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Thread: Macedonians

  1. #1026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It is important to know where was Macedonia, as you read here: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=macedonia the name of Macedonia is from ancient Greek makros "long, large": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B...#Ancient_Greek from Proto-Indo-European *mh₂ḱros, cognate with Indo-Iranian masru "Egypt" (Egyptian Arabic masr, Mycenaean Greek misarajo).
    there can be 2 official well stated terminations,
    and a third possible via LPIE

    Α) tall nation, big body
    the primary tested one and certified means Tall,-big people
    that is also the explanation of Magnetas the brother of Makedonas
    Magnetas live south of Makedonas in East parts of Thessaly,
    compare Greek Megas-megalos means both Great-Big
    the edos-ednos -edonoi etc means cousins-nation etc, in attic and koine typical of Makedonian d-θ is ethnos εθνος
    so the possibility Mak-edon =tall nation

    B) long relatives, split clan
    the terminology of -ednos can also mean long cousin or split cousin from hive
    in that case all three Makednos Magnetas Mygdon means split-clan
    infact myg-don is the remnants of Brygians,
    Brygians older known homeland was today Dyrrachium,
    by the coming of illyrians-proprie, Brygian moved east and, south north of primary Makedonia, south of Paeonians, but from their cities, we see their cities and them living among other clans, like nextby village - but other people
    Then moved to Phrygia, the ones who left were called Mygdonεs, Μυγδονες
    Μυγ from Αμυς-αμυχη means split from scratch,

    C) the Armenian Hypothesis in Thracian (not certified)
    that is not attested, but it is possible,
    notice the Scotish clans have a Mc a Mac before their clan names,
    in Thracian vocabulary Muca ment the male youth, 'the sons' (see Duridanov)
    the word exist also in Armenian,
    so it is possible that Myssians, Myceneans, Makedonians, Mygdonians etc and other in Balkans and Asia minor mean (the sons of)
    it is a possible, but can not explain the secondary synthetic, as also
    I heard the above as alternative theory, but rejected from the same who proposed it.
    cause it should have a Mus if was Armeno-Tracian, and not -k or -g
    Last edited by Yetos; 23-06-19 at 19:54.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Culturally ancient Macedonians were certainly a Hellenic people, an ancient Macedonian temple has been found in Masjid Soleyman in the southwest of Iran:




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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Makedon actually meant Highlander in Ancient Greek. Equivalent to the Albanian term ‘Malesor’.
    There is complete truth in your post.

    Not sure why someone thumbed it down.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post

    I clearly stated in my previous post that when speaking of the real ancient Makedonians of the time of Philip, you modern Northern Macedonians are mostly a Paeonian-Slav mix, but of course you also have some Makedonian, Dardanian, Thracian, Illyrian, Brygian, etc.
    There was no slavs there at the time of Philip

    northern macedonians would be a Paeonian-Macedon mix
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post

    So there is clearly great overlap between Macedonians and Albanians...
    Maybe this overlap started here

    Macedonian–Carthaginian Treaty was an anti-Roman treaty between Philip V of Macedon and Hannibal, leader of the Carthaginians, which was drawn up after the Battle of Cannae when Hannibal seemed poised to conquer Rome. Philip V, who feared Roman expansion, wanted to ride on the coat tails of the victor in the Second Punic War (218–201 BC). The discovery of this treaty inevitably led to the outbreak of the First Macedonian War (214–205 BC) between Rome and its Greek allies against Macedonia

    Rome had to stop macedonian supplies reaching Hannibal in Itlay from Macedonia's Albanian ports .................see map in link below


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Macedonian_War

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    There was no slavs there at the time of Philip

    northern macedonians would be a Paeonian-Macedon mix
    Really? Mind blown. :O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Really? Mind blown. :O

