IE language originated from who?R1a or R1b?

[kgnju]

IE language originated from who?R1a or R1b?Thank you for any information!

[Maciamo]

Impossible to know at the moment. Proto-IE could possibly be a hybrid of North Anatolian R1b1b language and Pontic steppe R1a1a language, just like English is a hybrid of Anglo-Saxon and Medieval French. This would explain why Hittite, the oldest recorded IE language, is so different from other branches of IE languages. Hittite would be the direct descendant of Anatolian R1b1b's language. But that's just a hypothesis.

[kgnju]

Thank you for your information,Maciamo!Could it be possible that proto-IE is the language of the oldest HG R(included R1a and R1b of course) in about 25000ybp?

[willy]

I am not sure the Hittites were R1b1b2 ? but G2a3b1 more probably

[Maciamo]

Could it be possible that proto-IE is the language of the oldest HG R(included R1a and R1b of course) in about 25000ybp?

25,000 years is too old for a language to survive. But it is possible that Proto-IE evolved from an ancestral tribal language of R* hunter-gatherers. Even if it did, there might not be any resemblance left with the original after so many millennia.

[Maciamo]

I am not sure the Hittites were R1b1b2 ? but G2a3b1 more probably

The Hittite elite probably included R1b1b1, R1b1b2, G2a3b1 and perhaps even R1a1a. The people they ruled comprised many more haplogroups (E1b1b, J2, other clades of G and R1b1).

[Yetos]

well R1a is a strong candidate,

But considering Europe I might say That I2 is very strong,
as also the J2 that is spread from India to Europe,

the question is that
1) IE is a Caucasian language?
that spread from North and then to south?

2 is a Central asian (afgan) language that spread from North to south?

3) an Indian language?

4) a south caucas that created around Laz area and spread, crating Greco-Aryan Sansqrit and the other languages?
but from South to North replacing Saami Basques and other but kept elements and sounds.


5) a semi-caucas, semi-Antolian, or a semi caucas semi-Indian.

Personally I believe that it is a 2 wave expand language south Caucasian language that in old world expand from minor asia and middle east to east and west (mediterranean-India) , and then another wave (at least for europe) the Northen wave which came from East to west,

[bertrand]

Macimo,
the book "the Wheel, the horse and the language" shows, in my opinion convincing evidence that the PIE of Anatolia were in fact immigrants from the pontic-caspian steppes. So i believe that the steppes is the best candidate for the origin of PIE.

In addition, as i already pointed out, my research tend to indicate that among the steppe people (PIE) that evolved after 4000BC, two branches enventually appeared around 3000BC; a western branch (in western Ukraine) that would give birth to the Centum languages and an eastern branch (around the lower Volga) that would give birth the satem languages (Eastern European languages and Indo-iranian languages).

The centum people appear to have been predominently R1b while the satem people appear to have been almost exclusively R1a.

[Asturrulumbo]

The centum people appear to have been predominently R1b while the satem people appear to have been almost exclusively R1a.

That doesn't seem to be always the case, for example the Tocharians were Centum and they were predominantly R1a (for example, the Tarim Mummies were R1a).

[Taranis]

That doesn't seem to be always the case, for example the Tocharians were Centum and they were predominantly R1a (for example, the Tarim Mummies were R1a).

This is true. In addition, there is reasonable reason to assume that the Centum-Satum split did not occur until the late 3rd / early 2nd millennium BC.

[bertrand]

Guys,
I already addressed the issue of the Tocharians in a previous post i believe.
The tocharians, as expected were R1a. The reason why they are centum is because the development of the Satem distinction happened later, around 3000BC, while the Tocharian emigrated around 3700BC.
(See "the Wheel the horse and the language")

[Goga]

Possible, but who was the first? Because there is 18,000 years distance between R1b and R1a and both haplogroups didn't mix with each other 3000 BCE, because there's very little R1a in Western Europe (Atlantic coast) and there is very little R1b in India!

So the carriers of one of these two haplogroups must be the first speakers of an proto-Indo-European language.
Once again, it's impossible that R1b and R1a lived togehter since there is very little R1b in India and very little R1a in West Europe!

[Taranis]

Guys,
I already addressed the issue of the Tocharians in a previous post i believe.
The tocharians, as expected were R1a. The reason why they are centum is because the development of the Satem distinction happened later, around 3000BC, while the Tocharian emigrated around 3700BC.
(See "the Wheel the horse and the language")

3000 BC is too early in my opinion, as this would predate the Corded Ware period.

[bertrand]

[QUOTE=Goga;385617]Possible, but who was the first? Because there is 18,000 years distance between R1b and R1a and both haplogroups didn't mix with each other 3000 BCE, because there's very little R1a in Western Europe (Atlantic coast) and there is very little R1b in India![QUOTE]

Possible, but who was the first? Because there is 18,000 years distance between R1b and R1a and both haplogroups didn't mix with each other 3000 BCE, because there's very little R1a in Western Europe (Atlantic coast) and there is very little R1b in India!

