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Thread: Macedonians

  1. #926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    How typical of you





    Interesting the observation of yours,
    But as always just the serpent spreads poison, Waiting for its ihead to be smashed,
    Again scratching the sheperd's bat.


    For Blevis13 the one who told us that Mycenean spoke Uralic and were hg Ydna N

    How Others call the Makedonians
    The era of Makedonian Kingdom before Alexandros
    All minor Asia and Thrace were under Persian occupation,
    Naqsh e Rostam Royal tombs of Achamenides
    The Satrapies of Dareios


    1. baga \ vazraka \ Auramazdâ \ hya \ im
    2. âm \ bumâm \ adâ \ hya \ avam \ asm
    3. ânam \ adâ \ hya \ martiyam \ adâ \ h
    4. ya \ šiyâtim \ adâ \ martiyahyâ
    5. \ hya \ Dârayavaum \ xšâyathiyam \ ak
    6. unauš \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ xšâyath
    7. iyam \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ framâtâ
    8. ram \ adam \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ va
    9. zraka \ xšâyathiya \ xšâyathiyânâm
    10. \ xšâyathiya \ dahyûnâm \ vispazanâ
    11. nâm \ xšâyathiya \ ahyâyâ \ bûmi
    12. yâ \ vazrakâyâ \ dûraiapiy \ Vištâs
    13. pahyâ \ puça \ Haxâmanišiya \ Pârsa \ P
    14. ârsahyâ \ puça \ Ariya \ Ariya \ ci
    15. ça \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ xšâya
    16. thiya \ vašnâ \ Auramazdâhâ \ imâ \
    17. dahyâva \ tyâ \ adam \ agarbâyam \
    18. apataram \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ adamšâm \
    19. patiyaxšayaiy \ manâ \ bâjim \ abara
    20. ha \ tvašâm \ hacâma \ athahya \ ava \ a
    21. kunava \ dâtam \ tya \ manâ \ avadiš \
    22. adâraiya \ Mâda \ Ûvja \ Parthava \ Harai
    23. va \ Bâxtriš \ Suguda \ Uvârazm
    24. iš \ Zraka \ Harauvatiš \ Thataguš \ Ga
    25. dâra \ Hiduš \ Sakâ \ haumavargâ \ Sa
    26. kâ \ tigraxaudâ \ Bâbiruš \ A
    27. thurâ \ Arabâya \ Mudrâya \ Armina
    28. \ Katpatuka \ Sparda \ Yauna \ Sakâ \ tyaiy \ pa
    29. radraya \Skudra \ Yaunâ \ takabarâ \ Putây
    30. â \ Kûšiyâ \ Maciyâ \ Karkâ \ thâtiy \ D


    YAUNA in Greeks is Iones Ιωνες

    Most of Anatolian, Arab, and generally East of Greeks, call the Greeks Yauna, Yunan, Yauva
    Most West of Greece call the Greeks as Greeks,

    So at Dareios Tomb are written the Satrapies he ruled,
    We see 2 times the word Yauna,
    1 as Yauna alone = The Ionia, The Anatolian Greek, The Greeks of minor Asia
    2 as Yauna Takabara = Makedonia, The Greeks with flat hat, (shield hat) due to καυσια.

    Same we found at Sussa Behistan Persepolis etc



    So Blevins13,
    You not of Mycenan ancestry, (neither do I),
    Myceneans were not hg Ydna N, and did not spoke Uralic
    and in Anatolia and generally East where you see Yauna Yavan Yunan means Greek,


    THE GREEKS by their modern Persians

    Yauna = Ionia (minor Asian Greeks)
    Yauna Takabara (Makedonians)
    Yauna Drayahya (Central Greeks)
    Yauna Paradraya (N Aegean islands and Thrace, not the Thracians, Skudra)
    Sparda (Sparta)


    hmm
    NOW I MUST THANK YOU BLEVINS13,
    For giving me this fantastic IDEA, to mention, notice and post,
    how the moderns of Makedonian Kingdom, Persians use to call them.


    btw
    I should be a healer, specialized in hazardous reptile poisons.









    Bye bye Blevins13
    These are not Anatolian Greeks, its Obvious what they believe.