    Why Peonian-Macedon mix? Macedonian territory was like next to Nish (nowdays Serbia),anyways Peonians were Thraco-Illyrian,they were apsorbed in Macedonian Kingdom like many other illyrians and thracians, there were not pure nations, Macedonians had many thraco-macedonians, illyro-macedonians, thraco-illyrians, greco-macedonians, same with Greeks they were mix of many like Assyrians,Jews,Egyptians,Persians,Thracians,Macedo nians,Illyrians with Greeks...
    And many of barbarians (thracians,illyrians,macedonians) accepted Hellenism because in that time was like Religion , with already famous gods,laws and language with perspective, coine language in that time(greek nowdays) famous like english nowdays, wind in the back for barbarian traders...So like nowdays Orthodox Christianity , they r not same nation but workship same god and customs have same traditions...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RagnarofMacedon View Post
    Why Peonian-Macedon mix? Macedonian territory was like next to Nish (nowdays Serbia),anyways Peonians were Thraco-Illyrian,they were apsorbed in Macedonian Kingdom like many other illyrians and thracians, there were not pure nations, Macedonians had many thraco-macedonians, illyro-macedonians, thraco-illyrians, greco-macedonians, same with Greeks they were mix of many like Assyrians,Jews,Egyptians,Persians,Thracians,Macedo nians,Illyrians with Greeks...
    And many of barbarians (thracians,illyrians,macedonians) accepted Hellenism because in that time was like Religion , with already famous gods,laws and language with perspective, coine language in that time(greek nowdays) famous like english nowdays, wind in the back for barbarian traders...So like nowdays Orthodox Christianity , they r not same nation but workship same god and customs have same traditions...
    When talking about Ancient Macedonia, we talk about the land inhabited by the original tribe which inhabited a small piece of land in Northern Greece near the Aegean. We are not talking about their conquests and/or expansions. In reality, North Macedonia was almost in its entirety not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians, nor was it part of the original Macedonia. It was mostly Paeonian and Dardanian inhabited land. There were also Epirot Greeks in what is now Pelagonia (North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia). But you can rest assured, because Alexanders mother hailed from that tribe.

  9. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by RagnarofMacedon View Post
    Why Peonian-Macedon mix? Macedonian territory was like next to Nish (nowdays Serbia),anyways Peonians were Thraco-Illyrian,they were apsorbed in Macedonian Kingdom like many other illyrians and thracians, there were not pure nations, Macedonians had many thraco-macedonians, illyro-macedonians, thraco-illyrians, greco-macedonians, same with Greeks they were mix of many like Assyrians,Jews,Egyptians,Persians,Thracians,Macedo nians,Illyrians with Greeks...
    And many of barbarians (thracians,illyrians,macedonians) accepted Hellenism because in that time was like Religion , with already famous gods,laws and language with perspective, coine language in that time(greek nowdays) famous like english nowdays, wind in the back for barbarian traders...So like nowdays Orthodox Christianity , they r not same nation but workship same god and customs have same traditions...
    Paeonians are a mix of macedonians and dardanians there is no thracian or illyrian on there mix

