Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[gjergj]

also based on the linguists the dialect split between albanian Geg and Tosk predated the arrival of the slavs in the balkans. (if this has anything to do with illyrian dna)

 

[Ygorcs]

I entered to read with a hope of learning but am surprised with some of the comments. I guess seeking the truth it not for everyone. I will put forward a few things. in term of genetics:
When we refer to genetics to explain the existence of an ancient group, justification can't be just a single sample. even genetics follow a path. because there is an E-V13 in spain 8,000 years ago does not mean that E-V13 was significant and can lay any clain in Spain. the same with R1a in western balkan. there is no genetic data to justify R1a in any significance in western balkan before 5-7 century AD.
Also from genetics we know that current I2 subclades in the balkans came during this slavic wave and a minority R1a. so from what we know these two genetic groups brought the slavic langage and culture in west balkans. of course they assimilated considerable preslavic population in this area, particularly in southern serbia and montenegro. all other arguments about this issue are secondary and don't change this picture in any significant way.
So the real questions are about albanians, our origins and how we descend from Illyrians (at least I believe so). Genetically speaking the three main haplogroups that dominate northern albania/kosova are: Y E-V13; R1b-269 (mostly with very specific subclades) and J2b2 (with very specific subclade). even in the south of the country this haplogroups dominate but not the same as in the north, and in any case albanians are one the most homogeneous people in europe, which means they have more in common among themselves than most european nations have among themselves, example, serbs, german, etc. by the way this is not necessary a good thing, but its a fact. Most R1b and J2b2 is from broze age in western balkans whereas E-V13 is possible to be from Neolithic.
Also in the balkans we have had since before AD first a process of helenization and latter a process of latinization of the region. with the fall of this empires/cultures the process was partially reversed. so everyone can be wright if they pick a different timeline to support their argument. for example, Thucidities, a contemporaneous historian during the hight of the greek city states, and who wrote the Peloponnesean War, clearly refers to the tribes in southern part of Epir as barbarians. he doesn't just call them barbarians, he describes, their dress, weapon and mentality and methods of going to war which was completely different from that of the greek city states at the time. and than we can talk of Pirro of Epir that regardless of his genetics behaved either as hellenic elite or at least hellenized elite. considering how easily the Illyrians and also other balkan tribes were latinized very easily the same would have happened to the southern illyrians. Also, the greeks did not colonize greek lands, and all those greek colonies in Butrint, Corfu, apollonia, epidamus, etc indicate that the inland was non greek tribes that latter on went through some process of hellenization, which was reversed back latter.
the question still remains about Illyrian dna and I hope we might have some better minds give some proposals supported with some meaningful arguments.

What do you think about the hypothesis based on linguistics that, comparing Albanian with the substate of Romanian, and considering that the "core" of the Latinized Balkans was in the valleys of present-day Serbia, considers it most likely that the ancestor of the Romanian language and the ancestor of the Albanian language (not necessarily all the people that now spoke them) lived side by side and were probably somewhere in Serbia?

The Paleo-Balkan substrate of Romanian looks very close to Albanian or at least a similar language, and if Albanian is really a descendant of Illyrian (or a closely similar group) then it probably did not come from the Carpathians, especially because the Latin colonization there was much less profound and much shorter than in the western part of the Balkans (Dacia was completely abandoned by the Romans in the 270s). The hypothesis that I read assumed that [Pre-]Proto-Romanian was spoken in the southern half of Serbia, and Albanian was nearby in the present territory of Kosovo and Eastern Albania, eventually retreating more and more to the west when the Slavs and Turks invaded the lower lands repeatedly.

I found it plausible. At least it could explain the strange things about the origins of Aromanian and Romanian (a Neo-Latin language mostly spoken in lands that were never colony of Rome or were colonized by Rome for just 150 years?), and also the links between Albanian and Romanian, since both are definitely not directly linked today.

 

[gjergj]

it seems possible. that the origin is in that part of the balkans. I am not a linguist, but on the other hand it is difficult to imagine that all the illyrians were latinized completely and just vanished. considering also the rough terrains in some part of this region. and even more importantly even though linguistically it might make sense, that part of the Illyria was hit first not just by the slavs but by the goths 2 centuries before the arrival of slavs when latin was still the king, as a language. it doesn't make sense for the language to have originated there when that part was partially celticized even before the roman invasion. it was well latinized bacause it was not a pocket an isolated pocket but part of the transit routes. for this reason it was hit by the goths and than everybody else that followed. from a nationalistic point a view this theory doesn't hurt any albanian pride ("_") but it is too open and urbanized area to have maintained and developed or originated the albanian language. in short historical events in that area don't seem to foster the environment for the origin of the language to be there. but just a hunch. no strong opinion.

 

[LABERIA]

it seems possible. that the origin is in that part of the balkans. I am not a linguist, but on the other hand it is difficult to imagine that all the illyrians were latinized completely and just vanished. considering also the rough terrains in some part of this region. and even more importantly even though linguistically it might make sense, that part of the Illyria was hit first not just by the slavs but by the goths 2 centuries before the arrival of slavs when latin was still the king, as a language. it doesn't make sense for the language to have originated there when that part was partially celticized even before the roman invasion. it was well latinized bacause it was not a pocket an isolated pocket but part of the transit routes. for this reason it was hit by the goths and than everybody else that followed. from a nationalistic point a view this theory doesn't hurt any albanian pride ("_") but it is too open and urbanized area to have maintained and developed or originated the albanian language. in short historical events in that area don't seem to foster the environment for the origin of the language to be there. but just a hunch. no strong opinion.

Google translation:

From the field of historical toponymy, starting with the right methodically way, from internal circumstances of Albanian Language, we conclude that the names of towns, rivers, mountains etc. from Ragusa up in the Chameria, Stip, Nis, Skopje Shari the shore of the Adriatic to the Ionic Sea, which have been known since ancient times, with the form they have today in the Albanian language testify to a continuum, for a continuity in the ground. These names in the majority represent a linguistic development of ancient forms in accordance with the phonetic laws of Albanian Language, and in a way that their forms today can not be explained except by means of her, finding no explanation by means of another language of the Balkan Peninsula: Ragusium: Rush, Scodra: Shkoder, Astibus: Shtip, Naissus: Nish, Scradus mons: Shar, Scupi: Shkup, Drivastum: Drisht, Pirustae: Pass of Prushit, Lissus: Lesh (si lat. Spissus: shpesh), Candavia: Kunavlja, Dyrrachion: Durres, Isamnus: Ishem, Scampinus: Shkumbini, Aulon: Vlone Vlore, Thyamis: Çam -.

This is one of the coercive evidence for autochthony of the Albanian people. The efforts of some scholars to circumvent or minimize this, are assigned a priori to fail, because here face excuses general in fact-based reasoning. In the middle there may not be as an occasional thing this, that the name of the ancient Alban in the center-northern Albania lives even today, as the national name of the oldest people, and the country's (Arber, Arben), in the land of Albanians and in the Albanian settlements in Italy and Greece.

