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Thread: Macedonians

  1. #151
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    @ marianne

    You have to talk to them in a decent manner even though they don't do the same, it only makes them look bad

    @ dejavu

    If you think Western powers created greece you need to do research on the greek enlightenment that came of the momentum of the french revolution.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment

  2. #152
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    There are 131 countries which makes more than 2/3 of the United Nations that recognize Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name as of 18 January, Bolivia being the last one.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute


    List of countries/entities
    (dark green) that use "Republic of Macedonia" in bilateral diplomatic relations.
    (red) that use "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes.
    (green) whose official position on the issue is unknown.
    (grey) that have no diplomatic relations with the country

  3. #153
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Greece



    The highest number of votes they got was in 1994 with 7,263. Impressive in fact that you claim there are 1 million macedonians in greece.

    the name of the party Rainbow Ουρανιο Τοξο
    SlavoMakedonian minority party
    1 man and 1 cleric
    Votes 7 000 max

    what 1 million you say?
    Do in Skopje they tell you that you are 1 million In Aegean?
    and you Believe them??

    If you were 1 million you would revolt,
    simply 7 000 votes

    and you will tell me that Greeks are fasists Country, thank you

    Another of your Arquements fall in Emptyness

  4. #154
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    Ethnic group
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    ok now lets ask that countries,

    did they accept you as fathers of Alexander?
    Did they accept also your claims?


    I don't think so

    they simply as Greece accept you as an Indipedent Country

    I don't Believe they Accept also your claims

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    How can you have a decent conversation with such a person?
    Elias2 - "You can thank Tito for the brainwashing." - (a 12 year old comment.)
    12 year old comment or blunt truth? I think the latter.

  6. #156
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    Must repost you are avoiding facts AGAIN. NOTICE: Its not Titos Almanac.
    If you are going to continue with lies then it will be more posts and reposts.


    The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!



    1.8% ethnic Macedonians in Greece.
    1.5% Albanians in Greece.
    1.4% Turks in Greece.
    0.9% Pomaks in Greece.
    0.9% Roms (Gypsies) in Greece.
    3.1% Other nationality in Greece.
    90.4% Greeks in Greece.


    Greece does not recognize Macedonian minority in Greece.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece
    And this are the statistics in Wikipedia.
    93.8% Greek,
    4.3% Albanian,
    1.9% others

    1.8% Macedonians in Greece of 11,239 millions total people = more then 200 000 Macedonians.
    (The others are afraid of losing their job by self-determination)

    The Macedonians of Greece speak out! (over 1 million Macedonians in Greece)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnPp5740zXg

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    @ Dejavu

    I'm not avoiding anything, and I comment on everything you say, but you don't comment on my rebuttals. So tell me these things;

    why do you say there are 1 million macedonians in greece when you rainbow party only got 7,000 votes at most in 1994? Considering its a secret ballot process there is no need to fear backlash.

    why did the VMRO (internal macedonian Revolutionary organization) fight for Sofia in the balkan wars? Why did Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader call himself Bulgarian?

    If there is a different ethnic macedonian people apart from Bulgaria, why do Macdonians group so closely with bulgarians in DNA studies?

    Why are you so adament about not comprimising with Greece over the name dispute?

    If you don't answer these questions is just goes to show you are just another ultra-nationalist.

  8. #158
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    The Bulgarian or was he Macedonian?


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    "The political and military leaders of the slavs of macedonia at teh turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as bulgarians rather than macedonians. The political goals of the internal macedonian Revolutionary organization (VMRO) were the liberation of macedonia from the Ottoman Empire, and the establishment of an autonomous Macedonia, but VMRO's leadership was challenged by the formation of the supreme macedonian comittee in Sofia, whose ultimate foal was the annexation of macedonian by Bulgaria. Inspite of these political differences, both groups, including those who advocated an independent macedonian state and opposed the idea of a greater bulgaria, never seem to have doubted "the predominantly bulgarian character of the population of Macedonia". Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de guerre was Ahil (achilles), refers to "the slavs of macadonia as 'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention". In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply "we are bulgarians".

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    Repost again you dont care about reading only care for questions.


    It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.

    The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.
    Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
    The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.
    Yet the term "Macedonian Slavs" is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves "Macedonians Slavs", but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show.
    according to the neutral authors also aligns with the numbers given by the Serb and Bulgarian authors. This is a proof that the Greeks before the partition of Macedonia, were indeed a small minority, only 10% from the total population. This fact certainly does not give them the copyright of the name Macedonia. Dr. Ostreich, Gersin, and Roussos, are only a few of the many neutral authors to prove the groundless speculations of the Balkan counties. They proved that Macedonia belongs to a separate nation, which proves that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have than simply substituted the numbers of the Macedonians for theirs. Another Austrian, Karl Hron explained why that is unjustified:
    "According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..." and:
    "... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language".
    There were even Greek and Bulgarian writers to support what Karl Hron has written. One such example is the Bulgarian slavist and ethnographer P. Draganov, who in his studies of 1887-1894 and 1903, proved the existence of the Macedonians and the Macedonian language as a distinct language.
    At the time of the emergence of the so-called Macedonian question, and the aspirations of the Macedonian neighbors for occupation of the country, the famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875:
    "People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,
    "I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"
    Pulevski was right back in 1875. He was proud Macedonian of his ancient heritage, conscious, and aware that the Macedonians were a distinct nation, a fact that the documents of the last 25 centuries clearly show.

    The usage of Macedonian and Macedonia separate from Greek or Bulgarian and Greece or Bulgaria is more than obvious. Also these sources are objective, old and clear, and do not offer any further interpretation; that is how they prove the existence of the Macedonians as a Nation with this name in this region, separate from the Greeks and Bulgarians in many ways. The fact that old documents call these people Macedonians shows that the Macedonians aren't an artificial creation, but a nation with a homeland and a name-Macedonia and Macedonians.
    For shorter and better review of the use and meaning of the term "Bulgarian" starting from the 10th century and especially during the Turkish domination of the Balkans will consider several referential examples that testify against Bulgarian Nationalist doctrine.

    According to the Bulgarian historiography all mentions,and very often wrong, with this name which is for her a fateful moment, that this is them - Bulgarians.