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    When talking about Ancient Macedonia, we talk about the land inhabited by the original tribe which inhabited a small piece of land in Northern Greece near the Aegean. We are not talking about their conquests and/or expansions. In reality, North Macedonia was almost in its entirety not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians, nor was it part of the original Macedonia. It was mostly Paeonian and Dardanian inhabited land. There were also Epirot Greeks in what is now Pelagonia (North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia). But you can rest assured, because Alexanders mother hailed from that tribe.
    That's what people don't understand. Ancient Macedonia was a very small area/kingdom/tribe who then expanded tremendously through conquest, alliances and marriages of convenience. It was surrounded by other much larger Illyrian and Thracian tribes. Current province of Greece, Macedonia is too big for what the land of Macedons originally included. So is Northern Macedonia. Only very small number of people around what is now Pella can call themselves descendants of Macedonians. The rest, Greek Macedonia and North Macedonia are just appropriating the name.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 22-11-19 at 18:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    That's what people don't understand. Ancient Macedonia was a very small area/kingdom/tribe who then expanded tremendously through conquest, alliances and marriages of convenience. It was surrounded by other much larger Illyrian and Thracian tribes. Current province of Greece, Macedonia is too big for what the land of Macedons originally included. So is Northern Macedonia. Only very small number of people around what is now Pella can call themselves descendants of Macedonians. The rest, Greek Macedonia and North Macedonia are just appropriating the name.
    Yeah, many fanatics don't understand, however the term Macedonia was first applied in the 19th century by the Greek priests and clerics after the abolishment of the Ohrid archbishopric in order to attract and hellenize the Bulgarian population in Macedonia(the historical one of course). Prior to that of course every Slavic speaking men in Macedonia was calling his language Bulgarian and his people Bulgarians.
    Let's not forget how Germanos Karavangelis attracted Kote or Kottas to the Greek cause. Basically telling him how the Slavic speaking people in Macedonia aren't Bulgarians but Bulgarised Macedonians, descendants of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians.
    Basically in those times there were no borders like today and people living in Macedonia and beyond, in what is today Northern Macedonia were basically the same people, speaking the same language and intermarrying.
    After the Greeks achieved the goal and got Macedonia from the Ottomans, there was no more need to spread propaganda in order to attract local Bulgarians.
    However, the idea itself spread across the border and the rest is a history. So the Greeks have no one to blame but themselves when the people across the border appropriate the Ancient Macedonians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Yeah, many fanatics don't understand, however the term Macedonia was first applied in the 19th century by the Greek priests and clerics after the abolishment of the Ohrid archbishopric in order to attract and hellenize the Bulgarian population in Macedonia(the historical one of course). Prior to that of course every Slavic speaking men in Macedonia was calling his language Bulgarian and his people Bulgarians.
    Let's not forget how Germanos Karavangelis attracted Kote or Kottas to the Greek cause. Basically telling him how the Slavic speaking people in Macedonia aren't Bulgarians but Bulgarised Macedonians, descendants of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians.
    Basically in those times there were no borders like today and people living in Macedonia and beyond, in what is today Northern Macedonia were basically the same people, speaking the same language and intermarrying.
    After the Greeks achieved the goal and got Macedonia from the Ottomans, there was no more need to spread propaganda in order to attract local Bulgarians.
    However, the idea itself spread across the border and the rest is a history. So the Greeks have no one to blame but themselves when the people across the border appropriate the Ancient Macedonians.
    Greeks used and emphasized the term Macedonia to safeguard their Hellenic influence in the region. The Bulgarization of the area was the only serious threat from Greece's perspective at the time. In fact, I would argue that there was no other serious threat ever since. The Bulgarians had a solid narrative. There were Slavic speakers in the region, and the medieval Bulgarian empires were a fact in history. The Greeks would counter this narrative with emphasis of Byzantine and Ancient Greek history of the region. And hence the term Macedonian Slavs was born, with the help of the Greeks among others.

    The Yugoslavs brought this to another level a few decades later, arguing that Macedonian Slavs are not Bulgarians indeed, but they also have nothing to do with the Ancient Greeks. Because they are a totally unrelated people. This went against Athens bidding ofcourse. But compared to the Bulgarian threat, it was not a major setback. The historical claims and the connection of the Ancient Macedonians to the Macedonian Slavs were quite un-academic. And no one took these claims seriously. So Greece looked the other way. It was more of a nuisance rather than anything else. One could argue that it did the Macedonian Slavs more harm than it did the Greeks. Given the above, the Prespa agreement will do more good than harm for both nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    That's what people don't understand. Ancient Macedonia was a very small area/kingdom/tribe who then expanded tremendously through conquest, alliances and marriages of convenience. It was surrounded by other much larger Illyrian and Thracian tribes. Current province of Greece, Macedonia is too big for what the land of Macedons originally included. So is Northern Macedonia. Only very small number of people around what is now Pella can call themselves descendants of Macedonians. The rest, Greek Macedonia and North Macedonia are just appropriating the name.
    Well, it became Macedonia in due time. I wouldn't say anyone is appropriating the name. Especially the Greek region became Macedonia as early as under the reign of Philip. But the name stuck in the greater region for centuries after that and it changed its geographic connotation many times. This has been a natural process. We simply have to understand that Macedonia became a name which was exclusively geographic and not ethnic. The problem occurs when people within this region, at any given time, start to think that this region belongs to their ethnic cultural heritage. This is quite dubious and a-historical.

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    You are all forgetting that the North was only Macedonia when the Romans had the area...it was a large geographic area that the Romans called Macedonia...it had nothing to do with the Real Macedonia in northern Greece. "North Macedonia" is literally the geographic area of Roman North Macedonia....again nothing to do with the real Macedonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    You are all forgetting that the North was only Macedonia when the Romans had the area...it was a large geographic area that the Romans called Macedonia...it had nothing to do with the Real Macedonia in northern Greece. "North Macedonia" is literally the geographic area of Roman North Macedonia....again nothing to do with the real Macedonia.
    Actually it became Macedonia with the conquest of the Philip north in the territory of the Paeonians. Since then the territory was effectively Macedonia and that's why when the Romans came they didn't even have doubts how to call the territory of current N.Macedonia. So it remained as such for centuries thereafter, with some minor distinctions such as Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Secunda. Of course, the original Macedonians lived to south of this territory however as I explained already it became effectively Macedonia during their time not during the Romans.

