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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #451
    Regular Member Johane Derite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    Yes, the author contends that based on the linguistic evidence that both a Thracian and an Illyrian origin for Albanian can be excluded. He notes that there exist similarities with Messapic, another old Balkan language that was spoken in southern Italy at one point.

    Interesting since messapian is considered an Illyrian language by many. What does he consider it if not an Illyrian language?



    And if they took DNA evidence into consideration (the Auplia region of italy has more similar haplogroups with Albanians) then it would would make things clearer (pic below).

    Here I've marked in red the main 3 albanian haplogroups.

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    This is the paper: http://www.albanologie.uni-muenchen....thnogenese.pdf

    Not sure if the google translator can make sense of it. If you're interested I'll translate the conclusions that summarize his points.
    I am interested, it will be very helpful and i really appreciate your readiness. Thanks in advance.

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I am interested, it will be very helpful and i really appreciate your readiness. Thanks in advance.
    To bad that I do not know any German.


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  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I am interested, it will be very helpful and i really appreciate your readiness. Thanks in advance.
    I share the same sentiment here, would be greatly appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Interesting since messapian is considered an Illyrian language by many. What does he consider it if not an Illyrian language?



    And if they took DNA evidence into consideration (the Auplia region of italy has more similar haplogroups with Albanians) then it would would make things clearer (pic below).

    Here I've marked in red the main 3 albanian haplogroups.

    The evidence is scarce, but Matzinger brings up the possibility of a Paleo-Balkanic macrogroup that includes Illyrian, Phrygian, Greek & Messapian and, of course, modern Albanian. Within this family Albanian seems to be closest to Messapian, but there is too little evidence to say that there's a direct descent. He places the homeland of the proto-Albanians in Moesia Superior & Dardania (so southern Serbia and Kosovo) due to the relative lack of early Greek influence in Albanian, which was strong in the regions of present day Bosnia, Dalmatia.

    For the southern expansion Matzinger proposes a date after Christianisation & increasing Roman influence. The early Christian Albanians had a pastoral economy and ousted the pagan, agricultural Slavs whom they encountered in the coastal regions. This is reminds me of what Matasovic said about the interaction between Albanian & Slavic - Albanian borrowed words pertaining to industry and agriculture from Slavic, while Slavic borrowed words pertaining martial values and family relations from Albanian.

    Edit: I'll translate the conclusion of the paper later this evening.

  6. #456
    Regular Member Johane Derite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    The evidence is scarce, but Matzinger brings up the possibility of a Paleo-Balkanic macrogroup that includes Illyrian, Phrygian, Greek & Messapian and, of course, modern Albanian. Within this family Albanian seems to be closest to Messapian, but there is too little evidence to say that there's a direct descent. He places the homeland of the proto-Albanians in Moesia Superior & Dardania (so southern Serbia and Kosovo) due to the relative lack of early Greek influence in Albanian, which was strong in the regions of present day Bosnia, Dalmatia.

    For the southern expansion Matzinger proposes a date after Christianisation & increasing Roman influence. The early Christian Albanians had a pastoral economy and ousted the pagan, agricultural Slavs whom they encountered in the coastal regions. This is reminds me of what Matasovic said about the interaction between Albanian & Slavic - Albanian borrowed words pertaining to industry and agriculture from Slavic, while Slavic borrowed words pertaining martial values and family relations from Albanian.

    Edit: I'll translate the conclusion of the paper later this evening.

    Thanks for this @markozd

    The way this paper was presented in the media and used by certain nationalists totally doesn't represent what the authors seem to actually be arguing for.

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    check the albanian numbers in the link for each haplogroup....how do they compare with the above post#451 ?

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008249/figures/2
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    check the albanian numbers in the link for each haplogroup....how do they compare with the above post#451 ?

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008249/figures/2
    Thanks for this. I underlined the 3 biggest Albanian haplogroups. EV13 and J2b2-m241 are highest
    among Albanians. Both these peak in Apulia (with the exception of a high J2b2-m241 in Tortona-Voghera) also.