    “Bulgarian elite had to invent, elaborate and underpin a myth of common ancestry and made this pedigree putative for the sense of ethnic identification.”
    - (Smith, Anthony. "National Identity" published in London 1991, p. 22)

    A.Todorov-Balan in his "One Macedonian theory”, book 9-10, Sofia, 1905, 818, states that in the XIX century the Balkan peoples,called the Russian czar -" Bulgarian Tsar "and the Serbian and Russian language - "Bulgarian".

    The term "Bulgarian” during the Ottoman rule denoted – a peasant farmer.

    While the "Grecian" denoted a person of higher class or merchant.

    "During the Ottoman period, therefore, terms like 'Greek' or 'Bulgarian' were not used to designate different ethnic or national groups, but rather broad socio-cultural categories" (Danforth 1995:59)
    - (Mirca Madianou , “Mediating the Nation“, p. 30, is Lecturer and Director of Studies in Social and Political Sciences, Lucy Cavendish College, University of Cambridge)

    "The term "Bulgarian," which had earlier been used to refer to all the Slavs of the Ottoman Empire (Friedman 1975:84), or as a virtual synonym for "peasant" without any political significance at all came to mean "Bulgarian" in a national sense. "(Wilkinson 1951:149),
    - (Loring M. Danforth „The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World Princeton University Press, 1997, p. 59)

    For example, in Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria, class and ethnicity overlapped, resulting in the utilization of the terms “Serb” and “Bulgar” to denote the peasantry per se. Since most peasants were Slavs and most Slavs were peasants, class distinctions often became ethnic distinctions ( Slijepcevic 1958, 82-96; Kofos 1964; Vermulen 1984; Shashko 1973).
    When the Slavs moved into the urban world or became members of the middle classes, they generally shifted their identity to Greek. In Belgrade, for example, Serbian townsmen dressed in the Greek style, the Belgrade newspapers included the rubric Greciia (Greece), and the local Christian “higher strata” were Grecophone until 1840 – according to Stoianovich 1994, 294; and Karanovich 1995, 31.
    In Southern Albania and Greece during the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, thousands of Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs became completely Hellenized ( Skendi 1980, 187-204)”.
    - (Victor Roudometof “Nationalism,Orthodoxy, and Globalization”p. 48)


    We are witnesses of the phenomenon of “ethnicization” of the religious, social or occupational groups in Balkans, very often these groups were denoted by the names of ethnic communities and they used these names to denote themselves as well.

    The term "Grecian" could mean "an Orthodox Christian," but also "reseller" or generally "well situated" citizen. in the same way, "Turk" most marked "Muslim" and "Bulgarian" was a highlight, "villager", with or without an offensive meaning. "Vlach" and marked "shepherd" or "nomads" in general. "Albanian" (arnautin) could be applied to a man from each ethnic group who performed certain military tasks
    The term “Grecian” could mean “Orthodox Christian” but also a “city dweller” or gennerally “well to do citizen”. In the same way,”Turk” often meant “Muslim”, with “Bulgarian” to denote a “villager”, with ot without pejorative connotation. “Vlach” could mean “shepherd” or “nomad” in general.”Albanian” (arnautin) could apply to a person of any ethnic origin performing specific military tasks
    - (Dēmētrēs Tziovas , „Greece and the Balkans“ p. 43)


    According the references of Prof. Keith Brown, “Turk” implied official persona – functionary, “Grecian” meant – merchant, “Bulgarian” – villager, farmer and “Vlach” – shepherd, rancher.
    “When the Macedonian peasants use the term Bulgar, they mean by it: 1) people of a simple and hard-working life, 2) the bulk of simple labourers who speak Slavic, in contrast to the non-Slavs, the Greeks and the Turks, who are above this majority and consider them inferior. The first meaning is the main one: the word “Bulgar” denotes in the first case a simple mode of life, work and thought.”
    - (Keith Brown, „The Past in Question, modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation“, p. 59)

    Habsburg authorities in Transylvania, tended to call all members of Orthodox merchant companies “Greeks”, irrespective thet they included not only Slavs, Romanians, and Christian Albanians, but also a sprinkle of Armenians and Jews. Western travelers in Macedonia, quickly realized that the term “Bulgarian” was locally used to describe poor Slav peasants.
    - (Katerina Zacharia и Dimitris Livianos „ Hellenisms: culture, identity, and ethnicity from antiquity to modernity“, p. 249)

    “In Macedonia, as late as the early twentieth century, both “Greeks” and “Bulgarian: denoted professions, the later often being applied to poor, Slavic-speaking, Orthodoc Christian peasants, shepherds, or laborers of lower social status to whom were ascribed a “peasant” culture.”
    - ( Peter Mackridge, „Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766 – 1976“)

    Trajan Stojanović in his book "Balkan Worlds: The First and Last Europe", p.143 again underlines that the term "Bulgarians" were called the farmers and with "Vlachs" the shepherds.

    The Bulgarian member of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences Vasil Drumev wrote: "And we've began to learn Greek, to speak in Greek, to call ourselves Greeks. And there is still among us respected Bulgarians, who are grecoficating, who speak .. in Greek, who hate the Bulgarians.”

    K. Irachek in - "History of Bulgarians”, Sofia, 1929, 385-386, says that the citizens for the simple, uneducated provincials (peasants) always used the name - "Bulgarians" by adding the obligatory – thick headed, *****, stumps and other abusive words.

    The Traveler Sir John Mandeville, in1357 travelling throught Balkans wrote that Serbia is land of Bougiers, while Blegrade in that time was known by the name “Alba Graeca” and “Alba Bulgarica”.

    Simeon Lehaci in his journey memories wrote that all the people in Bosnia speaks in "Bulgarian", and they were "Greeks" in religion.


    All peasants were Macedonians; shepherds were Vlachs; merchants and bureaucrats were Greeks; and the high administrators were Muslims.”- (“Minorities and mother country imagery” By Gerald L. Gold, Memorial University of Newfoundland. Institute of Social and Economic Research, p. 60.)

    Prof. Stilpon Kyriakidis in the “Northern ethnological frontiers of Hellenism ", on p.39:
    "While at the time of Simeon did not cease to differ Dragovites from Strumianites and generally Sclavinians from Bulgarians, since Samuel the name of Sclavinias completely disappeared, and all Macedonian Slavs are called Bulgarians by the Byzantines and the country that Samuel ruled, that is western and northern Macedonia is called Bulgaria. In this way, we ourselves gave the name Bulgarian to everyone that speaks Slavic ".

