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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Then lately a lot of scholars, such as two austrian professors, have contested the illiryan theory, i don't know what our scholars do, are they actually in a dormient status or what, i don't see ne w studies coming out of them.
    I want to see what exactly these austrian professors exactly said, not some article, but the scientific paper that they produced at the end of their mission in Albania.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    You know if Latins and others owned all the ports and ships then it would be expected that Albanians would pick up the words for sea based things (ship, sea, pier etc) from Latin and others. Old words fall by the wayside as they adopt the borrowed words they hear more often instead.

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    I have great misgivings for all the nonsense reification applied in taking tree models designed to help us understand larger migrations and trying to conform everything in all known languages to these trees. There are trees of languages yes, many languages directly descend from others but... linguistic innovation waves occurred everywhere between all languages. When we try to fit reality onto the tree of languages, it’s not going to fit perfectly because of all the waves that get in the way. Is Albanian related to Slavic languages? Yes but about as much as it is related to Greek or German or Latin.

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    @Gannicus

    If you really want to learn about where people came from, forget about linguistic, cultural or ethnographic theories. Start from scratch by looking at the trail of DNA, especially Y-DNA. Check this map: http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/.../45.228/19.270. Then look at what clades people from each ethnic group fall into. That will give you an idea of where most haplogroups could be found at different times. Regarding movements of peoples, which is what you are talking about, culture-centered theories can only serve to hypothesize about what DNA has not discovered yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    I mean the logic is, if we originated in morava valley, when slavs forefathers of serbs were still some small undeveloped politically, first slavs wouldn't be enough strong to push us downwards, so they could just bypass us, but the following ones that started forming in primitive kinds of despotates could be enough strong to push us back, the question now is, wherw did we originated exactly, how could we survive total latinization, how is it possible that we have a big substratum of words with romanians and their forefathers, and one question for you, have u ever seen the studies of a british professor called dr.Basset trumper?what do you think about him?He even cited some common features among albanians and baltics.
    This hypothesis does not match with the DNA composition of Albanians, first identify, which Y-dna moved from Romania to Albania and then lay down all these...without DNA model you have just word in thin air.....waste of time.


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    Actually,the fall of the intervocalic consonant can also be found in Italian,Mediolanum-->Milano.


    The Albanian-Romanian n-r rhotacism,perhaps to be found in Spanish and French,London-->Londres.

  7. #432
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    thank you all for your replys.

  8. #433
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    I would be glad to you if u could provide me some links on those who you reputate the best albanologist (about genetics) and some others about haplogroups in general, thank you.
    And if you could, because as I discovered with time, internet is full of stupid propaganda, i would like to see even the linguistic links between albanian and epiric, and albanian and illyrian, meaning about s
    the discoveries about illyrian and epirote, if there are detailed works about such things.
    Thx to all for your time

  9. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Here is the crux of your problem. You seem be spending too much
    time on pan slav forums (strange...). 95% of the fake facts you listed about albanian linguistics are just plain wrong and nothing more than propaganda. Your theories about j2 are flat out wrong. The albanian J2b that was found in croatia was high steppe, he wasnt a farmer.Stop doing the cetniks work for free if you dont know what it is your saying. All those theories that spread in pan slav forums about so called linguists are plain untrue. Cabej demonstrated long ago indigenous sea words and yet they still repeat this. All your theories were wrong and show a lack of background knowledge. Lurk more and catch up on the theories before spreading cetnik propaganda
    Thank you for explaining something new I didn't know, about J2b, problem for me is that wikipedia about haplogroups is quite limited.
    Then I would like to ask you, are there any news about albanian haplogroups, like new discoveries? regionally and not only, thank you.

  10. #435
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    What i would like to know from you even, cuz you are more expert than me, is: did firstly develop haplogroup R? or Indo-European culture?I would bet haplogroup, but i am not so sure of any of my beliefs.

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    Guys, than explain me this, i saw on the link gently provided by Ownstyler that Y-DNA doesn't concede with mt-DNA can you explain me the basics of these? sorry for boring you i am not an expert, anyways are you all genetists in here?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    If you are curious about those subjects, you can utilize the search bar in the top right hand corner. This thread is not dedicated to those topics.

  13. #438
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    And still what conclusion have you got to about albanians, I'm curious, like what haplogroup carried albanian culture (supposed), or where they more than one originally?And all this stuff, i have read all the threads on this frum and i liked to see not only the level of interest about the topic but even the high intellectual level in here, i am very happy for that, but still didn't get to the most probable conclusion, some one says illyrian, with very good proofs to back it, others say epirote, i am quite confused.