EQREM ÇABEJ

 

[LABERIA]

The national and medieval name of Arber and Arberi (Albani) has been inherited by the Illyrian. The historical sources, especially the works of the ancient authors, write about names of place, people and populations formed with the root arb (alb). These names are encountered chiefly in the territory of South and Central Illyria; arbaios – means for Arbers in an inscription of the III Century B.C. found in Finiq; the city of Arbon is mentioned by the historian Polibius in the II Century B.C.; the city of Albanopoli as well as the Albans one can run across in the works of Ptolemy, II Century B.C.; the population called arboi and the city of Arbon, with its inhabitants called arbonios and arbonites are mentioned by Stephen the Byzantine in the VI Century A.D.
Out of these data, fragmented as they are, the remark of Ptolemy that in the rear of Dyrrah there lived an Illyrian tribe by the name of Alban, arbanite, constitutes the basis of the dissemination and use of this name with a wider implication. During the VII-VIII Century A.D. and later, this population became ever more important. The local medieval population that had preserved its ancient name gave the name to the region, Arbanon, Arberi. Initially, it was the name of a definite territory limited in space. Later it spread even to the other inhabitants of the provinces, which shared the same characteristics with the people of arbanon, including Prevalitania, New Epirus, Old Epirus and Dardania. Arbanon was initially the name of a small territory, which kept growing until it became a general denomination. The generalisation of the name was favoured by numerous converging economic, cultural, linguistic and ethnic factors, which were the same for all the population of the provinces we mentioned and which consequently were called by the same name, Arberi.

 

[LABERIA]

In the Illyrian toponym Dimallum in present- day Albania (including the Balkan toponyms Malontum, Maloventum, Malontina), which B. Dautaj identifies in the village Allambrez in the surroundings of Berat, Eqrem Çabej and other scholars, for instance, trace the Albanian word mal. This Illyrian-Albanian word mal has been preserved and appears in many late and modern patronyms and toponyms, out of which we mention the name of the eastern region of Malesheva (Macedonia), which Milivoje Pavlović and others derive from Illyrian-Albanian as of Thracian-Albanian origin. Even in the present Mali i Zi (Montenegro) the word mal, according to Milan Shuflay, besides being found in the name Mali i Zi itself (“Mal’si, Malcija, 1452 — Malisium ... 1463 — Malici, it bears also the Serbian name Crna Gora ... Muzaka, in 1512 was called Montenegro”), can also be found in the Albanian patronym assimilated in malazezë-serbë as Malonšić “with pure Albanian blood in the valley of the river Zeta”, or according to Branislav Djurdjev: “even Albanian villages were slavonized, and this is also proved by the cases Malonšić and Golemad”. As for the function of the Illyrian- Albanian word mal in onomastics as well as for its eventual calque in the same function in lat. montanj, in gr. oros, in lat.-vlah. plana — planina, and in sl.-srb. gora — šuma, see Doçi (1983).

The ancient toponym Durrahion — Durracium and the present Durrës on the Albanian coast are (according to J. Kastrati) of Albanian origin, from the Albanian words dy + rrahe. From the same word rrahe (forest clearing), but from the plural with metaphony rrih (rrah : rreh : rrih) and with a radix -hand a suffix and metathesis in the toponyms Rhizona : Risani in Montenegro was formed. According to Dujo Rendić Miočević, that place is considered as “an area of the Illyrian town Rhizona (probably from Rihesona — R. Doçi) at the Bay of Kotor ... which used to be the centre of Illyrian rulers and dynasties (Teuta, Baley) ... and Risinium is a Roman successor of Rhizona”. The name of the Illyrian castle Bauton, Butua (today Budva) in present-day Montenegro, has its origin also from an Illyrian-Albanian word (i,e) but-ë. There are more anthroponyms, patronyms and toponyms of Illyrian-Albanian origin in ethnic Albania which are connected with the word rrah (the names of present and medieval villages: Rahove and Rahavec in Kosovo; Rehove and Rinas in present-day Albania; Rahovicë and Reincë (?) in Southern Serbia; Rahovë in Montenegro etc.); cp. also the word i,e butë in the names of villages: Butoc in Kosovo; Butka in Albania; Bytol and Boutelis in Macedonia (Doçi 1990). According to the German scholar J. G. von Hahn, the name of the Illyrian tribe Dardan and its ancient territory Dardania (now diminished Kosovo) has its origin from the Illyrian-Albanian word dard — dardhë. E. Çabej agrees with him about the words Dardan and Dardani, but he associates them even with the names of the ancient Dardan towns and the present-day towns of Nish and Shkup, which, according to him, are words built up on the basis of the historical phonetics of Albanian. The name of the Dardan castle Ulkianum (“Hierher auch Ulcianum, in der Dardania”, Krahe 1925) derives from the Illyrian-Albanian word ulk : ujk : uk (wolf); in the same way this word (ulk : ujk, plural ulq : ujq) accounts for the name of the ancient and present town of Ulqin in Montenegro (Mayer 1957; Çabej 1977). During the reign of the Roman Emperor Primus Justinianus (527—565), who is thought to have built the town of Prishtina (Prima Justiniana = Prishtina?), Ulpiana became a well-known Christian centre, which was replaced by the Catholic Church of Gracanica during the later Slavic-Serbian rule (Gjini 1986). In Dardania Anton Mayer mentions two other Illyrian castles, Gurbikon in Nish and Gurasson, which derive from the Illyrian-Albanian word guri (stone) (Domi 1983).

Rexhep Doçi, Prishtina — Kosova

 

[gjergj]

these last posts make sense, especially the argument from Cabej, its a surprise that this argument can't be found in wikipedia english version, at least as an alternative theory.
another thing that I have noticed in the english version of wikipedia is the theory that all this tribes in Epir are considered greek tribes of the doric sub-type or as they call them now northwestern greeks. from what is today vlora and berat all the way to greece. it is written as a fact, not even as a theory. and it is consistent from different angles that you read about the region, city names, tribe names, etc. what is supprising is that it doesn't even have an alternative theory written in wikipedia english version. on many others subjects even outdated theories are presented. It seems that the Albanian Academy of Science is sleeping ("_").

 

[LABERIA]

these last posts make sense, especially the argument from Cabej, its a surprise that this argument can't be found in wikipedia english version, at least as an alternative theory.