    The propaganda consisted of introducing among the common Slavic people the world “Bolgar”, as a synonym for “Slavonic Christian”; As this propaganda was so strong, really the word “Bolgar” became a synonym for “Christian that speak Slavonic” in the 19 Cent., but not and nationality.
    When bulgarian peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox (Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818)

    Another indisputable proof that the “Bulgarian” at that time meant Slav, and then "Bulgarians" thought of themselves as pure Slavs, the same people with the Serbs and the Macedonians and Illyrians (Croats, Slovenes and Montenegrins) presents "The History of Bulgarian people " by Fr. Spiridon of Gabrovo, which in its short history says:

    "Bolgarians came into rule in Thrace, Macedonia, Dalmatia, White Sea and the Rome... Illyrians (Serbs and Croats, my note) are called Bolgarians... and from Bolgarians originated the Serbs, and when Alexander took the whole Ilyrian army to conquer of the world ... since then Bolgarians began to call themselves Macedonians and Slavs "
    - (Spyridon Yeroschimonach, History in short of Bolgarian Slav nation 1792, tran. B. Hristova, prof. Raikov B., BAK at NB “Ss.Cyril and Methodius ", and" GAL-ICO, Sofia, 1992)

    Jordan Hadzhikonstantinov - Dzinot, tells that for him the term Bulgarians means Slavs, so in his "Legend of Thessaloniki," published in 1859 says St. Cyril and Methodius, the apostles of all Bulgarians (Slavs), and in Bulgarians includes the Moravians from Great Moravia and Pannonia (Glasnik drustva srpske slovenosti, VIII, p. 146-147)

    Krste Petkov Misirkov explains the concept “Bulgarian”: "The Greeks also did not differ the Slavic nations and all Slavs ... called with the despised name "Bulgarians"
    ... The Greeks used the name Bulgarian to incarnate in him their contempt for everything Slavic. .. With the name Bulgarians, we Macedonians were christen by the Greeks,as well. But this re-christening was not the only one... “ (Krste Petkov Misirkov "On Macedonian Matters" Preface, Sofia, Printing House of the Liberal Club, 1903).

    For Mr. Gennady, Metropolitan of Veles in 19th century ( born in the village Podkozhene, Podgradec) the concept “Bulgarian” is the same with the term Slavs, and he wrote that the Czechs and Slovakians are Bulgarians: “ of Bohemia and Moravia they are all Slavs, pure Bulgarians, our brothers” (Source: Simeon Radev “ Early memories”, titled “Meeting of four Bulgarian bishops” new, revised and expanded edition, edited by Trajan Radev, publishing house “Strelec”, Sofia, 1994)

    Macedonian teacher Nikola Pop-Philipov, says that "Bulgarian" language is a general Balkan language (newspaper "Macedonia" Constantinople, April 6, 1868), referring to the Slavic language.

    Grigor Prlicev writes in his autobiography: “... the Bulgarian alphabet only to three was known and was called Serbian..” (Grigor Prlicev, Autobigraphy). For him and the Serbians were Bulgarians i.e. Slavs; at that time, only Serbs had reformed and codified Slavic alphabet, and because of it Prlicev says that the Bulgarian (Slavonic) alphabet was called Serbian.

    The famous Macedonian textbook writer Dimitar Macedonian sees its people as ancient Macedonians, and in one of his article writes that the ancient Macedonians are not swallowed by the earth, but are pure Slavs: "... Macedonians are not Vlachs or some other nation, but pure Bulgarians (thinking of Slavs) ... therefore you’ll learn that the Macedonians are not lost from the face of the earth, as some allow to say, because, as far as we know, they did not done anything so bad, what should open the earth to swallow them. "(see Makedonia of 16/02/1871).

    In its “Brief holy history for the schools in Macedonia (in Macedonian dialect) printed in “ The printing of Macedonia”, Constantinople in 1867, writes:
    Q.[Question] Who are those Bulgarians(Slavs), who were baptized in the early first century after Christ’s birth?
    A.[Answer] They are Bulgarians who live in Macedonia
    Q. From whom are they baptized?
    A. The Apostle Paul, who first preached at Philippi and Thessaloniki

    It becomes obvious that under the umbrella of the term "Bulgarians" also enter the ancient Macedonians, who were first baptized by the Apostle Paul, whole 5 centuries before the ethnic name "Bulgarians" to appear on the Balkans at all and generally European geographic regions.

    Next reference is the book of Mark Mazower “Salonica City of Ghosts” p.249, who writes about the visit of Sir Henry Layards of Thessaloniki, and here’s what he means under these terms:
    To be a “Greek” meant to be a “Orthodox Christian” while under the term “Bulgarian” was held to be one of reproach and contempt.

    Not last confirmation, but sufficient for completion of this reference overview of the meaning of these terms, according to the book of Nace Dimov “Historical line of Macedonia and Macedonian Slavs” Chapter first p.13-15, from 1913:

    ”Therefore, in Macedonia there was such a position that the same Macedonian nation was called Grecian, Serbian and Bulgarian, just because one recognizes the Greek patriarch and pray in Greek churches, and another goes into a Slavic church. In each the same towns and villages the priests that receive a salary of Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those receiving the salary from the Serbian Diocese called themselves Serb and Macedonian Slav population that goes into one or another school or church calling itself Grecian, Serb or Bulgarian

    From all that I expressed I can say that the Macedonians have a hundred percent right to autonomy and not be subjected to fragmentation among Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians. Regardless of that the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian government, for extending their boundaries on Macedonian territory, without saving money and exterminating the Macedonians who do not want to call themselves Greek, Serb and Bulgarian and those who do not know how to speak Serbian and Greek.”

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    Vlachs = Roumans = Modern Greeks

    "It is an unpleasant duty to have to tell one's friends home truths, but the Greek claim to Macedonia, at least as regards the greater part of the interior of the country, is a dream. In some of the towns there is a fair Greek population, but even in that case, as in Monastir, for example, the STATISTICS REST ON AN ARTIFICIAL BASIS. The truth is that a LARGE NUMBER of those described as Greeks are REALLY ROUMANS. Till within recent years Hellenism found a fertile field for propaganda among the representatives of the gifted Romance-speaking race of the Pindus region. Today JANINA HAS QUITE FORGOTTEN ITS ROUMAN ORIGIN, and has become a center of Hellenism. Athens, the nearest civilized center, offered natural attractions to the quick-witted mercantile element in the towns. But, for good is expended by Greek committees in the endeavor to gain recruits for Greek nationality. Parents are actually paid to send their children to the Greek schools." - Sir Arthur Evans, 1903.