  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Thanks for this @markozd

    The way this paper was presented in the media and used by certain nationalists totally doesn't represent what the authors seem to actually be arguing for.
    This paper was a strong argument that Albanians came from Crapi.....it seems that is far from that.


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  10. #460
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    Ok guys, i have one thing to notice to you, I1 haplogroup.
    For long time, even now it is still considered of gothic origin, but in my opinion it
    can't just pass like this, for example: when E people came in the balkans in 20000 BC
    what did they found? Nothing? It's inpossible in my opinion, they probably
    found someone, and who they found would be the people who came in the european sub-
    continent even before, the I people, now i would like precise that in all of this
    what i am saying has nothing to do with the slavic claims about I2b
    being the earliest in the balkan and how even jesus christ was
    Serb and probably I2b.
    What i am talking about is that when E people, proto ghegs or dardanians, came in
    the Balkans they founded this I1 people, they absorbed them, and gave them
    culture and language, so originally ghegs were E who assimilated I1 people

    Now, about today: how is it possible then that I1-is so low, this could be explained
    By E people, how? Just looking at the E albanian's subclades, we well know that aldo
    There are quite a big amount of E subclades in the balkans
    The most dominant among albanians, meaning almost the totality of E albanians have the
    V-13 subclade, this could be explained this way: during the fall of the roman empire the
    last gegs were enclosed in a small area of kosovo or northern albania, the other werw latinized
    so they even lost traditons and combat abilities, that were conserved by these last gegs in the
    mountains, who then expanded and took back quite fastly the equivalent of kosovo, montenegro and
    north albania.
    So what about I1 in all of this majority of the I1 people in kosovo and north albania were assimilated
    in the way that their women were married by E-V13 albanians, this + the bottle nwck effect would push I1
    near extintion, aldo autosomaly this thing would mak us score as northern europeans and you
    have all the proofs to proove me wrong, there are some things that can't be just
    coincidences:
    1) if I1-is of gothic origin typically and logically we would have just one subclade of I1 but
    we have 3.
    2) some guys have done a haplogroup classifiation of northern albanians have shown up
    by tests on the albanian "fis" from kosovo to montenegro to north albania that except from Ev-13,
    J2b and R1b there has been found even clans with I1, ctually four clans if i remember well.
    3) a study made by some albanian genetists has shown that we have a common genetic trait or something
    like that ( soon i will post the source ) with scandinavians, this could be explaine by the assimilation
    of I1 people by proto geg E people in paleolitic times.
    And the I1 is mostly a feature of gegs rather yhen tosks.

    At the end, of course one of these three subclades of I1
    is of goyhic origin but the other two have of course to do
    with my suggestions.

    Have a nice day.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Generally speaking, Albanians predominately have predominantly Greek DNA in the south (Epirus) and predominantly Balkan (south Slav) in the north.

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balkan1992 View Post
    Generally speaking, Albanians predominately have predominantly Greek DNA in the south (Epirus) and predominantly Balkan (south Slav) in the north.
    False. Stop spreading lies

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    Sure, and the Italian influence too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    False. Stop spreading lies
    Just ignore him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balkan1992 View Post
    Generally speaking, Albanians predominately have predominantly Greek DNA in the south (Epirus) and predominantly Balkan (south Slav) in the north.
    Funny how its actually the other way around and it isn't even proven that it's actually Slavic all of it.

  16. #466
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    Exaxtly Zanatis,i am bored about hearing how we tosks are slavic incests and northern are turkish or egyptians,
    simply the difference persists because originally we were different peoples, tosks proto-indoeuropean albanians
    while gegs proto balkanic, probably related to pre greek peoples, maybe doric, but guys about I2 look how many subclades
    we tosks have, saying they are all slavic in my opinion is kind of propagandist, guess what: the highest slavic carriers of
    I2 are serbians, croatians and bosnjaks, nothing more distant from tosks, between tosks and this block of slavs there
    is gegs, so the only slavs that could some how influence toks are to be seen in bulgarians/makedonians
    who i remember you are some of the highest carriers of R1a in the balkans, so if we have to state which are the
    slavic influences in tosks of course we have to point R1a, and not all of his subclades, not I2.
    Then if you take the results of haplogroups of only tosks you will see that R1b and I2 score almot the same, so i suggest
    That original proto-tosks/albanians came from eastern eurpe instead from anatolia, like ghegs did, this would
    explain the R1b-L51 same as armenians and one ore more subclades of I2, so when proto tosks came in modern day
    south albania(Laberia,myzeqieja,etc.) They of course encountered balkan natives:E-V13 and J2b.
    Now as i suggested in te prvious post about the proto balkanic component i would like to see if
    I1 had any role.

