Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

[how yes no 3]

from
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post399077

Serdi and Scordisci are both celtic tribes in the balkans, they have nothing to do with Ser. The triballi became the Serbs after these celtic tribes destroyed the Triballi.
Serdi resided in modern day Bulgaria - basically the capital area of Sofia and the Scordisci where NW of them.

that is possible scenario...

but not very likely...


Serbs came to Balkan from area of Bohemia/Bavaria... question is where they came from to that area....likely guess is from area north of northwest Carpathians... which fits well with birth place of Slavs around Vistula...



Russian primary chronicle does however list Serbs among Danubian Slavs who migrated to Vistula area when pushed from Danube by expanding Roman empire...


Danubian Slavs are described to live along Danube in Hungary and Bulgaria of moment of writing Primary chronicle which was around year 1113 when Bulgaria was further to north encompassing also most of north Serbia and Hungary was in control of area of Vojvodina (north province of Serbia)... this is exactly Scordisci area prior to Roman expansion....



in fact you can see at 1AD that they have already retreated to north....


attacked people typically retreat to closest mountains that they can defend...it makes sense that Scordisci have retreated along Danube and towards north-west Carpathians and north from that using northwest Carpathians as defendable obstacle to spread of Roman empire.... hence using this logic they would end up in south Poland and Slovakia...from there expansion to east Germany and Czech republic makes sense in times when those areas are more or less vacant due to migrations of Germanic people (around 5th century)





now if thracanized Scord+isci were known as Serd+i, than slavicized Serdi would easily give Serb+i




it is unlikely that Tribali would take the path up the Danube and into northwest Carpathians when moving away from expanding Roman empire...





i think that Tribali either stayed (they already lived in highlands and were thus relatively isolated from direct influence of Roman empire that rulled over them) and melted in Romanized populations or moved towards Black sea and east Carpathians.. or both..



considering their latin borrowings comming from north of Jirecek line in fact being the same as in area of Romania,



it is more likely for Albanians to origin from Tribali that merged into Roman empire and than later retreated to mountains of Albania when Roman empire was crumbling and nations like Huns, Goths and Avars were terrorizing Balkan area...... in Albanian word "ballë" = front, facade
3-balli is thus facade of their living space, that is borderland with three other ethnic groups....

partially romanized Tribali probably merged with partially romanized Dardanians to give (D)Ardanasi-> Arbanasi (which is medieval name of Albanians)

note here same change from 'rd' to 'rb' as in Serdi->Serbi... this could be some issue in satem branch of IE

Illyrians have nothing to do with Albanians... few preserved Illyrian words whose meaning is known match Slavic much much better than Albanian... Illyrians are dinaric race like south Slavs, Albaians are east mediteranean.... Illyrians are tribes that wage wars among themselves all the time like south Slavs do, Albanians are firmly united despite religion differences...iIlyrians being proto-Slavic people is explanation why there are no borrowings from Albanian in Bosnia and Croatia, but there are lot of borrowings from Slavic in Albanian...

The medieval nobility of Serbs always took the triballi as their origins..

never heard of that...
some Byzantine historians did call Serbs Triballi though...
but they also attributed ancient names to some other people based on the current location...
so, this may be about location of Tribali north of their empire.....

as for Croats, they may origin from Carpi that moved from Black sea towards west (pressed by Roman empire from south and Huns from east) along east Carpathians....
eventually they occupied south of Poland neighnbouring Serbs...there their language started merging..... according to De administrando imperio, 'white Serbia' borders state of Franks on west and 'white Croatia' on east....

[zanipolo]

never heard of that...
some Byzantine historians did call Serbs Triballi though...
but they also attributed ancient names to some other people based on the current location...
so, this may be about location of Tribali north of their empire.....

as for Croats, they may origin from Carpi that moved from Black sea towards west (pressed by Roman empire from south and Huns from east) along east Carpathians....
eventually they occupied south of Poland neighnbouring Serbs...there their language started merging..... according to De administrando imperio, 'white Serbia' borders state of Franks on west and 'white Croatia' on east....

from the net

in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."^[23] or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles

With the beginning of the First Serbian Uprising, the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia

The seal of the Serbian parliament has the Serbian cross and the Triballi boar.

For the fourteenth century writers Pachymeres, Gregoras, Metochites and Kantakouzenos the Serbs were Triballi.

The only historical fact is that in 577 CE , 100000 slavs arrived in the balkans, ..........It does not say serbs, croats or anything else......the ancient triballi or what was left of them where slavitized by language and became serbians. Byzantine historians even noted this. The serbians are not all pure blooded slavs from polish lands, not today, not in the medieval times and not in the dark ages period.

Why should I accept the term slav to any other people except poles and ukraines ?.......being called or saying you are slav due to linguistic knowledge of the slavic tongue clearly distorts ancient history

[Yetos]

How Yes No?

the HG E Serbs came from Bohemia Moravia?
or you believe that Nis Leskovac etc are not Serbians?

[how yes no 3]

The only historical fact is that in 577 CE , 100000 slavs arrived in the balkans, ..........It does not say serbs, croats or anything else.....

source?

only source that speaks in details about the settlement of Slavs on Balkan is De administrando imperio... it says that they have settled desolated lands...
and it speaks of Serbs and Croats not of Slavs in general...

the ancient triballi or what was left of them where slavitized by language and became serbians. Byzantine historians even noted this. The serbians are not all pure blooded slavs from polish lands, not today, not in the medieval times and not in the dark ages period.

Why should I accept the term slav to any other people except poles and ukraines ?.......being called or saying you are slav due to linguistic knowledge of the slavic tongue clearly distorts ancient history

How Yes No?

the HG E Serbs came from Bohemia Moravia?
or you believe that Nis Leskovac etc are not Serbians?

