Macedonians

Garrick, again you are using a provocative statement without any evidence, because Macedonians are not Serbs.

Why should Macedonians be I2a2 only? You are a big nationalist.

To find Haplogroup E in Alexander III Macedon (The Great) is your own vision and nobody cares what haplogroup he had, might be whatever. Let him rest in peace.

DejaVu
I have never ever mention Serbs or I think that Alexander the Great have nothing to do with the Serbs, and to understand what I meant.

If Alexander the Great was E haplogroup:

Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:

Greeks and

Albanians.


No No No Slav Macedonians, Serbs, do not know who.


You calling me a nationalist because I say that Alexander the Great was neither Slav Macedonian nor Serb???


Do you know that in Serbia does have a nationalists (but in Macedonia FYROM much much more), who think that Alexander the Great was a Serb or I2a2?

I just fight against the stupid nationalistic ideas!!!

I don't accept it.

I don't accept statues of Alexander the Great neither in Skopje nor in Belgrade.
 
proper research would go into deeper analysis of all haplogroups that are in common for those 3 people and Balkan, and that distinguish those people from surroundings......

Agree.

Hope they find same haplogroup that is common in all balkan countries, so all nationalist can get a big surprise. Then maybe all will agree that all have mixed population from many historical people and nations.
 
If Alexander the Great was E haplogroup:

Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:

Greeks and

Albanians.


No No No Slav Macedonians, Serbs, do not know who.

stop with that propaganda like argument...
does 2.2% of I1 in some part of Russia proves that Hitler and Napoleon were I1?

Alexander Macedonian origins from family that has Greek origin (at least one of his ancestors claimed that in order to be allowed to participate in Olympic games)...

but origin of elite and origin of nations they rule over often differ...

equal spread of R1a among Macedonia Slavic and Albanian population and elevated spread in Greece Macedonia coupled with R1a in Balkan being ancient old is clear indication that ancient Macedonians were dominantly R1a people... expected additional haplogroups are G2a, J2b and only than E-V13...

of course, Alexander did in his army have also Thracians, Illyrians.... all people who are likely to have had some or much E-V13...
 
"Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:"
"Greeks and Albanians."


WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE??????????????

You have provocative statements!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
this is politically motivated paper.... that should prove that ancient Macedonians were Greeks...those 3 nations do not claim origin from Greeks (as claimed in paper) but from armies of Alexander the Great which is much wider notion...

ancient Macedonians were almost certainly dominantly R1a people (as Greek Macedonia has it more than Slavic Macedonia, as in Slavic Macedonia it is equally spread in ethnic Macedonians and Albanians, and as R1a on Balkan is ancient old)

Greek Macedonia is R1a dominant area, and so are all 3 people who claim descend from ancient Macedonians......but they compare only E haplogroup and find 2.1% of E1b1b in Pathan, which could have arrived there in multitude other ways.... though it probably did arrive with armies of ancient Macedonians...

question is why do they check only E1b1b? because R1a has connotation of being Slavic marker... and E and J as being Greek markers...and authors are Greeks... another indicator worth checking is haplogroup G, and again it is present in all 3 groups....

proper research would go into deeper analysis of all haplogroups that are in common for those 3 people and Balkan, and look for details that distinguish those people from surroundings and are same as in Balkans......

how yes no
I'm not saying that your thinking is incorrect, perhaps it is properly.

But for that you are talking requires some scientific evidence, some proof.

No one says it is proven that Alexander the Great was the holder of E haplogroup.

However this research exists and this is closest to now the final result, if we follow the scientific approach that we are closed to the truth which differs from the current assumptions this means that we need to have some findings, some other results based on which we can discuss.

The result of Pakistani and international scientists has been widely quoted, and for now, until proven otherwise, the highest probability is that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E.
 
The result of Pakistani and international scientists has been widely quoted, and for now, until proven otherwise, the highest probability is that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E.

Again you have no clue where Haplogroup E is.

Haplogroup E
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe

Albanians
25.5% (2008)

Bosnians
10,1% (2005)

Bulgarians
20.7% (2004)

Croats (mainland)
5,6% (2005)

Greeks
31.6% (2008), 20,8% (2007), 23,8% (2004)

Macedonians (FYROM)
18% (2010), 24,1% (2005)

Romanians
7,4% (2004)

Serbs
17,3% (2010), 21,2% (2005)

Slovenians
2,7% (2008), 7,1% (2000)


What makes Haplogroup E, Greek or Albanian? Maybe, because you are Albanian from Serbia.
 
Again you have no clue where Haplogroup E is.