ÇABEJ is not alternative, Çabej is History. He was the scholar that our neighbors never had. We were lucky that we had an scholar like him. Our neighbors, in North and South had the possibility to have some of the best scholars in the world because they had the oportunity to have access in the archives of respective churches. And the history is preserved exactly in the archives of the churches. But they even invented medieval documents. And for this reason noone of them is taken seriously by the international scholars.Çabej is still today an respected scholar because first of all he never made an pact with the devil, with nationalism.
Wikipedia was initially an good idea, but unfortunately there are many problems with Wiki. This problems with Wiki are present with part of history of many country of the world. But what is happening actually with the pages of Wiki about the history of Albanian and Albanians it`s scandalous. Our neighbors after fixing the problems with their history, they have practically decided to write our history in Wiki. It`s a scandal. Unfortunately, even some Albanians born and raised in diaspora, use as their only source of information the pages of Wiki. You have some examples even in this thread.

another thing that I have noticed in the english version of wikipedia is the theory that all this tribes in Epir are considered greek tribes of the doric sub-type or as they call them now northwestern greeks. from what is today vlora and berat all the way to greece. it is written as a fact, not even as a theory. and it is consistent from different angles that you read about the region, city names, tribe names, etc. what is supprising is that it doesn't even have an alternative theory written in wikipedia english version. on many others subjects even outdated theories are presented.

The quote of Rexhep Doçi start with this words:

In the Illyrian toponym Dimallum in present- day Albania (including the Balkan toponyms Malontum, Maloventum, Malontina), which B. Dautaj identifies in the village Allambrez in the surroundings of Berat, Eqrem Çabej and other scholars, for instance, trace the Albanian word mal.

I want to explain something about this Dimallum or Dimale. In Albanian language the number two is dy but in some dialects, for example in Çam or Dibran dialect, they say di. The Albanian word mal is translated in English mountain, the plural is male. Now this ancient Illyrian city Dimale is in Berat and it is exactly near two(dy,di) mountains(male), Tomorr and Shpirag.
Of course our neighbors will continue to deny all these and many other evidences, it`s part of their nationalistic agenda. Because they have the necessity to give "historical" explanations about the fact that they have invaded in the last 150 years Albanian lands and have killed, expelled and assimilated the native Albanian population. In this crusade of disinformation they are very good, because they have the money and the support of their masters. It`s not a secret that Great Britan was during the last two centuries the most biggest supporter of the the Greek chauvinistic ideology Megaiidea. And when we say british scholars, it`s Oxbridge. But not all the british scholars support this kind of theories. For example read one of their recent scholars:

2002
Miranda Vickers:
The Cham Issue: Albanian National and Property Claims in Greece


A small but vocal movement is seeking redress for the massacre and expulsion of Muslim ethnic Albanian inhabitants from Greek territory during the period 1912-45. The Greek government refuses to discuss the issue, which could be fairly easily solved to Greek advantage. Meantime, it is likely to be exploited by both pro- and anti-Albanian elements in the Balkans.

Introduction

The Chams are the ethnic Albanian, and predominantly Muslim, population from the area of north western Greece known to Greeks as Threspotia and to Albanians as Chameria. The region, which is centred around the Tsamis river, extends from Butrint and the mouth of the Acheron River to Lake Prespa in the north, eastward to the Pindus mountains and south as far as Preveza and the Gulf of Arta. Nineteenth century British travellers such as Lord Byron and his companion John Hobhouse noted the preponderance of Albanian-speakers in these regions. While there is much comment focused on the position of the Greek minority in Albania, there is very little information about the Albanian minority which remained in Greece after the founding of the Albanian state. Most of these Albanians were originally Christian Orthodox by religion, but converted to Islam during the latter years of the Ottoman occupation.


Historical Background
The name 'Chameria' comes from the ancient Illyrian name for the Tsamis River, which traversed the territory of the ancient Illyrian tribe of Thesprotes. Chameria was part of the Roman Empire before being conquered by the Byzantines, and in the thirteenth century it became part of the Epirus despotate. In the second half of the fourteenth century it was included in the Albanian despotate of Arta. After the Ottoman invasion in the 15th century it was firstly in the sanjak (municipality) of Delvina, then in that of Janina. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the mostly Albanian population of northern Chameria - from Konispol to the Gliqi river - was forcibly converted to Islam, whilst those living south of the Gliqi down to Preveza Bay remained Orthodox Christians.

Source:
[reprint of: Miranda Vickers: The Cham Issue: Albanian National and Property Claims in Greece. ISBN 1-903584-76-0 (Conflict Studies Research Centre, Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, Surrey 2002), reprint in: Südosteuropa, Zeitschrift für Gegenwartsforschung, Munich, 2002, 51, 4-6, p. 228-249.]

It seems that the Albanian Academy of Science is sleeping ("_").

Unfortunately is true. For example our best geneticists are some people who are members in forum. I want to make clear that i appreciate their job, but our institutions are inexistent in all this story.

 

[Gannicus]

First of all i would like to give u my personal idea of the original DNA of proto albanians, this is based on the results, mostly taken from wikipedia as a source, and logic, "logic about what?" would u say, logic about different things, such as human society of ancient times, habits, traditions, etc.


Okay, first of all i would start saying that as a principle from one haplogroup can generate different culture groups (it can occure sometimes), but from different haplogroups can't born a single culture and language, but different haplogroups carriers can mix and give birth to civilizations, but all this by absorbing culture, language and partially or totally the uses and habits of one of them, the most dominant.

Said this before speaking exactly and more precisely about albanians, i will start painting an hypotethic picture of the times when proto-albanians and the other indo-european people had origin and where shaping their cultural and genetic traits.
This hypotetic time is around 10000 BC, but keep in mind that going on with the speech even the timeline will get pushed forward gradually.

-Birth place, origin and development of I.E. people:

