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Thread: Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Of course, how could Croats lose a battle. Aren't you a bit hyper nationalistic again?

    Croats have lost a few battles but never from Bulgarians,, Croats have defended Serbs from the Bulgarian ......
    That's sweet. Why don't you do like you ancestors and defend Serbs now, or at least don't insult them.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    And that's why Serbs are Muslim now? Please lets kill each other again in a big World War, because there is no nation in Europe without a guilt of attacking, winning, killing raping, grabbing land, etc. It is an excellent reason to hate other nations till the end of the world.


    Serbs are not Muslims, but they fought for Islam against Christianity ....



    So what should we do with them? Should we kill them?
    Last edited by LeBrok; 02-09-14 at 07:04.

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    You can check genetic similarities between people around Krakow and Croats to see if populations are genetically similar. If they are then White Croats indeed live around Krakow.

    I2a1b1 haplotype occurs and comes from southern Poland with Croats, where it has a small percentage today .. it's logic, it would not otherwise come from there to Croatia ....

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    So what should we do with them? Should be kill them?


    Serbs are the biggest Christians of the world ..... is there any logic.....

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    Same as most Croats don't know where is Idaho in America.


    You're a funny serb.....I love you bro....

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Serbs

    The Iranian theory

    Theory about Iranian origin of the Serb ethnonym assumes that ancient Serbi / Serboi from north Caucasus (Asiatic Sarmatia) were an Sarmatian (Alanian) tribe.[25] The theory subsequently assumes that Alanian Serbi were subdued by the Huns in the 4th century and that they, as part of the Hunnic army, migrated to the western edge of the Hunnic Empire (in the area of Central Europe near the river Elbe, later designated as White Serbia in what is now Saxony (eastern Germany) and western Poland). After Hunnic leader Attila died (in 453), Alanian Serbi presumably became independent and ruled in the east of the river Saale (in modern day Germany) over local Slavic population.[26][27] Over time, they, it is argued, intermarried with the local Slavic population of the region,[28][29] adopted Slavic language, and transferred their name to the Slavs.[30] According to Tadeuš Sulimirski, similar event could occur in the Balkans or Serbs who settled in the Balkans were Slavs who came from the north and who were ruled by already slavicized Alans.[31]

    Hypothetical Serb migration from Sarmatia

    Deformed human sculls that are connected to the Alans are also discovered in the area that was later designated as "White Serbia".[32] According to Iranian interpretation, different sides of the World are designated with different colors, thus, white color is designation for the west, black color for the north, blue or green color for the east and red color for the south. According to that view, White Serbia and White Croatia were designated as western Serbia and western Croatia, and were situated in the west from some hypothetical lands that had same names and that presumably existed in the east.[33]

    It is possible that the Alanian Serbi in Sarmatia, similarly like other Sarmatian/Iranian peoples on the northern Caucasus, originally spoke an Indo-European Iranian language similar to present-day Ossetian. The Ossetian language is a member of Eastern Iranian branch of Iranian languages, along with Pashtun, Yaghnobi and languages of the Pamir. One of the Pashtun tribal groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan is known as Sarbans (Sarbani) and Pashtuns are believed to be of Scythian descent[34] while their language is classified as East Scythian[35] (Sarmatian language is also grouped within Scythian branch).

    In Polish history, the Polish nobility claimed to be direct descendants of the historic Sarmatian people (see: Sarmatism) and this might be connected with historical White Serbia and White Croatia, which included parts of present-day Poland.

    PS:
    The Caucasian theory - According to some interpretations, Serb ethnonym might be of Caucasian or more notably of Lezgian origin. In the Lezgian language, "ser" would mean "man", while "serbi" would mean "men" or "people".[36]

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    Hypothetical Serb migration from Sarmatia

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    Quote Originally Posted by King Bardhyl View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Serbs