Haplogroup E
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe

Albania
25.5% (2008)

Bulgaria
20.7% (2004)

Greece
31.6% (2008), 20,8% (2007), 23,8% (2004)

Macedonia (FYROM)
18% (2010), 24,1% (2005)

Serbia
17,3% (2010), 21,2% (2005)


What makes Haplogroup E, Greek or Albanian? Maybe , because you are albanian from Serbia.

Montenegro 27% > Albania 25.5%
while Montenegro has 5% Albanians

though in Ghegs haplogroup E is much more frequent than in Albania and Montenegro...
however this can be misleading as variance of haplogroup E in Kosovo is very little... much less than in Dalmatia...
big frequency coupled with small variation is indicator of extreme reproduction rate with most people in such group having common ancestor very close in time ....
 
"Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:"
"Greeks and Albanians."


WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE??????????????

You have provocative statements!!!!!!!!!!!!

DejaVu
Do not know how you can not understand something that is obvious.

Of course, the whole story becomes dangerous to the idea that the Slav Macedonians are the same as the ancient Macedonians, it is clear, however, why elite FYROM Macedonia follows the stupid ideas that can lead to disaster.

And you know the Albanians; in the forums, newspapers, books, history, science has a lot of Albanians, who say that Alexander the Great was Albanian.

You know that the Albanians did not accept the Macedonian encyclopedia, partly because the chapter on ancient Macedonia, which the Albanians think that this is their history and not the Macedonian Slav.

And when they threatened protests over Macedonia, FYROM, encyclopedia is withdrawn.

Do not understand me wrong, I do not say that the Albanians are right, but they refer to various sources, and indeed some authors in the West to give them the right.

If by any chance to prove that Alexander the Great was the E haplogroup then you can only imagine how the Albanians to have wings.

Next best thing, they would argue that this is evidence that they are descendants of ancient Macedonians.

They will no longer be concerned only part of the western and northern Macedonia, where they have a majority, but they will see themselves as the successors to the whole of Macedonia.

I'm trying to say how stupid FYROM Macedonian propaganda can itself cause the mat, then a hopeless position.
 
Montenegro 27% > Albania 25.5%
while Montenegro has 5% Albanians

though in Ghegs haplogroup E is much more frequent than in Albania and Montenegro...

how yes no
The highest concentration of Haplogroup E-V13 in the world is among the Gege Albanians.

Albania,Gege, 41.21% (Ferri et al, 2010),

Kosovo 45.6% (Pericic et al).

And Gege Albanians make up almost the entire population of Albanians in Kosovo.


It is true that there are studies showing that in the Peloponnese E-V13 is 47% however Maciamo caught my attention, and he's right, it's a small sample.
 
You clearly have big problems. Its not even your business what kind of haplogroups people have.
All should have a chance to be something and there is no problem over the matching with Albanians if it is the real proof, but they are not alone to have E-V13 "Hitler" is one who had it. What are you expecting, that all E-V13 people around the world will call themselfs Albanians or maybe Macedonians?

There are only one kind of original Macedonians the ethnic Macedonians, everything else is used for propaganda by the neighbours of Republic of Macedonia.
 
how yes no
The highest concentration of Haplogroup E-V13 in the world is among the Gege Albanians.

Albania,Gege, 41.21% (Ferri et al, 2010),

Kosovo 45,6% (Pericic et al).

And Gege Albanians make up almost the entire population of Albanians in Kosovo.



It is true that there are studies showing that in the Peloponnese E-V13 is 47% however Maciamo caught my attention, and he's right, it's a small sample.




yes, but it is not only frequency what matters most when it comes to ancient history, but also the variation....

Kosovo Albanians have almost no variation in their haplogroup E....which indicates rather recent common origin....

in 4 generations you can have
A has 10 kids, all his kids have 10 kids, all kids of his kids have 10 kids, and all their kids 10 kids... =>10000 people

B has 3 kids, his kids have 2 kids, his kids have 1 kid, their kids 2 kids
=> 12 people

now those two groups - one made of those 12 people and other of those 10000 people are probable to have same variation in YDNA haplogroup.... but 4 generations ago there were only person A and person B....

when we talk about ancient Macedonians of Alexander the Great we talk about 2330 years ago...
if you take that people had kids around their 20th year, that means around 116 generations since than

Kosovo Albanians have minimalistic variation of haplogroup E, hotspot of variation of haplogroup E is in Dalmatia.....

ejhg2008249f4.jpg

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

big variation of haplogroup E in Dalmatia can be about Illyrians, but it may as well be about some pre-Illyrian people... it's hard to say anything as haplogroup E is unexpectedly low in frequency on Adriatic islands...I can understand that mainland Dalmatia had depopulation and repopulation due to waves of invaders.... but Illyrians who lived on islands, why would they run away and where...islands were never really heavily invaded.......

it would be good if some ancient DNA could be analyzed... until than it is hard to claim anything on Illyrians...as they could have been E-V13 dominant, or J2b2 dominant, or R1b dominant or I2a2 dominant...

in any case big variation of E in Dalmatia indicates that haplogroup E might have entered Balkan via sea by landing in Dalmatia..... probably from hotspot of E variance in Asia minor...
 
