinas) possibly some Hg I
    Mycenean culture which is J2a which is ave 14% simmilar even today after the Slavic invasions,

    Both populations evolute to Greek till 1600 BC
    The Nothern are the proto-Greek or NW dialects or Paleo-Balkan in the area where georgiev puts them
    the other is Mycenean and S Greek, a substractum that creates also the inner aspirations of evolution of Greek language, to classical, while some return back due to Makedonian influence in Koine (φορθακα - Βατραχις, Φρεαρ-Βρυση)

    the only entrance from East in that era, in the Mycenean world
    is the Arzawwa-Asuwa when were hunted by Hettites,
    so how come this steppe 14% enter to Myceneans and not to Minoans,
    The answer is somewhere above,
    or somewhere we can not see until today,

    about R1a in balkans
    Balkans have a pecculiar very high diversity of R1a,
    in other contitions the numerous varities could claim as homeland of r1a Balkans
    but we consider it as a sink phenomenon,
    the r1a -Z93 found in Thracian tomb is at least a millenium younger,
    yet this does not exclude the possibility of being far ancient to pre and proto Thracian or forms that spread from yamnaa
    But most possible for me is to be Scythian from Srubnaya.

    Anyway Seima Turbino was a culture of N Hg.
    although their usage of chariots etc are simmilar to Mycaenean,
    but not identical mettalurgy, tin vs arsenic

    The time Distance from W Siberia Seima Turbino to the high transform of culture to Mycenean surely is about 4 centuries, and is allowing such aproache and possibility
    Yet the other elements of myceane, as also their genetics, and the continuity of Minyans and NW Greeks hmm ... pale colour
    the ave 14% steppe could enter from Arzawa, from Vucedol, even from women slaves and marriage,
    if 1 out 10 male of a generation takes foreign women, it is about 5% to next male generation?, or I am wrong,
    I am not certain for above but seems logicalThat is all,
    suggest you see the minyan minoan mycenean pottery to understand.

    Aditional if you want to search deeper,
    you must search how much Altaic component have the R1a cultures from the main 3 types of R1a in Balkans,
    cause in population that has 0 Altaic, it is impossible to be ancestor of a population of that was heaby in Altaic.
    so if Myceneans are indead connected with R1a-Z93 of Thracian tombs in Bulgaria then this R1a-Z93 should have limited to zero Altaic component,

    Until then the possibilty of Thracian and Mycenean connection via a pre Mycaene, pre Thracian population from somewhere Ukraine and generally N Pontos area is alive, but does not certified,

    I hope i make my shelf understood.

    to conclude
    The gennetics of Mycaeneans Show rather an adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility,
    than a genetical relativity, and continuity.
    and until now, this adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility culture,
    is not certified if that enter from S Caucasos before or same time with Hettites, straight from minor Asia,
    or via N of Pontos areas. (today ukraine, Georgia, Abhazia etc) via the Thrace. (today Bulgaria)

    a good example is Ireland,
    no matter the Western country of Europe, and need 2 times to pass the sea,
    Yet the Steppe and Altaic components percentages are significant, and surely describe and drive us to certain conclusions
    but that does not happens in Helladic space,

    Period

    Conclusion

    So if someone wrote in Forum about Illyria, whatever he wanted, with easy conclusions,
    cause there is a late such post somewhere there
    this does NOT mean is correct, but rather a biased post, possible for inner-consumption,
    We are used to such 'works' of easy conclusion, for easy mass consuption,
    sometimes Doctoras are giving to such works, specially to Golden boys of political parties,.
    What face here by this 'work', -lets name it such- is this: How come a culture of hg N in 4 centuries pass to a culture of J2 far away, with different genetics, meaning ho Inheritage.
    so a possible solution is via R1a -Z93, NOTICE A Possible
    so 'OK', we found Gold' Myceneans were Siberians''
    it is typical and easy pass to ignorants, if you make amazing cover, and nice images, and say words like 'Only in'
    But is rubbish

    the Logic of such works, is the Bellow
    Guitar is a Instrument (music)
    Policeman is an instrument (of law)
    so Policeman is a Guitar.

    Do you understand why I wanted to stop Blevins13, before say his 'opinion' which is a work in Illyria forum, but tottaly crap.
    But he insisted to spread the crap work, the logic of policeman is a Guitar.
    Don't worry, such Forums exist many in Greece, and all over the world,
    Using their 'proves' and Logic, I can prove you that Greeks came from Andromeda 200 000 before,
    and Seima-turbino were reptilians from the warm area of planet Mars,
    I warn many times the Albanians of Forum about a stupid tv-person, who can explain and prove whatever, in Top Channel,
    Not to believe him.

    look at him
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpraT2zpRLQ
    he can persuade you that earth is empty inside, and monsters live there, locked, waiting to come out,
    He almost persuade Greeks before 1 decade that Incas were Greeks,
    it is pathetic, to be easily conviced, and worst is to produce such.
    How you pinpoint that Seima Turbino were haplo N people? Is there any evidence or sample from them? They might have been haplo 'R1a as well.