  14. #439
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    +Jovialis, thank you, but what conclusion have you got to about albanian origins?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Guys, than explain me this, i saw on the link gently provided by Ownstyler that Y-DNA doesn't concede with mt-DNA can you explain me the basics of these? sorry for boring you i am not an expert, anyways are you all genetists in here?
    Y-haplogroups are passed from father to son, without recombination with the mother's DNA. Only mutations can change that part of the DNA, so if two people have the same Y-haplogroup they come from a single male ancestor along the paternal line. On the other hand mt-DNA is passed from mother to child, so it goes through the female line, unchanged except for mutations. People with the same mtDNA have one female line ancestor in common, the mother of their mother's mother's mother's...... mother.

    Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups aren't usually in pairs because for the most part men stayed with their tribes, while women relocated to their husband's tribe/territory. That is why Y-haplogroups are more reliable for understanding migrations of tribes or cultural groups (linguistic, religious, etc), rather than just individual movements due to marriage arrangements.

    As for Albanian Y-Haplogroups, they aren't as diverse as you think. There's R1b and J2b2, who most likely brought the indo-european language that later developed into Albanian, and there's E-v13, which seems to have expanded into the Balkans earlier. These three account for more than 70%. Together with G2a, and J2a in Greece, they probably made up most of the ancient populations of Southeastern Europe, who also did not belong to single haplogroups but different combinations of the ones I mentioned.

    You mentioned the Dacians: we don't know for sure yet, but it is likely that they had much more R1a and I2a than the more south western populations such as the Greeks and Albanians.
    Last edited by Ownstyler; 15-04-18 at 01:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Y-haplogroups are passed from father to son, without recombination with the mother's DNA. Only mutations can change that part of the DNA, so if two people have the same Y-haplogroup they come from a single male ancestor along the paternal line. On the other hand mt-DNA is passed from mother to child, so it goes through the female line, unchanged except for mutations. People with the same mtDNA have one female line ancestor in common, the mother of their mother's mother's mother's...... mother.

    Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups aren't usually in pairs because for the most part men stayed with their tribes, while women relocated to their husband's tribe/territory. That is why Y-haplogroups are more reliable for understanding migrations of tribes or cultural groups (linguistic, religious, etc), rather than just individual movements due to marriage arrangements.

    As for Albanian Y-Haplogroups, they aren't as diverse as you think. There's R1b and J2b2, who most likely brought the indo-european language that later developed into Albanian, and there's E-v13, which seems to have expanded into the Balkans earlier. These three account for more than 70%. Together with G2a, and J1a in Greece, they probably made up most of the ancient populations of Southeastern Europe, who also did not belong to single haplogroups but different combinations of the ones I mentioned.

    You mentioned the Dacians: we don't know for sure yet, but it is likely that they had much more R1a and I2a than the more south westerpopulations such as the Greeks and Albanians.
    Dacians could not have had much R1a as the romans resettled thousands of them into western balkans from the time of gothic push into dacia............they would have had R1b more so than R1a

    Same with Goths........if they had R1a , we would see far more R1a where goths settled, western balkans, italy, south france, spain, western north africa , but we do not see this..........so to conclude , both dacians and goths would have had more R1b than R1a ( when we look at only these 2 haplogroups )
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Dacians could not have had much R1a as the romans resettled thousands of them into western balkans from the time of gothic push into dacia............they would have had R1b more so than R1a

    Same with Goths........if they had R1a , we would see far more R1a where goths settled, western balkans, italy, south france, spain, western north africa , but we do not see this..........so to conclude , both dacians and goths would have had more R1b than R1a ( when we look at only these 2 haplogroups )
    Where did I say they had more R1a than R1b? I just said they had more R1a and I2a than more southwestern peoples. I think you can't disagree with that.

  18. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Y-haplogroups are passed from father to son, without recombination with the mother's DNA. Only mutations can change that part of the DNA, so if two people have the same Y-haplogroup they come from a single male ancestor along the paternal line. On the other hand mt-DNA is passed from mother to child, so it goes through the female line, unchanged except for mutations. People with the same mtDNA have one female line ancestor in common, the mother of their mother's mother's mother's...... mother.

    Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups aren't usually in pairs because for the most part men stayed with their tribes, while women relocated to their husband's tribe/territory. That is why Y-haplogroups are more reliable for understanding migrations of tribes or cultural groups (linguistic, religious, etc), rather than just individual movements due to marriage arrangements.

    As for Albanian Y-Haplogroups, they aren't as diverse as you think. There's R1b and J2b2, who most likely brought the indo-european language that later developed into Albanian, and there's E-v13, which seems to have expanded into the Balkans earlier. These three account for more than 70%. Together with G2a, and J2a in Greece, they probably made up most of the ancient populations of Southeastern Europe, who also did not belong to single haplogroups but different combinations of the ones I mentioned.