Before and with same road to Geneticks it is the Lingustic.

The Ancient Makedonian Dialect is Very well written by Royal Danish Academy,
also by
http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/CSAD/Hesychius/Hansen.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Thurston_Peck

AND THE MOST ANCIENT LEXICON OF HESYCHIUS OF ALEXANDDRIA

which is Before every old Makedonian church and Before slavic invasions


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria

THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language



Now DejaVu none of these words are Slavic-Makedonians,

ACCEPT IT

THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE is a Greek dialect


Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.

1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

Even IF I NAME THE BULGARIANS AND HALF OF THE TURKS AS SLAVIC-MAKEDONIANS,
THE EXISTANCE OF GREEK-MAKEDONIANS IS OBVIUS,

THESE GREEKS DID NOT WAKE UP SUDENLY IN 1904 AND MOVED TO MAKEDONIA
THEY EXISTED THERE 3000 YEARS,
SO THE RIGHT OF GREEK PEOPLE TO BE THEIR THEIR NATION IS STRONGER THAN YOUR CLAIMS ABOUT A TREATY
A TREATY IS STRONG OF THE PEOPLE ACCEPT IT,
WE DO NOT WANT OR ACCEPT THE TREATY OF BUCUREST 1913 AND WANT OUR OWN STATE,
IN THE LANDS THAT OUR FATHERS (ARGEIANS) LIVED AND ONLY THAT
BECAUSE FYROM IS ANOTHER ETHNICITIE,

Understand that
the MAKEDONIA YOU CLAIM IS MADE BY 3 NATIONS
GREEK-MAKEDONIAN
SLAVIC-MAKEDONIAN
ALBANIAN

WE HAVE AT 90 % THE LANDS OF OUR FATHERS THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIANS AND BELLOW 40% OF THE LAND YOU CLAIM
AS YUGOSLAVIA TODAY IS CUT TO ETHNICITIES
AS USSR IS CUT TO ETHNICITIES
AS INDIA IS CUT TO PAKISTAN-NEPAL_INDIA-BAGLADESH

YOUR MAKEDONIA EXISTED ON THE MAPS ONLY,
IN TREATIES AND PAPERS NOT IN THE HEART OF PEOPLE,
EVEN IF WE WERE OR ARE LESS THAN YOU, WE DONT WANT TO BE A MINORITY
SO KEEP YOUR MAJORITY AND YOUR STATE,
AND CLAIMING AND BULLSHIT,

THE I2a
THE E-V13
THE J2
IS DIFFERENT AMONG SLAVIC AND GREEK MAKEDONIANS
SO EVEN GENETICALLY WE ARE DIFFERENT,
OR WE COME FROM DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES

Have in mind that by claiming lands and ethnicitie you open your self to be claimed also

Look at Ossetia and Abkhazia
once they belong to Georgia,
today are 'independent' (?) and choose according their will
the south to Georgia the north 'independent' (Russian federate state)
if I am georgian I go south
If i am Ossetian I go north

the same Here,
If I am Greek-Makedonian I 'll go Greek Makedonia
If I am Slavic-Makedonian I 'll go to Fyrom

the problem is that Fyrom denies The Slavic and claims land And ethnicitie
Understand that,


Besides all the story here are mainly based in The KURGAN Hypothesis (hypothesis not thesis)
and not the opposite Greco-Aryan-Armenian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan

which leads us to Grassman's Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grassmann's_Law

cause if we take that thesis upon that law the whole Kurgan hypothesis is never happened
and the PIE language started at almost Armenia-Levant, and went to steppes, and returned from there,
That Hypothesis is also existing,
the propability that IE language went to steppes, and then returned back
is mentioned in all archaic civilizations,
Hebrew, Assyr, Greeks, Babylonians,
as also a new approach of Black sea and
Propontis cataclysm



 
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Language is your connection? Again you are lost in your fantasy world but continue, that is your problem.
 
You clearly have big problems. Its not even your business what kind of haplogroups people have.
All should have a chance to be something and there is no problem over the matching with Albanians if it is the real proof, but they are not alone to have E-V13 "Hitler" is one who had it. What are you expecting, that all E-V13 people around the world will call themselfs Albanians or maybe Macedonians?

