Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Zanatis]

i am half albanian tosk. i am looking like a slav/russian boy. and my brother looking like latinos. i think tosk albanian must be slav or latin mixed.

VERY TRUE. Some Tosks are mixed with Siberians and some with Colombians.

 

[Dibran]

Are you laughing or cutting objects with a katana?

Omg. Lmao. That made me spit my tea out.
On another note, I will reply to your response when I get out of work. Best.

 

[Angela]

@Yetos,
They also get banned together.

Plus, they can't spell, but is that a surprise?

I see LeBrok has been dealing with it too: a sudden outbreak of stupidity as soon as they return.

 

[Bergin]

There is some political note in the choice of tosk as official albanian in 1972. There was a brief civil war after WW2 in albania, and the communists won. Their epicenter was is tosk albania. There were very few ghegs in the communist elite and also education was tougher for ghegs. Over 50 years it changed almost the landscape. Just to imagine: tirana, durres and elbasan used to speak ghegh dialects - now that is almost lost.

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[Zanatis]

There is some political note in the choice of tosk as official albanian in 1972. There was a brief civil war after WW2 in albania, and the communists won. Their epicenter was is tosk albania. There were very few ghegs in the communist elite and also education was tougher for ghegs. Over 50 years it changed almost the landscape. Just to imagine: tirana, durres and elbasan used to speak ghegh dialects - now that is almost lost.

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I agree with everything but the part in bold. Tirana, Durres, and Elbasan have not changed their Gheg dialect. It sounds even crazy to imagine people in Tirana, Elbasan, and Durres speaking Tosk or Standard. There are only a few people in Tirana of Southern origin that tend to speak a hybrid version of the Tirana variant and Standard, but that is all.

 

[Bergin]

I think that not too many are aware in these cities that their natural dialect is gheg. Bwt, nothing wrong with tosk .

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[Yetos]

Are you laughing or cutting objects with a katana?

Zanatis that is mistake of keyboard
NOT MINE

hahaha in Greek is χαχαχα

 

[LABERIA]

Dhe vi nga nji qytet 20000 banoresh afer lushnjes qe quet divjake,

quhet not quet.

ato qe thash duke mar si shembull fjalen "QIEN" jan te verteta.

Well, i think Zanatis explained very well this:

And qien is more similar to qihen in pronunciation then qen (dog). And we all know what qihen means lol

Exactly for this reason i suggested to Sile to be careful in my post 288.
The word qien does not exist in Albanian language.

 

[LABERIA]

These threads are becoming boring by the fault of someones, yes.
Concerning Y-E1b-V13 I think we have already threads discussing about it, everybody can read them. The Albania(ns) history is an unclear question, an enigma in some part, and I think it makes of it a very exiting subject; by fault of bad natonalism or superiority/inferiority complexes it becomes everytime a lethal trap, why??? Past is past, better we have to do now is to took lesson out of it, not to repeat the same stupid and "Pavlov's dogs" deportments. Sorry for the "teacher" 's tone.

There is nothing bad in your tone. You are one of the best members of this forum MOESAN. But you have to understand that our neighbors will never change. Hating Albanians is part of their national identity. They are feed with this hate against us.

Y-E-V13 for I think to date were there before Albanians, before Y-J2 of any sort, surely evolved at first between Pelopponese and Western (gone) Yougoslavia and increased in number in Central Balkans (in the knot of rivers = boulevards) during the metals ages, since Copper maybe; I don't think they ever have been an almost unique Y-haplo in a population as in clannic tribes like the ones which gave birth to Yamnaya, CWC or BB of Central-North - Albanians (first ones at least) could have been a part of a loose group of pops related to Thracians and Dacians, and maybe Illyrians if I rely on B. Sergent.
Caution: here under I make bets, oly bets, without any pretention/
I should bet the Ghegs are maybe the closest ones to ancestors (without seeding war within Albanians!) and that the suthern Tosques are ("maybe" again) in part a remnant of an older pop, akin to North-Italian and other more Western pops, separated in some part from them by late historical moves where Illyrians (badly defined and known), meta-Italics and Slavs took part.
Have all a good peaceful evening, for me it 'll be the case.

