IE language originated from who?R1a or R1b?

Why don't you think that R1a are the original IE speakers? The proto IE culture originated on the Volga then after on the north Black sea shores, not the other way round. Also, Indo european is closer to Uralic languages than to Caucasian one (be it North Caucasian, Kartvelian etc). In fact, almost all the area asscoiated with J2 in the middle east were non IE (Kartvelian, Hurrian, Sumerian, Semitic, Elamite, North east Caucsian, Hattian etc...).

What about the lost Anatolian Languages Hettit etc, Greek Armenian Aryan (kurdish) Persian Indian (Sanshqrit) Tocharian etc who belong to the Near-East / Middle East group

On the other Hand what about Cabardinians who have significant R1a and the rest Turkic populations
 
IE language originated from who?R1a or R1b?Thank you for any information!

Impossible to tell. PIE originated in the womb of nations with proto kartvelian and proto Afroasiatic. The connection with Uralic is a lot later with the expansion of indo-Irainian into the step. PIE could be associated with any west Asian Haplogroup.
 
Wojewoda at Forum Biodiversity posted this excellent correlation coefficient chart, relating haplogroups to IE vs. non-IE speaking groups in Iran (higher number = more correlation with IE):



Basically, of the usual suspects, R1a has the strongest link to IE speaking in Iran, although J2b (not so much J2a), R1b-M73, and R1b-M269 have correlations, as well. That seems to support the idea that R1a is "the" IE marker, with J2b and certain R1b subclades being historically minority clades (or later absorbed clades) within the overall IE population, having their spreads also associated with the spread of IE, but not quite as exclusively.

I'm a bit confused here, Sparkey. You said the higher the number, the greater correlation, but the highest numbers are:

I M170 0,28
R1a M17 0,24
R M207 0,21
L M357 0,14
R1b M73 0,14

If I is so strongly associated with IE in Iran, why do you give preference to R? Do you think I came later? That it was part of historical migrations as it is part of a small minority in Iran?

I certainly doesn't have the reach to be the Indo-European haplogroup, naturally, and almost all I haplogroup people speak an IE language today, but it is notable they have the highest correlation.
 
What about the lost Anatolian Languages Hettit etc, Greek Armenian Aryan (kurdish) Persian Indian (Sanshqrit) Tocharian etc who belong to the Near-East / Middle East group

The Tarimm mummies were tested R1a, the Northern Indian (Aryan, Sanshqrit) are R1a, the Kurdish people have sizeable amount of R1a.

It is true that Hittites in Anatolia, Aemenian and Greeks lack R1a.


On the other Hand what about Cabardinians who have significant R1a and the rest Turkic populations

Well for the Turks it is simple, they took most of the lands of the previous Indo Iranian people.
As for the Cantabrians, I have no idea. Maybe the two Iberians mesolithic folks that proved to be more "Northern Europe" than the current Iberians may hve been early R1a in the area.
 
Why don't you think that R1a are the original IE speakers? The proto IE culture originated on the Volga then after on the north Black sea shores, not the other way round. Also, Indo european is closer to Uralic languages than to Caucasian one (be it North Caucasian, Kartvelian etc). In fact, almost all the area asscoiated with J2 in the middle east were non IE (Kartvelian, Hurrian, Sumerian, Semitic, Elamite, North east Caucsian, Hattian etc...).
According to me the proto-IE culture originated somewhere around the Caucasus with cultures related to Maikop and Yamna cultures.

IE5500BP.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

Like the user 'ebAmerican' wrote the interaction between OLD Indo-European (and NOT 'proto')and Uralic languages occurred much later.

Also Dienkes explained this very well and according to him there're close links between proto-Indo-European and North Caucasian languages.

here you can find his theory and articles about it: http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/proto-indo-european-and-north-caucasian.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/indo-european-genetic-signatures-in.html


Also Northeast Europeans were already mixed with the Uralic East Asians before Indo-European folks arrived there.
So Indo-Europeans (Caucasoids) Indo-Europized native European-Uralic (Europoid) folks!

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/hints-of-eastcentral-asian-admixture-in.html
 
On the other Hand what about Cabardinians who have significant R1a and the rest Turkic populations

In today's Russian province called Kabardino/Balkaria Kabardins make 57.2% of the republic's population, followed by Russians (22.5%) and Balkars (12.7%).
The same is in Adygeya where According to the 2010 Census,[8] ethnic Russians make up 63.6% of the republic's total population, while the ethnic Adyghe are only 25.2%. This area of today's Adigheya, is just a mere fraction of what used to be land of Adyghe people, and therefore much more people in N. Caucasus declare themselves as Adyghe.