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    Your biggest fault is that you are calling all your neighbours fake while "macedonians" (bulgarians) are the only true people in the balkans. This is why FYROM will change its name, because of people like you and your mentality. ;)

  13. #163
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Greece



    Dejavu you lost all your arquements

    1 Ancient Makedonians were Greeks
    2 Medieval Makedonians were Greeks

    3 There is no slavo-Makedonian Minority in Greece
    (7000 votes to 2 000 000 Greek Makedonian)

    4 Your alphabet and your language is cyrillic and Bulgarian Dialect

    5 all countries among them Greece accept your indepedence but not your claims

    6 we were we are and will be here to say who the True Makedonian is

    7 by claiming name and land you win only enemies in area, its pitty, cause even Bulgarians dont want you any more


    you even make enemies your own people the Bulgarians

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIkXbuY6Hag

    all you create is hate, and you posses land that belongs to Albania


    keep that way, a lie can't help you make friends

    watch that carefully
    its your President of Democracy Gligorov admiting that you are slavs, SlavoMakedonians

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnUxYp6eDek



    Even Gotse Deltchev,the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader,whose nome de guerre was Ahil (Achilles) "refers to the Slavs of Macedonia as 'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).In his correspondence Gotse Deltchev often states simple and clearly,"We are Bulgarians" (Mac Dermott 1978:192,273).

    go ahead DejaVu make your pray
    Svetitelot Tito
    Hvala Tito za stoca ..... i imeto ........
    
    Dejavu right now i am going to drink a suvo vino od tikves
    Grenaz Bel and shine my kalashnikov

    if you want tell me to send a good Naousa or a Georgiadi or an Agioritiko (mount Athos) bottle of wine
    best quality all
    just ask me i will
    besides as a trully balkan I make my own raki, want some of that?

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    Greeks are christian Turks.

    1. Macedonians were always Macedonians.
    2. Medieval Macedonians were Macedonians.
    3. There is no slavo-macedonian minority only ethnic Macedonians.
    4. The language is Macedonian and made by Macedonians.
    5. Macedonians dont care what other think they know what they are and that is Macedonians are Macedonians and Macedonia is Macedonia.
    6. Greeks are christian Turks.
    7. Greek language is mixed turkish language.

    You lost all claims I posted the evidence you failed like the other fake Greeks.
    Be proud of what you are christian Turk.


    It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.
    The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.

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    Considering the invading turks were muslims, and in islam it calls for the death penalty if you leave their "religion", I don't think your claims make sence ;)

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    Bulgars were Huns (Balkars)
    they dissapear but they left the idea of an autonomus state
    war with byzantine never stoped that movement of indipedence

    Thracian people of the north and west accept a small serbianism, and create a new accent to slavonization more,
    but words like bol (bull) is ancient Tyrrrshenian
    ancient Greeks use the word tauros in south and Volinthros (Bολινθρος) in areas were Tyrrshenian were spoken
    in koine became βους -vous bous and vous is the same with bo and bol
    find out how may other words you have
    in a disgussion with a Thracologist in bulgaria we found 1300 words in Greek and 2200 in bulgarian language that are Tyrsshenian origin, even serbian and albanian have Tyrrshenian enough, also Daco-Romanian.
    find them and don't listen to any stupid propaganda,
    modern Bulgarians soon wiil claim that they are slavonized Thracians.
    and the same for you the Makedonia dream is at its end
    soon both countries they will reclaim Thracian ancestors.

    find Hesychius of Alexandria Lexicon,
    it has ancient Makedonian words,
    there you will learn the Language of Alexander.

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    As a start let us look at the name of Macedonia.

    Modern Greece constantly turns to ancient Greek mythology to justify their theory. According to one source, the land was named Macedonia after Macedon, the son of Zeus and Thia; a second version claims that the name was derived from Macedon, one of the ten sons of the god Aeolus; a third version says that Macedon was the son of someone called Likaon, and according to a fourth one, Macedon was the son of the Egyptian god Osiris. Which of these four versions can we trust? Ulrich Wilken, a German historian, states that the Greek adherence to old myths is an attempt to justify their present views, i.e. lacking proofs of the Greek thesis, they resort to mythology, legends and tradition.

    Furthermore, since the Greek people do not really believe in the mythical origin of the name of Macedonia, a new explanation is being forced; namely that the root of the name, mak- is of Doric origin and means 'long' or 'tall' and its derivatives, Makednos or Makedanos, mean 'tall people'. These interpretation have been attributed to Herodotus, the Father of History, as Greek scholars call him. The aim here is to link the Macedonian with the Dorian people, the latter being claimed to be one of the Macedonian tribes. However, when it comes to proving the Doric origin of the Macedonians, or vice versa, Herodotus has no arguments to offer and therefore turns to traditions. This view is also supported by Prof D. Pantermalis, an archeologist, who wrote the following in the Greek newspaper Neos kosmos of 14th November 1988, published in Melbourne, Australia: "We have mentioned earlier a tradition which claims the Dorians to have been descended from the Makedons or Makednos. Herodotus must have come by this information either through evidence he himself had collected in some of the Doric towns or through the story of an ancient epic by Aegimius..."

    Furthermore, Prof. D. Pantermalis also gave an interview published in Neos kosmos of 28th February 1991. Asked why foreign scholars were reserved over the question, the archeologist answered: "There are certain matters which require further clarification, and unfortunately certain interpretations in the past well as today have been wrongly based on such unclarified matters. Thus, for example, ancient texts often speak about the Macedonians and the Greeks, as two separate nations and we ought to differentiate between them. I would also add a more recent example: we speak of the Greeks and the Cypriots." Needless to say, this is only a superficial example, since, when we speak a Macedonian we do not mean a Greek from Macedonia, but one descended from Macedonia by origin and by nationality.