Starting speaking about indo-european people recent(not so recent but ok...) studies, and my suggestions too, have theorized anatolia as the birth place of indo-european language, culture and "R" haplogroup (typical of indo-european people).
I.E. people started spreading from anatolia around 20000 BC, at this point they where all R1A, end here comes an original and a little bit controversal theory, that originally I.E. where speaking SATEM, that lately developed in some of them as CENTUM, why this? Because typically satem speakers are mostly carriers of R1A, rarely R1B, examples?(Slavs, Iranics, Indics, ancient greeks, even Baltics originally aldo tosay have N1C, around 30% in scandinavia: birthplace of germanic peoples,thracians).
So as for the germanic people: originally in scandinavia I1 and then in germans who came from scandinavia to Jutland(Denmark) have I2.
I would apply the same concept for SATEM and CENTUM languages, because it is R1A the mother of R1B and not viceversa, same for culture.
Now about J2B and E3B, here comes the most exciting part in my opinino, i have a theory to explain in all this the role of these 2 folks here.
At this time "R" people where where by a cultural point of view tipically warriors, horse riders, mostly dedited to primitive sheepherding activities and quite undeveloped, they where military strong but economically weak, they where able sword crafters but they didn't know to farm, now the "J" people come in, they are great farmers, good basic traders, but still lack on military strenght, so "R" people who were more able military wouldn't waste these peoples (J) because they saw in them a great potential of taking knowledge about agriculture and the stuff i wich J people where good but not R, they both saw in each other a potential of alliance, but between them those who had the true power and rule on their hande where the "R" carriers, so initially having warm relations with each other "R" started using violence to take over "J" as their sudden, so probably they clashed on them and of course they(R) had the best cuz they where more developed military.
So started a period of peasantry where J people where absorbed into I.E. culture and language, in these times the first form of factions and ruling classes started, first semi-civilizations started creating in anatolia, meanwhile some R1A people started searching for new lands to take over, they so passed both through the caucasus and the steppes on the caspian sea, and they got to modern day Russia, here Iranic people started developing, not more far started to develope proto-Baltics, and from some of these R1A people who went even norhtern to scandinavia proto-germans imbreeded with I1 people and were born, meanwhile in anatolia there was another haplogroup E, that came i suppose from modern day egypt, probably "E" people were part of the Nile river's first civilizations, maybe for some reason related to charesties in the desert they started going eastern and got to anatolia, but this tim they where mostly nomadic shepherds, not farmers ( actually berbers are nomadic shepherds ) in anatolia they brought sheeps i suppose, or more in general they came with their animals, they just where absorbed by "R" people but still like J carriers because of their different origin with I.E. they where considered just as second class peasants on wich to rule, they were Indo-europeanized, lost language and culture, and started a new life under the rule of their overlords, but maybe some of E and J just where able to get somehow infìdipendence and where on their own.
In all this scenario it wouldn't be strange to find some primitive forms of xenophobia and discrimination by "R" rulers on "J" and "E", it could be quite easy at primitive times that the system of classes (like in india) started developing, it was a common feature mostly about I.E. people.
In this period first city states where born a little bit easter, in the fertile crescent aka Mesopotamia, but sooner even I.E. people started becoming sedentary and creating their cities, firstly basic villages then more complex city-states, and in all this melting pot hellenic civilization starts(not only them), greeks in all this where the only R1A to pass through modern day istanbul and not via caspian-Russia-ukraine-Dacia because before these times something that to us seems a simple easy cross straight, the straight of dardanelles, it was to deep and boat techology in the times when Proto-Iranic, Indic, etc... were still in anatolia was to undeveloped, so greeks with boats crossed the dardanelles and settled from there to pelopnnese and greek islands, in all of these E and J people where their peasants, how to justify it? Greeks like Romans, had the so called plebe aka second class citizens, but unlike rome where they where like this cuz of being poor, in greece they were war prisoners, probably greeks had some wars with E people, and they took them as the so called ILOTES, the second class citizens, this could be explained cuz E people being mostly shepherds had a more war-like behavior and it was easy to think that for one reason or the other they clashed with proto-greeks but greeks where military more developes and they took "E" as peasants(ILOTES).
In this scenario J people where more liked by greeks, i think greeks inbred with them and J automatically was hellenized peacefully.
This explain the mistery of E and J in the balkans being mostly related to greeks, in all this is not clear if thracians followed the greek way or took long times before the way of the other group(Indic-Iranic-gemanic-slavic-baltic-dacian fore fathers).
Greek civilization sprode till modern day albania, iwould think that some primitive greek speaking communities where even formed to the way of kosovo and even south serbia(presheva), i would think that in this situation the greek ruling class was a combo of R1A+J2B, while the most unfortunate of all were the E peasants who at the first occasion ran away from greece and went deep into central balkan:southern bosnja, montenegro, southern serbia, southern romania(Wallachia).

(NOTE: when i referr as serbia, wallachia, etc. i take names of late comer's kingdoms and countries just as a geographical referr.)

In all this finally we come to albanians, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa finally my preferred part.
I suggest albanians to have been originated from proto-dacians in eastern europe (modern day moldova + west ukraine), proto-abanians were SATEM speakers, they were carriers of R1A, as dacian culture started developing albanians were part of it, they lived in contact with I2 carriers, but unlike others, Dacians were quite conservative and this would explain why they didn't imbred with them but live just near them, this would explain why modern day albanians rarely imbreed with other peoples, common feature with dacians.
Albanians manteined their shepherding-hunter gathering uses, cuz they didn't stay into anatolia enough to cross with J and E carriers who came later, so proto albanians where probably still hunters,warriors and primitive I.E.

Now proofs and points in favpur to this theory:

-Albanians rarely imbreed with other peoples, dacians too.

-Albanians are proud fighters and temeble horse riders, dacians were too, and still the birth place was near sarmatians who were horse riders too, so the cultural enviroment was homgeneous.

-Albanians are historically shepherds and not farmers, they became farmers just in the eraly midlle ages, when they decended, this explains the lack of agricultural autoctonous words.

-If albanians stayed to anatolia unlike they did, they would cross-breed with J, learn agriculture and probably become a great civilization like greeks, with a lot of development by culture, urbanistics, trade, etc...
but albanians aren't typical farmers and don't have alphabet, legal documentation, and a stable head of state.

-By poltics albanians were lords of them-selves and never wanted a kinf on their head, there was a familiar-clan system, so they were divided into indipendently governed territories, like germans, dacinas, and mostly of ancient eastern european people, like sarmatians too.

-Albanians fight to death better than been conquered, we have roman records that say that when they captured dacian settlements people rather killed themselves than get captured in most of the cases.

-Albanian lowlands terms were lost during latinization in the roman era, so they use roman terms instead of their own, we lost even the word for horse wich is now Kal from latin Caballus, so it was easy to think that if u loose such an important and archaic word such as horse u can slowly loose every one.

-Albanian is a heavely but just partially latinized language, only explanaton is that albanians live in one of the last regios to be conquered by romans, Dacia was the last and wasn't even conquered entirely, this could explain the only partially latinization.

-Albanians had a nomadic-shepherding life style so they didn't have sedentary settlemesnts but just some villages from wich they moved seasonly to follow sheeps.
This would then eplain the complete lack of typical albanian toponysms if not just some basic ones for villages,cuz albanians became sedentary lately.
Aromanians a cousin people of both Albanians and Romanians were and still are nomadic, gues what they conserved this lifestyle unlike their albanians and romanians cousins and so today are just sparsely distributed minorities among most of balkan countries.(Albanians originally where nomadic too)

-Albanians have been then pushed by slavic-gothic-avaric hordes to modern day kosovo and then to albania, so modern day albanians J and E carriers were there before albanian arrival, when albanians got there in the middle ages, they immediately absorbed E carriers mostly founded in Kosovo and northern region of albania because of similar lifestyle, while J carriers never changed life style they are mostly in central southern albania and practice agriculture, unlike the rest of albanians.


Why then not illyrians?
Illyrians came into the balkans after greeks, around 2000 years after greeks.
They were a centum speaking people, how to justify it? following my theory when even greeks left anatolia, the remaining people there, proto celts, illyrians, and roto italics + others developed a new way of speaking, they gave birth to centum, and because of their isolation from other R carriers they developed into R1B, and started for differnet reasons to leave anatolia, illyrians went to approximatively modern day jugoslavia, italians to Italy and celts, more west+balkans+a little bit wvery where.