    Yauna takabata, means , Greeks with hats like shields. Illyrians looked as mushrooms due to their hats. Just to mention

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    You're conflating two issues. The question whether Macedonians were Hellenes and the question whether they were Greeks in the scientific sense. The Mycenaeans weren't Hellenes but they were Greek.
    Hellenes, is endonym
    Greeks, is exonym

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    Country: Macedonia



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    Doesn't the name from Macedonian Argead Dynasty Alexander I Philhellene clear some things ?
    "In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." or simply Friend of Greeks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RagnarofMacedon View Post
    Doesn't the name from Macedonian Argead Dynasty Alexander I Philhellene clear some things ?
    "In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." or simply Friend of Greeks...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon

    Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
    Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them,
    worked as anbassador for Xerxes
    But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
    Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
    PhilHellen also means patriot, and is a title given by Atheneans.
    his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.

    Notice when you speak about Ancient Greeks, the status can not be compared as today modern states,
    Each city was a state of its own, When Romans came, Greek states divided, some allied Rome, etc etc.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  5. #930
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Barbarian

    The Oxford English Dictionary defines five meanings of the noun barbarian, including an obsolete Barbary usage.
    2. Hist. a. One not a Greek.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    : "...he(Philip II) is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."

    Demosthenes- Third Philippic 31

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hahaha

    Laberia strikes again

    Barbaros, a greek word identified even in Linear B

    means the ones who when speaks make noise,
    notice the dog barks

    Linear b pa-pa-ro
    modern Greek pa-pa-ries paparas

    you are funny

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    : "...he(Philip II) is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."

    Demosthenes- Third Philippic 31

    I will stay at the one bold,
    he is not a Greek,
    BUT he is not a Barbarian also

    Hahaha

    good morning,
    you make my day,

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    They could well be Phrygian people if foreign not Greek,there is similar tribe of Mygdones with little difference than Makedones.Either Phrygian or Thracian in origin.

    In myth on the slope of mount Bermion the Phrygian king Midas garden was located,that is where Macedonian royalty will emerge,in history the region was known as Emathia,Thrace and Paeonian even in times of Xerxes when he marched trough Chalcidice to Therma.

    Myths;
    Mygdon of Phrygia ally of king Priam
    Mygdon son of Ares eponym of Mygdones and so on.

    It seems that Macedonians if Greeks were much later immigrants into the land.

    The history of Macedonia may be said to begin with Amyntas' reign 540 – 498 BC . He was the first of its rulers to have diplomatic relations with other states.
    The rest of the kings seem mythical about the Argead dynasty.If we are to believe this story we should accept the Argeads as later immigrants in the land.

    If it was from Peloponese Argos or Argos Orestikon in upper Macedonia? Seems that in the myth they are connected to Argos in Peloponese,made up or not that is how they claimed Greek ancestry.

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    Calling Macedonian "Para-Greek" is like a french nationalist calling Italian "Para-French" and Latin "Proto-French".

    Here is something from a linguist friend of mine:

    For example, Thracians had the name "Diazenis", their version of the Greek "Diogenes", and we know this wasn't a loan word from Greek, but rather an inherited word from the common paleo-balkan language.

    So the reconstruction of this name would be *diwo-g'enh1ēs.

    *w disappears intervocally in Thracian as in Greek and Albanian;
    *o becomes a in Thracian as in Albanian;
    *g' becomes z in Thracian as in Albanian (this is compatible with Albanian d, which could continue *dz < *g')
    Problematic is i from , as we know that in Albanian *ē > *ā > o. So albanian differs from Thracian here.

    On the basis of this name we could say that a hypothetical Thracian-Albanian subgroup split from the paleo-balkan group as PIE was still .

    This could be comparable with the situation in the Germanic languages (*ē > Gothic e > Late-Got. i, *ē > North-, Westgermanic *ā).

    *diwo-g'enh1ēs would develop to Proto-Albanian *di(w)a-dźenēs > *djađnāh > *za(đ)no > *zənə > Alb. Tosk *zer / Gheg *zn.