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    Although N.Macedonia is a small country, there are some big differences among the people who call themselves Macedonians nowadays, mainly differences in the language they speak. Modern Macedonian language is the standardized form which doesn't reflect big part of the current spoken dialects but only those of the Western-Central part of the country, the white part in the image:


    The Macedonian dialects form a continuity with the Bulgarian dialects over the border and there is no sharp border between them as there is with the Serb dialects which of course are part of a different language. The only exception to this rule might be the Torlakian dialects of the north-east which show increased Serb influence in it's vocabulary and which are phenomenon of it's own, although clearly grammatically wise still closer to Bulgaro-Macedonian continuum and part of the Balkan Sprachbund which the Serb language is not part of.

    Originally the Old Church Slavonic didn't have the features of the Balkan Sparchbund, among which the most important are: the loss of infinitive, the loss of case declension, and the use of enclitic definite articles. In this situation, the most similar to the Bulgaro-Macedonian language continuum is the Farsheroti Aromanian language spoken around the Ohrid-Prespa area which shares the most futures with Macedonian unlike other Aromanian dialects. This is very interesting because Ohrid-Prespa was the contact area between the two groups and here the famous literary school of Ohrid operated opened by St.Clement and St.Naum under the permission of Tsar Boris of Bulgaria. It was most likely here that the two groups intermingled between each other because modern Macedonian sounds as if an Aromanian person tries to speak Old Church Slavonic. And it's not only the grammar that has been effected but the lexicon as well as in many Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects there are plenty of words that have been transmitted both ways. I was happy to confirm even a genetic link of my own to this area and therefore I am quite sure that the intermingling of the languages was followed with genetic flows as well. As for why this conversion of Aromanian speakers to Bulgaro-Macedonian happened happened the most likely explanation is the Church as institution and the Old Church Slavonic as the religious language of diocese of Prespa under which the Aromanian speakers of that region belonged.

    A small brief of the population history and migrations on the territory of North Macedonia from the late antiquity to modern days.

    The pre-Slavic people did survive on the territory of modern N.Macedonia. The famous Macedonian-Croatian archaeologist Ivan Mikulcic is one of the best researchers of Ancient and Medieval Macedonia. In his book "Medieval towns and castles in Macedonia" Mikulcic writes that the civilized city life in N.Macedonia ends in the year 584/85 when a large raiding party of Avars and Slavs started systematically to pillage and destroy the Roman towns in N.Macedonia. Mikulcic writes that the Roman people found salvation either fleeing south towards Constantinople, Thessaloniki, the Aegean isles and Anatolia or fleeing to the fortified places in the mountains. In more than twenty fortified places up in the mountains are found traces of continuous life: coins from the end of the sixth and the first half of the seventh century AD as well as Roman fibulae.


    One such fortified place is the Castle of Vinica where terracotta tiles are found in connection with early Christianity which are dated to the V-VII century.
    This terracotta tiles are engraved with liturgical texts written in Latin. Such kind of terracotta tiles to date are found in Spain and North Africa only. These tiles are very important and from them we now know that there was a non-Greek people or Latin speakers inhabiting the region of Vinitza in N.Macedonia during the late antiquity and early Medieval period. This find by itself casts doubts about whether the Jirecek line should be taken literally and gives precious material about a non-Greek speaking population living south of the line because Vinitza is located to south of that hypothetical line and was located on the border between the provinces of Macedonia Secunda and Dacia Mediterranea.
    The tiles are somewhat bizarre because they depict details from the early Christianity mixed with pagan figures.
    For example on one terracotta tile there is the Thracian horseman with his right hand raised depicted on it and a Latin inscription:
    EMANUEL (QUOD EST INTERPRETATUM)
    NOBISCUM DEUS SALVU(M ME FAC ET SALVUS ER)O HR(ISTOF)ORO



    The terracotta tile actually represents Christ Emanuel as the coming Christ from the book of the prophet Isaiah but depicts him as the Thracian horseman with his right hand raised which brings him closer to the 'Scythian' type of the Thracian horseman plus it depicts the solar symbols, the moon and the sun.