-Illyrians were all latinized after the roman empire, and they were some of the first to be conwuered after the romans consolidated the italian peninsula+going western to france and spain, so if albanians were there 1005 sure they would be latinized.

-Albanians have their closest ties with romanians, we know that romanian and dalmatian ( aka latinized illyrian ) are part of 2 different latin brenches, the division could be suggested by the centum-satem difference, illyrian=centum and romanians=satem.

-Albanians have no place names at all in albania or kosovo or even east or south serbia to tie back to their presence there.

-The Dalmatian(aka illyrian) latin type of words are rarely found among albanians, but there is a little bit of them this would suggest that albanians didn't come directly from their homeland to albania, but had a 2 or 3 stage phases of migrate and stop, migrate and stop, and i would say that this happened cuz of 2/3 different waves of hordes, 1/2 Gothic+mongol and 1 slavic, this is how we got where we are.


Conclusion albanians are one of the lots of dacian clans, what we should do to proove it? research of dacian tombs, and try to decript their language and prove by DNA tests on their bones that they are carriers only of R1A mostly(a lot of albanians in macedonia who never mixed with slavs or greeks have non slavic R1A).

Every critic or reply is accepted happily )))

 

[Gannicus]

sorry for my english, i wanted to say instead of 1005 , 100%, and about dalmatian loanwords as we had 2/3 go, stop, go stop and then settle waves when we were in east serbia we absorbed just some Dalmatian loan words, sroun 30.

 

[Sile]

First of all i would like to give u my personal idea of the original DNA of proto albanians, this is based on the results, mostly taken from wikipedia as a source, and logic, "logic about what?" would u say, logic about different things, such as human society of ancient times, habits, traditions, etc.
Okay, first of all i would start saying that as a principle from one haplogroup can generate different culture groups (it can occure sometimes), but from different haplogroups can't born a single culture and language, but different haplogroups carriers can mix and give birth to civilizations, but all this by absorbing culture, language and partially or totally the uses and habits of one of them, the most dominant.
Said this before speaking exactly and more precisely about albanians, i will start painting an hypotethic picture of the times when proto-albanians and the other indo-european people had origin and where shaping their cultural and genetic traits.
This hypotetic time is around 10000 BC, but keep in mind that going on with the speech even the timeline will get pushed forward gradually.
-Birth place, origin and development of I.E. people:
Starting speaking about indo-european people recent(not so recent but ok...) studies, and my suggestions too, have theorized anatolia as the birth place of indo-european language, culture and "R" haplogroup (typical of indo-european people).
I.E. people started spreading from anatolia around 20000 BC, at this point they where all R1A, end here comes an original and a little bit controversal theory, that originally I.E. where speaking SATEM, that lately developed in some of them as CENTUM, why this? Because typically satem speakers are mostly carriers of R1A, rarely R1B, examples?(Slavs, Iranics, Indics, ancient greeks, even Baltics originally aldo tosay have N1C, around 30% in scandinavia: birthplace of germanic peoples,thracians).
So as for the germanic people: originally in scandinavia I1 and then in germans who came from scandinavia to Jutland(Denmark) have I2.
I would apply the same concept for SATEM and CENTUM languages, because it is R1A the mother of R1B and not viceversa, same for culture.
Now about J2B and E3B, here comes the most exciting part in my opinino, i have a theory to explain in all this the role of these 2 folks here.
At this time "R" people where where by a cultural point of view tipically warriors, horse riders, mostly dedited to primitive sheepherding activities and quite undeveloped, they where military strong but economically weak, they where able sword crafters but they didn't know to farm, now the "J" people come in, they are great farmers, good basic traders, but still lack on military strenght, so "R" people who were more able military wouldn't waste these peoples (J) because they saw in them a great potential of taking knowledge about agriculture and the stuff i wich J people where good but not R, they both saw in each other a potential of alliance, but between them those who had the true power and rule on their hande where the "R" carriers, so initially having warm relations with each other "R" started using violence to take over "J" as their sudden, so probably they clashed on them and of course they(R) had the best cuz they where more developed military.
So started a period of peasantry where J people where absorbed into I.E. culture and language, in these times the first form of factions and ruling classes started, first semi-civilizations started creating in anatolia, meanwhile some R1A people started searching for new lands to take over, they so passed both through the caucasus and the steppes on the caspian sea, and they got to modern day Russia, here Iranic people started developing, not more far started to develope proto-Baltics, and from some of these R1A people who went even norhtern to scandinavia proto-germans imbreeded with I1 people and were born, meanwhile in anatolia there was another haplogroup E, that came i suppose from modern day egypt, probably "E" people were part of the Nile river's first civilizations, maybe for some reason related to charesties in the desert they started going eastern and got to anatolia, but this tim they where mostly nomadic shepherds, not farmers ( actually berbers are nomadic shepherds ) in anatolia they brought sheeps i suppose, or more in general they came with their animals, they just where absorbed by "R" people but still like J carriers because of their different origin with I.E. they where considered just as second class peasants on wich to rule, they were Indo-europeanized, lost language and culture, and started a new life under the rule of their overlords, but maybe some of E and J just where able to get somehow infìdipendence and where on their own.
In all this scenario it wouldn't be strange to find some primitive forms of xenophobia and discrimination by "R" rulers on "J" and "E", it could be quite easy at primitive times that the system of classes (like in india) started developing, it was a common feature mostly about I.E. people.
In this period first city states where born a little bit easter, in the fertile crescent aka Mesopotamia, but sooner even I.E. people started becoming sedentary and creating their cities, firstly basic villages then more complex city-states, and in all this melting pot hellenic civilization starts(not only them), greeks in all this where the only R1A to pass through modern day istanbul and not via caspian-Russia-ukraine-Dacia because before these times something that to us seems a simple easy cross straight, the straight of dardanelles, it was to deep and boat techology in the times when Proto-Iranic, Indic, etc... were still in anatolia was to undeveloped, so greeks with boats crossed the dardanelles and settled from there to pelopnnese and greek islands, in all of these E and J people where their peasants, how to justify it? Greeks like Romans, had the so called plebe aka second class citizens, but unlike rome where they where like this cuz of being poor, in greece they were war prisoners, probably greeks had some wars with E people, and they took them as the so called ILOTES, the second class citizens, this could be explained cuz E people being mostly shepherds had a more war-like behavior and it was easy to think that for one reason or the other they clashed with proto-greeks but greeks where military more developes and they took "E" as peasants(ILOTES).
In this scenario J people where more liked by greeks, i think greeks inbred with them and J automatically was hellenized peacefully.
This explain the mistery of E and J in the balkans being mostly related to greeks, in all this is not clear if thracians followed the greek way or took long times before the way of the other group(Indic-Iranic-gemanic-slavic-baltic-dacian fore fathers).
Greek civilization sprode till modern day albania, iwould think that some primitive greek speaking communities where even formed to the way of kosovo and even south serbia(presheva), i would think that in this situation the greek ruling class was a combo of R1A+J2B, while the most unfortunate of all were the E peasants who at the first occasion ran away from greece and went deep into central balkan:southern bosnja, montenegro, southern serbia, southern romania(Wallachia).
(NOTE: when i referr as serbia, wallachia, etc. i take names of late comer's kingdoms and countries just as a geographical referr.)
In all this finally we come to albanians, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa finally my preferred part.
I suggest albanians to have been originated from proto-dacians in eastern europe (modern day moldova + west ukraine), proto-abanians were SATEM speakers, they were carriers of R1A, as dacian culture started developing albanians were part of it, they lived in contact with I2 carriers, but unlike others, Dacians were quite conservative and this would explain why they didn't imbred with them but live just near them, this would explain why modern day albanians rarely imbreed with other peoples, common feature with dacians.
Albanians manteined their shepherding-hunter gathering uses, cuz they didn't stay into anatolia enough to cross with J and E carriers who came later, so proto albanians where probably still hunters,warriors and primitive I.E.
Now proofs and points in favpur to this theory:
-Albanians rarely imbreed with other peoples, dacians too.
-Albanians are proud fighters and temeble horse riders, dacians were too, and still the birth place was near sarmatians who were horse riders too, so the cultural enviroment was homgeneous.
-Albanians are historically shepherds and not farmers, they became farmers just in the eraly midlle ages, when they decended, this explains the lack of agricultural autoctonous words.
-If albanians stayed to anatolia unlike they did, they would cross-breed with J, learn agriculture and probably become a great civilization like greeks, with a lot of development by culture, urbanistics, trade, etc...
but albanians aren't typical farmers and don't have alphabet, legal documentation, and a stable head of state.
-By poltics albanians were lords of them-selves and never wanted a kinf on their head, there was a familiar-clan system, so they were divided into indipendently governed territories, like germans, dacinas, and mostly of ancient eastern european people, like sarmatians too.
-Albanians fight to death better than been conquered, we have roman records that say that when they captured dacian settlements people rather killed themselves than get captured in most of the cases.
-Albanian lowlands terms were lost during latinization in the roman era, so they use roman terms instead of their own, we lost even the word for horse wich is now Kal from latin Caballus, so it was easy to think that if u loose such an important and archaic word such as horse u can slowly loose every one.
-Albanian is a heavely but just partially latinized language, only explanaton is that albanians live in one of the last regios to be conquered by romans, Dacia was the last and wasn't even conquered entirely, this could explain the only partially latinization.
-Albanians had a nomadic-shepherding life style so they didn't have sedentary settlemesnts but just some villages from wich they moved seasonly to follow sheeps.
This would then eplain the complete lack of typical albanian toponysms if not just some basic ones for villages,cuz albanians became sedentary lately.
Aromanians a cousin people of both Albanians and Romanians were and still are nomadic, gues what they conserved this lifestyle unlike their albanians and romanians cousins and so today are just sparsely distributed minorities among most of balkan countries.(Albanians originally where nomadic too)
-Albanians have been then pushed by slavic-gothic-avaric hordes to modern day kosovo and then to albania, so modern day albanians J and E carriers were there before albanian arrival, when albanians got there in the middle ages, they immediately absorbed E carriers mostly founded in Kosovo and northern region of albania because of similar lifestyle, while J carriers never changed life style they are mostly in central southern albania and practice agriculture, unlike the rest of albanians.
Why then not illyrians?
Illyrians came into the balkans after greeks, around 2000 years after greeks.
They were a centum speaking people, how to justify it? following my theory when even greeks left anatolia, the remaining people there, proto celts, illyrians, and roto italics + others developed a new way of speaking, they gave birth to centum, and because of their isolation from other R carriers they developed into R1B, and started for differnet reasons to leave anatolia, illyrians went to approximatively modern day jugoslavia, italians to Italy and celts, more west+balkans+a little bit wvery where.
-Illyrians were all latinized after the roman empire, and they were some of the first to be conwuered after the romans consolidated the italian peninsula+going western to france and spain, so if albanians were there 1005 sure they would be latinized.
-Albanians have their closest ties with romanians, we know that romanian and dalmatian ( aka latinized illyrian ) are part of 2 different latin brenches, the division could be suggested by the centum-satem difference, illyrian=centum and romanians=satem.
-Albanians have no place names at all in albania or kosovo or even east or south serbia to tie back to their presence there.
-The Dalmatian(aka illyrian) latin type of words are rarely found among albanians, but there is a little bit of them this would suggest that albanians didn't come directly from their homeland to albania, but had a 2 or 3 stage phases of migrate and stop, migrate and stop, and i would say that this happened cuz of 2/3 different waves of hordes, 1/2 Gothic+mongol and 1 slavic, this is how we got where we are.
Conclusion albanians are one of the lots of dacian clans, what we should do to proove it? research of dacian tombs, and try to decript their language and prove by DNA tests on their bones that they are carriers only of R1A mostly(a lot of albanians in macedonia who never mixed with slavs or greeks have non slavic R1A).
Every critic or reply is accepted happily )))