Kabardinians, a Circassian tribe, first joined forces with Russians in XVI century, and since then Kabarda was a part of Terek Cossack district made from local population mixed with Russian Cossacks, when R1a was probably, for the first time, introduced in significant numbers to this region.

Since the formation of Terek district a mass settlement of Russian Cossacks and later of regular Russian population, became continuous. Soon after a war between Russian empire and Circassians broke out. Most of original Kabardinians who survived, like all other Circassians who lost a war with Russia, fled to Turkey Jordan and Syria. Local population of Circassian tribes was decimated by war and exodus. Since 1864 Kabarda is an integral part of Russia.


Most of today's R1a looks like being of a relatively recent origin from populations like Cossacks, and later Russian settlers.
Any older R1a, if present, will hopefully be found in ancient bones.




 
May I ask why G2a is excluded from being proto IE Hg
 
In today's Russian province called Kabardino/Balkaria Kabardins make 57.2% of the republic's population, followed by Russians (22.5%) and Balkars (12.7%).
The same is in Adygeya where According to the 2010 Census,[8] ethnic Russians make up 63.6% of the republic's total population, while the ethnic Adyghe are only 25.2%. This area of today's Adigheya, is just a mere fraction of what used to be land of Adyghe people, and therefore much more people in N. Caucasus declare themselves as Adyghe.


Kabardinians, a Circassian tribe, first joined forces with Russians in XVI century, and since then Kabarda was a part of Terek Cossack district made from local population mixed with Russian Cossacks, when R1a was probably, for the first time, introduced in significant numbers to this region.

Since the formation of Terek district a mass settlement of Russian Cossacks and later of regular Russian population, became continuous. Soon after a war between Russian empire and Circassians broke out. Most of original Kabardinians who survived, like all other Circassians who lost a war with Russia, fled to Turkey Jordan and Syria. Local population of Circassian tribes was decimated by war and exodus. Since 1864 Kabarda is an integral part of Russia.


Most of today's R1a looks like being of a relatively recent origin from populations like Cossacks, and later Russian settlers.
Any older R1a, if present, will hopefully be found in ancient bones.


the search mainly is done in population that belongs to a group and not in a country,
so the R1a that was found in Balkars is not a Balkaria R1a (Russian + kabardinian) but clear kabardinian.

different population groups take different search,
 
According to me the proto-IE culture originated somewhere around the Caucasus with cultures related to Maikop and Yamna cultures.

IE5500BP.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

Like the user 'ebAmerican' wrote the interaction between OLD Indo-European (and NOT 'proto')and Uralic languages occurred much later.

Also Dienkes explained this very well and according to him there're close links between proto-Indo-European and North Caucasian languages.

here you can find his theory and articles about it: http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/proto-indo-european-and-north-caucasian.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/indo-european-genetic-signatures-in.html


Also Northeast Europeans were already mixed with the Uralic East Asians before Indo-European folks arrived there.
So Indo-Europeans (Caucasoids) Indo-Europized native European-Uralic (Europoid) folks!

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/hints-of-eastcentral-asian-admixture-in.html

Maykop looks merely like a Kurganized Caucasian culture but it was a total failure for its steppic invaders since they never achieved to impose their language. Maykop is not even considered the ancestor of the Anatolian languages by Archeologist. Most favour a Balkanic origin (Suvorovo-Novodanilovka, Cernavoda etc).

Don't you find strange that Indo European and Caucasian languages share so few similarities?
It seems that Uralic languages are the closest relatives. IE languages might have also borrowed from Semitic languages (which could have been the languge of Old Europe). Furthermore, it looks like the Caucasian languages share more similarities with Basque than with IE languages.

You may have noticed that all ancient Caucasian and Transcaucasian languages are non IE:
*Northwest Caucasian languages
*NorthEast Caucasian languages
*Kartvelian
*Hurrian
*Hattian

The only IE languages spoken here are later influx like Armenian (Greek-Phrygian branch of the IE), Kurdish etc.
 
the search mainly is done in population that belongs to a group and not in a country,
so the R1a that was found in Balkars is not a Balkaria R1a (Russian + kabardinian) but clear kabardinian.

different population groups take different search,

Self designation has its value, but for me, less than a broader picture and historical facts, especially in today's populations, and populations with a relatively recent mix. How one feels and declares in terms of belonging to, is a fair contribution, but I can hardly forget a recent correlation and a historical fact that some Russians chose to live life close to Caucasian cultures and were clearly and strongly influenced by them.