No, i think you are wrong. I am sorry to say but your bet is lost.

 

[LABERIA]

I'm impressed by your knowledge and I always read your comments carefully.
Since you've shown interest in the subject I'll tell you a few points that will clear up a lot of confusion as it's impossible for a foreigner to understand the actual situation, even with the help of internet and books.
To begin with, I advise you to refrain from using the Gheg and Tosk differentiation as it is a waste of time in our case. That's a simplified division between North and South and should not be taken seriously. What you are calling Tosks/Tosques are actually Tosks + Labs + Chams + Vlachs + others (Albanian South Epirots that are not Chams per se), all of them being different and many of them being more similar to "Ghegs" and vice-versa. On top of that, what you call Tosks is the post-Ottoman and post-Communist term for simply meaning Southerner.
So going to the idea of Ghegs being the closest ancestors, first that is incorrect because we're talking about the ancestors and not the actual post-Ottoman population. A lot happened during the last 600 years that resulted in what is confusing us nowadays.
To make it simple without ending up writing an essay, before Ghegs = Tosks, but with Serbs coming (especially Car Dusan) many tribes were pushed South, basically "Tosks" became "Chams", "Chams" became Arvanites, Ghegs went South and became Tosks or Labs, and similar Albanians came from Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro) and became Ghegs (I'm not saying they weren't Ghegs before). Then the Ottomans came and the same happened, but this time instead of internal movements and migration to Greece, add the migration to Italy.
Now it's during these last migrations that the real difference would appear slowly and that is because Southern Albanians were affected more by migration, therefore their country was way more depopulated. North Albania was also depopulated as many Northerners went to Italy or South Albania or Greece, but the difference is that it wasn't re-populated a lot afterwards.
Unlike North, South Albania got more urbanized and was basically "immigration friendly" during the Ottoman period, while North Albania was too mountainous and nobody would want to go there anyway, with the exception of Shkodra and surrounding areas, and big centers in Kosovo such as Prizren, Peja, Gjakova, Prishtina, etc.
Yet, until the early 20th century the population of South Albania was diverse but still not that "mixed", as the mountainous areas were still clannish and did not differ from Ghegs at all, whereas the urban centers were obviously well, urban centers People living in these cities could have been from anywhere in the Balkans mostly, as well as Turks, Arabs, Jews, Vlachs, you name it.
So long story short, if you were to test only "traditionally Albanian" regions in South, those differences that you see today will be greatly reduced. Similarly, people from Shkodra (North Albania) are more similar to "Tosks" than to other North Albanians, and that's because Shkodra was desolated and resettled again with people from all over the Ottoman Empire, whereas the original population fled either to the nearby mountains or to Venice (including my family).
P.s. As for the dialect, note that the Southern dialects are more archaic than the Northern ones, despite the rhotacism and other changes that it underwent. Personally, I come from the northernmost Gheg region and our local dialect shares a lot of archaic similarities with Tosk and not Gheg, which logically makes no sense.
Every Albanian actually "accuses" me of speaking a Gheg dialect with Tosk/Standard rules and tell me to "stop doing that, either speak Gheg or Standard, don't mix them up when you obviously can't".

It's an interesting post and i agree with part of it. What i don't understand is exactly the part underlined when you try to make things simple. Very complicated for an Albanian like me. I hope you will elaborate when you will be back.