    Then we have another terracotta tile showing Achilles with a Centaur and a crescent with a clear Latin inscription that writes Achilles:

    The archaeologist Kosta Balabanov thinks that there was some cult of Achilles among the local Thraco-Roman people. We also have the Medieval accounts of some Byzantine authors and chroniclers who wrote in a time when the territory of N.Macedonia was part of the First Bulgarian Empire and later part of the Byzantine theme 'Bulgaria':
    Achilles was described by Leo the Deacon (born ca. 950) not as Hellene, but as Scythian, while according to the Byzantine author John Malalas (c. 491–578), his army was made up of a tribe previously known as Myrmidons and "known now as Bulgars".[2][3] The 12th-century Byzantine poet John Tzetzes also identified the Myrmidons with the Bulgars, whom he also identified with the Paeonians, although the latter may be intended in a purely geographical sense.[4][5]
    The family of Tzar Samuel honored the cult of St.Achilles. St.Achilles was well respected and honored by Tzar Samuel and his family who even transferred his relics from Thessaly to Prespa.


    These accounts of the Byzantine chroniclers and the cult of Achilles among the local Thraco-Roman people tells us that Achilles was well respected and honored as their own hero. In the Greek mythology Achilles's home was Phthia in Thessaly and Phthia was the home of the Myrmidones who as witnessed by the Byzantine accounts were considered of Thracian stock(now called Bulgars) because they were associated with the Bulgars who mixed with and gave the new name to the previous inhabitants of the area.


    Therefore we can be sure that the inhabitants we are dealing with in Medieval Vinitza were Romanized Thracian people.


    This mixing of Christian symbols with Pagan figures and symbols probably means that the preaching of the early Christianity in Macedonia was done with the help of the well known Pagan figures and symbols among the local people helping them to accept Christianity through these earlier Pagan symbols.


    Other interesting terracotta is the one where are written the words 'Bolgar' and 'Sclav' and which depicts a fight between Bulgars and Sclavs:




    According to this terracotta the local Latinophone Thraco-Roman population already knew about the Bolgars and the Sclavs which shouldn't be surprise since these people started raiding and settling in the Balkans since the 6th century AD. What's interesting here is that the terracotta depicts a fight between the Bolgars and the Sclavs. During the time the terracotta was made 7th century AD, the Bolgars of Kuber moved in the western part of N.Macedonia from Pannonia away from Avar rule as per historical accounts together with the Roman population captured by the Avars from earlier raids. Probably this terracotta depicts a conflict between the Bolgars of Kuber and some of the Slavic tribes present in the region of Macedonia to which led Kuber's intention to attack Thessaloniki and after the Byzantine found out probably hired some of the allied Sclavivnia to attack the Bulgars and to expel them. Such Sclavinia might be that of the Dragouvites who were earlier on hired by the Byzantines to help the Bulgars and provid them food as they were the closest neighbors to the Bulgars who settled in the Keramisian plain(Prilep).


