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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Anyway, i have to admit that from Caucasus Albania to 'relative autochthony' is a Great Leap Forward. Let's see where will end this charade.
    That's just transparent well-poisoning.

    There was one 19th Arberesh writer who actually agreed with the Caucasus theory too apparently, and that makes perfect sense in the early linguistic and ethnographic climate where pretty much any theory you can think of was made up (its long-term apparent abuse by some Serb writers notwithstanding). An equally important stream, actually more so, that you conveniently ignore here would be all those theories of common ancient "Pelasgian" descent, often equally ridiculous.

    No actual linguists (or recent historians) took/take seriously a connection of Albanian to the Caucasus rather than the ancient Balkans but it's also very clear that the specifics of the latter question have been far from settled and the potential advance will come via aDNA.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    Whatever disagreements there are, and it isn't like Matzinger's theory is the be-all end-all of things, it's clear that he is a serious contemporary scholar. I'm sure no one can fully "objectively evaluate" the evidence when it comes to such contentious issues (and I mean that in the sense of the evidence pointing either way).



    I'm sure linguists can tell the difference between cognates and loanwords, this specific point seems to be one that virtually all linguists I've come across seem to agree with (though most likely via secondary means).



    Though this particular point isn't about the existence of Latin in other Balkan languages on its own, but the relative ratio of Latin/Greek. But in general, that's not the only piece of evidence Matzinger thinks exists for the conclusion that proto-Albanian was spoken overall somewhat to the northeast of the current territory since you read the paper.



    I wouldn't say it's understated. The potential specifically West Greek words are very few as far as I know and some are uncertain whether specifically from that kind of dialect.



    Actually if I understood him correctly Matzinger seems to make that point that the pre-Romance language of the ancestors of the Romanians (i.e. around Moesia) might even have been related to proto-Albanian so the common words might be explained that way.



    Indeed, so the diocese of Dacia minus Praevelitana.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    He literally starts off the Albanian text by saying "the illyrian-albanian hypothesis is a cliche enjoyed.."

    And then he makes snide jabs at Cabej and the overall tone of it all is just very transparent. Far from a neutral analysis of the facts.

    DNA evidence doesn't corroborate what he theorizes anyway, so thats that.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    He literally starts off the Albanian text by saying "the illyrian-albanian hypothesis is a cliche enjoyed.."

    And then he makes snide jabs at Cabej and the overall tone of it all is just very transparent. Far from a neutral analysis of the facts.

    DNA evidence doesn't corroborate what he theorizes anyway, so thats that.
    It's fine to be annoyed at the usual cliches that introduce Balkan articles and focus on local nationalisms but I don't see how it discredits his general points. It's true that there's debate about these points and some others do end up agreeing with a position like Matzinger's (Orel comes to mind from recent ones).

    The ancient DNA evidence is pretty slim right now to be able to easily tell what's going on. The ancient Y-DNA we have from the Balkans is extremely minimal (the only thing I'd say is that every important current clade except the two Slavic-associated suspects seems to broadly show up, but we don't know to what extent in what areas) and autosomally you have an overall very clinal population from the Peloponnese to Pannonia based on what's been published so far. In a few years this will likely change but right now most of the Balkans, including the whole of Albania which probably won't show any major suprises autosomally, are terra incognita.

  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    That's just transparent well-poisoning.

    There was one 19th Arberesh writer who actually agreed with the Caucasus theory too apparently, and that makes perfect sense in the early linguistic and ethnographic climate where pretty much any theory you can think of was made up (its long-term apparent abuse by some Serb writers notwithstanding). An equally important stream, actually more so, that you conveniently ignore here would be all those theories of common ancient "Pelasgian" descent, often equally ridiculous.

    No actual linguists (or recent historians) took/take seriously a connection of Albanian to the Caucasus rather than the ancient Balkans but it's also very clear that the specifics of the latter question have been far from settled and the potential advance will come via aDNA.
    I can write an long answer to your post, but my interest was and is this medieval migration of Albanians, not Caucasus Albania.

  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    It's fine to be annoyed at the usual cliches that introduce Balkan articles and focus on local nationalisms but I don't see how it discredits his general points. It's true that there's debate about these points and some others do end up agreeing with a position like Matzinger's (Orel comes to mind from recent ones).

    The ancient DNA evidence is pretty slim right now to be able to easily tell what's going on. The ancient Y-DNA we have from the Balkans is extremely minimal (the only thing I'd say is that every important current clade except the two Slavic-associated suspects seems to broadly show up, but we don't know to what extent in what areas) and autosomally you have an overall very clinal population from the Peloponnese to Pannonia based on what's been published so far.
    No, its not fine to have a scientific article and present your argument by saying the counter argument (that there is illyrian - albanian language continuity) is a cliche. That's juvenile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    No, its not fine to have a scientific article and present your argument by saying the counter argument (that there is illyrian - albanian language continuity) is a cliche. That's juvenile.
    Yeah sure, I don't disagree that it's annoying especially since most Balkan debates are heated most of the time but his points go well beyond that and about internal Albanian changes, the treatment of toponyms and so on.