    The Iranian theory

    Theory about Iranian origin of the Serb ethnonym assumes that ancient Serbi / Serboi from north Caucasus (Asiatic Sarmatia) were an Sarmatian (Alanian) tribe.[25] The theory subsequently assumes that Alanian Serbi were subdued by the Huns in the 4th century and that they, as part of the Hunnic army, migrated to the western edge of the Hunnic Empire (in the area of Central Europe near the river Elbe, later designated as White Serbia in what is now Saxony (eastern Germany) and western Poland). After Hunnic leader Attila died (in 453), Alanian Serbi presumably became independent and ruled in the east of the river Saale (in modern day Germany) over local Slavic population.[26][27] Over time, they, it is argued, intermarried with the local Slavic population of the region,[28][29] adopted Slavic language, and transferred their name to the Slavs.[30] According to Tadeuš Sulimirski, similar event could occur in the Balkans or Serbs who settled in the Balkans were Slavs who came from the north and who were ruled by already slavicized Alans.[31]

    Hypothetical Serb migration from Sarmatia

    Deformed human sculls that are connected to the Alans are also discovered in the area that was later designated as "White Serbia".[32] According to Iranian interpretation, different sides of the World are designated with different colors, thus, white color is designation for the west, black color for the north, blue or green color for the east and red color for the south. According to that view, White Serbia and White Croatia were designated as western Serbia and western Croatia, and were situated in the west from some hypothetical lands that had same names and that presumably existed in the east.[33]

    It is possible that the Alanian Serbi in Sarmatia, similarly like other Sarmatian/Iranian peoples on the northern Caucasus, originally spoke an Indo-European Iranian language similar to present-day Ossetian. The Ossetian language is a member of Eastern Iranian branch of Iranian languages, along with Pashtun, Yaghnobi and languages of the Pamir. One of the Pashtun tribal groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan is known as Sarbans (Sarbani) and Pashtuns are believed to be of Scythian descent[34] while their language is classified as East Scythian[35] (Sarmatian language is also grouped within Scythian branch).

    In Polish history, the Polish nobility claimed to be direct descendants of the historic Sarmatian people (see: Sarmatism) and this might be connected with historical White Serbia and White Croatia, which included parts of present-day Poland.

    PS:
    The Caucasian theory - According to some interpretations, Serb ethnonym might be of Caucasian or more notably of Lezgian origin. In the Lezgian language, "ser" would mean "man", while "serbi" would mean "men" or "people".[36]
    if Sebs were Lazoi, then they should be heavily in R1b and R1a
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    9th Century
    The town was mentioned again not until the IX century, under the Slavic name BEOGRAD (White Town - probably because of the walls made of white limestone). It was in a letter of April 16, 878 which Pope John VIII wrote to the Bulgarian prince Boris-Mihailo, about the dismissal of a Christian bishop Sergije.

    Later, this name appeared in several variants: ALBA GRAECA, GRIECHISCH WEISSENBURG, NANDOR ALBA, NANDOR FEJERVAR, CASTELBIANCO, ALBA BULGARICA.

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    14th Century

    The Travels of Sir John Mandeville, by Sir John Mandeville, 1357
    And the King of Hungary is a great lord and a mighty, and holdeth great lordships and much land in his hand. For he holdeth the kingdom of Hungary, Sclavonia, and of Comania a great part, and of Bulgaria that men call the land of Bougiers……….

    And after, go men to Belgrade, and enter into the land of Bougiers
    ; and there pass men a bridge of stone that is upon the river of Marrok.

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    17th Century
    http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Le...frametext1.htm
    Simeon Lehaci, Balkan Traveller of Armenian origin, 1608-1620.
    In Bosnia, everywhere there are also many Bulgarian monasteries .... In Bosnia, all the people speak in Bulgarian........



    19th Century (Early)
    Mark Mazower, The Balkans
    As late as 1810, for instance, there were only two elementary schools in the Pashalik of Belgrade(the core of future Serbia), and in both the language of instruction was Greek.

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    19th Century (Mid)


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    In 1790 or in 1804, "Serb" always meant "peasant."
    Man, state, and society in East European history, page 131, By Stephen A. Fischer-Galați

    throughout many parts of Austria-Hungary to be a Serb meant to be a peasant and vice versa
    Austrian history yearbook, page 43, By Rice University, American Historical Association. Conference Group for Central European History, University of Minnesota. Center for Austrian Studies.