The question of historical correlation between Russians and Kabardinians still holds its value. It speaks of times when a significant number of R1a and G correlated, and it happened relatively recently. Why this matters to me more than someones feeling of belonging to some group?

Well, one can argue that after the initial introduction of two different cultures, a realtively unknown but strongly influential in terms of dress code, manners, weapons and a way of live attracted the other group enough to make settlements alongside this group and eventually influenced ones self designation.

So to me it is clear only to acknowledge the influence of Russian dna in parts of N Caucasus which is historically recent.

This does not mean that there were no R1a before that, but I believe a lot less than this survey found. Saying otherwise simply excludes recent historical influx of people. And clearly for me, that is not enough to believe a language contribution in Caucasian languages, if off course ancient bones don't prove otherwise. In that case I would believe.
 
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Maykop looks merely like a Kurganized Caucasianculture but it was a total failure for its steppic invaders since they never achieved to impose their language. Maykop is not even considered the ancestor of the Anatolian languages by Archeologist. Most favour a Balkanic origin (Cernavoda etc).

Don't you find strange that Indo European and Caucasian languages share so few similarities?
It seems that Uralic languages are the closest relatives. IE languages might have also borrowed from Semitic languages (which could have been the languge of Old Europe). Furthermore, it looks like the Caucasian languages share more similarities with Basque than with IE languages.

You may have noticed that all ancient Caucasian and Transcaucasian languages are non IE:
*Northwest Caucasian languages
*NorthEast Caucasian languages
*Kartvelian
*Hurrian
*Hattian

The only IE languages spoken here are later influx like Armenian (Greek-Phrygian branch of the IE), Kurdish etc.
No, you don't understand me. I believe that the cultures from the Caucasus and Mesopotamia heavily influenced Kurgan cultures in the Steppes.

Civilization started in West Asia and NOT in the Steppes.

Maykop culture influenced Yamna culture, and Maykop culture was in turn influenced by Kura–Araxes culture. Kura–Araxes culture was influenced by North-Mesopotamian cultures.

"In the Armenian hypothesis of Indo-European origins, this culture (and perhaps that of the Maykop culture) is identified with the speakers of the Anatolian languages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura-Araxes_culture

Influencedurartu1.PNG


Writing exists not so long time and it was invented in West Asia. Nobody knows which languages existed in West Asia before the writing system was invented.

A lot Anatolian and West Asian Indo-European languages disappeared. It's believed that even before the Medes and other Iranic tribes arrived in Kurdistan, people in Kurdistan spoke a different Indo-European language.

What I'm trying to say that mayor Indo-European (and Hurrian and Semitic civilizations) in West Asia exterminated all other small native Indo-European languages.

West Asia was homeland of many extinct Anatolian Indo-European languages.
 
Civilization started in West Asia and NOT in the Steppes.


That is complete old fashion theory. Southeastern Europe culture of Varna and Cucuteni Triploje were more advanced that their mesopotamian counterpart (before the Uruk period). Vinca culture even invented writting before Sumer but unfortunately we can currently not decipher it.

The proto Kurgan people of Sredny stog had their copper from Southeastern Europe, not the Caucasus.
In fact all the Western branch of IE had direct contact withe late cucuteni Trypolje culture while the contact with Transcaucasia and Mesopotamia were indirect and distant.


Maykop culture influenced Yamna culture, and Maykop culture was in turn influenced by Kura–Araxes culture. Kura–Araxes culture was influenced by North-Mesopotamian cultures.

Where do you think maykop people had their Kurgan and their horses from??
Kurgan were first erected in the Steppe since Sredny Stog II that is to say before Maykop culture. Maykop culture is an ofshoot of the Steppe Kurgan culture over a Caucasian population that must have spoke a Caucasian language like today.
late Cucuteni Trypolje culture had far more effect on yamnaya people than maykop. Read david Anthony The Horse, the Wheel and the language. there is a chapter about the origin of Western ie language in which he never mentions the Maykop culture. The western IE languages originated in Yamnaya and its ofshoot, Usatovo (southern Ukraine) in particular.
And as I already said, Maykop culture is not even considered the ancestor of the Anatolian branch of the IE languages. It is an extinct branch of the eraly IE expansion. If Maykop culture really was the origin of any modern IE language, we should see Caucasian loanwords or cognates like we see with Uralic language family.


and Maykop culture was in turn influenced by Kura–Araxes culture.

Kura Araxes stared after Maykop and it was even less kurganized than Maykop. The IE never managed to impose their language over the local folks that's why Indo European has never been spoken in the area.