    I always took an Illyrian scenario as a sort-of-default position, considering where the Albanians first appear historically, when we're generally agnostic about it but it's also clear that linguists themselves don't fully agree with that, however we weigh their arguments. Luckily another discipline has come along and might provide some indisputable answers either with Y-DNA or high quality autosomal data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    The ancient DNA evidence is pretty slim right now to be able to easily tell what's going on. The ancient Y-DNA we have from the Balkans is extremely minimal (the only thing I'd say is that every important current clade except the two Slavic-associated suspects seems to broadly show up, but we don't know to what extent in what areas) and autosomally you have an overall very clinal population from the Peloponnese to Pannonia based on what's been published so far. In a few years this will likely change but right now most of the Balkans, including the whole of Albania which probably won't show any major suprises autosomally, are terra incognita.

    Ah yes, J2b2-L283 the infamous Dacian haplogroup. Dacians were known to be in Croatian coast...


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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    Luckily another discipline has come along and might provide some indisputable answers either with Y-DNA or high quality autosomal data.
    Here I agree with you, thank god

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Ah yes, J2b2-L283 the infamous Dacian haplogroup. Dacians were known to be in Croatian coast...
    I'm sure you know all about the relevant Balkan subclades much better judging by other posts but something like L283 seems pretty widespread, including in areas that don't necessarily seem particularly plausibly derived from the historical West Balkan area. There's another problem with Ghegs expectedly looking particularly conservative in their Y-DNA, and even autosomally, compared to pretty much every other Balkan group - do we know for sure what the ancient distributions were generally like unless something generally looks like a recent invader like most of the R1a subclades? There seem to e.g. be ancient chance BA-IA findings of G in parts of Eastern Europe where today at least it doesn't seem particularly prevalent. That was sort of my point here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    I'm sure you know all about the relevant Balkan subclades much better but something like L283 seems pretty widespread, including in areas that don't necessarily seem particularly plausibly derived from the historical West Balkan area. There's another problem with Ghegs looking particularly conservative in their Y-DNA, and even autosomally, compared to pretty much every other Balkan group - do we know for sure what the ancient distributions were generally like unless something generally looks like a recent invader like most of the R1a subclades? There seem to e.g. be ancient chance BA-IA findings of G in parts of Eastern Europe where today at least it doesn't seem particularly prevalent. That was sort of my point here.
    Yes I agree with you that its still early days to say anything definitive. But nonetheless the unraveling has begun, and I eagerly await it, wherever it will lead us.

    I just want to say that I don't base my leaning toward the Illyrian side only on the last couple of years dna results, but also on anthropological, ethnographic, archaeological and mythological evidence.

    And linguistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Ah yes, J2b2-L283 the infamous Dacian haplogroup. Dacians were known to be in Croatian coast...
    it is part of the cetina culture
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetina_culture
    .
    .
    https://indo-european.eu/2017/12/bel...y-scandinavia/
    .
    https://www.world-archaeology.com/wo...alley-croatia/
    .
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    This sample dates to a time period after Cetina, so it's probably not a Cetina sample but a Proto-Illyrian sample as the timing fits with Illyrians although J2b2-L283 could be linked to Cetina
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    You might want to read the following post from our Serbian friend, Aspurg. He archaeologically identified it as a Proto-Illyrian sample :

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I seem to have made an error earlier while posting here.. Anyway, regarding this Veliki Vanik find, it is archaeologically identifiable:

    Footnote from "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe"
    Radiocarbon dates and preserved artifacts (hair ornament made of coiled copper wire and fragments of pottery) date these burials to the Early/Middle Bronze Age.28


    28
    Mucić, K. & Kovačević Bokarica, N. Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine
    na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja. In: Arheološka istraživanja na trasi
    autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini (ed M Tomasović) 125-212 (Gradski muzej Makarska,
    2011).


    One last year's work:
    Majića gradina (Drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini (new find of Litzen ware in Herzegovina)


    U kulturnom i kronološkom pogledu navedene razlike nisu toliko izražene, barem ne u kontekstu promatrane kulturne regije, gdje često i ne postoji uža distinkcija prema načinu izvođenja ornamenta, nego se konvencionalno takva vrsta nalaza, bilo da su oni ukrašeni otiskivanjem dvonitne uzice ili otkane tkanice/vrpce, često deklarira kao licenska.16


    16 Usp. B. Čović, "Posuška kultura", 70, 75, 77-78, T. VIII, 5, T. X, 5, 4; Marinko Tomasović, "Arheološka topografija lijeve strane donjeg toka Cetine", u: Jacqueline Balen - Hrvoje Potrebica (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja u cetinskoj krajini, Izdanja Hrvatskoga arheološkog društva, vol. 27, Zagreb, 2011., T. I, 5-6; Vedran Katavić - Ana Sunko Katavić - Andrea Devlahović, "Istraživanje grobnog tumula, dviju vrtača, gradine i gradinice u Gornjim Rašćanima kod Vrgorca", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 46, kat. jed. 7; Konstanta Mucić - Nela Kovačević Bokarica, "Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 130, kat. jed. 2; B. Marijanović, nav. dj., str. 105, T. LXXXV, 5; T. LXXXVI, 1,2; Ivan Šuta, "Korištenje vrtača u prapovijesti Dalmacije", u: Tusculum, 6, Solin, 2013., str. 11-12, sl. 6.