    Prior to, during and after its creation, Serbia had newspapers with the name 'Greciia' labelled on them, they only had 2 elementary schools in Belgrade in which the language of education was Greek, according to Serbs themselves such as Stojanovic and Karanovic the upper classes spoke and identified as Greeks.

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    The Balkans in World History, by Andrew Baruch Wachtel






    "We are apt to speak of the Serbs of Serbia as 'the' Serbians,
    and to forget that modern Serbia is a recent state mapped out
    arbitrarily by the Powers."
    by Mary E. Durham

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    Quote Originally Posted by King Bardhyl View Post
    9th Century
    The town was mentioned again not until the IX century, under the Slavic name BEOGRAD (White Town - probably because of the walls made of white limestone). It was in a letter of April 16, 878 which Pope John VIII wrote to the Bulgarian prince Boris-Mihailo, about the dismissal of a Christian bishop Sergije.

    Later, this name appeared in several variants: ALBA GRAECA, GRIECHISCH WEISSENBURG, NANDOR ALBA, NANDOR FEJERVAR, CASTELBIANCO, ALBA BULGARICA.

    so it was Greeks who build Belingrand? and not Scordisci?
    thank you for the honor,

    I see I have seen a map showing Bulgaria in Bosnia Croatia Serbia Albania, and Makedonia in modern Bulgaria/Turkey are refering to this map?






    Are you refering to the Byzantine divisions which also knew Italians
    when Adrianoypolis today Turkey was capital of 'Makedonia'
    no Albania, and only Bulgaria?

    aren't you tired to use the strategical rulling divisions as national and ethnic divisions?

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    1332
    Anonymous:
    Initiative for Making the Passage


    The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum', which can be translated as 'Initiative for making the passage', is a mediaeval Latin manuscript (also available in an early French translation) attributed alternatively to a monk called Burcard (Brocardus Monacus / Frère Brochard) or to one William Adam (Guillelmus Adam / Guillaume Adam) (1). The author was at any rate a Dominican priest and Latin prelate in the Byzantine Empire and Armenia, whose aim was to persuade the Catholic armies under Philip VI of Valois (r. 1328-1350) to embark upon a holy crusade and conquer Serbian-occupied Albania, thus restoring the Catholic Church to its former power there and taking revenge upon the Orthodox Greeks for having destroyed the Latin Empire of Constantinople. In the text, the author makes reference to the Albanians as the majority population in Albania. It is also in the 'Directorium' that a much-quoted phrase about the existence of books in Albania occurs: 'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris' (The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books). Though the reference to the existence of the language is clear, that to writing in Albanian is ambiguous. It cannot be said for certain whether the author meant Albanian-language books written in Latin script or simply books written in Latin. The former possibility has of course captured the imagination of subsequent generations of Albanian scholars and the text is often quoted to this end in histories and studies of Albanian literature as evidence that Albanian-language books existed long before the so-called Missal of Gjon Buzuku (1555).