    What's interesting is that Mikulcic writes that no archaeological traces of early Slavs in eastern N.Macedonia where Vinica is located are discovered during that period unlike in Greece where many artifacts belonging to the early Slavs are found during the end of the sixth and throughout the seventh century AD. The first traces of Slavic presence on the territory of eastern N.Macedonia start to show up in the 9th century and that coincides with the Bulgar invasion of Macedonia. According to that we can conclude that most of the Slavic people on the territory of N.Macedonia came together with the Bulgar expansion in the 9th century probably as a part of a Bulgar-Slavic alliance. Although there might have been some earlier Slavic tribes already present in the western part of N.Macedonia namely the Berzitae. The region of Central-West N.Macedonia is considered as 'Брсјачки етнографски регион' and is assumed to be in correlation with Berzitia known from Medieval historical accounts, a region that was located in Thessaly and whose archont Akamir made a bunt with the local Hellens against the Byzantine empress Irina in 799 AD. We also hear about Berzitia when the Bulgar ruler Telerig decides to attack this Sclavinia and to transfer it's population in Bulgaria around 774 AD. The problem here is that Mikulcic don't find any Slavic artifacts in the western part of N.Macedonia either and this 'Berzitia' according to the historical accounts was located in Thessaly. As already mentioned, the first Slavic artifacts on the territory of modern N.Macedonia start showing up in the 9th century when the Bulgars conquered the area. Before that period the only artifacts found on the territory of modern N.Macedonia that do not belong to the local Thraco-Roman population are artifacts belonging to tribes such as the Kutrigurs(Bulgars) and are found in the close vicinity of the town Prilep(ancient city of Kerameiai was located in it's vicinity) in the Pelagonian plain. Mikulcic connects these artifacts to the Bulgars of Kuber and the Sermesians who settled in the Pelagonian plain or Keremisia(Campus Kerameensis) as was written in the historical records. Tzar Samuel after conquering Thessaly transferred it's population somewhere in utter Bulgaria according to historical records therefore the population of Berzetia in Thessaly might very well have been transferred in Western N.Macedonia during the reign of Samuel. Coupled that with the historical account that after the migration of the Kuber's Bulgars and Sermesians to North Macedonia and the order of the Byzantines to the Dragouvites who lived in today's Greek Macedonia as a closest Sclavinia to the Bulgars and the Sermesians to provide them with food, we have a clear proves that no Berzitae/Брсјаци lived on the territory of N.Macedonia during that time but the mountainous territory was manly left unsettled by Slavic tribes up to the 9th century and most probably was settled by Eastern Romance speakers leftovers such as those found in Vinitza. These Romance speakers might be the ancestors of later Vlachs recorded on the territory of N.Macedonia such as Dobromir Hrysos who ruled from the fortress of Prosek. That in the same area there were a lot of Romance speakers up to the 16th century we find Turkish accounts such as those of Hadzi Kalfa or Evliya Celebi who wrote that the whole area around Doiran was inhabited by Vlachs(see A.Vacalopoulos, History of Macedonia). These Romance speakers were undoubtedly assimilated into the Bulgarian people among which today's Macedonians of South-East Macedonia trace their ancestry from. Only very few Romance speaking villages up in the mountains preserved the original language and are knows as Meglen Vlachs.


    Meanwhile Professor Mikulcic writes that there is not much attention given to the 9th century wave of Slavic migrants whose migration to Macedonia coincides with the Bulgar invasion of Macedonia during the reign of Presian/Boris. These Slavs that migrated during that period used the Central Balkan Morava-Vardar valley as their path. They also left many toponyms related to Morava and Bohemia which might ultimately mean that these Slavs came from those places. Such toponyms are Morava river in Serbia, Morava mountain west of Korca in Albania but also the area north of Kastoria which was known as Morava or the area north of Thessaloniki which was known as Boimia/Bohemia and there is a town even with the name Boemitza which name was changed in 1928 to Axioupoli. These Slavs used the opening provided with the destruction of the Avar Khaganate at the end of the 8th century to migrate into south-eastern direction. One characteristic for the Central Balkans is the increased ratio of haplogroup I-Y3120 against the R1a unlike the other regions in the Balkans such as in Bulgaria and Greece and thismight have connection with this later wave of Slavs that came in the Balkans during the 8th and the 9th century. The language of these later Slavs might very well be the language taken as a base by St.Cyril and St.Methodius who as we know spread the Old Church Slavonic that was spoken by the Slavs around Thessaloniki. If we know by historical accounts that the Byzantine Emperors before the 8th century largely submitted the Sclavines around Thessaloniki and destroyed them or transferred them in other parts of the Empire then it's not far fetched to think that the Old Church Slavonic was based on the dialect of these later migrating Slavs that came from Bohemia and Moravia.