There are only one kind of original Macedonians the ethnic Macedonians, everything else is used for propaganda by the neighbours of Republic of Macedonia.

DejaVu
Type in the Google:

Alexander the Great Albanian

188 000 results!

Here's a small selection from the first page:

http://albhistory.netfirms.com/famousalbanians-alexander.html

Alexander the Great
There are few places where Alexander the Great's influence has not been felt. His vast empire spread from the Atlantic shores of Spain to the plains of India. His example has been admired and followed for generations to come, and his legacy has been deeply felt by the entire world. It is said that Julius Ceaser himself began to weep as he stood under the shadow of a statue of Alexander the Great, for Alexander had conquered half the world by 19, and Ceaser not even made a name for himself by that age.

And how was he Albanian in any way? Well, first of all Alexander was son of Philip II and Olympia. Olympia, was the princess of Epirus, a province in Northern Greece, considered to be modern day Albania, and an ancient territory of Albanian tribes. This relation of Alexander having Albanian blood is considered somewhat feasible and acceptable by the history books, but we want to stretch out the enigma of Alexander.

Initially there is the question of where and to what people Alexander belonged to. It is known that Alexander the Great, was really Alexander of Macedon, and the current flag of Macedonia is the ancient sun flag of Alexander's army. This seems reasonable, but what really were the "Macedon" people. As stated in the Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, "the Slavs, occupied much of the area [Balkans] by the 6th century AD", so it cannot be possible for the now largely Slavic Macedonia to be a descendant from Alexander the Great. Slavic tribes did not come into the region of Northern Greece until well after Alexander's death, which leaves only two people left, the Albanians and the Greeks. It is important tot note that the history books have not labeled Alexander Greek, and therefore he can only be Albanian. Albanian tribes are the earliest known to occupy northern Greece, and that allows Alexander only one nationality. Alexander did not have Albanian blood, he was an Albanian. To Albanians this fact seems very clear, for we have named our currency lek, after Leka I Madh.




http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080727204138AAgmRrj

How is alexander the great albanian?




www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CIwd

Alexander the Great is ALBANIAN




www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebxHtuf-YI

George FINLAY Alexander the Great spoken Albanian

Etc...


Not to mention the sites in the Albanian language and other languages.

And now. Can you even imagine what would happen to disclose that Alexander the Great was the holder of E?

 
What was like the ancient Macedonian language?

There are only a certain number of preserved words, and from the current knowledge the structure of the ancient Macedonian can not be fully synthesised. Most of the ancient Macedonian words are different to the ancient Greek language words, however there are a few that are similar. For the words from the ancient Macedonian language that are similar to the ancient Greek language words are believed to be taken on from Greek.19) In fact, this occurrence was and still is characteristic for all languages in the world. In the Macedonian language today terms are adopted from foreign languages mainly where there is no authentic terminology or analogy. For instance: antena (antenna); satelit (satellite); mobilen telefon (mobile/cellular phone); kompjuter (computer) etc. These foreign words are being adapted in accordance with the modern Macedonian phonetic system. This needs to be taken into account when analysing the ancient Macedonian language. The authenticity and the nature of a language can not be possibly determined only by the words that language adopted from another language.

One needs to bear in mind that almost all the preserved ancient Macedonian words reached modern age through their Greek transcript which makes it more difficult to identify their true meaning. It is important that the phenomenon "Interpretato Graeca" is mentioned here, that is greekifying of all the foreign words: nouns, verbs, and especially names. A specific characteristic of this process is adding the suffix "os" or "s" to the foreign words, and this will be discussed later in this paper.

Despite all this, it is very interesting to note that many of the authentic ancient Macedonian words, according to their etymology and pronunciation, have a striking resemblance to the appropriate words used in the modern Macedonian language (and other so called "Slav" languages).
For instance, the word "tshelniku" which translated in English means foremost is a very interesting case. The British historian Hammond mentioned its etymology and said that the word "tshelniku" in the ancient Macedonian language had a meaning of "leader of a group". Hammond says that this word was translated into Greek only in the 14th century as "phylarchos".20)
The word "tshelnik" with completely identical etymology and pronunciation has been registered in the so called "old Slavic language" in Macedonia as early as 11th century! Proof of this is the entry of Byzantine chronicle writer Kekavmen where he described the events surrounding the anti-Byzantine uprising of Petar Deljan in 11th century. He said that in the language of the rebels "the strategist is called tshelnik"!21) It is known that Kekavmen was fluent in the "language of the Slavs" in Macedonia therefore he could translate the Greek word "strategist" as "tshelnik" (the strategist was a high military rank in Byzantine). It is even more interesting that the word "tshelnik" with identical etymology and pronunciation is being used in todays' Macedonian language and in other "Slav" languages, as well! This can not be a coincidence, especially considering the fact that there could be hundreds of thousands etymological meanings that a single word can represent, and in this instance there is an identical etymological meaning for a word that has also an identical pronunciation.