    On the Kingdom of Rascia and how it could easily be conquered I would like to come back to the Kingdom of Rascia to show how it could be conquered. Indeed, the desire to invade is all that is needed for the country to be taken. In order to make this clear, I would like to present a number of brief suggestions for an invasion and a number of easily fulfilled conditions for a conquest.
    The said kingdom has few if any fortifications at all. All that exists are farmhouses and cottages devoid of moats and outer walls. The buildings and palaces, both of the king and of the nobles, are made of straw and wood. I have never seen a palace or home there made of stone or of brick except in the coastal towns of the Latins. The said kingdom is rich in grain, wine, oil and meat. It is a pleasant place with water from springs and rivers flowing through it, a delightful land with woods, meadows, mountains, plains and valleys full of various species of wild beasts. In short, everything that grows there is of choice quality, in particular in areas along the coast. In the said kingdom, there are indeed five gold mines and an equal number of silver mines in which expert miners toil without interruption. There are also mixed deposits of silver and gold, which have recently been discovered at various and sundry sites, and huge dense forests. Whoever owns this kingdom will have a veritable jewel in his possession, select and precious for all times.
    One factor, among others, which makes this kingdom easy to conquer, is that it is inhabited by two peoples, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins who, in their beliefs, their rites and their obedience, both abide by the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, they have archbishops, bishops and abbots, as well as religious and secular clerics of lower rank and status. The Latins have six towns with bishops: firstly Antibarum (Bar), the seat of the archbishop, then Chatarensis (Kotor), Dulcedinensis (Ulcinj), Suacinensis (Shas) (2), Scutarensis (Shkodra) and Drivascensis (Drisht) (3), which are inhabited by the Latins alone. Outside the town walls, the Albanians make up the population throughout the diocese. There are four Albanian towns: Polatum Maius (Greater Pult) (4), Polatum Minus (Lesser Pult), Sabatensis (Sapa) (5) and Albanensis (Albanopolis) (6) which, together with the towns of the Latins, are all legally subject to the Archbishop of Bar and his church as their metropolitan. The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin. However they use Latin letters in all their books (7). The sway of the Latins is thus confined to the limits of their towns. Outside the towns, they do possess vineyards and fields, but there are no fortifications or villages actually inhabited by the Latins. The Albanians for their part, the larger of the two peoples, could assemble over fifteen thousand horsemen for warfare according to the custom and manner of the country, who would be courageous and industrious warriors. Since the said Latins and Albanians suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders whom they detest - the people being tormented, the clergy humiliated and oppressed, the bishops and abbots often kept in chains, the nobles disinherited and held hostage, episcopal and other churches disbanded and deprived of their rights, and the monasteries in decay and ruin - they would all to a man believe that they were consecrating their hands in the blood of the aforementioned Slavs if a French prince were to appear before them whom they could make leader of their war against the said evil Slavs, the enemies of our true faith. With the help of the aforementioned Albanians and Latins, one thousand French knights and five or six thousand foot soldiers could without a doubt easily conquer the whole length and breadth of this kingdom.



    (1) On the authorship of the 'Directorium', cf. M. Šufflay, Pseudobrocardus..., in: Vjesnik kraljevskog hrvatskog slavonskog dalmatinskog zemeljskog archiva, Zagreb, 13 (1911), p. 142-150; A. Atiya, The Crusade in the Later Middle Ages, New York 1965, p. 95 106, 65 67.
    (2) Settlement near the river Buna, on the Montenegrin side of the present border. At its zenith during the Middle Ages it was known as Suacium, Italian Suazzo, Sfazzi, French Soans, and now in Albanian as Shas and in Serbo-Croatian as Šas. The town was first documented in 1067 and began to decay around the end of the 14th century.
    (3) Village on the river Kir, northeast of Shkodra.
    (4) Pult (Polatum) is a region on the river Kir extending beyond Drisht to Prekal.
    (5) Saba or Sapa was in the Zadrima region east of Shkodra, later to be part of the diocese of Sapa and Sarda (Sapatensis et Sardensis).
    (6) Albanopolis has been traditionally identified with the village of Zgërdhesh, south of Kruja.
    (7) For an interpretation of this sentence, cf. I. Zamputi, in: Hylli i Dritës, 1-2, 1995, p. 14-51.
    [Extract from: Recueil des historiens des croisades. Documents arméniens. Tome second. Documents latins et français relatifs à l'Arménie, Paris 1906, p. 478 485. Translated from the Latin by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 28-30.]




    File:Balkans 1265.jpg


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    Here is an importan quote about what the meaning of Serb/Serv/Serf is, directly from the source:
    But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius recieved him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination. 'Serbs' in the tongue of the Romans is the word for 'slaves', whence the colloquial 'serbula' for menial shoes, and 'tzerboulianoi' for those who wear cheap, shoddy footgear. This name the Serbs acquired from their being slaves of the emperor of the Romans.

    Source: "DE ADMINISTRANDO IMPERIO" by Constantine Porphyrogenitus, paragraph 32, written between the years AD 948-952.