    You mentioned the Dacians: we don't know for sure yet, but it is likely that they had much more R1a and I2a than the more south western populations such as the Greeks and Albanians.
    oh man thank you for the explanation, I actually new the trasmission ,mather mt, father Y, in fact i tested and resulted R1b, the part I didn't understand , that u explained me too, was why mother and father don't coincide, ah, what mt-dna do albanians have just for knowledge, with who we have it in common?Thx.

  19. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    oh man thank you for the explanation, I actually new the trasmission ,mather mt, father Y, in fact i tested and resulted R1b, the part I didn't understand , that u explained me too, was why mother and father don't coincide, ah, what mt-dna do albanians have just for knowledge, with who we have it in common?Thx.
    Mate you don't even know the most entry level basic things about albanian genetics and yet you came in here with entirely foundational theories about Albanian ethnogenesis?

    Go do some personal research. Use GOOGLE (it exists you know), go through eupedia posts, their mtdna lists.

    Stop asking people to spoonfeed you every personal answer and stop forming theories after reading posts on slav forums if you don't even know basic things like haplgroups and haplotypes.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I want to see what exactly these austrian professors exactly said, not some article, but the scientific paper that they produced at the end of their mission in Albania.
    This is the paper: http://www.albanologie.uni-muenchen....thnogenese.pdf

    Not sure if the google translator can make sense of it. If you're interested I'll translate the conclusions that summarize his points.

  21. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    This is the paper: http://www.albanologie.uni-muenchen....thnogenese.pdf

    Not sure if the google translator can make sense of it.
    Thanks for this, people always link to news reporting about their claims. I hope google translate works well with german

  22. #447
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    Ok so i've just begun looking through the document and already this is interesting to me:

    "Linguistic arguments on the prehistory of the Albanians§1) On the Autochtonous hypothesis


    According to the autochthonous hypothesis, the modern Albanians are supposed to be in their present day
    Residences (Albania, Kosova) formed in a linear way from the ancient Illyrians
    to have. The Albanian language is used here as a modern continuation of the ancient Illyrian
    considered. In support of this hypothesis, various arguments in the
    Discussion introduced: (see also the literature in the appendix)
    (a) Foreign language arguments:
    • Archeology, soil finds (continuity is postulated by Albanian archeology)
    Meanwhile, in modern archeology, the knowledge that finds are not without
    further with language (s) are linkable. Similarly, find continuity or settlement continuity
    not necessarily a linguistic continuity, or indicate linguistic unity.
    One language can be spread across several cultures, as well as one culture with several
    Languages ​​can be connected. Immigrants can become a culture without apparent break
    also take over. Also, artifacts are mute (unless they are inscription bearers!).
    • Socio-cultural factors
    Clothing, social and legal practices and music can also be continuous
    Phenomena, however, they are as 'fashions' according to the required circumstances as well
    Are subject to change and are therefore altogether among the expressions in which
    there is a variety of exchanges and takeovers (borrowings)."


    DNA evidence is absent from their considerations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Ok so i've just begun looking through the document and already this is interesting to me:

    "Linguistic arguments on the prehistory of the Albanians§1) On the Autochtonous hypothesis


    According to the autochthonous hypothesis, the modern Albanians are supposed to be in their present day
    Residences (Albania, Kosova) formed in a linear way from the ancient Illyrians
    to have. The Albanian language is used here as a modern continuation of the ancient Illyrian
    considered. In support of this hypothesis, various arguments in the
    Discussion introduced: (see also the literature in the appendix)
    (a) Foreign language arguments:
    • Archeology, soil finds (continuity is postulated by Albanian archeology)
    Meanwhile, in modern archeology, the knowledge that finds are not without
    further with language (s) are linkable. Similarly, find continuity or settlement continuity
    not necessarily a linguistic continuity, or indicate linguistic unity.
    One language can be spread across several cultures, as well as one culture with several
    Languages ​​can be connected. Immigrants can become a culture without apparent break
    also take over. Also, artifacts are mute (unless they are inscription bearers!).
    • Socio-cultural factors
    Clothing, social and legal practices and music can also be continuous
    Phenomena, however, they are as 'fashions' according to the required circumstances as well
    Are subject to change and are therefore altogether among the expressions in which
    there is a variety of exchanges and takeovers (borrowings)."


    DNA evidence is absent from their considerations.
    Yes, the author contends that based on the linguistic evidence that both a Thracian and an Illyrian origin for Albanian can be excluded. He notes that there exist similarities with Messapic, another old Balkan language that was spoken in southern Italy at one point.

  24. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    This is the paper: http://www.albanologie.uni-muenchen....thnogenese.pdf

    Not sure if the google translator can make sense of it. If you're interested I'll translate the conclusions that summarize his points.
    Thank you markozd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Thank you markozd.
    He sounds like the brunette singer from Modern Talking.

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