info for you
Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian were dialects of the same language, although most linguists believe that they are different languages. On the other hand, Ancient and Medieval historians consider Illyrian as Thraco-Dacian (Strabo), while Suidas Lexicon (10th century AD) states that “Illyrians [are] Barbarian Thracians” (illírioi barbároi thrákoi).
Although Albanian has a series of common phonological and syntactic features with Romanian, there are some important differences as well. The Epirotes of ancient times lived where Albanians live today.
.
Strabo (7, 7) also shows that Epirotes lived south of river Shkumb and Illyrians to the north. The Romans used to make a clear distinction between Illyrians proprie dicti (proper) and Illyrians in general. In their understanding, Epirots were not Illyrians proper. Illyrians proper were those from Illyria, Dalmatia, and the two Pannonias.
.
In modern Albanian, there is no labialization of Proto-Indo-European labiovelars as in Thraco-Dacian, Illyrian, Osco-Umbrian, and Continental Celtic. Thus, PIE *kwetwor ‘four’ > Albanian katër ‘id’ or PIE *wl̥kwos ‘wolf’ < Albanian ulk ‘id’ since it was peripheral as it was the case with the Q-dialects of the Italic and Celtic groups.
.
Thraco-Illyrian group which did the same thing, but only to the labiovelars followed by back vowels (*a, *o), while the labiovelars followed by a front vowel (e, i) were palatalized along with regular velar sounds. One may conclude that in Thraco-Illyrian the phenomenon of palatalization before a front vowel took place in about the same time as the one of the bi-labialization of the labiovelars. I should emphasize that bi-labialization of labiovelars did not reach the peripheral dialects such as Insular Celtic, Latino-Faliscan and Epirote dialect (from which Proto-Albanian evolved). The ancestors of Albanian are the Epirotic dialects (see supra). One can see clearly that the Albanian form is not descended from Illyrian.