    The Greek historian, D. Kanatsulis, disagrees with the interpretations given by Prof. Pantermalis. In his History of Macedonia until Constantine the Great published in Salonica in 1964, on page 67 D. Kanatsulis writes that the Dorian and the Macedonian were two different peoples, although both appear on territory of Macedonia at almost the same time. On page 12 of this publication we read: "On the descent of the Illyrians and some other peoples in the 12th and 11th centuries BC, the Dorians were forced to move further south and majority of them settled on the Pelloponnesos whereas the Macedonians stayed in Western Macedonia."
    D. Kanatsulis emphasizes that the Macedonians had a strong feeling of constituting a separate ethnic group not only during the time of the independent Macedonian state, but also during the Roman era. "The Macedonians," he says, were primarily citizens of the state and only after that members of the municipality where they were born or where they lived. Thus, in the official documents in which all names were entered, the personal name was followed by the nationality - Macedonian, and then came the birthplace or the place of residence, for example: a Macedonian from Aegea, a Macedonian from Edessa, etc." (page 82).

    Similarly ancient Macedonian historians and writers, though writing in the common language (a blend of ancient Greek and the local Macedonian when signing their names always added that they were Macedonian language); as, for example: Chrisogonis from Edessa, a Macedonian; Adaios the Macedonian; Antipatris the Macedonian. (Prof Photis Petsas: A Journey in Northern Greece, Elinikos voras, February 1976). Not one of them wrote that he was a Hellene.
    Now, back to the name of Macedonia. Looking at Ilios, a Greek encyclopedia periodical, on page 801 we find the chapter entitled 'The History of Macedonia'. Its third Paragraph begins with the words: "The Macedonians or Macedons inhabited this territory and called it Macedonia...," which confirms that before the arrival of the Macedonians the territory had had other names (Imatia, Aeordea, Almopia and perhaps others) and that the Macedonian newcomers named it Macedonia. Another archeologist, Prof Photis Petsas, gives even a more detailed account: "Macedonia was so named after the Macedonian People in the year 700 BC, who used to inhabit the territory to the west of the Vermion Mountains. What interests us today;" says Prof Petsas, "is that the Macedonians gave their own name to the land, calling it Macedonia, and expanded it in the south to Mount Olympus, in the west to the Pindus Mountain, in the east to the river Nestos (the Mesta) and to the Erigon in the north." (Prof Photis Petsas: Macedonia and the Macedonians..., Elinikos voras, 12th February 1978).

    The ancient Greek man of letters, Isocrates, claims that there were no grounds for the identification of Ancient Macedonia with Ancient Greece, nor the Ancient Macedonians with the Ancient Greeks. In his book Filip (pp l07-108), Isocrates places Macedonia outside the boundaries of Greece and considers the Macedonians non-Greek tribesmen. Both ancient and contemporary geographers and historians, such as Eforos, Pseudoskilaks, Dionisios Kalifondas, Dikearhos, Athineos and others, state that the northern boundaries of Greece begin at the Amvrakis Bay in the west and go to the Peneos River in the east (Makedonia, an anthology, Athens, 1982, p.50). In this connection, the modern Greek scholar J. Kaleris writes: "In the middle of the 5th century BC, the name Macedonia was given to the land spreading from Lake Lychnida in the west, the Strymon River in the east and to the Erigon and Vardar Rivers in the north (The Language of the Macedonians, an anthology, Athens, 1992). According to historians and geographers mentioned above, the territories north of a line Amvrakis Bay to the River Peneos were inhabited by the Macedonian people (same Anthology, p. 122). The ancient geographer, Ptolemy, gives an even more precise description of the boundaries of Macedonia, saying that in the north they reached the Sar (Skardos) Mountains, in the north-east the Pirin (Orbilos) Mountains and in the south the Peneos River.
    If these are the recognized boundaries of Macedonia, then how could that encompassed by the Mountains of Kajmakcalan, Kozuf, Belasica and Sar be denied the name Macedonia, even though, under the Treaty of Bucharest, a part of Macedonia was allotted to Greece? Referring to this problem, the Honorary President of the Communist Party of Greece, Harilaos Florianis, says in an interview: "Are we trying to say that 39% of the geographical territory of Macedonia is 'Skopje'? Isn't that, in fact, a section of the territory of Macedonia?" (Rizospastis, 2nd September, 1992).

    Certain Greek scholars lacking a critical eye and disregarding historical arguments, consider the ancient Macedonians as Greeks and their language a Greek dialect. However, anyone looking at the facts with an open mind will realize that this is far from being true. Authentic evidence shows that the ancient Greeks regarded the Macedonian people as barbarians and Macedonia a barbaric land. This is also what the two coryphaei of Greek history, Thucydides and Demosthenes thought of ancient Macedonians. As a matter of fact, the ancient Greeks considered all non-Greek people barbarian and their land barbaric. Thus in his third Philippic, Demosthenes states: "Ay, and you know this also, that the wrongs which the Greeks suffered from the Lacedaemonians or from us, they suffered at all events at the hands of true-born sons of Greece, and they might have been regarded as the acts of a legitimate son, born to great possessions, who should be guilty of some fault or error in the management of his estate: so far he would deserve blame and reproach, yet it could not be said that it was not one of the blood, not the lawful heir who was acting thus. But if some slave or superstitious bastard had wasted and squandered what he had no right to, heavens! How much more monstrous and exasperating all would have called it! Yet they have no such qualms about Philip and his present conduct, though he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave ..." (Demosthene Crationes, IX, p.26, and Istorija diplomatije, vol.1, p.49).
    Further evidence that the Macedonians were not Hellenes can be of the Manifesto of Polyperchon, regent to the Macedonian throne and envoy to the Greek city-states in the year 319 BC, where we read: "Our ancestors [meaning the Macedonians - author's note) were always kind to the Hellenes and intend to continue their good ways and give proof of our goodwill towards the Greek people." (Istorija diplomatije, p. 53, reference taken from Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheka historika, XVIII, p. 55).