  17. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    The evidence is scarce, but Matzinger brings up the possibility of a Paleo-Balkanic macrogroup that includes Illyrian, Phrygian, Greek & Messapian and, of course, modern Albanian. Within this family Albanian seems to be closest to Messapian, but there is too little evidence to say that there's a direct descent. He places the homeland of the proto-Albanians in Moesia Superior & Dardania (so southern Serbia and Kosovo) due to the relative lack of early Greek influence in Albanian, which was strong in the regions of present day Bosnia, Dalmatia.

    For the southern expansion Matzinger proposes a date after Christianisation & increasing Roman influence. The early Christian Albanians had a pastoral economy and ousted the pagan, agricultural Slavs whom they encountered in the coastal regions. This is reminds me of what Matasovic said about the interaction between Albanian & Slavic - Albanian borrowed words pertaining to industry and agriculture from Slavic, while Slavic borrowed words pertaining martial values and family relations from Albanian.

    Edit: I'll translate the conclusion of the paper later this evening.
    Very interesting. Is this the same linguist along with another from Austria who suggested Albanians descended from a paleo-balkan people but related to and not descended from the more known categories illustrated above?

  18. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balkan1992 View Post
    Generally speaking, Albanians predominately have predominantly Greek DNA in the south (Epirus) and predominantly Balkan (south Slav) in the north.
    Lies. South Slavs didn't have Balkan DNA before assimilating natives. Albanians are likely paleo-balkan natives. Leave your conjecture at the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Exaxtly Zanatis,i am bored about hearing how we tosks are slavic incests and northern are turkish or egyptians,
    simply the difference persists because originally we were different peoples, tosks proto-indoeuropean albanians
    while gegs proto balkanic, probably related to pre greek peoples, maybe doric, but guys about I2 look how many subclades
    we tosks have, saying they are all slavic in my opinion is kind of propagandist, guess what: the highest slavic carriers of
    I2 are serbians, croatians and bosnjaks, nothing more distant from tosks, between tosks and this block of slavs there
    is gegs, so the only slavs that could some how influence toks are to be seen in bulgarians/makedonians
    who i remember you are some of the highest carriers of R1a in the balkans, so if we have to state which are the
    slavic influences in tosks of course we have to point R1a, and not all of his subclades, not I2.
    Then if you take the results of haplogroups of only tosks you will see that R1b and I2 score almot the same, so i suggest
    That original proto-tosks/albanians came from eastern eurpe instead from anatolia, like ghegs did, this would
    explain the R1b-L51 same as armenians and one ore more subclades of I2, so when proto tosks came in modern day
    south albania(Laberia,myzeqieja,etc.) They of course encountered balkan natives:E-V13 and J2b.
    Now as i suggested in te prvious post about the proto balkanic component i would like to see if
    I1 had any role.

    Here's a fun fact:

    There is a I2-Din branch, pre-dating the branches common in Southern Slavs. It is so far(per BigY tests) only found in Greeks and Jews. Its TMRCA is 200BC roughly. Which could mean it arrived with some atypical line of either a Goth or Bastarnae that arrived as Vlachs.

    So far no Southern Slavs belong to this minor older cluster under I2-Din. Also Albanians have some I2a2a-Balkan as well. Albanians are extremely under-tested. For all we know a good amount of Albanian I2-Din in the South belongs to this older Greek Cluster:


  20. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Here's a fun fact:

    There is a I2-Din branch, pre-dating the branches common in Southern Slavs. It is so far(per BigY tests) only found in Greeks and Jews. Its TMRCA is 200BC roughly. Which could mean it arrived with some atypical line of either a Goth or Bastarnae that arrived as Vlachs.