Haplogroup E comes from assimilated Tribali and Dardanians...

part of it was already absorbed by Scordisci....


regarding idea that Scordisci did carry some Ewith them.....

south and east Germany and west of Czech republic is where Serbs come from to Balkan in 6th century (probably after living there for relatively short period) ..in east and south Germany E1b1 is 7.5% and 8% (larger than in Croatia)...Czech republic has 6% (same as Croatia), and for Serb related E1b1 one should search only in west Bohemia...of course I do not claim that much of this E origin from Serbs... but some E might have been carried from Germany to Serbia (by Serbs) and other way around (by Scordisci)...
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

in fact, looking at Czech republic
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...20500/abstract

we can see that percentage of I2a-Din dramatically rises (from 4.1% to 9.2% and 14,6%) and E percentage dramatically drops (from 8.2% to 4.2% and 1.5%) in area (west parts of Bohemia) from where Serbs come to Balkan...

indicating that haplogroup E in Serbs is more or less exclusively obtained after settling in Serbia, while I2a-Din was carried by them...

but if Serbs did not carry any significant percentage of haplogroup E to Balkan, how come there is so big difference in haplogroup E in modern Serbs and Croats?


in Croatia and Bosnia haplogroup E is much less than in Serbia, FYRM and Montenegro because Illyrians were not haplogroup E people while Tribali and Dardanians were E dominant people....

Bosnia is like one big wood with lot of mountains....its so easy for any population to survive there by hiding... but we are led to believe that Illyrians were wiped out from Bosnia and Croatia.... and if pockets of them survived and if their language was like Albanian, where are loan words from Albanian in Croatia and Bosnia? there are no loan words from Albanian there...but Albania is full of Slavic place names and Albanian is full of Slavic words...
this can be interpreted only by population speaking a language alike to Slavic living there before Albanians...

[Gosh]

How Yes No?

the HG E Serbs came from Bohemia Moravia?
or you believe that Nis Leskovac etc are not Serbians?

They are national Serbs but not ethnic. They mainly belong to pre-slavic population in Balkans.

The same thing as I2a or R1a in Greece. Are they Greeks today? Yes, they are!

[how yes no 3]

They are national Serbs but not ethnic. They mainly belong to pre-slavic population in Balkans.

The same thing as I2a or R1a in Greece. Are they Greeks today? Yes, they are!

they are ethnic Serbs...
they do not genetically origin from proto Serbs in direct male line (looking at father of father of father of father...in times when proto-Serbs settled Balkans)...that's all..

even if you stress genetics origin, I do not expect that looking at autosomal genetics Serbs carrying haplogroup E yDNA really differ much or at all from the rest of Serbs...

YDNA haplogroups make sense only for tracing movements of big groups of people...they have not much value for establishing some personal genetic traits...

[zanipolo]

source?

only source that speaks in details about the settlement of Slavs on Balkan is De administrando imperio... it says that they have settled desolated lands...
and it speaks of Serbs and Croats not of Slavs in general...


Haplogroup E comes from assimilated Tribali and Dardanians...

part of it was already absorbed by Scordisci....


regarding idea that Scordisci did carry some Ewith them.....

south and east Germany and west of Czech republic is where Serbs come from to Balkan in 6th century (probably after living there for relatively short period) ..in east and south Germany E1b1 is 7.5% and 8% (larger than in Croatia)...Czech republic has 6% (same as Croatia), and for Serb related E1b1 one should search only in west Bohemia...of course I do not claim that much of this E origin from Serbs... but some E might have been carried from Germany to Serbia (by Serbs) and other way around (by Scordisci)...
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

in fact, looking at Czech republic
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...20500/abstract

we can see that percentage of I2a-Din dramatically rises (from 4.1% to 9.2% and 14,6%) and E percentage dramatically drops (from 8.2% to 4.2% and 1.5%) in area (west parts of Bohemia) from where Serbs come to Balkan...

indicating that haplogroup E in Serbs is more or less exclusively obtained after settling in Serbia, while I2a-Din was carried by them...

but if Serbs did not carry any significant percentage of haplogroup E to Balkan, how come there is so big difference in haplogroup E in modern Serbs and Croats?


in Croatia and Bosnia haplogroup E is much less than in Serbia, FYRM and Montenegro because Illyrians were not haplogroup E people while Tribali and Dardanians were E dominant people....

Bosnia is like one big wood with lot of mountains....its so easy for any population to survive there by hiding... but we are led to believe that Illyrians were wiped out from Bosnia and Croatia.... and if pockets of them survived and if their language was like Albanian, where are loan words from Albanian in Croatia and Bosnia? there are no loan words from Albanian there...but Albania is full of Slavic place names and Albanian is full of Slavic words...
this can be interpreted only by population speaking a language alike to Slavic living there before Albanians...

you are too nationalistic for this forum. language plays no part in ethnicy...as an example ,
to be Italian you have to qualify for jure sanguinis, this is a ethnicty law which states that a Italian as a people is only valid from 1861, so if your parents left italy prior to 1861, regardless if your family was there for a 1000years you cannot be Italian. All people prior to 1861 where not Italian.
What does this mean for us in this forum, well the term Italian prior to 1861 referred to a geographical people that was living in Italy, the term is like being called, British, Iberian, Scandinavian, etc...these names are not people just an area. The reason for this is because the Italian government agrees that there where no Italians prior to 1861.

You on the other hand are claiming to be a serb of slavic origin purely because the serbs speak a slavic tongue, you ignore all ancient people in the area which is Serbia now.
being called or saying you are slav due to linguistic knowledge of the slavic tongue clearly distorts ancient history

[Yetos]

They are national Serbs but not ethnic. They mainly belong to pre-slavic population in Balkans.

The same thing as I2a or R1a in Greece. Are they Greeks today? Yes, they are!

I Know I just ask How Yes NO cause sometimes has some 'strange' views.
almost denying in another post the Trballi contribution to modern Serbian population.

[Diurpaneus]

from
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post399077





Serbs came to Balkan from area of Bohemia/Bavaria... question is where they came from to that area....likely guess is from area north of northwest Carpathians... which fits well with birth place of Slavs around Vistula...