    The modern Greek scholar, Karagatsis, makes his contribution to the clarification of the question whether the ancient Macedonians were Greek or not. The master work of this respected author, History of the Greek People, 1952, raised a great commotion in the camp of the nationalistically oriented intellectuals of Greece. Karagatsis, however, disregarded the burden of tradition and mythology and claimed that reality was different (p. 314). "It is the King of the Macedonians," he says, "who is the hegemon of the Greeks. The Congress is summoned by the hegemon, but is never chaired by him, because the hegemon is not Greek." (p. 340).
    Many circles in Greece turned against Karagatsis. Thus Stefanos Hrisos, a critic, states the following in his article in the Salonica newspaper Makedonia: "I believe that it is a moral obligation of every Greek, particularly those in Northern Greece, to raise his voice and demand that this book by Karagatsis should not leave the boundaries of Greece or be translated into other languages, and, if possible, be withdrawn from the shops. We might have expected such bad language from our neighbors but never from a Greek writer..."
    Last year, during the heavy Greek-wide campaign against the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia, a collection entitled The Language of the Macedonians was published, which comprised contributions by distinguished university professors, the purpose of which was to boost the Greek thesis that the ancient Macedonians were Greek people and spoke the Greek language.

    However, even in such a publication one finds concessions that the Macedonians in fact spoke a language different from the Greek.
    Ana Panaiotou, for example, in the article 'The Language of Captions in Macedonia', says that "the Macedonians communicated among themselves in the Koine (common) language; the use of the Macedonian dialect was shrinking and became limited to conversations within a family or within small tribal circles. The last extant records on the Macedonian dialect," Panaiotou continues, "date from the first century BC" This author also informs us that the oldest facts on the Macedonian language date from the fifth century BC With the arrival of Alexander the Great that language stopped being the means of communication. "People used this language," Panaiotou says, "at moments of anger or great excitement and when only Macedonians were present" (p. 187). To support her statement, Ana Panaiotou turns to Plutarch, who claims that while killing Cleitus, at a moment of great distress, Alexander the Great "cried out in the Macedonian language" (Plutarch, Vii parallili, chapter 'Alexander the Great' - eighth installment in the periodical Ilios, 20th March 1954).
    Ana Panaiotou also draws attention to the example of Eumenes, an officer in Alexander's army. He himself was not Macedonian, but once, after an illness, when walking among his Macedonian soldiers, he greeted them in the Macedonian language. She also mentions that Queen Cleopatra had lessons in Macedonian. In the same collected edition, Prof. J. Kaleris says that "the Macedonian language was often used with the purpose of winning the trust of the Macedonian people." In the periodical Mesiniaka, J. Kordatos, a historian and sociologist, undeniably declares that the ancient Macedonians spoke a language different from Greek.

    Blinded by their fanaticism, the Greek nationalists categorically deny the Macedonians of today the right to bear that name; instead, they suggest names like Dardanians, Sclavins and the like. when the ancient Macedonian people arrived on the Balkan Peninsula, according to accepted sources, they retained their old name. This, however, was not the case with the modern Macedonians; when they settled in Macedonia in the 5th and 6th centuries AD, they still bore their tribal names - Sagudats, Rinhins, Smolyans, Brsyaks, etc. Gradually and spontaneously, these tribes took on the name of the region they had inhabited or, perhaps, of the people living there, who began to become assimilated with the newcomer Slavs, Pechenese, Kumans and others. Many Byzantine chronicle writers, such as Georgios Monahos, Leon the Dean, Ivan the Geometrician, Ana Comnena and Georgios Kedrinos mention the Macedo-nian Slavs. Even Emperor Constantine himself writes about the Macedonian people (Makedones); Leon the Dean refers to them as the ton Makedonon; Nikiforos Vrionos speaks of one Vasilios Kurtina as the anir Makedon; Ana Comnena says that someone called Tornik is a Makedon, etc. (Stjepan Antoljak, Samoilovata drzava, Skopje, 1969, pp 78-80).

    Despite the frequent conquests first by Byzantium, then by the Bulgar and the Serb Kingdoms and finally by the Ottoman Empire, the name Macedonian persisted in use. Thus the European traveler Bertrand de la Brokier wrote in 1432 that the Macedonian people were the predominant population of Macedonia, differentiating them from the Greeks, the Bulgars and the Serbs (Jordan Ivanov; Bqlgarite v Makedonia, Sofia 1917, pp. 109-110). Similarly, the Venetian marine officer, Angiolello, who traveled via Macedonia on his way to Constantinople, regarded the Macedonians as different from the Greek people. In his diary Angiolello wrote: "On 14th August, the Great Master dropped anchor off the coast of Mount Athos, a mountain on which there are many monasteries and Christian monks, some of them Greek, others Macedonian or Vlach." He, then, goes on to say: "Both Greek and Macedonian people live there..." (K Merdzhios, Mnimia makedonikis istorias). Furthermore, the Regulations and the Constitution of the Razlog and the Kresna Uprisings in 1876 and 1878, as well as the documents of the interim government of Macedonia of 1880, clearly define the nationality of the Macedonian people. Terms like Macedonian Uprising, Macedonian army, Macedonian people leave no doubt as to the national denomination of the Macedonian people.

    Greece manifested territorial aspirations towards Macedonia soon after it became an independent state. Various societies, such as the Association for the Promotion of Greek Literacy and, later, the armed gangs operating in Macedonia and fighting the so-called Macedonian war, had a sole purpose of converting the Macedonian population into Greek and if reeducation did not produce the expected results, they resorted to using arms. In this connection, Joannis Kordatos has written the following: "Bulgaria and Greece, as well as Serbia, sent soldiers to Macedonia in order to change the national affinity of the local population..."
    "A large percentage of the farmers in Macedonia," Kordatos continues, "spoke a Slavonic dialect, using a lot of Greek and Turkish words; however, the essence of the dialect was Slavonic. The Slavo-Macedonian dialect was the dominant language in many areas in Macedonia. In a survey which Blunt, the British consul in Salonica, conducted in 1888 and printed in the following year in the English Blue Book, we find that the Greeks constituted the majority in the coastal belt, in Ber, Lagadin, Ser and Zihnen. But the inland areas of Macedonia were inhabited by Slavophones..."
    "The wide masses of Macedonia," says Kordatos, "were oppressed not only by the pashas, beys and agas, but also by the local rich people and the Greek high church officials. Therefore, the majority of the Slavophone Macedonians decided to rise against the Turkish tyranny and the injustice of the Metropolitans, and in an autonomous and independent Macedonia to build political and national equality..." (loannis Kordatos, Istoria tis neas Ellados, vol.5, Athens 1955, pp. 41A2).

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    In the period between the two Wars the only hope the Macedonian people in Greece had for the preservation of their national identity and for the realization of their basic national rights as a minority came from the Greek Communist Party. Between 1924 and 1935, the latter supported the idea of self-determination of the Macedonian people in Greece as well as for the independence and unity of Macedonia and Thrace, which later changed into a demand for "national equality for the minorities within the Greek state".