The remark that the middle age Macedonians simply borrowed this word from the language of ancient Macedonians and used it in 11th century is not valid. Assuming that it is so, becomes impossible to explain the fact that this word is present in the contemporary Croatian literary language. Have they inherited this word from the ancient Macedonians as well? It is the same with the contemporary Serbian and Bulgarian literary languages where this word is also present with the same pronunciation and etymology.
It is highly likely that through analysis of the word "tshelniku" some other characteristics of the ancient Macedonian language could be identified, considering the fact that in the contemporary Macedonian language this word is deducted from the noun "tshelo" - forehead.
As mentioned previously, the non-Greek words were recorded by the ancient Greeks on as-heard basis without analysing the form of the word. Due to the fact the word "tshelniku" had been recorded inclusive of the vowel "u" at the end, it is anticipated that "tshelniku" was recorded by the ancient Greeks in its vocative form. The vocative form of the noun "tshelnik" in the contemporary Macedonian language is precisely "tshelniku". Is it maybe that the Greeks used to hear the word "tshelniku" every time a Macedonian addressed the leader, therefore recorded this word without realising that they were recording its vocative form?

Another word that is also very interesting in this regard is the word "phoinikos", which is related to the warfare22). Indubitable this word is very much alike the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" meaning "soldier". There could be a little doubt that these words have a common origin. Why is this so? In the ancient Greek language the consonant "v" did not exist23). The conclusion is imminent that the true pronunciation of the word "phoinikos" would be "voinikos" ("ph" replaced with "v"). In addition to this, as established earlier in this text, ancient Greeks added the suffix "os" to a lot of non-Greek words they recorded. If the word "phoinikos" had been subjected to the "Interpretato Graeca" phenomenon i.e. if the suffix "os" had been added to this non-Greek word, by taking out the Greek suffix we arrive at the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" (soldier). Not only the pronunciation, but also the etymology of the word "voinik" is very similar to that of the word "phoinikos" and is located in the domain of warfare.

An abundance of water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary Macedonian language. The corresponding ancient Macedonian word for this is the word "vedy". The Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical "Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa, may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave the name "Edessa", was originally a Brygian city and its old name was Vedy which means abundance of water24). Furthermore, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote that ancient Macedonians had a great respect towards the water (springs, wells, rivers) and they worshiped the Macedonian divinity they called Vedy25). In this instance as well, the similarity between pronunciation of a contemporary Macedonian and an ancient Macedonian word is undeniable, and again their etymology is identical.

The contemporary Macedonian verb "pesh" (walk) in ancient Macedonian would have been pronounced "pez"26).

"Pella"27) is another ancient Macedonian word. The etymology of this word is "a stone". The corresponding word in contemporary Macedonian language is "spila", which is similar in pronunciation with the ancient Macedonian word "pella".

The ancient Macedonian word recorded through its Greek interpretation as "skoidos" bears the meaning of judges. In contemporary Macedonian this meaning is conveyed using the word "sudii"28).


There are number of ancient Macedonian words with undetermined etymology which in their pronunciation undeniably resemble contemporary Macedonian words, as well as words from other so called "Slavic languages".


A very good example is the word "arotos" which ancient Macedonians used as an epithet to the god Heracles29). Its etymology is undetermined to-date, however if the suffix "s" is deleted this word is practically identical with the adjective "aroto" - "the old one" (archaism to a degree) from the present Macedonian language. According to a legend Heracles was considered to be the oldest ascendant of the Macedonians. Can the answer for the etymology of the word "arotos" be located in this legend, by referring to Heracles as "the old one" or "aroto(s)"?


It is inevitable that the Macedonian Phalanx is mentioned in this discussion. The strongest weapon of the phalanx was the long spear called "sarissa". It is very interesting to analyse the etymology of the word "sarissa". The first and obvious question is whether the first letter of this word, the letter "s", is authentic or perhaps there should be the letter "z" instead? It is well known that the name of the Brygian (ancient Macedonian) goddess was recorded as both "Semela" and "Zemela". If this is applied to the word "sarissa" i.e. the letter "s" is replaced with the letter "z" it will transform into the word "zarissa". An exciting assumption emerges regarding the etymology of this word. The reflexive verb in its dialectical form "zari se" in the contemporary Macedonian is identical in pronunciation with the word "zarisa" (thrust itself in, pierce itself into). This is of course an assumption, which nevertheless has a solid base in the information presented in relation to the pronunciation and etymology of the words discussed previously.