 

[LABERIA]

I was born in the United States, so as a intermediate Gheg speaker, isn’t the Tosk dialect younger than the Gheg one, hence branching off from it? I can’t see how it went from Tosk to Gheg. Unless you meant something differently by archaic.
With regards to the south, I remember reading a document that the area of a Durres was majority Italian and Greeks with Jewish Vlach And Slavic minorities including lastly Albanians.
Supposedly after a earthquake took Durres in 1200, it left a vacuum for Northern Ghegs to fill. This roughly correlates with the mixture resulting in Arvanites Cams and other Southerners. The proposed age of Tosk dialect seems to roughly correlate to the time period of the Quake.
Perhaps, archaic forms are result of loan words?
But I know very little with phonetics and other language rules. I just know our dialect is Dibran. I mix words though as my mom is from Puka, so a bit of her dialect rubs off as well.

This is just your personal theory or there are scholars who support it? I am very curious.

 

[LABERIA]

Not true. If you're going to make a claim like that then post evidence please.

And he didn't posted these evidences to support his claims, as always. Sile never change.

 

[LABERIA]

There is some political note in the choice of tosk as official albanian in 1972. There was a brief civil war after WW2 in albania, and the communists won. Their epicenter was is tosk albania. There were very few ghegs in the communist elite and also education was tougher for ghegs. Over 50 years it changed almost the landscape. Just to imagine: tirana, durres and elbasan used to speak ghegh dialects - now that is almost lost.

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I don't agree with you and Zanatis about the Standard Albanian. I can say many things but i will invite you to read this:
http://www.pamfleti.com/intervista-...n-serbizma-me-justifikimin-se-ka-greqizma/amp

 

[Sile]

And he didn't posted these evidences to support his claims, as always. Sile never change.

I still do not know why you detest my albanian work colleague, mr Emini .............is it because of Qen ?

 

[LABERIA]

I still do not know why you detest my albanian work colleague, mr Emini .............is it because of Qen ?

I don't detest nobody. You have to explain this:

Thanks.
.
But to conclude, the reasons you give is why Albanian academics have decided that Tosk will be the national language of Albania ................due to it being older.

 

[Dibran]

This is just your personal theory or there are scholars who support it? I am very curious.

Not my personal opinion. Record, on an Albanian history site, of all places.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1322_Fitzsimons/index.html

[h=3]1322
Simon Fitzsimons:
Itinerary from Ireland
to the Holy Land[/h]​

Narratives of pilgrims on their way to the Holy Land provide a primary source of information for much of the eastern Mediterranean in the first half of the second millennium, and in one such narrative (1) dating from the year 1322, we find a passage about Albania. Although many pilgrims showed no more than a passing interest in the lands they visited en route to their goal, two Anglo-Irish pilgrims of the Franciscan Order, Symon Semeonis and Hugo Illuminator, whom we may refer to in English as Simon Fitzsimons and Hugh the Illuminator, were impressed by their short stopover in Albania, and the former vividly recorded what he saw, a rare glimpse of the Albanian coast in the first half of the fourteenth century. The 'Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam' (The