The Proto-Slavs were part of Zarubintsy Culture, and after formed Kiev culture.
They expand west and southwest absorbing a lot of Sarmatian,Dacian, and Germanic communities.


Here is some Dacian archaeological evidence, in the future Slavic area:


http://uw.academia.edu/MarcinRudnick...Central_Poland

http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/1mp...42de38e174.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setidava

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burs_(Dacia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli


Also, Dacian tribe Biessi(see Burs article),and Beskids mountains.

Romanian substratum word "magura" means"high hill"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamagurie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spi%C5%A1sk%C3%A1_Magura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podhale-Magura_Area

http://dexonline.ro/definitie/m%C4%8...4%83/paradigma


an interesting analysis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/

[zanipolo]

The Proto-Slavs were part of Zarubintsy Culture, and after formed Kiev culture.
They expand west and southwest absorbing a lot of Sarmatian,Dacian, and Germanic communities.


Here is some Dacian archaeological evidence, in the future Slavic area:


http://uw.academia.edu/MarcinRudnick...Central_Poland

http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/1mp...42de38e174.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setidava

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burs_(Dacia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli


Also, Dacian tribe Biessi(see Burs article),and Beskids mountains.

Romanian substratum word "magura" means"high hill"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamagurie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spi%C5%A1sk%C3%A1_Magura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podhale-Magura_Area

http://dexonline.ro/definitie/m%C4%8...4%83/paradigma


an interesting analysis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/

We basically agree on what I have been saying in other threads that the true slavs came from around Kiev, the polish came from the east side of Kiev and migrated to modern day Poland..........of these true slavs, what numbers went into the Balkans. The best/most numbers I have is only 100,000 by Byzantine historians

[how yes no 3]

I Know I just ask How Yes NO cause sometimes has some 'strange' views.
almost denying in another post the Trballi contribution to modern Serbian population.

i am not denying contribution of Tribali to genetic pool of modern Serbs.
I deny that it is principal component, which is what Zanipolo suggests.

principal component was Slavic I2a-Din and R1a

Triballi contributed large part of haplogroup E, but far from all of it. Let us not forget that Dardanians lived roughly in Kosovo (and north Albania) area that became heart of medieval Serb state and also Dardanians contributing significantly to genetic pool of Montenegro (especially its east half) and that much of central Serbia was resettled from Montenegro....

so if I have to guess and taking into account that Triballi and Dardanians must have had also some part of components other than E, I would put contribution of Tribali to 15% and Dardanians to 10%....
.
but somewhat more than 50% comes from proto-Serbs who came from area of west Bohemia....to where they probably arrived from area north of west Carpathians around Vistula river....
what I wonder is whether the component that carried Serb name in facts origin from Scordisci.....

my argument for that is Russian primary chronicle that places Danubian Slavs and explicitly Serbs in area where Scordisci lived prior to Roman expansion, and from where they (Danubian Slavs) moved to Vistula river region...

i show that logical retreat route of Scordisci from Danube area is exactly to northwest Carpathians... I think that Scordisci (and Illyrians) carried substantial I2a-Din with some R1a and R1b... Scordisci would in very distant time be related to Sardinians and also to Sherdana....do not forget that bronze age people from Bulgaria seems to be closest match to Sardinians, and that there is significant I2a in Asia minor... do not forget that Serbian national dances (and ones of Kurds) do resemble the Sardana dance of Catalonia...my guess is that all those are derivation from some ancient dance of I2a people...

note also that I2a does have affinity with spread along Danube....note just in Serbs but also e.g. in Romania and think Bulgaria..data from west Bohemia however suggests that this was dominant component in proto-Serbs and was not new component acquired in Balkans, which further supports Russian primary chronicle that claims that proto-Serbs originally lived in Danube area and in fact exactly where we know Scordisci lived... so tribal name Serbi can origin from Scordisci/Serdi as I claim on this thread.....


reminder of Serb genetic pool is probably linked to settlers of Balkan from Roman empire, Greeks as main nation in east Roman empire, ancient Macedonians (as medieval Serb state was also in FYRM and in some points of time also north Greece), and reminders of Germanic tribes picked up both in Balkan and in west Bohemia/Bavaria area... ...

modern Albanians in my opinion derive culturally from Dardanians and not from Illyrians...
they also probably have Tribali genetic impact and in Albania also genetic impact of Illyrians, Greeks and Slavic settlers (also Bulgarians who controlled area for a while in medieval times)

people in Balkan in general have mixed genetic pool... there are no ethnically pure nations in Balkan and in Europe in general

[zanipolo]

i am not denying contribution of Tribali to genetic pool of modern Serbs.
I deny that it is principal component, which is what Zanipolo suggests.

principal component was Slavic I2a-Din and R1a

Triballi contributed large part of haplogroup E, but far from all of it. Let us not forget that Dardanians lived roughly in Kosovo (and north Albania) area that became heart of medieval Serb state and also Dardanians contributing significantly to genetic pool of Montenegro (especially its east half) and that much of central Serbia was resettled from Montenegro....

so if I have to guess I would put contribution of Tribali to 15% and Dardanians to 10%....
.
but somewhat more than 50% comes from proto-Serbs who came from area of west Bohemia....to where they probably arrived from area north of west Carpathians around Vistula river....
what I wonder is whether the component that carried Serb name in facts origin from Scordisci.....
my argument for that is Russian primary chronicle that places Danubian Slavs and explicitly Serbs in area where Scordisci lived prior to Roman expansion... i show that logical retreat route of Scordisci from Danube area is exactly to northwest Carpathians... I think that Scordisci (and Illyrians) carried substantial I2a-Din with some R1a and R1b...

reminder of Serb genetic pool is probably linked to settlers from Roman empire, Greeks as main nation in east Roman empire, ancient Macedonians (as medieval Serb state was also in FYRM and in some points of time also north Greece), and reminders of Germanic tribes picked up both in Balkan and in west Bohemia/Bavaria area... ...