"In the Armenian hypothesis of Indo-European origins, this culture (and perhaps that of the Maykop culture) is identified with the speakers of the Anatolian languages."



Why didn't you quote the first part of theis wikipedia article? the languages of Maykop and Kuro Arax were more like:

Ethno-Linguistic Makeup
Hurrian and Urartian elements are quite probable, as are Northeast Caucasian ones. Some authors subsume Hurrians and Urartians under Northeast Caucasian as well as part of the Alarodian theory [23]. The presence of Kartvelian languages was also highly probable. Influences of Semitic languages and Indo-European languages are also highly possible, though the presence of the languages on the lands of the Kura-Araxes culture is more controversial.


Writing exists not so long time and it was invented in West Asia.


It was probably invented earlier in Vinca culture, Southeastern Europe.


What I'm trying to say that mayor Indo-European (and Hurrian and Semitic civilizations) in West Asia exterminated all other small native Indo-European languages.

OK and by accident they only kept the non Indo European languages alive.

West Asia was homeland of many extinct Anatolian Indo-Euroepan languages.

Not according to most scholars who favour a Balkanic hypothesis or west steppic : Suvorovo, Cernavoda...
 
Self designation has its value, but for me, less than a broader picture and historical facts, especially in today's populations, and populations with a relatively recent mix. How one feels and declares in terms of belonging to, is a fair contribution, but I can hardly forget a recent correlation and a historical fact that some Russians chose to live life close to Caucasian cultures and were clearly and strongly influenced by them.

The question of historical correlation between Russians and Kabardinians still holds its value. It speaks of times when a significant number of R1a and G correlated, and it happened relatively recently. Why this matters to me more than someones feeling of belonging to some group?

Well, one can argue that after the initial introduction of two different cultures, a realtively unknown but strongly influential in terms of dress code, manners, weapons and a way of live attracted the other group enough to make settlements alongside this group and eventually influenced ones self designation.

So to me it is clear only to acknowledge the influence of Russian dna in parts of N Caucasus which is historically recent.

This does not mean that there were no R1a before that, but I believe a lot less than this survey found. Saying otherwise simply excludes recent historical influx of people. And clearly for me, that is not enough to believe a language contribution in Caucasian languages, if off course ancient bones don't prove otherwise. In that case I would believe.

that is the major problem of R1a M-17
as IE it is considered as Scythian or even pre-Scythian but it is heavy in many non IE populations
 
That is complete old fashion theory. Southeastern Europe culture of Varna and Cucuteni Triploje were more advanced that their mesopotamian counterpart (before the Uruk period). Vinca culture even invented writting before Sumer but unfortunately we can currently not decipher it.

The proto Kurgan people of Sredny stog had their copper from Southeastern Europe, not the Caucasus.
In fact all the Western branch of IE had direct contact withe late cucuteni Trypolje culture while the contact with Transcaucasia and Mesopotamia were indirect and distant.




Where do you think maykop people had their Kurgan and their horses from??
Kurgan were first erected in the Steppe since Sredny Stog II that is to say before Maykop culture. Maykop culture is an ofshoot of the Steppe Kurgan culture over a Caucasian population that must have spoke a Caucasian language like today.
late Cucuteni Trypolje culture had far more effect on yamnaya people than maykop. Read david Anthony The Horse, the Wheel and the language. there is a chapter about the origin of Western ie language in which he never mentions the Maykop culture. The western IE languages originated in Yamnaya and its ofshoot, Usatovo (southern Ukraine) in particular.
And as I already said, Maykop culture is not even considered the ancestor of the Anatolian branch of the IE languages. It is an extinct branch of the eraly IE expansion. If Maykop culture really was the origin of any modern IE language, we should see Caucasian loanwords or cognates like we see with Uralic language family.




Kura Araxes stared after Maykop and it was even less kurganized than Maykop. The IE never managed to impose their language over the local folks that's why Indo European has never been spoken in the area.





Why didn't you quote the first part of theis wikipedia article? the languages of Maykop and Kuro Arax were more like:







It was probably invented earlier in Vinca culture, Southeastern Europe.




OK and by accident they only kept the non Indo European languages alive.



Not according to most scholars who favour a Balkanic hypothesis or west steppic : Suvorovo, Cernavoda...

that is one of the major 3 theories

there are many

read Colin renfrew
 
If I is so strongly associated with IE in Iran, why do you give preference to R? Do you think I came later? That it was part of historical migrations as it is part of a small minority in Iran?