Goga,
in his book David Anthony shows that the PIE language has strong commonalities with the proto language of the Finns who used to live in the Ural mountains. Myres et al also shows that R1bs left a mark in the territory of the Bashkirs. further back, you can see the origins of the R haplogroup in Nothern Pakistan (please study for instance the haplogroup R2).

As a result it seems pretty clear to me that after the end of the Ice Age, R1bs moved north from Northern Pakistan toward the Urals (bashkirs) where they stayed for a while. Around 8000BC they started moving down the Volga and then toward the Dnieper (Dnieper Rapids). Later, after the domestication of the horse they spread through the ukrainian plains. Evidence also suggests that they developed then the mutation of lactose tolerance which i believe gave them an edge in their conquest (around 3000BC) of the Danube valley.

R1a is a little more difficult to study because as you know there was a massive back migration around 2700BC from eastern Ukraine (Volga) toward the Ural and down toward India again. As a result, this back migration erased the signs of the first migration. Yet, since as you pointed out, R1a was also part of the PIE initial group, I suppose that their migration north from Pakistan to the Urals and down the Volga was in line with that of the R1bs, perhaps just a little later, perhaps as a second wave. They settled mostly in eastern Ukraine. After most of the R1bs had moved up the Danube toward northern and western Europe after 3000BC, R1a migrated toward Eastern Europe and back to the Urals. Of course Tocharians had left earlier (around 3700BC) and anatolians probably around 4000BC from the western end.

Taranis,
David anthony also shows the steps of the migration up the Danube after 3000BC. The migration was very slow and went through the balkans, Carthatian mountains and later arrived in Eastern Hungary. There was probably several waves and the bulk of them (the Tumuli culture) only arrived in Western German and Alsace around 2500-2300BC.

[Taranis]

Taranis,
David anthony also shows the steps of the migration up the Danube after 3000BC. The migration was very slow and went through the balkans, Carthatian mountains and later arrived in Eastern Hungary. There was probably several waves and the bulk of them (the Tumuli culture) only arrived in Western German and Alsace around 2500-2300BC.

It does not matter. There is a common Germanic-Balto-Slavic vocabulary (notably the word for 'gold') which must predate the Centum-Satem split because the words relevant to it are subject to Centumization and Satemization, respectively. The only archaeological culture that we can conceive to match with the above pattern is the Corded Ware Culture. As a result, the Centum-Satem split must have occured after the Corded Ware period.

On the flip side, the split cannot have occured much later because by the mid-2nd millennium BC, we do have both Centum and Satem languages attested (Mycenean Greek for the former, and Indo-Iranic loanwords found in Mitanni for the latter).

[Yetos]

Although I still keep believing that Centum and Satem has to do with a substractum of Earlier language,

For example Europe,
In south
the more west the more Basques so IE language is absorving sounds of elder languages and becomes Centum,
the more North
IE absorbs Saami sounds so becomes more Germanic with rr and other complicated forms,

ENVIROMENT HAS MUCH TO DO WITH LANGUAGE,

the more the cold areas the less the vowel
why? cause warm air leaves the body
the more the south the more the vowels
why cause leaving warm air cools the body,

that is why slavic languages are missing the ones in Greek called μακρα (makra) the 2 times long vowels exist in Greek
like the dative Greek τωι πηλωι (sounds like tooi peelooi) were ω is 1,5 o or 2 o
or big words like ωτορινιλαρυγγολογος (9 syllabes)

compare an African language how many vowels complex and a Slavic one complex,

[NickP]

I'm assuming R1a, but not necessarily. I heard the original Indo-European may have been a fusion of Caucasus language elements with even some Finno-Ugric input, but this is uncertain.

[Goga]

I believe it was J2 (+G2a & T). But if It wasn't J2 that Indo-Europized R1b and R1a, I think that R1b folks Indo-Europized R1a folks from the Balkans and Northern Caucasus. Indo-European R1b folks migrated into Europe via the Balkans and the Caucasus and settled in Central Europe first.

[spongetaro]

I believe it was J2 (+G2a & T). But if It wasn't J2 that Indo-Europized R1b and R1a, I think that R1b folks Indo-Europized R1a folks from the Balkans and Northern Caucasus. Indo-European R1b folks migrated into Europe via the Balkans and the Caucasus and settled in Central Europe first.

Why don't you think that R1a are the original IE speakers? The proto IE culture originated on the Volga then after on the north Black sea shores, not the other way round. Also, Indo european is closer to Uralic languages than to Caucasian one (be it North Caucasian, Kartvelian etc). In fact, almost all the area asscoiated with J2 in the middle east were non IE (Kartvelian, Hurrian, Sumerian, Semitic, Elamite, North east Caucsian, Hattian etc...).