modern Albanians in my opinion derive culturally from Dardanians and not from Illyrians...
they also probably have Tribali genetic impact and in Albania also genetic impact of Illyrians, Greeks and Slavic settlers (also Bulgarians who controlled area for a while in medieval times)

people in Balkan in general have mixed genetic pool... there are no ethnically pure nations in Balkan and in Europe in general

How old is the R1a in serbia?, i ask because I recently read that the R1a in serbia and bulgaria was brought from the Bulgar invasion which began in the north caucasus and south volga areas

[how yes no 3]

We basically agree on what I have been saying in other threads that the true slavs came from around Kiev, the polish came from the east side of Kiev and migrated to modern day Poland..........of these true slavs, what numbers went into the Balkans. The best/most numbers I have is only 100,000 by Byzantine historians

assuming that your numbers are correct, those are numbers probably linked to Slavs who settled prior to settlement of Serbs and Croats.... those Slavs were probably mostly R1a people with some I2a-Din...

100 000 is large number in those times...

I argue that what you call true Slavs are R1a people...and that I2a-Din component came to them as admixture from Balkan/Danube people like Scordisci and Dacians.... and that proto-Serbs were among most numerous carriers of that component in Slavic genetic pool....

[how yes no 3]

How old is the R1a in serbia?, i ask because I recently read that the R1a in serbia and bulgaria was brought from the Bulgar invasion which began in the north caucasus and south volga areas

R1a1 is very old in Serbia...
several articles say it is oldest in Eurasia...
but possible reason is several waves of settlements....
there is significant ancient R1a that I link to ancient Macedonians and Pelasgians, there are Slavs who came independently from Croats and Serbs and from areas deeper in east Europe, there are Sarmatians who lived in Vojvodina area, and there is component that came with Croats and Serbs....
e.g. if you compare R1a percentages in FYRM Macedonians and Albanians from west Macedonia they are not really much different... those ethnicities differ in I2a-Din... FYRM Macedonians have it around 30% and Albanians from FYRM almost none... this indicates ancient R1a pool there....R1a is also significant in north Greece, both due to ancient Macedonians and Pelasgians and due to what you call "pure" Slavic settlers of area (those tribes arrived prior to Serbs and Croats and from different areas)...

[Gosh]

R1a1 is very old in Serbia...
several articles say it is oldest in Eurasia...

False.
R1a in Serbia is mainly about 2200-2300 y.o.

[how yes no 3]

False.
R1a in Serbia is mainly about 2200-2300 y.o.

source?

regarding usage of world "mainly"...

I2a in world is mainly I2a-Din
Asia is mainly Chinese
USA is mainly white


age of R1a1 on an area is looked at by comparing all the samples....
if you want to speak of "mainly" this or that than you can throw away most age predictions for any area....


"High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia"
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera

prior to this article it was known that R1a1a7 displays high diversity among Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples (coalescent time ~11 KYA) and the most diversity of R1a1a* among Indo-Aryan andDravidian speakers (coalescent time in India ~14 KYA) (Underhill et al., 2010).

However,analysis of both chromosomes in Serbia revealed higher R1a1a7-M458 diversity than R1a1a*(xM458) diversity - respectively 14 KYA and 11 KYA.


so, pay attention - it is younger R1a branch R1a1a7 (M458) typical for Slavs and present in Ugro-Finnic people, that is in Serbia as old as
its parent branch R1a1a* is in Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers...


now if you look at table that comes with article
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7811191200073X

you will see that R1a-458 is 5.8% and R1a1a*(x458) is 14.6% of total sample....


so, on random sample of 103 individuals from Serbia
6 had R1a-M458.... when those 6 samples were compared their diversity was so big that estimated coalescent times were estimated to 14Kybp


lets assume that you are right and R1a-M458 is mainly young in Serbia.....
how likely would it be to randomly catch set of 6 samples that is unusually old?


this is science, data you tend to use are hobbyist idea of YDNA age - models used on several genealogy sites...
we can argue which model is better when one looks big populations and not individual history of a family...

but regardless of that, if you want to use samples from those databases for analysis and making qualitative statements (like this "mainly") you need to be aware that samples from those databases are not uniformly distributed... density of samples depends on number of people ready to pay large amount of money to do the testing... of course Serbia with its catastrophic economy is undersampled and not properly represented in those databases.......


simple explanation for old age of Slavic R1a in Serbia is that forefathers of Slavs originally lived in Balkan.... those could have been Pelasgians (= field people, same as Poles = field people).... in ancient times, and Danubian Slavs (Pannonians and Scordisci) in times prior to expansion of Roman empire...

[Gosh]

source?

FTDNA
Serbs are bearers od R1a1a1 M458-, Z280+ Carpathian branches. None of them is than 3 k.y.o.

[how yes no 3]

FTDNA
Serbs are bearers od R1a1a1 M458-, Z280+ Carpathian branches. None of them is than 3 k.y.o.

and how large is the sample?

I have opened - looked at all samples map for R1a
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
and there are only 3 samples I could relate to Serb ethnic space

2 of them had same distant ancestor with name Josip (Croatian name)

so what on Earth do you talk about?
you base your statement on 3 samples, 2 of them comming from same source - from a person that even have typically Croatian name


DNA research that I quote is based on sample of 103 randomly chosen unrelated people, where 21 person had R1a....

[how yes no 3]

Where is the proof that Serbs ever had practiced Slavic paganism ? Also Slavs use to worship a great number of Sarmatian gods Voden , Morava , Simargl , Dajbog , Svantovit , Jarovit , Hors ,...
There is highest diversity of R1a in Bosnia it doesnt imply all Slavs are from Bosnia , high diversity may imply that there was a lot of diferent nations in that aeria and multiple colonizing waves .

Maybe your theory is true but like S.Holmes say simplest is usualy true
How do you explain this :
1)Other higher than average densities occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%[7]
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
2)North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) , G is probably Meotian and Colhidian.