Itinerary of Simon Fitzsimons from Ireland to the Holy Land) contains a wealth of information on matters as varied as customs inspections and procedures, costumes, coinage, raw materials and products of the countries he visited and of course on churches and holy sites. It is apparent from the narrative that in 1322 the port of Durrës had not recovered entirely from the disastrous earthquake which had struck it half a century earlier. The original population of the city was replaced to a certain extent by an influx of Albanian nomads from the countryside. That Albanian must now have been widely spoken on the coastal plain and in the mountain regions at the time can be inferred from Simon's initial observation that the province had a language of its own, i.e. Albanian. Within the city of Durrës, however, the 'barbaric Albanians' are referred to only fourth, after the urban Latins, Greeks and Jews, an indication that they had not yet formed the majority group. Interestingly enough, Simon refers to the Albanian 'barbarians' in Dubrovnik, too, noting: "In eadem dominantur Veneti, et ad eam confluunt Sclavi, Barbari, Paterini et alii scismatici negotiatores qui sunt in gestu, habitu et lingua Latinis in omnibus difformes" (The Venetians dominate in it (Dubrovnik) and Slavs, Barbarians, Paterines and other schismatic merchants frequent it, who are entirely different from the Latins in their customs, dress and language).
And then after spending a few days, we passed through the city of Ulcinj, which belongs to the king of Rascia (2), and sailed to Durrës, a city once famous and mighty by land and sea, subject to the emperor of the Greeks but now belonging to the prince of Romania (3), the brother of the aforementioned king of Jerusalem (4), (this city) being in the province of Albania. It should be noted that Albania is a province between Slavonia (5)and Romania, having a language of its own and which the aforementioned schismatic King of Rascia has subjected to his rule. For the Albanians themselves are schismatics, using the rites of the Greeks and are entirely like them in their dress and manner. For like the Greeks, they rarely if ever wear the cowl, but rather a white hat lowered almost flat to the front and raised at the back so that their hair, the length and beauty of which they are extremely proud, may appear more attractive to the eyes of the beholder. The Slavs on the other hand, of whom mention was made above, wear a white hat, oblong and round, on the top of which their nobles stick a long feather in order to be distinguished and recognized more easily by the peasants and common people. The city itself is very extensive in the circuit of its walls, but small and unpretentious in its buildings because it was once razed to the ground in an earthquake (6), and in the destruction, its wealthiest citizens and inhabitants were buried beneath their own palaces and indeed a good 24,000 are reported to have died. It is now sparsely populated and divided in religion, customs and language. For it is inhabited by Latins, Greeks, perfidious Jews and barbaric Albanians. In use among them are small tournois coins of which eleven are worth one Venetian grosso. They are in use at this rate in all of Romania. This city is two hundred miles from Dubrovnik. And then, taking advantage of favourable winds, we continued on to Vlora, a fortress of the Emperor of the Greeks, and to the island of Corfu on which there is a city called Corfu belonging to the aforementioned King of Jerusalem, this place being two hundred miles from Durrës.