    So far no Southern Slavs belong to this minor older cluster under I2-Din. Also Albanians have some I2a2a-Balkan as well. Albanians are extremely under-tested. For all we know a good amount of Albanian I2-Din in the South belongs to this older Greek Cluster:

    Realy appritiated your intevention, but could it fit with toks? Meaning could tosks be R1b-L51 + I2(one of its subclades)
    Because what we can clearly see is that we tosks are the indo european component who came in the neolithic who borught
    Indo european languge and genes(partially), so what now i am suggesting is that proto-tosks were R1b+I2.
    Then what about gegs, what subclade of I haplogroup do you think could of be jutified as paleo-balkanic in them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Realy appritiated your intevention, but could it fit with toks? Meaning could tosks be R1b-L51 + I2(one of its subclades)
    Because what we can clearly see is that we tosks are the indo european component who came in the neolithic who borught
    Indo european languge and genes(partially), so what now i am suggesting is that proto-tosks were R1b+I2.
    Then what about gegs, what subclade of I haplogroup do you think could of be jutified as paleo-balkanic in them?

    I am not sure what came from where. Most linguistics research seems to suggest Albanians ancestors coming from Moesia Superior. Basically Kosova and Serbia, and then theoretically were pushed southwards in the early middle ages. They cite the lack of maritime vocabulary as one of the possibilities since we do not have our own words in this regard, but borrowed.

    The cluster is not specifically Greek. It seems that way at the present. For all we know Southern Albanians belong to this branch and maybe some Arvanites carried it south?

    For instance I am probably part of a Germanized Slavic native that arrived as Goth. Considering at present my clade predates the migration and formed a founder effect within Albanians.

    Something similar with this I2 cluster could have happened with Greeks and Jews. Maybe Southern Albanian I2-Din belongs in part to it? I did read the Baiounitai(a Slavic tribe mixed with Vlachs and some Goths) settled in central and southern Albania for a time. They could have been assimilated into Byzantium and then re-assimilated into Albanians, creating that North/South, Gheg/Tosk cline. We would need more bigy samples to know for sure.

    As far as I can tell there are not any I2-Din samples for Albanians on Yfull. If any in the Albanian bloodlines project with ancestry from the south that are confirmed I2-Din are willing to test further, I would definitely donate what I can towards that end.

    There seems to be some middle ages records suggesting Jews had a large presence in the south at one time. Considering only Jews and Greeks belong to this cluster at present; it could have arrived with Arvanite settlers. To be sure we would need more I2-Din Albanians to take a bigy or fullgenomes to put the possibility to the test.

    For example, a Greek user Leandros belongs to a typically South Slavic branch of I2-Din(not the cluster that seems specific to Greeks and Jews). So we would need to have more Albanians doing big why to see what percentage would correlate to this cluster and the predominant South Slavic clusters.

    One thing is certain. Outside of Albania(as it remains under-tested), most all I2-Din are all part of very young clades between 1500-900ypb, which all seem to correlate with the Slavic migration and specific branches. PH908 for instance is one of the predominant branches among South Slavs(Bosnians and Serbs) which has a TMRCA of 1500ypb. However, most of them belong to further downstream clades which are only between 900-1100ypb.

    The only basal CTS10228* sample seems to occur in France per yfull.

    If any Albanians belong to the "Greek" I2-Din cluster above, they could be the result of Arvanites, Greeks, Vlach or perhaps assimilated Jews prior to our expansion. Time will tell as the data grows. It was only a year ago that it was suggested Mycenaean were R1a, until remains proved that J2a seems to have been predominant. There is some theory that I2a2a was in the Balkans for very long. I2a1b-Din however has its most recent ancestor in North Europe around Poland. Most I2-Din only arrived in the early middle ages.