I certainly doesn't have the reach to be the Indo-European haplogroup, naturally, and almost all I haplogroup people speak an IE language today, but it is notable they have the highest correlation.

So far, the Asian Haplogroup I we've done precise tests on have indicated that they more likely represent gene flow from Europe to Asia, rather than the other way around, as we would expect with the spread of IE. Under that theory, it's mainly a coincidence that the highest Haplogroup I groups in Asia (Armenians and Kurds mainly) are IE.
 
Sparkey - due to recent back-flow?

Most linguist believe in the close relationship PIE had with Proto-Kartvelian, but there is still tremendous debate on how close PIE was to Proto-Uralic. From my own readings I would side with a late interaction with Uralic (Scythian). PIE was a metal mountain folk language developed in the early bronze age around south eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, and northern Iran around the Caspian Sea. This is my personal opinion based on the readings I've done. I'm not a linguist, archeologist, or historian so I could be very wrong. I believe that the need for prestigious metal goods for ceremony and status drove the expansion of PIE as specialists first, then conquers second.
 
That is complete old fashion theory. Southeastern Europe culture of Varna and Cucuteni Triploje were more advanced that their mesopotamian counterpart (before the Uruk period). Vinca culture even invented writting before Sumer but unfortunately we can currently not decipher it.

The proto Kurgan people of Sredny stog had their copper from Southeastern Europe, not the Caucasus.
In fact all the Western branch of IE had direct contact withe late cucuteni Trypolje culture while the contact with Transcaucasia and Mesopotamia were indirect and distant.

Where do you think maykop people had their Kurgan and their horses from??
Kurgan were first erected in the Steppe since Sredny Stog II that is to say before Maykop culture. Maykop culture is an ofshoot of the Steppe Kurgan culture over a Caucasian population that must have spoke a Caucasian language like today.
late Cucuteni Trypolje culture had far more effect on yamnaya people than maykop. Read david Anthony The Horse, the Wheel and the language. there is a chapter about the origin of Western ie language in which he never mentions the Maykop culture. The western IE languages originated in Yamnaya and its ofshoot, Usatovo (southern Ukraine) in particular.
And as I already said, Maykop culture is not even considered the ancestor of the Anatolian branch of the IE languages. It is an extinct branch of the eraly IE expansion. If Maykop culture really was the origin of any modern IE language, we should see Caucasian loanwords or cognates like we see with Uralic language family.

Kura Araxes stared after Maykop and it was even less kurganized than Maykop. The IE never managed to impose their language over the local folks that's why Indo European has never been spoken in the area.

Why didn't you quote the first part of theis wikipedia article? the languages of Maykop and Kuro Arax were more like:

It was probably invented earlier in Vinca culture, Southeastern Europe.

OK and by accident they only kept the non Indo European languages alive.

Not according to most scholars who favour a Balkanic hypothesis or west steppic : Suvorovo, Cernavoda...
Sorry, but what are you talking about?

T
housands of years ago vegetation in West Asia on the map under the Southern Caucasus was completely different than nowadays.

Horses were first tamed in West Asia by Neolithic farmers and not in the steppes. Oldest example of that has been found in the Arabian Peninsula.

Oldest Civilizations has been found in the Mesopotamia on the banks of Tigris and Euphrates.
Centres_of_origin_and_spread_of_agriculture.svg


Mesopotamia_Per%C3%ADodo_6.PNG


Indo-Europeans are very young compared to these Civilizations!
 
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Sorry, but what are you talking about


I'm just trying to tell you that Kurgan people were "civilized" from Southeastern Europe and not West Asia but you have apparently never heard of Cucuteni or Vinca so I will stop.


 
Mon ami,

According to the wiki Cucuteni-Trypillian culture is only from 5500 B.C. to 2750 B.C..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

Hassuna and Halaf cultures are much older.


Also, did you know that the oldest religious "artificial burial hills" (KURGANS) were found in the Gobekli Tepe (9559 B.C.), West Asia?

There are a number of radiocarbon dates (presented with one standard deviation errors and calibrations to BC):

Lab-Number
Date BP
Cal BC
Context
Ua-19561
8430 ± 80
7560–7370
enclosure C
Ua-19562
8960 ± 85
8280–7970
enclosure B
Hd-20025
9452 ± 73
9110–8620
Layer III
Hd-20036
9559 ± 53
9130–8800
Layer III

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

http-www.ahrtp.com-EG-Images2-Gopekli-Tepe-3circles-artist-opt600x492.img_assist_custom-600x491.jpg
 

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