Archeology shows that only in VI century there is proof of Slavic architecture on west Balkans ( one of it is village near Višegrad on Drina) , in later centuries there is no proof of Slavs on west Balkans- so called Archeological blank . If you look archeological sites of confirmed Slavs , like Kiev or village next to Višegrad , or Balaton in Hungary ,in Walachia in Romania ... you will se that they houses are partialy under ground made of wood and mud- so called zemunica , they villages are always on big rivers banks , they burn they deads and burry they ashes with no artefacts , thay use big curved one head axes and small trowing spears ,... Serbs and Croats findings are totaly diferent : they houses are made of stone and cowered with stone plates or bark of trees surounded with many smaller objects like stables , some of this objects are on slades - so they could be moved , they villages are always on mountains few miles from nearest river ( small or big ) ,Croats burry they deads without burning with a lot of artefacts , in round pits , in fetus position - like Yaziges in Banat during Avaric Khaganate , Serbs burn they deads , and puting ashes in specially builded litlle houses made of dried grass and woods , with lot of artefacts and food - similar to Ants burial customs in Moldavia ( it is believed Stećci -memorial stones in shape of house from Herzegovina mimic those burial houses), Serbs and Croats use twoheaded axes - like Sarmatians and long fighting spears .
Thanks for answering

http://vigg.academia.edu/KazimaBulayeva/Papers/125870/The_key_role_of_patrilineal_inheritance_in_shaping _the_genetic_variation_of_Dagestan_highlanders
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...-2156-9-47.pdf
These abowe show that I is comon in Caucasus, and I2a2 is present only in Southwestern Russia - Sarmatian aerias , ancient Russian sites Vladymir , Ryazan ,... showed even biger percent of R1a up to 80% all of Russia has 10% I2a2 wher did you get 20% :
...
This Russian site say that I among Dasgins is actualy I2a2
....
Hier Serbs , Slovenians and Bulgars are clustered with Lesgins from Dagestan in MDS and rest of Balkanic are not it is small sample but it tell a story :
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/11/...-in-italy.html
Dargins have highest I -58% in whole world after Herzegovina.
Ther is I2a in Armenia to:
The common ancestor of the seven Armenian I2*'s lived approximately 4,500 years ago.

Here's the most recent post on this subject by Ken Nordtvedt: "The I2* cluster is an enigma because overall I2* is probably the strangest haplogroup in Hg I. I2* is generally spread across every quarter of Europe except noticeably light in Scandinavia. I2* has a strong and much older Armenian/Turkish presence and shows up elsewhere in the MidEast/Levant. Because of the bias of our good databases, however, an objective statement of its relative strength across this vast span of territory can not yet be made. But no other subhaplogroup of I is so lacking in geographical concentration. And I2* is old in the time back to its TMRCA --- only being challenged as oldest Hg I clade by I2a1 M26+ Sardinian." With regards to the I2a branch, I am more and more enclined to believe it represents one of the major genetic components of the Indo-European speaking "Armen" people, themselves part of the Phrygian people, who came into Anatolia from the West around 1,300 B.C. As per Dr. Roy King: " ... Assyrians and Armenians are practically identical [genetically] except for language which must be reflected in the I2 and perhaps E1b1b1a-V13 frequencies for the Indo-European superstratum. This is interesting in that it suggests that the Indo-European Armenian speakers came from the Balkans rather than via the Caucasus."
Link for that:http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=news
...
All of I2a2 amongs slavic populations can be explained by Sarmatian settlement , Serboi and Heruatai were Sarmatian tribes , and where they goes I2a2 follow .

let me try to shed light for slightly different viewpoint...
R1a are field people...that is why they dig houses in mud....
I2 are warriors...they take on strategic places from early days... they build houses on strategic places - on hills, so they cannot dig in mud - they have to use stones...

look at I2 project map
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
clear strategic lines from Baltic to Black sea and from Denmark to Italy and Asia minor....
they take trade roots by force and live from trading and war...

Assyrians and Armenians are same because Armenia comes from Sarmenia - Serian people same as Assyrian is Serian.... when talking about Cappadokia Strabo says that both tribes are white Syrians and that they origin from same people that have built royal Palaces in Babylon and Nin

It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon. These two gained the mastery of Asia; and as for Semiramis, apart from her works at Babylon, many others are also to be seen throughout almost the whole of that continent, I mean the mounds called the Mounds of Semiramis, and walls, and the construction of fortifications with aqueducts therein, and of reservoirs for drinking-water, and of ladder-like ascents of mountains, and of channels in rivers and lakes, and of roads and bridges. And they left to their successors their empire until the time of the empires of Sardanapalus and Arbaces. But later the empire passed over to the Medes.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

name Armenian comes from Syrian = Assyrian = Serian

according to Karlovac rodoslov all Serbs did in ancient times worship Dagon
Dagon is waterman
in Slavic version this god is called Dajbog and also Voden (voda = water => this is waterman - same as Assyrian Dagon and also god of Dogon tribe in Africa)

I2a-Din peaks in Dagestan, logically Dagestan is name derived from Dagon...
I2a-Din is in Russia concentrated in south parts...
this is because I2a-Din has spread along Danube and along Black sea and from there it has entered Asia Minor - Phrygia...
Phrygians together with Assyrians are "sea people"...their name comes from worship of waterman or Dagon...

Serians live among Sarmatians in Asian Sarmatia...(Seneca)
those Serians are Serboi who now are Dagestan inhaitants....
Serians in Europe rule over scattered Scythians... (Seneca)
Scythians are R1a people of unknown language....(ancient DNA)
So, perhaps, as Ken Nordvedt suggests I2a played role in transfer of PIE - Scythians in Europe receive PIE from Serians.. that would be origin of Slavs
state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it (Bavarian geographer)

it is possible that Slavic language comes from Serbs
hence the saying in Serbs "speak Serbia so that the whole world understands you"

Croats would be Carpi and originally this tribal name is same as of Serbs...
Carpi are Dacians and worship Dagon as well (according to Karlovac rodoslov Dacia comes from word Dagon)...with expansion of Sarmatians they become Sarmatians...