 

[Gannicus]

Fisrt of all thank u for replying me so quick and politely, thank you, and then aldo i have some critics to do to you i even have some points where i see a possible reasonalbe theory, but i think i will properly reply tomorrow around 9:00 PM of italian hour because now it is quite late here in europe and i would like to sleep a bit, but thank u again, tomorrow we will discuss, cheers...

 

[Gannicus]

Aldo your theory by a linguistic point of view could seem very reasonable, it isn't by a logical and historical about albanian habits.

First of all if we albanians were epirotes we would only have R1B+J2B while E wouldn't be so typical.

Then we wouldn't be typically shepherds but would me more farmers and would have our lowland terms instead of importing them, then we would ve coastal people too so why don't we have authoctonous indigenous terms about sea?

Then we albanians as I said by an historical point of view would simply be all latinized + woulde compromized by a strong influence of greek, but in albanian is quazi absent.

Then if we were there before why we don't have typical toponysms or at least we have some really limited in numbers just for rural villages? If we were there how is it possible that slavic tribes nowadays extinguished had their own villages such as poloska, pogradec, zharnec, divjake, voskopoje, vetipoje, korçe, etc. into albanian territory?

In my opinion there are quite a lot of unexplainable things, that could be explained just by an origin far far norther.
You were telling me about labial or laringeal sounds I don't remember well and that how in romanian this occure while in albanian not.

Then the quazi complete lack of albanian typical name, no seriously, except from the stolen illyrian names from the tombs founded during the communist regime we only have religious names or instead latin or greeks, but not albanians, same thing for romanians, we have just ( i come from the south so i am gonna tell you the christian ones i know) Kozma, jorgji, anastas, artur, eduart, petro, nikolla, mateo, dhimitër, kristaiq, kristjan, kosta, aleksander, etc.

Romanians are in a similar situation.

So this is a common feature of both albanians and romanians, at least in archaic times albanians and romanians got deep into christianization at the point that used only religious names and not anymore the original ones.

Still there is a linguologist that aldo is anti-serbian did an article called: slavic language?A baltized albanian.

He showes how we share grammatical features with balts but even more with slavs i will post the article soon.

There to many things unexplainable with albanians being epirotes and to many proofs that push the attention elsewhere, like albanian tombs? Albanian ancient alphabet?
And still if epirotes would survice they would speak a semi or totally hellenized language, they were really filo greeks, they wanted at any cost to become greeks, they had greek habits and uses, they prayed greek gods in greek temples, i wouldn't think after all that of epirric would remain something after hellenization + latinization.

While albania with no greek influence + being quazi totally latinized couldn't develop in nowadays albania.

What about this? What if albanians were sarmatians, Just sugestions, romans got till crimea maybe in the border with dacia there were even some sarmatians reconductible to albanians, i think we should study even them, but one thing is clear, albanian was satem, that's the point in my opinion.

 

[Gannicus]

Copy paste this on your ip searching

 

[Gannicus]

Lithuanus.org

Sorry but from telephone i can't copy paste the link i am gonna do it this evening on pc.

 

[Johane Derite]

Then the quazi complete lack of albanian typical name, no seriously, except from the stolen illyrian names from the tombs founded during the communist regime we only have religious names or instead latin or greeks, but not albanians, same thing for romanians, we have just ( i come from the south so i am gonna tell you the christian ones i know) Kozma, jorgji, anastas, artur, eduart, petro, nikolla, mateo, dhimitër, kristaiq, kristjan, kosta, aleksander, etc.

we wouldn't be typically shepherds

we would ve coastal people too so why don't we have authoctonous indigenous terms about sea?

First of all if we albanians were epirotes we would only have R1B+J2B while E wouldn't be so typical.

Then we albanians as I said by an historical point of view would simply be all latinized + woulde compromized by a strong influence of greek, but in albanian is quazi absent.

there is a linguologist that aldo is anti-serbian did an article called

Then if we were there before why we don't have typical toponysms or at least we have some really limited in numbers just for rural villages? If we were there how is it possible that slavic tribes nowadays extinguished had their own villages such as poloska, pogradec, zharnec, divjake, voskopoje, vetipoje, korçe, etc. into albanian territory?

You really think your fooling anyone? Maybe some newbie on the forum that doesn't know anything about the balkans. But you are so obviously a fake account its almost funny if it weren't tragic and evil.

Not only do you list one after the other complete fabrications (like no indigenous words for the sea, no words for lowlands, horse, etc) but you also just list complete made up garbage about your
"theories" about haplogroups that don't corroborate at all with the haplogroups that have been found in "illyrian" territories. Autosomally also Albanians don't plot next to romanians, they plot in between
greeks, tuscans/bergamo and bulgarians which geographically corroborates with what you would expect of "illyrian" descendants.

Seriously I don't get it what type of issues a person must have to do things like this.

 

[Sile]

Aldo your theory by a linguistic point of view could seem very reasonable, it isn't by a logical and historical about albanian habits.
First of all if we albanians were epirotes we would only have R1B+J2B while E wouldn't be so typical.
Then we wouldn't be typically shepherds but would me more farmers and would have our lowland terms instead of importing them, then we would ve coastal people too so why don't we have authoctonous indigenous terms about sea?
Then we albanians as I said by an historical point of view would simply be all latinized + woulde compromized by a strong influence of greek, but in albanian is quazi absent.
Then if we were there before why we don't have typical toponysms or at least we have some really limited in numbers just for rural villages? If we were there how is it possible that slavic tribes nowadays extinguished had their own villages such as poloska, pogradec, zharnec, divjake, voskopoje, vetipoje, korçe, etc. into albanian territory?
In my opinion there are quite a lot of unexplainable things, that could be explained just by an origin far far norther.
You were telling me about labial or laringeal sounds I don't remember well and that how in romanian this occure while in albanian not.
Then the quazi complete lack of albanian typical name, no seriously, except from the stolen illyrian names from the tombs founded during the communist regime we only have religious names or instead latin or greeks, but not albanians, same thing for romanians, we have just ( i come from the south so i am gonna tell you the christian ones i know) Kozma, jorgji, anastas, artur, eduart, petro, nikolla, mateo, dhimitër, kristaiq, kristjan, kosta, aleksander, etc.
Romanians are in a similar situation.
So this is a common feature of both albanians and romanians, at least in archaic times albanians and romanians got deep into christianization at the point that used only religious names and not anymore the original ones.
Still there is a linguologist that aldo is anti-serbian did an article called: slavic language?A baltized albanian.
He showes how we share grammatical features with balts but even more with slavs i will post the article soon.
There to many things unexplainable with albanians being epirotes and to many proofs that push the attention elsewhere, like albanian tombs? Albanian ancient alphabet?
And still if epirotes would survice they would speak a semi or totally hellenized language, they were really filo greeks, they wanted at any cost to become greeks, they had greek habits and uses, they prayed greek gods in greek temples, i wouldn't think after all that of epirric would remain something after hellenization + latinization.
While albania with no greek influence + being quazi totally latinized couldn't develop in nowadays albania.
What about this? What if albanians were sarmatians, Just sugestions, romans got till crimea maybe in the border with dacia there were even some sarmatians reconductible to albanians, i think we should study even them, but one thing is clear, albanian was satem, that's the point in my opinion.