By analysing ancient Macedonian words that have a determined etymology, it is possible to make some assumptions and even draw some conclusions regarding certain grammatical forms of the ancient Macedonian language. This forms are identical with the forms of the contemporary Macedonian language.

It is worth to mention that there were words in the ancient Macedonian language that (at least without performing a deeper analysis) appear to have a little in common with the contemporary Macedonian language. However, the presence of these words does not deny the existence of words from the contemporary Macedonian language in the ancient Macedonian language. In fact, for some of these words it is more than obvious that they had existed in the ancient Macedonian vocabulary.
We should also turn attention to a portion of the ancient Macedonian onomastics. At the same time it is necessary to keep in mind two things. First, there is no doubt that the ancient Macedonians (mainly those from the highest circles) accepted part of the Hellenic onomastics. But in fact a large number of Macedonian names were different than those in the Hellenic onomasticon, while a considerable number of these are reminiscent of the later Macedonian onomasticon, or are derived from words of Macedonian or from so called "Slavic" (Venetic) origin.

A second thing that needs to be kept in mind is the fact that ancient Macedonian personal names up to our own time mainly achieved written form through their Greek (and in a smaller number Latin as well) transcription. We can surmise that a considerable number of these names were given the added Greek suffixes "os" and "s", and more rarely "us". There are a lot of proofs for this, but here for lack of space we shall only mention that, in our research we have noted over 350 personal names written by ancient Greek authors, which names belonged to various non-Greek peoples. The overwhelming number of these Persian, Thracian, Illyrian, Egyptian, Scythian, Brygian, Libyan, Indian, and other personal names (but also toponyms and other words) were artificially Hellenized by the old Greek authors, adding the Greek suffix "os", and where appropriate "s". Sometimes the old Greek authors went to such lengths that the foreign name was totally changed in the process. Thus, for example, the Egyptian Pharaoh Khu-fu in Greek sources became written as CheopS (with the attached Greek suffix "s"). Later the Indian King Chandragupta was written by Greeks as SandroticOS, and so forth. Sometimes the only change to the name would be the Greek ending "os" or "s". Thus, for example, the name of the Egyptian King Psamtic was written by Greeks as PsametihOS. The Macedonian name Ata, as well, became written as both Ata and AtaS (Hellenized by addition of the suffix "s"), etc.

We've said that we have identified hundreds of such examples of artificially Hellenized non-Greek names (but also other non-Greek words) by old Greek writers, which for lack of space here, will not be mentioned. According to such practices of that time it happened that peoples from quite disparate cultures, ethnic origins (and even races) such as the Persians, Egyptians, Illyrians, Arabians, Libyans, Thracians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Indians, Macedonians, and others, all had identical (Greek) endings on their names. This is so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Therefore, in the following discussion particular attention will be paid to the roots of personal names, given the extensive artificial use of the Greek suffixes "os" and "s" (as well as "us").
 
DejaVu
You can see that
the Albanians are widely proclaimed that the ancient Macedonian was Albanian language.
 
DejaVu
You can see that
the Albanians are widely proclaimed that the ancient Macedonian was Albanian language.

Albanians are in their national Romanticism phase... so they see themselves as = ancient Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians, Macedonians, even as original Greeks....
it is fascinating how devoted they are to spreading their state and ideas of their right on lands of Balkan...

what can I say...hopefully they will calm down from that romanticism and focus on improving cooperation with neighbors... same goes for other Balkan nations...it would be nice if the Balkan region has long period of peace that will allow it to further develop economically and culturally...
 
What was like the ancient Macedonian language? (continued)


In the ancient Macedonian onomasticon we will include several Brygian names (most of them found in Macedonia) as well. This is for the simple reason that Brygians played a major role in the ethnogenesis of the ancient Macedonians 30). But to pass on to concrete instances. We will mention a portion of the ancient Macedonian names which are the same or very similar to later Macedonian names or words, as well as names and words of the other so called "Slavic languages". Most of these names are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon 31) .

Ata(s). The root of this name contains the noun "at", which in the so called "Old Slavic language" meant "a horse". We note that the ancient Macedonians were great horsemen and horses were very importaint for them. Such names allready exsists in onomasticons of other peoples (for example Bulgarians have their popular name Asparuh, which means "speed horse" in Old Bulgarian language). The same name "Ata" is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Apell(es). The root of this name contains the noun "apel" (a call) which we have in the present day Macedonian language.
Atarhi(as). The root of this name contains the noun "atar". This is a Macedonian archaism for the word "love". Names that contain the word "love" exist in a majority of lexicons.