I2a-Din along Danube (strategic route again) is Sherdana.... I2a1 Sardinians also come from there (ancient DNA shows that Sardinians are closest match to bronze age warriors from Bulgaria area)

Sherdana spread along Danube and Black sea into Asia minor...in Phrygia they found town Sardes... in Egypt a lake is called Serbonis after them....


Assyrian history records state that Hittite were brought down by Phrygians...
in battle of Kadesh Sherdana fight on side of Egypt against Hittite because Hittite are their natural enemy in Asia minor.... Egyptian sources say that sea people took over what is now called Syria after Hittite fall... Assyrian records that Assyrians took over what is now called Syria after Hittite fall....

Assyrians are also called Syrians - they are Serians
Sherdana are also Serians...

Sarmatians are according to legend product of Scythians mating with Amazones....
Serboi tribe in Caucasus neighbours Amazones....
however Serians live among Sarmatians....
Serboi in Sarmatia are Serians who live among Sarmatians....

Serbs have similar/same burial practices as Ants, Croats as Laziges... because Croats are proper Sarmatians, while Serbs and Ants are not... Ants origin from Veneti who were pushed out from coasts of Asia minor in times after sea people....those were among sea peoples....

Veneti is also origin of tribal name Wend used for both Serbs and Croats (De administrando imperio states that both are called white, which is misinterpretation of Wend using Celtic language) ...
in ancient Balkan Illyrians and Scordisci are I2 people - they take strategic places - sea and Danube
Pannonians are proto-Slavs - they take fields...
two societies cooperate - Pannonians are probabbly farmers, Scordisci and Illyrians are perhaps warriors, traders and cattle herders
with expand of Roman empire those who live in areas hard to defend - Pannonians in fields and Scordisci along Danube and its tributarieas take a root towards north... Illyrians already live in hilly region so they feel safe to stay there.... movement of Danubian Slavs from area of Scordisci and Panonia is explained by Russian primary chronicle....it mentions there Serbs and Croats explicitly..... they arrive to Vltava and call themselves Lyakhs there...Lyaks is same name as Lehs...Croats are Carpi... they take Black sea route...Serbs endup north of northwest Carpathians, Croats north of east Carpathians....with arrival of Huns, Croats move along Carpatians towards west... they become neighbours of Serbs...when Bavaria-Bohemia is sparsely settled they bpoth move to the west....Serbs settle Bavaria/Bohemia and Croats just east of them - the rest of Czech republic, Slovakia and south Poland - this can be traced with checkboard coat of arms still present in this regions... than they make a deal with Roman empire to ressetle Balkan and protect it from Avars....so they come to current places...Croats assimilate I2a-Din Illyrians....Serbs assimilate haplogroup E Tribali and Dardanians...Dardanians who moved to mountains during Got, Hun, Avar incursion in Balkan keep their language that becomes ALbanian...
in medieval period they spread into hellenized Albania....

Kurds origin from Assyrians/Syrians....Sorani - biggest Kurd tribe carries name that derives from that source...among Sorani are also Germiani...name Kurd is from same source as Sard - from Sherdana... there is inversion of name - originally Serians was central name, and Sherdana tribe name, in the end name Kurd is large name and name Serian is tribe name.... Sherdana in Asia left genetic impact of R1a south-eastern branch
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...2&source=embed
and some I2 (white Syrians)

from their conquest also people like Seres come to existance (green dots are branch that separates early in history from purple dots)... spread of purple dots along sea is clear - Black sea, Lebanon, Red sea, Persian gulf, west India coasts, Tunisia,,, I2a spreads along Mediteranian coasts mostly... Sardinia is settled from Bulgaria and Asia minor coasts.... I2a-Din comes to existance among Scordisci and Illyrians/Veneti/Anti in Danube and Black sea area....

[Yetos]

i am not denying contribution of Tribali to genetic pool of modern Serbs.
I deny that it is principal component, which is what Zanipolo suggests.

principal component was Slavic I2a-Din and R1a

Triballi contributed large part of haplogroup E, but far from all of it. Let us not forget that Dardanians lived roughly in Kosovo (and north Albania) area that became heart of medieval Serb state and also Dardanians contributing significantly to genetic pool of Montenegro (especially its east half) and that much of central Serbia was resettled from Montenegro....

so if I have to guess and taking into account that Triballi and Dardanians must have had also some part of components other than E, I would put contribution of Tribali to 15% and Dardanians to 10%....
.
but somewhat more than 50% comes from proto-Serbs who came from area of west Bohemia....to where they probably arrived from area north of west Carpathians around Vistula river....
what I wonder is whether the component that carried Serb name in facts origin from Scordisci.....

my argument for that is Russian primary chronicle that places Danubian Slavs and explicitly Serbs in area where Scordisci lived prior to Roman expansion, and from where they (Danubian Slavs) moved to Vistula river region...

i show that logical retreat route of Scordisci from Danube area is exactly to northwest Carpathians... I think that Scordisci (and Illyrians) carried substantial I2a-Din with some R1a and R1b... Scordisci would in very distant time be related to Sardinians and also to Sherdana....do not forget that bronze age people from Bulgaria seems to be closest match to Sardinians, and that there is significant I2a in Asia minor... do not forget that Serbian national dances (and ones of Kurds) do resemble the Sardana dance of Catalonia...my guess is that all those are derivation from some ancient dance of I2a people...

note also that I2a does have affinity with spread along Danube....note just in Serbs but also e.g. in Romania and think Bulgaria..data from west Bohemia however suggests that this was dominant component in proto-Serbs and was not new component acquired in Balkans, which further supports Russian primary chronicle that claims that proto-Serbs originally lived in Danube area and in fact exactly where we know Scordisci lived... so tribal name Serbi can origin from Scordisci/Serdi as I claim on this thread.....