    Speaking in favor of the demands of the Macedonian people in Greece, the leader of the parliamentary group of the Communist Party, Stelios Sklavenas, declared at the Parliamentary sitting of 25th April 1936: "Another problem which the Government keeps ignoring in its declarations is the question of giving the minorities in Greece rights equal to those of the native Greek population. This refers in the first place to the Macedonian people. Anyone who has traveled through Macedonia must have felt the specific pressure exerted on the Macedonians. They have been strictly forbidden to have their own schools, speak their own language or practice their own customs. As a result, the people are getting organized and ready to fight for their rights, in which we can't but support them.

    The winning countries in the Great War and the League of Nations sanctioned the right for the self-determination of oppressed nations. And we also grant this right to the Macedonian people...
    General Metaxas established his dictatorship on 4th August 1936. One of the first things he did was to retaliate against deputy Stelios Sklavenas for his speech in Parliament in support of the Macedonian cause, by sending him to the dungeons of Manyadakis, chief of the Security police, where he was virtually subjected to inquisition.

    As a conclusion to what has so far been said about the Greek denial of the admission of the Republic of Macedonia into the international institutions, the Greek claim to the exclusive right to the name of Macedonia and their non-recognition of the Macedonian minority in Greece, we would like to draw the attention of the reader to the visionary ideas and words of the former leader of the Left Liberals in Greece, Ioannis Sofianopoulos. As early as 1927, when the Greek Parliament debated minority rights in the country; this man of virtue anticipated future events.

    "By what means can we tame the spirits and eradicate the hatred?" he wonders and then adds: "There are three essential elements. a real protection of the minorities, which would forbid any forced emigration, education of the new generation in schools, and good traffic connections with all Balkan countries... Everybody should understand," Sofianopoulos concludes, "that we cannot endlessly change the family name suffixes -opoulos into -opovich, then into -opov, or in the reverse direction, and that the mind should be free and the will of the individual fully respected." (Ioannis Sofianopoulos, Pos ida tin Valkaniki, Athens 1927, p.204). Translated by Mirka Mishich

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berziti
    The Berziti (Bulgarian, Macedonian, Serbian: Берзити) were a South Slavic tribe that settled in Byzantine Macedonia in the 6th century AD with the Slavic invasion of the Balkans. Their name has been modernized as Brsjaci which also is the region of Macedonia encompassing Bitola, Ohrid, Prespa and Veles which is thought to have been their Sclaviniae.
    One part of the tribe settled in Brest, Belarus. The Berziti settled in the vicinity of Lychnidos (Ohrid).
    The tribe subsequently disappeared after Byzantine, Serbian and Bulgar conquest of the region. The tribe was absorbed by the Serb and Bulgarian ethnos.
    In the 1935 book by Kirov-Majski, a self-proclaimed Brsjak, two sub-groups (ethnographic) of the Bulgarians are attested, the Brsjaks and Mijaks, according to him in 1903, the revolutionaries that rebelled in the Krushevo Uprising calls themselves "Brsjaks". Self-proclaimed Brsjaks in Macedonia have since identified with the Macedonian people.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks
    The Mijaks (Macedonian: Мијаци, Mijaci) are a sub-group of ethnic Macedonians who primarily live in the Mijačija area, comprising of the Reka and Mala Reka regions, along the Radika river,in the west of Macedonia. They are most notable for their unique style of building and the extent to which old traditions and customs are kept alive by Mijaks.With the migration from village to city many villages now are uninhabited.


    Macedonian Anthem

    Today Over Macedonia
    Today over Macedonia, is being born
    the new sun of liberty.
    The Macedonians fight,
    for their own rights!
    The Macedonians fight
    for their own rights!
    Now once again the flag flies
    (that) of the Krushevo Republic
    Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli
    Dame Gruev, Sandanski!
    Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli
    Dame Gruev, Sandanski!
    The Macedonian forests sing
    new songs and news
    Macedonia is liberated
    It lives in liberty!
    Macedonia is liberated
    It lives in liberty!

    http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...minorities=153
    Peoples in search of freedom - www.eurominority.eu
    The website of Stateless Nations and minority peoples in Europe
    (national, cultural and linguistic minorities, native peoples, ethnic groups, areas with strong identity and autonomist, independantist or separatist tendencies)

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    We know ancient Macedons were hellenic because we have quotes of them saying they were;

    Alexander Quote:
    If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Hellenes should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos…
    • As quoted in "On the Fortune of Alexander" by Plutarch, 332 a-b

    What your doing is distorting history for your own ultra-nationalistic purposes. That won't save FYROM. The main enemy of FYROM isn't greece but itself, with an economy at 30% unemployment, GPD less than albania... the FYROM governmetnt is using nationalism as a cover for the more pressing matters. The enemy of FYROM are the FYROM people themselves ;) but you don't care beacuse you live in finland enjoying their economy while pretending to be a fighter, its rather enjoyable :)

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    oh god

    you bring the communist party options?

    find who Pieri were,
    find who was myrmidos
    find who the molloseans were
    find when Dion was Build
    find the Language before the Koine
    find similaries among phrygian and makedonian
    find the aeolians Makedonian and the lokroi
    find why G is in south Makedonia around Olympus
    find why ollympias married Phllipos and why
    Hercules 2 son sons Makednos (phillip progonos)
    Myrmidos (olympias ancestor)

    Yes 700-800 BC is the first Makedonia KingDom
    after years of wars with thracian tribes like Pieri Paeones Thyni
    why thyni left for minor Asia at 700 BC who push them?
    why Pieri move to strymon at 800 BC? who pushed them
    why the area south of olymp never mentioned, Larissa
    why the dorians claim from Hercules and came from south east of Olymp (Makedonia birth place) why Hercules story is lost at Dion the holy city,
    why the Dorians never speak easily?
    why aeolians understand better makedonians than the Spartans
    why Alexander did not burn Sparta?????