(1)	cf. R. Elsie: Two Irish travellers in Albania, in: Albanien in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart. Internationales Symposium der Südosteuropa-Gesellschaft..., Munich 1991, p. 24-27.
(2)	Stephan Urosh III (r. 1322-1333).
(3)	Romania refers here to territories in the possession of the Byzantine Empire, in particular the Morea, and has nothing to do with modern Romania. The Prince of the Morea at the time was John, Count of Gravina (r. 1316-1335).
(4)	Robert the Good (r. 1309-1343).
(5)	The term Slavonia refers here to the Slavic territories of Dalmatia and Croatia.
(6)	The earthquake referred to Byzantine historian George Pachymeres probably occurred in July 1267.

[Extract from: Mario Esposito (ed.): Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam, Dublin 1960, p. 36 40. Translated from the Latin by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 26-27.]
​

 

[LABERIA]

Not my personal opinion. Record, on an Albanian history site, of all places.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1267_Pachymeres/index.html

"

[h=3]1267
George Pachymeres:
An Earthquake in Durrës[/h]​

Historian and scholar George Pachymeres (1242- ca. 1310) was born in Nicaea and held high office in Constantinople. His 'History' covers the reigns of Michael VIII Palaeologus (r. 1261-1282) and Andronicus II (r. 1282-1328) and constitutes the main source for the period. In it is a moving description of the terrible earthquake which struck the city of Durrës. French historian Alain Ducellier dates the tragic event to July 1267.
After some time, a pitiful and tearful event took place in Durrës. In the course of the month of July, unusual noises caused the earth to tremble continuously, noises which we would normally call a groaning. They portended that something dreadful was about to occur. One day, the din echoed more continuously and more forcefully than it had done previously. The fear which took hold of some people caused them to go and find shelter outside the city, as they were afraid that things would get worse. Night fell upon the groaning din of the previous day and with it, a strong earthquake took place, more violent than any other in living memory. It was not, as one might describe it, a trembling of the earth moving crosswise, but rather a repeated thumping and swaying such that in no time at all, the whole city was turned upside down and was razed to the ground. The houses and tall buildings, resisting not for a second, gave way and tumbled, burying their inhabitants within them. For there was nowhere for the people to escape because the buildings were constructed one beside the other. Indeed, much greater was the chance of survival for those who stayed indoors than for those who ran out of the houses which had been partially spared. None of the buildings survived intact. They collapsed onto one another, and any edifice which happened to have been spared the fate of destruction, was crushed in the collapse of the others. The catastrophe was too sudden and overwhelming to allow anyone to survive by fleeing. For many people, it was like a dream; they never found out in what event they perished. Small children and babies, not understanding what had happened, were buried in the rubble. The din and the tumult were such that the survivors, finding themselves before the frothing surge of the sea, imagined this to be not only the beginning of more agony but indeed the end of the world. As the city was at the seaside and the dreadful quake had taken place so suddenly, those who found themselves outdoors and who had been virtually deafened, confronted as they were by such a tumult and by the din of houses caving in one after the other, could envisage nothing other than the destruction of the entire universe.
The earthquake lasted for quite some time until nothing was left standing. Everything within the city had collapsed and engulfed the inhabitants, with the sole exception of the acropolis which stood fast and survived the quake. When day dawned, the inhabitants of the surrounding area rushed into the city at once and began digging, using everything they could get their hands on: pickaxes, pitchforks and any other tools they could find. Down on all fours, they began excavating, endeavouring of course to rescue any unfortunate victim who might still be alive, but what is more, looking to get their hands on all manner of wealth they could extract from the ruins. As it happened, with the property of the dead, perished the heirs, too, and there was no one left to claim his rightful property. Thus, having burrowed among the ruins for days and, with pitchforks in lieu of sickles, having reaped a harvest of gold, the Albanians and those living nearby eventually abandoned this ancient city to its solitude, a city now only vaguely recognizable, counted among existing cities not for its existence, but simply for its name alone. Its bishop, Nicetas, who had been there at the time, survived, though he was to bear the wounds of the disaster all over his body. At the sight of such a calamity, which no one would ever have thought possible, he panicked and fled, leaving the metropolis deprived not only of his person, but also of its inhabitants, of the splendour of its buildings and of its one-time hustle and bustle."

Source:

[Extract from: Georgii Pachymeris: Relationes historicae, Bonn (1835), V. 7, p. 456-461. Translated by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 12-13.]
​

This is an document that i have read long time ago.
With theory i was referring to this:

Supposedly after a earthquake took Durres in 1200, it left a vacuum for Northern Ghegs to fill. This roughly correlates with the mixture resulting in Arvanites Cams and other Southerners. The proposed age of Tosk dialect seems to roughly correlate to the time period of the Quake.

 

[Dibran]

This is an document that i have read long time ago.
With theory i was referring to this:

If you bothered reading my edit. I stated I accidently posted the wrong link. The one you responded to mentioned the actual Quake. The one below goes into majority/minority inhabitants. Read, check the sources. Don't just reply.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1322_...ons/index.html