    The matter of the fact is that Thracian is a paleo-balkan language like Greek and Albanian meaning they both come from the same root (this is most likely theory atm). It is incorrect to call a proto langauge common to all these Proto-Greek or Proto-Albanian. If Macedonian is also part of a subgroup that split early off of the common paleo-balkan one, it is incorrect from a scientific perspective to call it a greek dialect, or para-greek.

    That the macedonians became hellenized is not being contested. There were Albanian prime ministers that served the ottoman empire, it doesn't make them ethnically turkish though.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Calling Macedonian "Para-Greek" is like a french nationalist calling Italian "Para-French" and Latin "Proto-French".

    Here is something from a linguist friend of mine:

    For example, Thracians had the name "Diazenis", their version of the Greek "Diogenes", and we know this wasn't a loan word from Greek, but rather an inherited word from the common paleo-balkan language.

    So the reconstruction of this name would be *diwo-g'enh1ēs.

    *w disappears intervocally in Thracian as in Greek and Albanian;
    *o becomes a in Thracian as in Albanian;
    *g' becomes z in Thracian as in Albanian (this is compatible with Albanian d, which could continue *dz < *g')
    Problematic is i from , as we know that in Albanian *ē > *ā > o. So albanian differs from Thracian here.

    On the basis of this name we could say that a hypothetical Thracian-Albanian subgroup split from the paleo-balkan group as PIE was still .

    This could be comparable with the situation in the Germanic languages (*ē > Gothic e > Late-Got. i, *ē > North-, Westgermanic *ā).

    *diwo-g'enh1ēs would develop to Proto-Albanian *di(w)a-dźenēs > *djađ�nāh > *za(đ)�no > *zə�nə > Alb. Tosk *zer� / Gheg *z�n�.


    The matter of the fact is that Thracian is a paleo-balkan language like Greek and Albanian meaning they both come from the same root (this is most likely theory atm). It is incorrect to call a proto langauge common to all these Proto-Greek or Proto-Albanian. If Macedonian is also part of a subgroup that split early off of the common paleo-balkan one, it is incorrect from a scientific perspective to call it a greek dialect, or para-greek.

    That the macedonians became hellenized is not being contested. There were Albanian prime ministers that served the ottoman empire, it doesn't make them ethnically turkish though.
    There is but a small likelihood that Macedonian was Para-Greek - it was most likely just Greek, hence Attic speakers could somewhat understand them. It's most parsimonious to assume they just spoke the divergent Doric of the Pella curse tablet.

    This is completely unrelated to the question of their Hellenic identity. The Mycenaeans were ethnic Greeks who spoke Greek, but they weren't Hellenes and would have had extreme difficulties communicating with them.

    You can substitute 'Greek' for 'X' if that offends you less. All linguists call it Greek though.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    There is but a small likelihood that Macedonian was Para-Greek - it was most likely just Greek, hence Attic speakers could somewhat understand them. It's most parsimonious to assume they just spoke the divergent Doric of the Pella curse tablet.

    This is completely unrelated to the question of their Hellenic identity. The Mycenaeans were ethnic Greeks who spoke Greek, but they weren't Hellenes and would have had extreme difficulties communicating with them.

    You can substitute 'Greek' for 'X' if that offends you less. All linguists call it Greek though.
    According to R.A. Crossland, the phonological features that Macedonian has would have required it to split off from the paleo-balkan branch before Mycenean even existed. That is far too distant to be called para-greek.

    Likewise, the archeological reality of Macedonia is that there is no real mycenean presence, and the grave culture is illyrian and phrygian.

    And the Curtius Rufus quote have a different opinion to you on. If it was just a dialect, there would be no mention of "learning" it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    According to R.A. Crossland, the phonological features that Macedonian has would have required it to split off from the paleo-balkan branch before Mycenean even existed. That is far too distant to be called para-greek.

    Likewise, the archeological reality of Macedonia is that there is no real mycenean presence, and the grave culture is illyrian and phrygian.

    And the Curtius Rufus quote have a different opinion to you on. If it was just a dialect, there would be no mention of "learning" it.
    That guy published before the tablets were even found...