reminder of Serb genetic pool is probably linked to settlers of Balkan from Roman empire, Greeks as main nation in east Roman empire, ancient Macedonians (as medieval Serb state was also in FYRM and in some points of time also north Greece), and reminders of Germanic tribes picked up both in Balkan and in west Bohemia/Bavaria area... ...

modern Albanians in my opinion derive culturally from Dardanians and not from Illyrians...
they also probably have Tribali genetic impact and in Albania also genetic impact of Illyrians, Greeks and Slavic settlers (also Bulgarians who controlled area for a while in medieval times)

people in Balkan in general have mixed genetic pool... there are no ethnically pure nations in Balkan and in Europe in general

How can you be so sure about R1a?
R1a is 5500 in Balkans at least and even might originated in Balkans
(it has big Diversity in Balkans due to either Sink phenomenon or originated in Balkans)

ANCIENT THRACIANS HAD R1a
so stop connecting R1a with Slav entrance in Balkans,

Scordisci were Celts we know they settled in Nis,
they were assimilated by Roman Army and most served in Legion IV Flavia

From Constantine to Justinianus we might Have Scordisci origin Emperrors,

remnants of Scordisci could be some Aromani populations,
Although genetical remains of Scordisci exist around Nis to Belgrade,

Serdi were a celtic population that dwell around Sofia and lost in History

Galates is the known case, ending in minor Asia.

one that is sure is that the connection of R1a with Slavic is Wrong, especially in Balkans,

Why?
cause Serbs as Slavs came from central Europe Great Moravia around.
Severi from Ucraine,
But except Croatia and Greece Both other Slavic countries have low R1a,

SO HOW CAN YOU CONNECT R1a WITH THE SLAV MIGRATION IN BALKANS?
WHEN ANCIENT THRACIAN HAD MORE R1a THAT TODAY BOSNIA SERBIA BULGARIA AND (not sure just now) ROMANIA?

(except if you want to tell us that Serbs force people all the way to Greece to learn Slavic languages, and finally they Learn Greek language in Greece !!!!)

[how yes no 3]

How can you be so sure about R1a?
R1a is 5500 in Balkans at least and even might originated in Balkans
(it has big Diversity in Balkans due to either Sink phenomenon or originated in Balkans)

ANCIENT THRACIANS HAD R1a
so stop connecting R1a with Slav entrance in Balkans,

i am not connecting with Slavs all R1a....
Slavs are relatively new ethnicity in history...
they did however emerge and spread inside R1a gene pool and from peoples who spoke similar variants of PIE language...

read complete reconstruction above...

name Sloveni is rather new and originally used only for people like Slovenians and Slovakians...
it may origin from Slobodni(free) Venni/Fenni...
Slavs come to existence from a melting pot created after invasions of Huns and Avars...
when multiple R1a M458(Pannonians and Fenni) and R1a(xM458) ( Scythians, Sarmatians ) and I2a-Din+R1a(xM458) (Scordisci, free Dacians, Antes) peoples merged and absorbed other similarly speaking PIE elements (such as e.g. I2a-Din Illyrians and some R1a(xM458) Thracians)...
united language emerged as lingua franca of Hun state and Avar kaganat where majority of people were future Slavs and only ruling elite were Huns and later Avars..Huns were rounded off/expelled from area by Avars, and Avars by Slavs - on Balkan by Serbs and Croats after receiving invitation from east Roman empire to settle on Balkan and protect borders of empire from Avars...

in my opinion:
modern Serbs origin dominantly fromScordisci/Serdi and previous Balkan inhabitants such as Tribali, Dardanians, Roman empire settlers and remainders of Germanic tribes
modern Croats from Carpi+previous inhabitants: Illyrians and reminder of Goths
Poles from Pannonians and reminders of Germanic tribes
Czechs from Pannonians and reminders of Celts and Germanic tribes
Slovenians from Fenni and previously settled Veneti, Germanic and Celtic elements
Slovakians from Fenni
Ukrainians from Ants and free Dacians
Russians and Belarus (west Russians) from Scythians and Sarmatians
Bulgarians from Bulgars, Scythians and Thracians
FYRM Macedonians from Serbs and Bulgars and previous inhaitants (hellenized Paeonians, ancient Macedonians and Thracians)
Montenegro people from Serbs/Croats and Dardanians+Illyrians
Bosnia people from Serbs and Croats and previous Illyrians
Bosnia muslims from islamized Serbs and Croats and Illyrians + Pannonians

and neighboring people
Albanians - cultural from (D)Ardanians mixed with previous inhabitants: hellenized Illyrians and romanized Tribali
Romanians - from Roman empire settlers + previous Dacians +some settled Slavs (from free Dacians branch)
Magyars - from Magyars and previously settled Slavs (Pannonians and Sarmatians)

[how yes no 3]

ANCIENT THRACIANS HAD R1a
so stop connecting R1a with Slav entrance in Balkans,

if you are sure of it...
did you consider that Thracians is same tribal name as Russians?

Scordisci were Celts we know they settled in Nis,
they were assimilated by Roman Army and most served in Legion IV Flavia

From Constantine to Justinianus we might Have Scordisci origin Emperrors,

they lived all the way from Greece to Slovakia, not just in Nis...

don't you think that part of them would migrate north to Carpathians when pushed by Roman empire
same like later part of Dacians migrated north and called themselves "free Dacians"

remnants of Scordisci could be some Aromani populations,
Although genetical remains of Scordisci exist around Nis to Belgrade,

also
Vlachs in Serbia are perfectly bilingual...
Serbian is difficult language to learn if you are not born into it.... and other minorities one can recognize by the way they speak... but not Vlachs of east Serbia (which falls under Scordisci areas)... they speak Serbian as native tongue... many of them they live in isolated villages in mountainous areas and one would expect that they have difficulties speaking Serbian, but they do not... they are people with two native languages...