1322
Simon Fitzsimons:
Itinerary from Ireland
to the Holy Land


Narratives of pilgrims on their way to the Holy Land provide a primary source of information for much of the eastern Mediterranean in the first half of the second millennium, and in one such narrative (1) dating from the year 1322, we find a passage about Albania. Although many pilgrims showed no more than a passing interest in the lands they visited en route to their goal, two Anglo-Irish pilgrims of the Franciscan Order, Symon Semeonis and Hugo Illuminator, whom we may refer to in English as Simon Fitzsimons and Hugh the Illuminator, were impressed by their short stopover in Albania, and the former vividly recorded what he saw, a rare glimpse of the Albanian coast in the first half of the fourteenth century. The 'Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam' (The Itinerary of Simon Fitzsimons from Ireland to the Holy Land) contains a wealth of information on matters as varied as customs inspections and procedures, costumes, coinage, raw materials and products of the countries he visited and of course on churches and holy sites. It is apparent from the narrative that in 1322 the port of Durrës had not recovered entirely from the disastrous earthquake which had struck it half a century earlier. The original population of the city was replaced to a certain extent by an influx of Albanian nomads from the countryside. That Albanian must now have been widely spoken on the coastal plain and in the mountain regions at the time can be inferred from Simon's initial observation that the province had a language of its own, i.e. Albanian. Within the city of Durrës, however, the 'barbaric Albanians' are referred to only fourth, after the urban Latins, Greeks and Jews, an indication that they had not yet formed the majority group. Interestingly enough, Simon refers to the Albanian 'barbarians' in Dubrovnik, too, noting: "In eadem dominantur Veneti, et ad eam confluunt Sclavi, Barbari, Paterini et alii scismatici negotiatores qui sunt in gestu, habitu et lingua Latinis in omnibus difformes" (The Venetians dominate in it (Dubrovnik) and Slavs, Barbarians, Paterines and other schismatic merchants frequent it, who are entirely different from the Latins in their customs, dress and language).
And then after spending a few days, we passed through the city of Ulcinj, which belongs to the king of Rascia (2), and sailed to Durrës, a city once famous and mighty by land and sea, subject to the emperor of the Greeks but now belonging to the prince of Romania (3), the brother of the aforementioned king of Jerusalem (4), (this city) being in the province of Albania. It should be noted that Albania is a province between Slavonia (5)and Romania, having a language of its own and which the aforementioned schismatic King of Rascia has subjected to his rule. For the Albanians themselves are schismatics, using the rites of the Greeks and are entirely like them in their dress and manner. For like the Greeks, they rarely if ever wear the cowl, but rather a white hat lowered almost flat to the front and raised at the back so that their hair, the length and beauty of which they are extremely proud, may appear more attractive to the eyes of the beholder. The Slavs on the other hand, of whom mention was made above, wear a white hat, oblong and round, on the top of which their nobles stick a long feather in order to be distinguished and recognized more easily by the peasants and common people. The city itself is very extensive in the circuit of its walls, but small and unpretentious in its buildings because it was once razed to the ground in an earthquake (6), and in the destruction, its wealthiest citizens and inhabitants were buried beneath their own palaces and indeed a good 24,000 are reported to have died. It is now sparsely populated and divided in religion, customs and language. For it is inhabited by Latins, Greeks, perfidious Jews and barbaric Albanians. In use among them are small tournois coins of which eleven are worth one Venetian grosso. They are in use at this rate in all of Romania. This city is two hundred miles from Dubrovnik. And then, taking advantage of favourable winds, we continued on to Vlora, a fortress of the Emperor of the Greeks, and to the island of Corfu on which there is a city called Corfu belonging to the aforementioned King of Jerusalem, this place being two hundred miles from Durrës.

(1)	cf. R. Elsie: Two Irish travellers in Albania, in: Albanien in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart. Internationales Symposium der Südosteuropa-Gesellschaft..., Munich 1991, p. 24-27.
(2)	Stephan Urosh III (r. 1322-1333).
(3)	Romania refers here to territories in the possession of the Byzantine Empire, in particular the Morea, and has nothing to do with modern Romania. The Prince of the Morea at the time was John, Count of Gravina (r. 1316-1335).
(4)	Robert the Good (r. 1309-1343).
(5)	The term Slavonia refers here to the Slavic territories of Dalmatia and Croatia.
(6)	The earthquake referred to Byzantine historian George Pachymeres probably occurred in July 1267.

[Extract from: Mario Esposito (ed.): Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam, Dublin 1960, p. 36 40. Translated from the Latin by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 26-27.]

 

[LABERIA]

If you bothered reading my edit. I stated I accidently posted the wrong link. The one you responded to mentioned the actual Quake.

Sorry, i didn`t noticed that you edited your post.