[sparkey]

Wojewoda at Forum Biodiversity posted this excellent correlation coefficient chart, relating haplogroups to IE vs. non-IE speaking groups in Iran (higher number = more correlation with IE):

I M170 0,28
R1a M17 0,24
R M207 0,21
L M357 0,14
R1b M73 0,14
J2 M12 0,13
R1b M269 0,05
L M76 0,03
C M216 0,03
R2 M124 0,02
E M78 0,01
O M175 0,00
H M69 0,00
J2 M47 -0,05
F M89 -0,05
N LLY22g -0,06
B M60 -0,08
R1b M343 -0,09
L M317 -0,14
G M201 -0,16
J2 M92 -0,16
R1 M173 -0,17
Q M242 -0,19
J2 M67 -0,19
E M81 -0,19
J2 M410 -0,20
E M75 -0,20
NO M214 -0,22
E M33 -0,22
P M74 -0,22
J2 M172 -0,23
E P2 -0,25
E M2 -0,27
Y*(xBT) M91 -0,31
E M35 -0,32
J1 M267 -0,32
T M70 -0,41
E M123 -0,45
J1 PAGE08 -0,52

Basically, of the usual suspects, R1a has the strongest link to IE speaking in Iran, although J2b (not so much J2a), R1b-M73, and R1b-M269 have correlations, as well. That seems to support the idea that R1a is "the" IE marker, with J2b and certain R1b subclades being historically minority clades (or later absorbed clades) within the overall IE population, having their spreads also associated with the spread of IE, but not quite as exclusively.

[Yetos]

Why don't you think that R1a are the original IE speakers? The proto IE culture originated on the Volga then after on the north Black sea shores, not the other way round. Also, Indo european is closer to Uralic languages than to Caucasian one (be it North Caucasian, Kartvelian etc). In fact, almost all the area asscoiated with J2 in the middle east were non IE (Kartvelian, Hurrian, Sumerian, Semitic, Elamite, North east Caucsian, Hattian etc...).

What about the lost Anatolian Languages Hettit etc, Greek Armenian Aryan (kurdish) Persian Indian (Sanshqrit) Tocharian etc who belong to the Near-East / Middle East group

On the other Hand what about Cabardinians who have significant R1a and the rest Turkic populations

[ebAmerican]

IE language originated from who?R1a or R1b?Thank you for any information!

Impossible to tell. PIE originated in the womb of nations with proto kartvelian and proto Afroasiatic. The connection with Uralic is a lot later with the expansion of indo-Irainian into the step. PIE could be associated with any west Asian Haplogroup.

[JFWR]

Wojewoda at Forum Biodiversity posted this excellent correlation coefficient chart, relating haplogroups to IE vs. non-IE speaking groups in Iran (higher number = more correlation with IE):



Basically, of the usual suspects, R1a has the strongest link to IE speaking in Iran, although J2b (not so much J2a), R1b-M73, and R1b-M269 have correlations, as well. That seems to support the idea that R1a is "the" IE marker, with J2b and certain R1b subclades being historically minority clades (or later absorbed clades) within the overall IE population, having their spreads also associated with the spread of IE, but not quite as exclusively.

I'm a bit confused here, Sparkey. You said the higher the number, the greater correlation, but the highest numbers are:

I M170 0,28
R1a M17 0,24
R M207 0,21
L M357 0,14
R1b M73 0,14

If I is so strongly associated with IE in Iran, why do you give preference to R? Do you think I came later? That it was part of historical migrations as it is part of a small minority in Iran?

I certainly doesn't have the reach to be the Indo-European haplogroup, naturally, and almost all I haplogroup people speak an IE language today, but it is notable they have the highest correlation.

[spongetaro]

What about the lost Anatolian Languages Hettit etc, Greek Armenian Aryan (kurdish) Persian Indian (Sanshqrit) Tocharian etc who belong to the Near-East / Middle East group

The Tarimm mummies were tested R1a, the Northern Indian (Aryan, Sanshqrit) are R1a, the Kurdish people have sizeable amount of R1a.

It is true that Hittites in Anatolia, Aemenian and Greeks lack R1a.

On the other Hand what about Cabardinians who have significant R1a and the rest Turkic populations

Well for the Turks it is simple, they took most of the lands of the previous Indo Iranian people.
As for the Cantabrians, I have no idea. Maybe the two Iberians mesolithic folks that proved to be more "Northern Europe" than the current Iberians may hve been early R1a in the area.

[Goga]

Why don't you think that R1a are the original IE speakers? The proto IE culture originated on the Volga then after on the north Black sea shores, not the other way round. Also, Indo european is closer to Uralic languages than to Caucasian one (be it North Caucasian, Kartvelian etc). In fact, almost all the area asscoiated with J2 in the middle east were non IE (Kartvelian, Hurrian, Sumerian, Semitic, Elamite, North east Caucsian, Hattian etc...).

According to me the proto-IE culture originated somewhere around the Caucasus with cultures related to Maikop and Yamna cultures.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

Like the user 'ebAmerican' wrote the interaction between OLD Indo-European (and NOT 'proto')and Uralic languages occurred much later.

Also Dienkes explained this very well and according to him there're close links between proto-Indo-European and North Caucasian languages.

here you can find his theory and articles about it: http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/...caucasian.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/...atures-in.html


Also Northeast Europeans were already mixed with the Uralic East Asians before Indo-European folks arrived there.
So Indo-Europeans (Caucasoids) Indo-Europized native European-Uralic (Europoid) folks!

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/...ixture-in.html