    I don't know what's your point. Are you saying that Mycenaeans weren't IE people, but they were some Neolithic G2 haplo people?
    I think that Mycenaean IE heritage is clear. Their language was IE. So were the Tracians, even if Ev13 in Tracians might have outnumbered their true original IE haplo.

    We have proves from history that during the bronze age there were polities ruled by IE elites, while the common ordinary people were not IE. (Mittani, Cassites)

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I never said Mycenaean spoke Uralic you did. I said that have nothing to do with Kurgan people because they are related to Seima - Turbino Culture, while Ancient Macedonian have a lot to do with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials not shaft graves.
    Read again this info, it seems you have forgotten it.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek

    So it seems that Macedonians had nothing to do with Mycenaean and with modern Greeks (after population exchange).


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    No comment mr I said, I did not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    How you pinpoint that Seima Turbino were haplo N people? Is there any evidence or sample from them? They might have been haplo 'R1a as well.

    I don't know what's your point. Are you saying that Mycenaeans weren't IE people, but they were some Neolithic G2 haplo people?
    I think that Mycenaean IE heritage is clear. Their language was IE. So were the Tracians, even if Ev13 in Tracians might have outnumbered their true original IE haplo.

    We have proves from history that during the bronze age there were polities ruled by IE elites, while the common ordinary people were not IE. (Mittani, Cassites)
    Ydna Hg N3a1-B211

    Pirro, plz don't be like the other 2 'known' guys,


    here is your answer,
    and plz go to that stupid of Illyria forum, and tell to stop crap, and toilet work pappers.


    ''
    Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages.''

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...6301604#bbib49

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The consensus is that they were Greeks or para-Greeks. Mycenaeans too were technically para-Greeks, and classical Greeks would have had significant difficulties understanding them. With Macedonians the evidence suggests that Attic Greeks could in fact understand bits and pieces of vernacular Macedonian (see Curtius Rufus). It all comes down to your definition of 'Greek' I guess.
    Hence, you are an English from Germany because you write in English!...

    They were considered as part of Hellenic world only after the Persian Hellenic war.
    Alexander I of Macedon, the philhellene.

    From the time of Mardonius' conquest of Macedon, Alexander I is referred to as hyparchos by Herodotus, meaning subordinate governor. Despite his cooperation with Persia, Alexander I frequently gave supplies and advice to the Greek city states, and warned them of Mardonius' plans before the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC. For example, Alexander I warned the Greeks in Tempe to leave before the arrival of Xerxes' troops, as well as notified them of an alternate route into Thessaly through upper Macedonia. After their defeat in Plataea, the Persian army under the command of Artabazus tried to retreat all the way back to Asia Minor. Most of the 43,000 survivors were attacked and killed by the forces of Alexander at the estuary of the Strymon river. Alexander eventually regained Macedonian independence after the end of the Persian Wars.
    Alexander claimed descent from Argive Greeks and Heracles. After a court of Elean hellanodikai determined his claim to be true, he was permitted to participate in the Olympic Games possibly in 504 BC, an honour reserved only for Greeks. He modelled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poets Pindar and Bacchylides, both of whom dedicated poems to Alexander. The earliest reference to an Athenian proxenos, who lived during the time of the Persian wars (c. 490 BC), is that of Alexander I. Alexander I was given the title "philhellene" (Greek: "φιλέλλην", fond of the Greeks, lover of the Greeks)

    This Macedonian ruler for obvious political reasons made Macedons part of the mighty Hellenic world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Hence, you are an English from Germany because you write in English!...

    They were considered as part of Hellenic world only after the Persian Hellenic war.
    Alexander I of Macedon, the philhellene.

    From the time of Mardonius' conquest of Macedon, Alexander I is referred to as hyparchos by Herodotus, meaning subordinate governor. Despite his cooperation with Persia, Alexander I frequently gave supplies and advice to the Greek city states, and warned them of Mardonius' plans before the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC. For example, Alexander I warned the Greeks in Tempe to leave before the arrival of Xerxes' troops, as well as notified them of an alternate route into Thessaly through upper Macedonia. After their defeat in Plataea, the Persian army under the command of Artabazus tried to retreat all the way back to Asia Minor. Most of the 43,000 survivors were attacked and killed by the forces of Alexander at the estuary of the Strymon river. Alexander eventually regained Macedonian independence after the end of the Persian Wars.
    Alexander claimed descent from Argive Greeks and Heracles. After a court of Elean hellanodikai determined his claim to be true, he was permitted to participate in the Olympic Games possibly in 504 BC, an honour reserved only for Greeks. He modelled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poets Pindar and Bacchylides, both of whom dedicated poems to Alexander. The earliest reference to an Athenian proxenos, who lived during the time of the Persian wars (c. 490 BC), is that of Alexander I. Alexander I was given the title "philhellene" (Greek: "φιλέλλην", fond of the Greeks, lover of the Greeks)

    This Macedonian ruler for obvious political reasons made Macedons part of the mighty Hellenic world.
    By whom they were considered such?

    Strabo is Clear,
    Many ancient are clear,
    and The Persians distinguish them from Asian Greeks, from Greeks, from Sparta, But consider them as Hellenes,
    Yauna Takabara,

    So why Persian consider them Greeks?

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