The one below goes into majority/minority inhabitants. Read, check the sources. Don't just reply.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1322_...ons/index.html

1322
Simon Fitzsimons:
Itinerary from Ireland
to the Holy Land


Narratives of pilgrims on their way to the Holy Land provide a primary source of information for much of the eastern Mediterranean in the first half of the second millennium, and in one such narrative (1) dating from the year 1322, we find a passage about Albania. Although many pilgrims showed no more than a passing interest in the lands they visited en route to their goal, two Anglo-Irish pilgrims of the Franciscan Order, Symon Semeonis and Hugo Illuminator, whom we may refer to in English as Simon Fitzsimons and Hugh the Illuminator, were impressed by their short stopover in Albania, and the former vividly recorded what he saw, a rare glimpse of the Albanian coast in the first half of the fourteenth century. The 'Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam' (The Itinerary of Simon Fitzsimons from Ireland to the Holy Land) contains a wealth of information on matters as varied as customs inspections and procedures, costumes, coinage, raw materials and products of the countries he visited and of course on churches and holy sites. It is apparent from the narrative that in 1322 the port of Durrës had not recovered entirely from the disastrous earthquake which had struck it half a century earlier. The original population of the city was replaced to a certain extent by an influx of Albanian nomads from the countryside. That Albanian must now have been widely spoken on the coastal plain and in the mountain regions at the time can be inferred from Simon's initial observation that the province had a language of its own, i.e. Albanian. Within the city of Durrës, however, the 'barbaric Albanians' are referred to only fourth, after the urban Latins, Greeks and Jews, an indication that they had not yet formed the majority group. Interestingly enough, Simon refers to the Albanian 'barbarians' in Dubrovnik, too, noting: "In eadem dominantur Veneti, et ad eam confluunt Sclavi, Barbari, Paterini et alii scismatici negotiatores qui sunt in gestu, habitu et lingua Latinis in omnibus difformes" (The Venetians dominate in it (Dubrovnik) and Slavs, Barbarians, Paterines and other schismatic merchants frequent it, who are entirely different from the Latins in their customs, dress and language).
And then after spending a few days, we passed through the city of Ulcinj, which belongs to the king of Rascia (2), and sailed to Durrës, a city once famous and mighty by land and sea, subject to the emperor of the Greeks but now belonging to the prince of Romania (3), the brother of the aforementioned king of Jerusalem (4), (this city) being in the province of Albania. It should be noted that Albania is a province between Slavonia (5)and Romania, having a language of its own and which the aforementioned schismatic King of Rascia has subjected to his rule. For the Albanians themselves are schismatics, using the rites of the Greeks and are entirely like them in their dress and manner. For like the Greeks, they rarely if ever wear the cowl, but rather a white hat lowered almost flat to the front and raised at the back so that their hair, the length and beauty of which they are extremely proud, may appear more attractive to the eyes of the beholder. The Slavs on the other hand, of whom mention was made above, wear a white hat, oblong and round, on the top of which their nobles stick a long feather in order to be distinguished and recognized more easily by the peasants and common people. The city itself is very extensive in the circuit of its walls, but small and unpretentious in its buildings because it was once razed to the ground in an earthquake (6), and in the destruction, its wealthiest citizens and inhabitants were buried beneath their own palaces and indeed a good 24,000 are reported to have died. It is now sparsely populated and divided in religion, customs and language. For it is inhabited by Latins, Greeks, perfidious Jews and barbaric Albanians. In use among them are small tournois coins of which eleven are worth one Venetian grosso. They are in use at this rate in all of Romania. This city is two hundred miles from Dubrovnik. And then, taking advantage of favourable winds, we continued on to Vlora, a fortress of the Emperor of the Greeks, and to the island of Corfu on which there is a city called Corfu belonging to the aforementioned King of Jerusalem, this place being two hundred miles from Durrës.