Bere(s). The root of this name contains the verb "bere" (to pick up) that exists today in the Macedonian language and in other "Slavic" languages. Also in the present day Macedonian onomasticon there are names derived from verbs. The name "Bere" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Crater(us)32). The root of this name contains the word "krater" (crater) which exsists in the present day Macedonian and other "Slavic" languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name "Krate".

Caran(us)33). This name might be connected to the present day Macedonian noun "kruna" (a crown). The name "Karanche" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Dada. The noun "dada" in the present day Macedonian language means "older sister". The name "Dada" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Daron. This is a name for the ancient Macedonian god of healing. Its etymology is known, and it means "he that gives health." This means that the name of this god contains the Macedonian noun "dar" (a gift). The names Darun, Dare, Dara and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Del(us). The verb "dela" (to work) exists in the so called "Old Slavic language", as well as in several present day "Slavic languages". The name "Dele" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Dimno(s). The adjective "dimno" exists in the present day Macedonian language and still means "steamy The names Dimna, Dimon, Dimnak and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Diplai(os)34). A name of an upper Macedonian (Payonian) ruler. In his name is the noun "dipla" that in dialectal form in the present day Macedonian language means a bouquet of flowers. The noun "dipla" is also used as a designation for a type of old Macedonian instrument.

Dita. The noun exists in Slavic languages as "dite" or "dete", which means "a child". In 19th century Macedonian onomasticon was recordered the same name "Dita".

Dita(s). This is an obvious form of the preceding name Dita, but it has been Hellenized with the suffix "s".

Dud(es). The noun "dud" (a type of wood) exists in several "Slavic" languages. The names Dude and Duda are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Glaukia(s)35). Could this name be derived from the noun "glava" (a head)? In 19th century Macedonia one finds the male name Glavko.36)

Gauan(us). This is an old originally ancient Macedonian name, first mentioned by Herodotus. It has obvious similarities to the noun "gaval", that represents an archaism for the "kaval" (a short Macedonian wind instrument). In 15th century Macedonia one finds the male names: Gavale and Gavala.

Kopria. This name has possible connections to the noun "kopra" (a dill). It is a well-known practice to derive personal names from those of the plant world. In 16th century Macedonia one finds the female name Kopra.

Lasten. This name may be connected to the noun "lastovica" (in Serbian: "lasta"), which means "a swallow". The name Laste is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon.

Lyka. This female Macedonian name, which exists in the present day language, is possibly derived from the noun "lika" (a face, pretty face). The name Lika is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon.

Milo. This name was mentioned by Plutarch as a name of a Macedonian military leader in the Macedonian-Roman conflicts. This name exists to the present day in the Macedonian onomasticon. It has an obvious identification with the present day Macedonian adjective "milo" (dear), from which a number of names are (Milosh, Milko, Milka).

Mesti(us). The root of this name contains the noun (archaism) "mesti" (small childrens' shoes made from wool). In later Macedonian onomasticon there were also names derived from pieces of clothes.

Mamina. This name fully corresponds to the present day Macedonian adjective "mamina" (the one who belongs to her mother). In 18th and 19th century Macedonia one finds the female name Maminka.

Mama. This is identical to the present day Macedonian noun "mama", which in any case, exists in other languages. In 15th century Macedonia one finds the female name Mamica (deminutive for Mama).

Mama(s). It is obvious that this is a Hellenized variant on the previous name.
Manta. The noun "mantija", that exists in the present day Macedonian language represents a type of long garment. In 19th century Macedonia one finds the same female name Manta.

Mantyes. This is probably a variant of the previous name. The spoken form of this word (without the suffix "s") is still closer to the noun "mantija".

Med(es). The root of this name contains the noun "med" (honey), which exists in todays' Macedonian language as well in most other "Slavic" languages. The name Mede is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Myrcin(us). Name of a king of an ancient Macedonian tribe Edoni, mentioned by Herodotus. If we remove the Greek "us", we get the name Myrcin (Mirkin). To the present day in the Macedonian language there is the female name "Mirka" (derived from the noun "mir", which means peace), while "Mirkin" is an adjective which means "The one who belongs to Mirka". Among the Macedonians, right up to the 20th century, men frequently received names derived from their mother's name (Kanin son of Kana; Mirkin son of Mirka and etc.). Could that be the case with this name? The names Mirkan, Mirin and so on are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Mucati. The verb "mucati" exists in a number of the "Slavic" languages. In the Macedonian language the verb "mucna" means "to speak". Maybe this name can be connected to the noun "mucka" (snout). If we read "c" as "k", then maybe the root of this name can be connected to the noun "mukach" (which means a cry baby). The names Mucan Muce, Mucko, Mukan, Muko are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Nana. The noun "nana" in the Macedonian language today is used to signify an older female relative. In dialectal form "nana" takes the form of the verb, to sleep. The name Nana is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Pita. The noun "pita" (a type of food), can be found in a number of "Slavic" languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name Pito. There are other Macedonian names derived from the food: Piroshka, Pituluca and others.