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    That guy published before the tablets were even found...
    The curse tablets prove nothing but that there were west greek speakers in the vicinity, and he explicitly mentions the Doric and Thessalian relations with Macedonians, so again, not convincing.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The curse tablets prove nothing but that there were west greek speakers in the vicinity, and he explicitly mentions the Doric and Thessalian relations with Macedonians, so again, not convincing.

    In the vicinity? Pella was the capital of Macedon.

    Not one modern scholar is cited in those books.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Hesiod marks Pieria as the homeland of Macedonians. And the archaeological record shows until 650BC only Phrygian and Illyrian culture. That is from Oxford, 2014

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Hesiod marks Pieria as the homeland of Macedonians. And the archaeological record shows until 650BC only Phrygian and Illyrian culture. That is from Oxford, 2014
    Who says the Macedonians were there at that time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Hesiod marks Pieria as the homeland of Macedonians. And the archaeological record shows until 650BC only Phrygian and Illyrian culture. That is from Oxford, 2014
    What?

    I suggest look and search again Pieria,

    why Pieria is in Argeiad Makedonia and Pierian gulf is in East Makedonia
    What was Herakleia city?
    Perdikas 1rst sent them to Paggaion
    Perdikas is about 650 BC

    Pieria of that Era had 3 parts,
    East of Olympus, where we see Thracian orpheus Leivethra,
    Makedonian Herakleia
    Makedonian Πιμπλεια
    Mycenean settlements

    West of Olympus the Area of Selloi meaning Hellanes
    and the Thettalian Olossoi

    the south part of Pieria mt and the valley,
    where Balla and Pydna cities where, both Makedonian
    Interesting City is the Phylakes,

    Above Pieria is the Ematheia. the land of kings, the Aigaes.

    West of Pieria mt is the Ελυμεια and the Aiane,
    42% of ancient Makedonian written are from there.
    Elymeia is the Upper Makedonia,
    an indipented Makedonian kingdom which needed to reach 3 centuries after karanos to enter under Argeiads.

    In Upper Makedonia we have the third Linear writting simmilar to Linear A and Linear B.

    Upper Makedonia was the area from Ohrida to Pindus, including parts of today call Epirus, or Epirus Nova,
    In Upper Makedonia except Makedonians also existed Thracian tribes, which either assimilated until Makedonia of Phillip, or devastate North and East
    Uper Makedonia is the core of proto-Greek speaking.

    The early Makedonians are not the Makedonian kingdom, as in seen after Phillip 2nd,
    rather a population that spoke primitive Greek, and dwell with other Thracian tribes, or Vucedol/Vatin tribes.


    @ DERITE
    PLS DO US ALL A FAVOR,
    instead of posting us theories of before the late archaiological founds,I suggest find and post us something indeed old
    For a lover of anticerie and antica books like you,
    I suggest find Hesychious Lexicon, which is far older, and I am sure you will love it.
    and post us the real Makedonian language as written down by Hesychios.
    and then compare it with the manuscripts that we have from Makedonia.

    Until then Bye Bye.





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    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    According to R.A. Crossland, the phonological features that Macedonian has would have required it to split off from the paleo-balkan branch before Mycenean even existed. That is far too distant to be called para-greek.

    Likewise, the archeological reality of Macedonia is that there is no real mycenean presence, and the grave culture is illyrian and phrygian.

    And the Curtius Rufus quote have a different opinion to you on. If it was just a dialect, there would be no mention of "learning" it.

    @ DERITE
    PLS DO US ALL A FAVOR,
    instead of posting us theories of before the late archaiological founds,I suggest find and post us something indeed old
    For a lover of anticerie and antica books like you,
    I suggest find Hesychious Lexicon, which is far older antica, and I am sure you will love it.
    and post us the real Makedonian language as written down by Hesychios.
    and then compare it with the manuscripts that we have from Makedonia.

    Until then Bye Bye.


    as for the written at last phases of Alexander's campaign.
    you will understand when you find Hesychios Lexicon,
    First Find and learn Makedonian language,
    as written down in Lexicons and manuscripts,
    and post us these books,

    man I maybe know 10% of their Vocabulary
    and you probably know less than 1%
    and some of these scholars maybe never hear Makedonian Dialect.
    or even see it written down.