    In short, the building blocks of the modern Macedonian people are these Romance speakers that lived on the territory of N.Macedonia during the medieval period and the Slavs from the first wave such as V/Berzitae(V/Belegeziti) who might well be the same tribe which name transformed under the phonetic rule of the Slavic liquid metathesis and Slavs from later waves such as those who migrated in the 9th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Actually it became Macedonia with the conquest of the Philip north in the territory of the Paeonians. Since then the territory was effectively Macedonia and that's why when the Romans came they didn't even have doubts how to call the territory of current N.Macedonia. So it remained as such for centuries thereafter, with some minor distinctions such as Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Secunda. Of course, the original Macedonians lived to south of this territory however as I explained already it became effectively Macedonia during their time not during the Romans.
    It became Makedonia after Roman province,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Actually it became Macedonia with the conquest of the Philip north in the territory of the Paeonians. Since then the territory was effectively Macedonia and that's why when the Romans came they didn't even have doubts how to call the territory of current N.Macedonia. So it remained as such for centuries thereafter, with some minor distinctions such as Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Secunda. Of course, the original Macedonians lived to south of this territory however as I explained already it became effectively Macedonia during their time not during the Romans.
    That is completely not correct. The Paeonian area was never named Macedonia under Philip. The Illyrians remained in control in Lychnidos and Paeonians remained where they were. Paeonia did not become Macedonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    That is completely not correct. The Paeonian area was never named Macedonia under Philip. The Illyrians remained in control in Lychnidos and Paeonians remained where they were. Paeonia did not become Macedonia.
    So why the Romans named the territory as 'Macedonia' in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    So why the Romans named the territory as 'Macedonia' in the first place?
    Does it really matter? They included a big part of modern Albania in the region of Macedonia too, as well as a very larg part of the Adriatic coast as Dalmatia.

    it doesn’t mean that the Paeonians were Macedonians, nor that the modern Macedonians share some ancestry with the true Ancient Macedonians.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Does it really matter? They included a big part of modern Albania in the region of Macedonia too, as well as a very larg part of the Adriatic coast as Dalmatia.
    it doesn’t mean that the Paeonians were Macedonians, nor that the modern Macedonians share some ancestry with the true Ancient Macedonians.
    My post has nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians. That has been sorted out also on a state level with the new Prespa agreement.
    All we discuss is the name. And the name Macedonia has been applied to the territory of North Macedonia since long time ago, and this territory has been known as Macedonia for the most of the history than say Paeonia.
    Yes, the Albanian territories were also part of the province of Macedonia during the Roman rule but they were also part of the province of Epirus which was administrative division inside the province of Macedonia, Epirus Vetus and Nova. While most of the territory of North Macedonia was part of Macedonia Salutaris division of the province of Macedonia.
    The ancient Macedonians were a Troyan horse and some dumb idiots in North Macedonia took the bait, making clowns of themselves and doing bad favour to the country.
    I won't discuss whether we have or not ancient Macedonian genes, that's not even that important. What's important is that our identity is strictly regional and connected to the region of Macedonia. Yes, the Bulgarian origin is reality and many of North Macedonia's past revolutionaries and educated people declared themselves ethnic Bulgarians, but also many didn't have Bulgarian ethnic consciousness although speaking Bulgarian related language. These people were mostly divided, with some being pro-Greek, studying in Greek schools, attending Greek churches and even leading Greek guerilla squads against Bulgarian guerilla. So, the ethnic division has been blurry since long time ago and it's not something recent although some uneducated people trying to present it as a recent phenomenon, from the time of Tito.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    My post has nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians. That has been sorted out also on a state level with the new Prespa agreement.
    All we discuss is the name. And the name Macedonia has been applied to the territory of North Macedonia since long time ago, and this territory has been known as Macedonia for the most of the history than say Paeonia.
    Yes, the Albanian territories were also part of the province of Macedonia during the Roman rule but they were also part of the province of Epirus which was administrative division inside the province of Macedonia, Epirus Vetus and Nova. While most of the territory of North Macedonia was part of Macedonia Salutaris division of the province of Macedonia.
    The ancient Macedonians were a Troyan horse and some dumb idiots in North Macedonia took the bait, making clowns of themselves and doing bad favour to the country.
    I won't discuss whether we have or not ancient Macedonian genes, that's not even that important. What's important is that our identity is strictly regional and connected to the region of Macedonia. Yes, the Bulgarian origin is reality and many of North Macedonia's past revolutionaries and educated people declared themselves ethnic Bulgarians, but also many didn't have Bulgarian ethnic consciousness although speaking Bulgarian related language. These people were mostly divided, with some being pro-Greek, studying in Greek schools, attending Greek churches and even leading Greek guerilla squads against Bulgarian guerilla. So, the ethnic division has been blurry since long time ago and it's not something recent although some uneducated people trying to present it as a recent phenomenon, from the time of Tito.
    In that case, yes, I agree with you. I misunderstood what is being discussed.

    In my opinion Macedonian is a regional name too, and you can be Albano-Macedonian, Bulgaro-Macedonian, Greek-Macedonian, Vlacho-Macedonian, Ponto-Macedonian, Serbo-Macedonian, Turko-Macedonian, gypsies, etc.