    It is unlikely that it was paleo-balkan. However if some basal I2a1* starts popping up, perhaps we can hypothesize that it would in that case. At present however, all of it(with exception of the cluster dating to 200BC) seems to have arrived with the Slavic migrations, as the branches are young.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Here's a fun fact:

    There is a I2-Din branch, pre-dating the branches common in Southern Slavs. It is so far(per BigY tests) only found in Greeks and Jews. Its TMRCA is 200BC roughly. Which could mean it arrived with some atypical line of either a Goth or Bastarnae that arrived as Vlachs.

    So far no Southern Slavs belong to this minor older cluster under I2-Din. Also Albanians have some I2a2a-Balkan as well. Albanians are extremely under-tested. For all we know a good amount of Albanian I2-Din in the South belongs to this older Greek Cluster:

    Doesn't seem to be the case, I2-CTS10228 found among seems pretty divers. Which points out to different slavic communities being absorbed independently across all regions. Not a founder effect.
    Last edited by Leka; 13-05-18 at 06:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Doesn't seem to be the case, I2-CTS10228 found among seems pretty divers. Which points out to different slavic communities being absorb independently across all regions. Not a founder effect.

    Didn't say that it wasn't a common Slavic ancestor in the Proto-Slavic area. However, given the age of the branch, and the fact it only has Greeks and East-European Jews, I hypothesized a possibility that it came with a earlier assimilated Proto-Slav native moving with Goths and or Bastarnae. Bastarnae were not uniform. Their very name suggests they were mixed tribal confederation.

    My branch for instance is a "Albanian" founder effect, where only me and another Albanian belong to, a yet undefined subclade stemming from L1029-B-Western which is most common in Germany and Poland. It diverged much earlier however, and likely was a Germanized Proto-Slav that arrived as a Goth. Theres alot of atypical cases. This I2-Cluster(while not a founder effect) could have been one such case of absorption. I guess the future will tell. If the cluster keeps growing with Greek samples and no South Slavs, then it could very well be due to earlier movements absorbed before the migration.

    TMRCA of that branch is 200BC and no South-Slavs belong to at as of yet.

    I-A2512 split from I-Y3120 2300ypb(300BC). Whilst I-Z17855 diverged from I-Y3120 as well, the South Slavic samples that make up that cluster have a TMRCA between 400-500AD. I-A2512 cluster has a TMRCA dating to 200BC and only has Greek and East-European Jews as mentioned. Its closest cluster I-Y4460 which also split from I-Y3120 has a TMRCA of 200BC as well, and so far has a Ukrainian Swedish sample, and Belarussian.

    Most South Slavic I2-Din is all young, Serbs and Bosnian belong in large part to clusters under PH908 that have far younger clades.

    If this cluster of I2-Din that dates to 200 BC moved with the Sklavenoi, then where are the South Slavic samples? Also, what Sklavenoi do you know moved earlier than the 5th-7th century? Even if they moved a few hundred years after the TMRCA, its still 400 years earlier than their first arrival. Couple this with Michals TMRCA methods which potentially place the age of clades back 150-300 years and you have a bigger issue of explaining this disparity.

    I suggest we wait for more data to pile up. If the cluster is a rare case of earlier movements it shouldnt have any South-Slavic samples, and so far it doesn't.

  24. #474
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    The problem here is Dibran that the Jews belonging to this subcluster seem to be Ashkenazis from Eastern Europe. That should clear any doubts you had regarding its origin and time of expansion to my opinion. That those Greeks are upstream of those samples doesn’t mean much, honestly. This specific subclade seems like is a minor lineage, anyway.

  25. #475
    Regular Member Gannicus's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    The problem here is Dibran that the Jews belonging to this subcluster seem to be Ashkenazis from Eastern Europe. That should clear any doubts you had regarding its origin and time of expansion to my opinion. That those Greeks are upstream of those samples doesn’t mean much, honestly. This specific subclade seems like is a minor lineage, anyway.
    No ok, if your doubt is this i have to crack it down right now, there were no jews as far as germany or poland before christianiy, around the year 1000 as i remember the spanish started persecuting jews, then other countries did so, but in german principlities and in poland thy openly accepted them, knowing their ability to do money and economic exchanges, ashkenazi were born, but we are speaking of a quite recent phenomenom.

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