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    The Balkans by Dennis P. Hupchick


    Here's something else on "Resava"- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manasija_monastery
    Manasija (Serbian Cyrillic: Манасија), also known as Resava (Serbian Cyrillic: Ресава), is a Serb Orthodox monastery near Despotovac, Serbia, founded by Despotes Stefan Lazarević between 1407 and 1418. It is one of the most significant monuments of medieval Serbian culture and it belongs to the "Morava school". Immediately following its foundation, the monastery became the cultural centre of the Serbian Despotate. Its Resava school was well known for its manuscripts and translations throughout the 15th and 16th centuries, even after the fall of the Despotate to the Ottoman Turks.

    and more here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomoravlje_District
    The Resava-Manasija monastery is located in the immediate vicinity of Despotovac. The Resava endowment of Despot Stefan Lazarević was built between 1407 and 1418. Over the fifteenth century the famous Resava School carried out its work there, in the framework of several workshops in which major texts of the world heritage were copied and the new ones written. Konstantin the Philosopher, the author of the "Hagiography of Despot Stefan" and the "Book on Letters" which regulated the then current Orthography of Serbian language, carried out his creative work in the Resava monastery.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Bardhyl View Post
    In 1790 or in 1804, "Serb" always meant "peasant."
    Man, state, and society in East European history, page 131, By Stephen A. Fischer-Galați

    throughout many parts of Austria-Hungary to be a Serb meant to be a peasant and vice versa
    Austrian history yearbook, page 43, By Rice University, American Historical Association. Conference Group for Central European History, University of Minnesota. Center for Austrian Studies.
    Serbs had nobility in middle ages, and Serbian nobility was rich similar as other countries in Europe.

    Serbian nobility

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_nobility

    In historiography, high and late medieval Serbian nobility ("lords, nobles" - plemići/племићи, vlastela/) could be grouped into "magnates" (velikaši/великаши - "Great, Grand", or velmoža, or vlastela) and "lesser lords" (vlasteličići). A military rank was vojvoda (war-leader, war-bringer), which was bestowed upon talented general, regardless of descent and social rank.


    The ruling nobility possessed hereditary allodial estates, which were worked by dependent sebri, the equivalent of Greek paroikos; peasants owing labour services, formally bound by decree.

    All noblemen were obliged to serve the monarch in war.

    Titles include:


    • Prince, possessor of a lordship styled principality, a title which was only semi-official and never gave his possessor precedence at the court. Not to be confused with the rank of Prince.
    • despot, (court title)
    • sevastokrator
    • kesar, (court title)
    • gospodar (Lord), possessor of a lordship directly under the rule of the monarch
    • ban (administrative)
    • kefalija (from Greek kephalē, meaning "Head"), (administrative)
    • čelnik(Head), (administrative)
    • logotet (administrative)
    • protovestijar (protovestiarios), used after Stefan Milutin (financial)
    • kaznac, (financial)
    • sevast, (court title)
    • protosevast
    • tepčija, (court title)
    • veliki domestik
    • domestik (domestikos)
    • veliki čauš.


    ...
    Serbian nobility has dissapeared at the time of Ottoman occupation.

    Serbia and Balkans were similar developed as England and Scandinavian countries in medieval times (1000 year).

    But Western Europe had humanism and renaissance while Balkan countries had Ottoman occupation, Islamic rule and Sharia law.

    While Western Europe developed, people in Balkan countries was struggling to survive in very hard conditions.

    Villages and fleeing to the mountins meant the safest refuge for survival.

    ...
    From Wikipedia:

    "With the fall of Serbia in the 15th century, Serbian nobility survived in Montenegro, Venetian territories and in the Austro-Hungarian lands. In the 19th century, with the independence from the Ottoman Empire, a new nobility based out of warriors and other wealthy intelligentsia emerged."

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    Average Serbian autosomal K12b


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    empty message

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    What would be interesting to see is a Serbian result from the K12 at geneplaza. Calculators based on modern clusters are not at all as informative, imo.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Y DNA of Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina (sample 380)


    ​Y DNA of Serbs from Serbia (sample 785)


    - Bosnian Serbs have more R1a than Serbs from Serbia, but less I2a

    - Serbs from Serbia have little more E1b, G2 and R1b

    - Bosnian Serbs have little more N

    - I1 and J2b are equal

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    It's bs Slavs come from the Steppes not Iran

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