The link of Albanian with Romanian can never be resolved because no one knows what the dacians spoke before changing to Latin ..........since they are a branch of Thracian, then my guess would be a thracian dialect/sub language
Pyrrhus was a Greek general and statesman of the Hellenistic period. He was king of the Greek tribe of Molossians, of the royal Aeacid house, and later he became king of Epirus. Molossians one of the 14 Epirote tribes.............clearly , if some albanians, link albanians with phyrrus then one needs to check this out completely.
E-V13 haplogroup trail is kosovo, albania, thessally, western Anatolia, Cyprus ........then the genetic paper seems to same northern levant

Haplogroup E-M78 is particularly high among Greeks (as well as Albanians) and Cypriot E-M78 belongs predominantly to subclade E-V13

read this paper
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0179474

 

[Gannicus]

What someone here doesn't understand, referring to dear johane, is that when i speak about haplogroups i start on how they originally they came together, after this I say that because E,J and R people when they met for the first time didn't have the same lifestyle, meaning farmer/hunter-gatherer/nomadic pastor/etc., so i was supposing in relation to what we know about ancient people's habits is that seeing for example the greeks or the thracians or who ever it is, what habits, life style, etc... had, how this people developed by behavior, by traditions, taking all this info about what we know of these people's and what we know about albanians, that's it, if albanians typically were shepherds instead of being farmers, i would search albanian origin among recorded people's who were traditionally shepherds, i would study their language, traditions, culture and probably find a link, and then what did i do to provoke your hate majesty? Did I contested your theories, no wait, your scientific rules?? I am not that much of an expert but with what i know about history i tried to create a logical continuity about the argument.
Did I said "E" is not albanian or european?? no, I said that E people in origin had a differnt life style than Jand even than R peoples.
Said anything provocative, or Hoxhaist? No.
Better then always take the Illyrian theory as a rule or even the epirote one, and I never said they are debunked, I proposed my ogical one, if u get mad at me so fast I don't know what u would do seeing the fairytales written on pan-slavic forums about I2 that came into Balkans 50000 years ago, HAHAHAHAHAHHHAAHAHHAHAAA, LoL.
And still I don't se the provocative part in here, but ok if u are so close minded to always want to here what u like and not stuff wrote by other people it's ok.

For example explain me how is it possible that albanians, supposed that it was born in modern day albania, wasn't latinized complitely, in the balkans one of the first part to be conquered by romans was actually epirus, after illyria, so how did it survive then? Then i would like from u a list of albanian typical toponysms of cities and names of people of albanian origin, the only reason why I supposed that albanians could be dacian was that basing my knowledge of albanian on me being a native speaker and on the studies of Georgiev and Vladimir Orel, i read that albanian in their opinion developed in eastern serbia (Morava valley) and they had and still have pretty damn good arguments to state that, so this could explain geographically and historically why in albania there are settlements of any kind of name, slavic, greek, even roman, etc.
By a linguistic point of view I am not n expert but we can agree that albanian has nothing but little greek influence, if albanian was in modern day epirus, even in Illyria, it would have havier greek influence, but it doesn't, so following logic, just by logic, did I say anything wrong??

 

[LABERIA]

What someone here doesn't understand, referring to dear johane, is that when i speak about haplogroups i start on how they originally they came together, after this I say that because E,J and R people when they met for the first time didn't have the same lifestyle, meaning farmer/hunter-gatherer/nomadic pastor/etc., so i was supposing in relation to what we know about ancient people's habits is that seeing for example the greeks or the thracians or who ever it is, what habits, life style, etc... had, how this people developed by behavior, by traditions, taking all this info about what we know of these people's and what we know about albanians, that's it, if albanians typically were shepherds instead of being farmers, i would search albanian origin among recorded people's who were traditionally shepherds, i would study their language, traditions, culture and probably find a link, and then what did i do to provoke your hate majesty? Did I contested your theories, no wait, your scientific rules?? I am not that much of an expert but with what i know about history i tried to create a logical continuity about the argument.
Did I said "E" is not albanian or european?? no, I said that E people in origin had a differnt life style than Jand even than R peoples.
Said anything provocative, or Hoxhaist? No.
Better then always take the Illyrian theory as a rule or even the epirote one, and I never said they are debunked, I proposed my ogical one, if u get mad at me so fast I don't know what u would do seeing the fairytales written on pan-slavic forums about I2 that came into Balkans 50000 years ago, HAHAHAHAHAHHHAAHAHHAHAAA, LoL.
And still I don't se the provocative part in here, but ok if u are so close minded to always want to here what u like and not stuff wrote by other people it's ok.

For example explain me how is it possible that albanians, supposed that it was born in modern day albania, wasn't latinized complitely, in the balkans one of the first part to be conquered by romans was actually epirus, after illyria, so how did it survive then? Then i would like from u a list of albanian typical toponysms of cities and names of people of albanian origin, the only reason why I supposed that albanians could be dacian was that basing my knowledge of albanian on me being a native speaker and on the studies of Georgiev and Vladimir Orel, i read that albanian in their opinion developed in eastern serbia (Morava valley) and they had and still have pretty damn good arguments to state that, so this could explain geographically and historically why in albania there are settlements of any kind of name, slavic, greek, even roman, etc.
By a linguistic point of view I am not n expert but we can agree that albanian has nothing but little greek influence, if albanian was in modern day epirus, even in Illyria, it would have havier greek influence, but it doesn't, so following logic, just by logic, did I say anything wrong??

You said a lot of crap here, but please share some bibliography with us if this is possible.

 

[Gannicus]

And still one thing that we can state in general is that today's nations have the languages of the last settlers in balkans + eastern europe, so if albanians have such a high diversity by genetic terms by logic there were different peoples that met in the region, the most dominant ones, albanians, imposed language and culture on the other ones, that's the point.

Still about E,J and R i wouldn't be so sure of the fact that proto albanians and albanian language carriers were born with this admixture already, albanian language was born long before this admixture, this happened Rvcarier proto-albanians, the balkans were with anatolia just a crafting table of differnet peoples, here thousands of years ago E and J mixed and were absorbed by R carrier albanians, but original proto albaniansa were R, like all the other I.E. people, you can't argue on that, even slavs, gerans etc. mixed a lot for this today some slavs are mostly carriers of I and so even germanic peoples, this means that a lot, if not majority of slavs were non indo-europan peoples arrier of I that were absorbed by R people, that's the point.