(1)	cf. R. Elsie: Two Irish travellers in Albania, in: Albanien in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart. Internationales Symposium der Südosteuropa-Gesellschaft..., Munich 1991, p. 24-27.
(2)	Stephan Urosh III (r. 1322-1333).
(3)	Romania refers here to territories in the possession of the Byzantine Empire, in particular the Morea, and has nothing to do with modern Romania. The Prince of the Morea at the time was John, Count of Gravina (r. 1316-1335).
(4)	Robert the Good (r. 1309-1343).
(5)	The term Slavonia refers here to the Slavic territories of Dalmatia and Croatia.
(6)	The earthquake referred to Byzantine historian George Pachymeres probably occurred in July 1267.

[Extract from: Mario Esposito (ed.): Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam, Dublin 1960, p. 36 40. Translated from the Latin by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 26-27.]

I have read even this document. But here we are not talking just about Durres.

Supposedly after a earthquake took Durres in 1200, it left a vacuum for Northern Ghegs to fill. This roughly correlates with the mixture resulting in Arvanites Cams and other Southerners. The proposed age of Tosk dialect seems to roughly correlate to the time period of the Quake.

You are talking about half Albania and Albanians and more. You are suggesting that some Northern Ghegs mixed with something not clear to me and that this mixture produced the Tosks and the age of Tosk dialects is roughly 700 years old. Correct me if i am wrong. I want from you, if this is possible, to elaborate this theory.
And another thing that i want to add is that Arvanites are not Chams. Of course many of them are of Cham origine. But the Albanian region with major contribution in the creation of Albanian medieval diaspora in Greece, i.e. Arvanites, is Laberia region.

 

[gjergj]

I entered to read with a hope of learning but am surprised with some of the comments. I guess seeking the truth it not for everyone. I will put forward a few things. in term of genetics:
When we refer to genetics to explain the existence of an ancient group, justification can't be just a single sample. even genetics follow a path. because there is an E-V13 in spain 8,000 years ago does not mean that E-V13 was significant and can lay any clain in Spain. the same with R1a in western balkan. there is no genetic data to justify R1a in any significance in western balkan before 5-7 century AD.
Also from genetics we know that current I2 subclades in the balkans came during this slavic wave and a minority R1a. so from what we know these two genetic groups brought the slavic langage and culture in west balkans. of course they assimilated considerable preslavic population in this area, particularly in southern serbia and montenegro. all other arguments about this issue are secondary and don't change this picture in any significant way.
So the real questions are about albanians, our origins and how we descend from Illyrians (at least I believe so). Genetically speaking the three main haplogroups that dominate northern albania/kosova are: Y E-V13; R1b-269 (mostly with very specific subclades) and J2b2 (with very specific subclade). even in the south of the country this haplogroups dominate but not the same as in the north, and in any case albanians are one the most homogeneous people in europe, which means they have more in common among themselves than most european nations have among themselves, example, serbs, german, etc. by the way this is not necessary a good thing, but its a fact. Most R1b and J2b2 is from broze age in western balkans whereas E-V13 is possible to be from Neolithic.
Also in the balkans we have had since before AD first a process of helenization and latter a process of latinization of the region. with the fall of this empires/cultures the process was partially reversed. so everyone can be wright if they pick a different timeline to support their argument. for example, Thucidities, a contemporaneous historian during the hight of the greek city states, and who wrote the Peloponnesean War, clearly refers to the tribes in southern part of Epir as barbarians. he doesn't just call them barbarians, he describes, their dress, weapon and mentality and methods of going to war which was completely different from that of the greek city states at the time. and than we can talk of Pirro of Epir that regardless of his genetics behaved either as hellenic elite or at least hellenized elite. considering how easily the Illyrians and also other balkan tribes were latinized very easily the same would have happened to the southern illyrians. Also, the greeks did not colonize greek lands, and all those greek colonies in Butrint, Corfu, apollonia, epidamus, etc indicate that the inland was non greek tribes that latter on went through some process of hellenization, which was reversed back latter.
the question still remains about Illyrian dna and I hope we might have some better minds give some proposals supported with some meaningful arguments.