    PaNtermalis is right ( i have heard him a lot of times and discuss , he is top)
    when we speak a Macedonian we do not mean a Greek from Macedonia, but one descended from Macedonia by origin and by nationality.

    the area belong to 3 thrassian tribes Pieri and Bithyni and later Vrygi
    we were invaders to that land before was thracian tribes land,
    we build 1 city Dion later Pydna Balla (Pelion) and much Later Aiges (goats) Pella etc
    we establish a king of the union the cities at about 700 BC karamos
    capital Aiges with a council from each city king
    that was the system until Amyntas more cities unite or build or conquered

    we never said that makedonians lived here before 2000 Bc
    we estimated time of entry at 1300 Bc east of Olymp and slowly north to Aiges,
    our first big state is 700BC about but cities exist at even 900 BC

    what is your point?

    yes we conquer area from Thracians 3 000 years before


    as you realize its our nationality that named the land not a US council or an emperror
    makedonia is a Nation not an area, and dont belong to it cause you are a slav

    as you say xenophon the athenean its Phillip the Makedonian

    petsas is also wright

    for us the Greeks Makedonian is Blood connection he came from Hercules,
    not a land, not a treaty,
    christianity and byzantium ****** us a lot, but that is another story,
    we shrunk we shrunk, but we never give up our blood,
    simply not today when we speak a part from our language (at least not turkish)

    besides STRABO εστιν ουν ΕλλαΣ και η Μακεδονια

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza
    Eugene N. Borza was a professor emeritus of ancient history at Pennsylvania State University. He has written many works on the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.




    Published works
    Eugene Borza

    Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians?
    (Abstract from a paper presented at the 1996 Annual meeting of the American PhilologicalAssociation http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html)
    This paper seeks to illuminate the problems associated with determining the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (were
    they Greek?), and to discuss the "reverberations" (to use the organizers' term) of that issue in modem times. While the
    1971 OED may regard the use of the word "ethnicity" as obsolete, no adequate substitute for the word exists. Indeed,
    part of the discussion in my paper will, following the lead of Loring Danforth in his recent The Macedonian Conflict.-
    Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World (Princeton 1995), attempt to illustrate some principles by which the "ethnicity"
    of the ancient Macedonians--and, perhaps, other ancient peoples--can be discussed in a coherent manner.

    Among the questions asked as appropriate to a methodological model of determining ethnicity are:

    I. What were a people's origins and what language did they speak? From the surviving literary sources
    (Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides) there is little information about Macedonian origins, and the
    archaeological data from the early period is sparse and inconclusive. On the matter of language, and despite
    attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of the linguist R. A.
    Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language
    it was. But it is clear from later sources that Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court
    of Alexander the Great. Moreover, the presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more
    proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels
    and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks.

    II. Self-identity: what did the Macedonians say or think about themselves? Virtually nothing has survived
    from the Macedonians themselves (they are among the silent peoples of antiquity), and very little remains in
    the Classical and Hellenistic non-Macedonian sources about Macedonian attitudes.

    III. What did others say about the Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information from
    Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes),
    based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two
    languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded
    the Greeks and Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by
    considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility.

    IV. What is the nature of cultural expressions as revealed by archaeology? As above we are blessed with an
    increasing amount of physical evidence revealing information about Macedonian tastes in art and decoration,
    religion, political and economic institutions, architecture and settlement patterns. Clearly the Macedonians
    were in many respects Hellenized, especially on the upper levels of their society, as demonstrated by the
    excavations of Greek archaeologists over the past two decades. Yet there is much that is different, e. g., their
    political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments.

    I will argue that, whoever the Macedonians were, they emerged as a people distinct from the Greeks who lived to the south and east. In time their royal court--which probably did not have Greek origins (the tradition in Herodotus that the Macedonian kings were descended from Argos is probably a piece of Macedonian royal propaganda)--became Hellenized in many respects, and I shall review the influence of mainstream Greek culture on architecture, art, and literary preferences.

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    Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks?

    Ancient Quotes on the Macedonians as Distinct Nation

    The ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, geographers, and orators, speak of the Macedonians as distinct nation, separate from their Greek, Thracian, and Illyrian neighbors. They are clear that Macedonia was never part of Greece and that the Macedonians conquered Greece, Thrace, and Illyria, and kept the Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians enslaved, until Rome defeated the Macedonian armies and turned the country into its first province in 168 BC. The assertion of those modern historians that propagate that the Macedonians "were Greeks" which have "united" Greece, is absurd and is completely unsupported by the words of the ancients who clearly considered Greece subjected by the Macedonian foreigners. The Macedonians garrisoned the Greek cities (like the Thracian and Illyrian cities) to enforce their occupation, and later used the Greeks (along with equal numbers of the Thracians and Illyrians) for their conquest of Persia.




    The ancient Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks, nor the Macedonians regarded themselves to be Greek. They were proud of their Macedonian nationality and way of life, and looked down upon the Greeks and with contempt. The Greeks called them barbarians, along with the Persians, Illyrians, and Thracians, a label that they attributed to all non-Greeks who neither spoke nor understood the Greek language. Alexander's Macedonian Army was not a "Greek army" as some modern writers have erroneously claimed, nor the Macedonian conquest of Asia was a "Greek conquest". The fact is that not one ancient writer has called the Macedonian empire "Greek" or the Macedonian army and conquest "Greek", but specifically Macedonian. When Rome clashed with Macedonia, the Macedonians were ordered by the Romans to evacuate from the whole of Greece and withdraw to Macedonia. They were hated by the Greeks ever since Philip II defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in 338 BC and brought Greece to its kneel, and the Greeks fought fiercely, first on the side of the Persians and later on the side of the Romans to expel the Macedonians from their country. Too late would they realize that the Macedonian occupation would only be replaced by the Roman. In between the Greeks fought many unsuccessful wars against the Macedonians to drive them out of Greece, among which the Lamian War is the most famous. It should be noted that the Lamian War was triggered by the death of Alexander the Great, which encouraged the Greeks to rebel.

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamian_War

    The “Lamian War”, also referred to as the “Hellenic War” and the “War against Antipater”, was fought by the Athenians and their Aetolian, Locrian, and Phocian allies against the Macedonians in Thessaly during the winter of (323322 BC). After some initial successes, the Athenians and her allies besieged the town of Lamia, located on the southern slope of the Othrys Mountains on the Malic Gulf, where Antipater, regent of Macedon and commander of the Macedonian forces in Europe, had taken refuge behind the substantial fortifications of the city. Unsuccessful in their siege, the rebel Athenians were eventually defeated at the Battle of Crannon in Thessaly in 322, bringing the uprising to an end.

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