Serdi were a celtic population that dwell around Sofia and lost in History

Serdi are Scordisci that became thracians...

one that is sure is that the connection of R1a with Slavic is Wrong, especially in Balkans,

Why?
cause Serbs as Slavs came from central Europe Great Moravia around.
Severi from Ucraine,
But except Croatia and Greece Both other Slavic countries have low R1a,

low R1a?
Czech republic - 34% R1a
Ukraine -43%

what is low for you?

SO HOW CAN YOU CONNECT R1a WITH THE SLAV MIGRATION IN BALKANS?
WHEN ANCIENT THRACIAN HAD MORE R1a THAT TODAY BOSNIA SERBIA BULGARIA AND (not sure just now) ROMANIA?

why are you shouting?

I make distinction between Slavs, Serbs and Croats settlement waves...
Slavs who came from Ukraine did brought some r1a...

Serbs who came from Bohemia probably didnot have dominant R1a but I2a-Din....but I guess they have had some R1a... my explanation for possibly low R1a in proto-Serbs is that they were originally Balkan/Danube I2a people.. this is confirmed by Russian primary chronicle that explicitly places Serbs among Danubian Slavs who lived, prior to Roman expansion, exactly where Scordisci used to live....


if you read carefully, you would see that I speak of ancient R1a pool in Balkan and that I relate it to Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians... I am not yet sure about Thracians.... though it make sense - during expansion of Roman empire they would logically retreat along Black sea and eventually end up as Russians.... if "T" in Thracians is confusing you, it is same Greek stuff as you did by giving name Tyrsenoi to Rasenna (Etruscans).. Etruscans were also at least partly R1a people...this is clear when looking at R1a in Italy and Asia minor... but they separated from main part before language of R1a became PIE...

[Yetos]

if you are sure of it...
did you consider that Thracians is same tribal name as Russians?



they lived all the way from Greece to Slovakia, not just in Nis...

don't you think that part of them would migrate north to Carpathians when pushed by Roman empire
same like later part of Dacians migrated north and called themselves "free Dacians"


also
Vlachs in Serbia are perfectly bilingual...
Serbian is difficult language to learn if you are not born into it.... and other minorities one can recognize by the way they speak... but not Vlachs of east Serbia (which falls under Scordisci areas)... they speak Serbian as native tongue... many of them they live in isolated villages in mountainous areas and one would expect that they have difficulties speaking Serbian, but they do not... they are people with two native languages...


Serdi are Scordisci that became thracians...


low R1a?
Czech republic - 34% R1a
Ukraine -43%

what is low for you?


why are you shouting?

I make distinction between Slavs, Serbs and Croats settlement waves...
Slavs who came from Ukraine did brought some r1a...

Serbs who came from Bohemia probably didnot have dominant R1a but I2a-Din....but I guess they have had some R1a... my explanation for possibly low R1a in proto-Serbs is that they were originally Balkan/Danube I2a people.. this is confirmed by Russian primary chronicle that explicitly places Serbs among Danubian Slavs who lived, prior to Roman expansion, exactly where Scordisci used to live....


if you read carefully, you would see that I speak of ancient R1a pool in Balkan and that I relate it to Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians... I am not yet sure about Thracians.... though it make sense - during expansion of Roman empire they would logically retreat along Black sea and eventually end up as Russians.... if "T" in Thracians is confusing you, it is same Greek stuff as you did by giving name Tyrsenoi to Rasenna (Etruscans).. Etruscans were also at least partly R1a people...this is clear when looking at R1a in Italy and Asia minor... but they separated from main part before language of R1a became PIE...

sorry

I don't share that idea,

R1a has 4 possible in Balkans

1) came with IE at 5-6 000 before from Steppes
2) is local balcanic HG
3) came from minor Asia at bronze or copper eras
4) non IE like Turkic populations


Pelasgians language is written in Lemnean Stele, NON IE, NON R1a,

Scordisci were assimilated by Roman Army 400 years before Serbs enter Balkans
Legion IV Flavia was mainly their home,

Part of Scordisci are Serbs today, maybe majority of Scordisci, but not majority of modern serbians are from Scordisci,
It more possible that some Aromani population origin from Scordisci than entering Serbs origin from Scordisci.

Thracians is still strange,
in their tombs we find art simmilar with Myceneans, in their language we find vocabulary that is minor Asian IE,
some Consider them Aryans, others Iranians other Armenians (Armenian Theory), and they also existed or expand to Far more than Ucraine (Queen Thamar-is)

Chechia and Ukraine are not Balkans

original Serbs personally I beleive that are connected with East Germanic (Slavo-Germanic maybe?) Sorbs,
They enter as warriors, a rulling class, and they mixed with Triballi Noble remnants,
Scordisci at that time were all absorb by Flavia Legion.

sory that is what I see after 2 years discuss in the forum.

[Beast]

Russians got their name 'Rusi' from Viking tribe called Rus. I don't see how it has anything to do with the balkans, although some Swedish historians try to connect the Vikings with Thracians.

And Serbs got the name 'Triballians' because of where they live... in some byzantine sources they are even refered to as Misians... in the book of Albanian historian Marin Barleti about Gjergj Kastrioti... He refered to Serbs as 'Misians' which I think is from Moesia, again from the region they inhabit.

[Gosh]

and how large is the sample?

I have opened - looked at all samples map for R1a
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
and there are only 3 samples I could relate to Serb ethnic space

2 of them had same distant ancestor with name Josip (Croatian name)

so what on Earth do you talk about?
you base your statement on 3 samples, 2 of them comming from same source - from a person that even have typically Croatian name


DNA research that I quote is based on sample of 103 randomly chosen unrelated people, where 21 person had R1a....

When you want to discuss about something, you have to learn about that field much more.
As I can see, you're talking about R1a1* DYS392=13. It is impossible to find samples of that haplogroup between Serbs in any public database. In the same time, you have that haplogrroup amoong other nations.


1O-R1a.jpg



Your "story" is a little bit obsolete.