    Im not sure how the Slavic Macedonians should be called though, but then again if you like to be simply called Macedonian I for one have no problem nor interest in interfering with someone else’s self-identification.

    That area including part of Macedonia that belongs to Greece now had an extensive presence of Vlachs and later Bulgarians which in my opinion are for the most part assimilated Vlachs and Albanians.

    Logically it should be a second Romance speaking country in the Balkans but today’s reality is different as it’s mostly Slavic speaking, but you cannot be called Bulgaria and I suppose many don’t like to be called such anymore, so I guess Macedonian or North-Macedonian it is. Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    My post has nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians. That has been sorted out also on a state level with the new Prespa agreement.
    All we discuss is the name. And the name Macedonia has been applied to the territory of North Macedonia since long time ago, and this territory has been known as Macedonia for the most of the history than say Paeonia.
    Yes, the Albanian territories were also part of the province of Macedonia during the Roman rule but they were also part of the province of Epirus which was administrative division inside the province of Macedonia, Epirus Vetus and Nova. While most of the territory of North Macedonia was part of Macedonia Salutaris division of the province of Macedonia.
    The ancient Macedonians were a Troyan horse and some dumb idiots in North Macedonia took the bait, making clowns of themselves and doing bad favour to the country.
    I won't discuss whether we have or not ancient Macedonian genes, that's not even that important. What's important is that our identity is strictly regional and connected to the region of Macedonia. Yes, the Bulgarian origin is reality and many of North Macedonia's past revolutionaries and educated people declared themselves ethnic Bulgarians, but also many didn't have Bulgarian ethnic consciousness although speaking Bulgarian related language. These people were mostly divided, with some being pro-Greek, studying in Greek schools, attending Greek churches and even leading Greek guerilla squads against Bulgarian guerilla. So, the ethnic division has been blurry since long time ago and it's not something recent although some uneducated people trying to present it as a recent phenomenon, from the time of Tito.

    Be Honest to your shelf,
    The term Makedonia once was given to Phillipoupolis also, even in Serbia once

    the term Makedonia by S Slavs is used after Yugoslav era.

    the creation of S Slavic population as Makedonia started after St Stefan treaty, and the term suggested by Russian ambassadeur of Con/polis, and then by G Dimitrof and 3rd Communis International
    The modern Ethnicity that occured at Krussevo and Skopjia is clear after St Stefan treaty.
    The Bulgarians went and tell them 'You are Bulgarians and Exarchate, you must obey and serve us
    then Serbs went there and told them you are Bulgarians
    then Greeks went and were welcomed at the Begin due to Patrik. but at the end did not manage to unite them
    then Romanians went and tell Vlachs you are Romanians and build Romanian schools
    and Turks as always happy for division.

    and at Krussevo Vlachs started the idea, we are Orthodox and with Patrik, but not Greeks
    at stromnitsa we are Exarchate and Bulgarians
    at Kumanovo we are with Serbian patriarch etc etc
    at Monastetion we are Greeks
    and the Russian ambassadeur at Con/polis suggested the term 'Makedonian -Orthodox'

    and even very late the area was Bardarska Bodovina.
    and after suggestion of Communists and G Dimitrof they organise them to an ethnicity,
    proposing them the lands of Yugoslavia, Greece, and Bulgaria.

    and that Communist manifesto made this modern ethnicity, to claim maximalistic dreams, and act alazonic.

    be honest to your shelves.
    the today N Makedonia, as most Balkan countries, is mosaic of Nationalities,
    and fits all, Serbs, Bulgarians,Greeks, Albanians, Turks, USA, Russia.
    the independent existance of this country, is based on the the keep in balance Balkans.
    and slowly become a nationality the last century, to avoid inner struggle and possible civil disorder.

    It is a modern unification movement, that creates a new nationality.

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    I think the ancient Macedonians assimilated after the Slavic migrations. I believe that there were ancient Macedonians among the people who said they were Macedonians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drsibel View Post
    I think the ancient Macedonians assimilated after the Slavic migrations. I believe that there were ancient Macedonians among the people who said they were Macedonians.
    In my opinion, even People of Greece assimilted with Indo-Europeans. They have very high haplogroup E and ıf the origion of Europeans is pontic steppes, it is not common

    Same as Bulgarian and Macedonia who have pre European haplogroup I

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