Pittak(os). Could this be a variant of the previous name? The noun "pitach" exists in the present day Macedonian language, with the meaning, "one who begs". The names Pito and Pitako are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Plator. The noun "plat" exists in the present day Macedonian language as a type of high quality cloth. The suffix "or" is encountered in other male personal names, which means that it is independent of the root "plat". The name Platin is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Pyri(as).The root of this name could be connected to the noun "pir" (merriment). The name Piri is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Pyrh(os). This is probably a variant of the previous name.

Perustae. The noun "perustija" in the present day Macedonian language means an iron spit for cooking meat over a fire, an item that had great significance in the preparation of food in the past. The name Peruska is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Rumi37). A female name that could possibly be connected to the adjective "rumena" (ripe red). In todays' Macedonian onomasticon there is name "Rumi", which is short form of the name "Rumena" (ripe red).

Sita. A name that is identical to the present day Macedonian adjective "sita" (eating to satisfaction). The male name Sitko is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Sopol(is).This ancient Macedonian name is mentioned by the Greek historian Arrian as the name of a Macedonian officer in the army of Alexander the Great. It obviously contains the root "sopol" (a strong spring) from the so called "Old Slavic language". The name Sopol is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Stasanor. This name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "stasan" (ripe). We've said that the suffix "or" can be found in other male names, which means that it is outside of the root "stasan". The names Stasin, Stase and Staso are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Silen(us). Name of a forest demon in Brygian mythology. The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "silen" (that which has spiritual or physical strength). In middle age Macedonia one finds the names: Silan, Silano and Silane.

Stamen(os)38). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "stamen" (reliable, firm). The name Stamen is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Sever(os). The root of this word contains the noun "sever" (north), which exists in in a number of present day "Slavic" languages. The name Sever is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Sipa. In the Macedonian language there exists the noun "sipa" (a type of fish), which lives in Macedonian lake waters. It is a well known practice to derive personal names from the names of animals. The name Sipe is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Sipa(s). This is obviously a Hellenized variant of the previous name.

Scritia39). The adjective "skrita" (secret) is apparent in this name that exists in "Slavic" languages.

Tata, Tato, Tataia. These are obvious variations of a name derived from the noun "tato" i "tata", which means "a father" and can be found in several "Slavic" languages. The name "Tataia" probably is a variant on these two names. In middle age Macedonia one find the names: Tato, Tate, Tatko, Tatka, Tatin.

Temen(os). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "temen" (dark).

Traizina. The root of this word may contain the present day Macedonian adjective "trazena" (expected, sought).

Tip(as). The root of this name contains the noun "tip" (type), which is a word found in several Slavic languages. The names Tipa and Tipe are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Vitel(is). The root of this name contains the noun "vitel", which is found in the present day Macedonian and still means (whirlpool). The name Vitol is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Zaika. This is one of the most interesting ancient Macedonian female names. It may represent a female form of the present day Macedonian "zajak" (rabbit). In any case, there are numerous examples of names taken from names of animals. The names Zaia (Zaja) and Zaiko (Zajko) are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Zaimina. The present day Macedonian language contains the adjective "zemjina" (in dialectal form "zemina") which means "the one who belongs to Earth". There is also the adjective "zimna" (the one who belongs to the winter"). The name Zemko is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
We would also add to this list the name of the well-known Brygian goddess Zemela, who was goddess of the earth. There is an obvious similarity to the Macedonian noun "zemja" (in dialectal form: "zemla"), which is similar in other "Slavic" languages.
We would also mention the name of a Brygian tribe, the "Mushki", who lived in the 9th century before Christ. Their name is identical to the noun "mushki" (men), which exists in other "Slavic" languages. Their king was called Mita a name which remains unchanged in a number of "Slavic" languages.

There are other personal names of ancient Macedonians which in their spoken form have associations with present day Macedonian words, but only some of the more obvious examples have been mentioned.
 
Albanians are in their national Romanticism phase... so they see themselves as = ancient Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians, Macedonians, even as original Greeks....
it is fascinating how devoted they are to spreading their state and ideas of their right on lands of Balkan...

what can I say...hopefully they will calm down from that romanticism and focus on improving cooperation with neighbors... same goes for other Balkan nations...it would be nice if the Balkan region has long period of peace that will allow it to further develop economically and culturally...

Kosovo is impossible to solve but the other balkan countries got no problem (only FYRO Macedonia with Greece about the name issue and identity).
 

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