    Bye bye again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon

    Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
    Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them,
    worked as anbassador for Xerxes
    But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
    Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
    PhilHellen also means patriot, and is a title given by Atheneans.
    his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.

    Notice when you speak about Ancient Greeks, the status can not be compared as today modern states,
    Each city was a state of its own, When Romans came, Greek states divided, some allied Rome, etc etc.
    The myth about Argead dynasty was only written and drawn during the reign of Alexander I of Macedon, soon after the Persian-Hellenic wars. Only afterwards we have the Argead dynasty allowed to participate in Olympic games. Their Greek heritage was testified by Herodotus himself.
    In simple words, only after the vital service given to Greeks by Alexander I the philhellene, his dynasty was accepted as Hellenic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I will stay at the one bold,
    he is not a Greek,
    BUT he is not a Barbarian also

    Hahaha

    good morning,
    you make my day,
    Actually, it means typically, Illyrian. Among barbarians, the Illyrians were the most savages ones.
    Not all barbarians were not illiterate and uncivilized. Otherwise, Illyrians were totally uncivilized, illiterate, and super barbarian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    They could well be Phrygian people if foreign not Greek,there is similar tribe of Mygdones with little difference than Makedones.Either Phrygian or Thracian in origin.

    In myth on the slope of mount Bermion the Phrygian king Midas garden was located,that is where Macedonian royalty will emerge,in history the region was known as Emathia,Thrace and Paeonian even in times of Xerxes when he marched trough Chalcidice to Therma.

    Myths;
    Mygdon of Phrygia ally of king Priam
    Mygdon son of Ares eponym of Mygdones and so on.

    It seems that Macedonians if Greeks were much later immigrants into the land.

    The history of Macedonia may be said to begin with Amyntas' reign 540 – 498 BC . He was the first of its rulers to have diplomatic relations with other states.
    The rest of the kings seem mythical about the Argead dynasty.If we are to believe this story we should accept the Argeads as later immigrants in the land.

    If it was from Peloponese Argos or Argos Orestikon in upper Macedonia? Seems that in the myth they are connected to Argos in Peloponese,made up or not that is how they claimed Greek ancestry.
    In the time of when the myth was invented, Macedons were an unimportant tribe vassal of Persia. Their Royal house invented this myth for political reasons. The same did the Dorians when they settled in Peloponnese. Attica, Beotia, and Peloponnese were the cradle of civilization.

    Ancient Illyrians and Greeks were the opposite of the ancient world. Illyrians the most back warded , and the Greeks the most civilised. What you're excepting from Macedonian Royal house to do? Claiming descent from Illyrians, whom had no written records and whether not any historicity on their origins!!! Or they should claim to be part of the mighty Hellenisms!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Who says the Macedonians were there at that time?
    Their founding myth of their Royal dynasty. According to them, their dynasty was founded circa eighth century bce

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    Man is clear what that means , you can tell me now like 20 more meanings , but there is Hellene and Philhellene , One is Greek with Greek Culture and language second is Non-greek who accepted Greek culture and language...So simple, but no you will go further and thats mean patriot...If in that time that kind of word existed, anyways patriot for which Country ?When first country in europe is Macedonia all rest were greek city-states also occupied by Macedonians ?1.
    PATRIOT a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

    We all know that 50,000 Greeks fight with Persians against Macedonians and Alexander , for which part of land for what country ?I dont get it patriot if they were opposites , if they killed each other... ?Alexander and Macedonians killed so much Greeks thats nowdays is funny for Greeks to celebrate Macedonians and Alexander, That like jews to celebrate Hitler and set statue of him in Tel-Aviv...



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    Quote Originally Posted by RagnarofMacedon View Post
    Man is clear what that means , you can tell me now like 20 more meanings , but there is Hellene and Philhellene , One is Greek with Greek Culture and language second is Non-greek who accepted Greek culture and language...

    A philhellene is not someone who accepted the Greek culture and language. It is someone who loves the Greeks or the Greek cause. It could be non-Greek, like lord Byron in modern times, but in Ancient times the term meant patriot. Someone who put the Greek ethnos above his state. Both Greeks and non-Greeks were described as Philhellenes.

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