    So Litzen ware clearly places Veliki Vanik in the context of what B.Čović called Posušje culture, while Govedarica classified it as Dinara culture. Dinara culture was markedly different in comparison to neighboring Cetina culture, as you know Raf Ceustermans of E-M35 Project already put up a hypothesis of connection between E-V13 and Cetina culture. Tying J-M241 with coexisting neighboring Dinara culture actually adds indirectly additional weight to his hypothesis.
    It must be said that Dinara culture has clear ties to Apennine Peninsula. It's origin can be through some connections be further traced to Ljubljana culture. Ljubljana culture had strong and clear Bell Bekaer element. In it's first phase Vuledol element was present, then at the end of it came the Bell Beaker element, some archaeologists suggested they coexisted and together proceeded to the south, but Slovenian archaeologist Paola Korošec was of the opinion that Bell Beaker element destroyed Vučedol element. W3a is a steppe mtdna, but it was also found in one Bell Beaker sample from Deggendorf, Bavaria. She traced this Bell Beaker element to north Italian Remedello culture. And that brings us to J-M241, as all older clades are found in Italy, I strongly believe J-M241 is this Bell Beaker element. So it was an indoeuropean element coming not from the steppes but from the West. All in all, I believe this J2b2 find explains itself very nicely, the nature of this culture and location of early M241 clades just fit nicely.

    It is without doubt proto-Illyrian, and likely J-M241 might have been the most numerous Illyrian hg. Additionally this sample being J-Y15058* points that even several clades under it that have ties to Eastern Balkans (Bulgarians, Aromanians) ultimately have western origins.

    E-V13 is another theme, but I think Indoeuropean element V13 encountered was markedly different from Bell Beakers. Likely all E-V13's are a "grecoid" population originally, they migrated much more eastwards and southwards, but those clades that stayed of course played their part in ethnogenesis of Illyrians.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    Read some Ducellier, he refers to them. Actually even sources that you yourself have brought (like Giakoumis who almost takes some sort of intermediate stance where Greco-Albanian cohabitation in Epirus -specifically the area of Gjirokaster- is "quite old", while still explicitly referring to later Albanian migrations) refer to those.

    Particularly weird thing to ask after a post that refers to a(n obviously not necessarily correct, an Illyrian connection is obviously plausible too with Albanians being 'native' to Central-North Albania and related contemporary Gheg-speaking territories but Matzinger thinks it doesn't relate to the phonological evidence; ancient DNA data will clarify this likely more than linguistics ever did) theory that doesn't even bring the Albanians in south Albania before late antiquity/medieval times.

    And you're certainly not one to talk about "moral obligations" since our previous interactions have shown me that you're occasionally an outright liar (or just "misunderstand" your own sources). So no need for that sort of talk.
    In the early 1360s, Epirus indeed was divided between Albanian clans: the clan of Peter Iiosha held Arta, the clan of Muriki Boua Spata" held Etoloacarnania, with Angelokastron as capital, and their leaders held the Byzantine titles of Despots from Symeon". Only the city of Ioannina WAS still governed by Greeks". In the north and west of this city, the clans of the Malakasaioi and of the Mazarakaioi held a territory which cannot be precisely defined''. Then, the clan of the Zenebisaioi held the north-west of Ioannina, including Dryinopolis, Bela and Vagenctia".

    Source:
    http://www.cliohworld.net/onlread/5/44.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Conjecture is just that, conjecture. I merely provided a hypothesis given this cluster of I2-Din is not found in SOUTHERN SLAVS, the peoples largely descended from SCLAVENOI. You know, just one branch of the Slavs that moved between the 5th and 7th centuries. Not the Proto-Slavs who could have brought slightly older clusters a century or so earlier under the Goths. Or even as Antes mercenaries to Romans against the Huns some 300 years before the major Slavic migrations....
    That's right. There are no Southern Slavs in A2512 as of yet, or Albanians (though that could change). FTDNA's haplogroup 12a project has lots of participants. Those who haven't taken Big Y tests or SNP tests are placed in groups of confirmed or presumed subclades. I was placed in presumed A2512>A10959 until I tested positive for both clades--one via FTDNA SNP pack and the other through YSEQ.

    We need more tests and data for A2512 to ascertain population movements--whether the A2512 Greeks spread out from Epirus/Albania area, northern Greece or somewhere else. Right now there are few confirmed A2512's among Greeks.

    But, it seems that it really bothers some that some Greeks may have old origins in the Greek world. Some want Greeks to be descended from Slavs or others and not have any ancient Greek connections. If the Bastarnae brought A2512 to the Greco-Roman world, that means the modern Greeks with A2512 have pagan Greek connections. It's way too early to confirm this, but it might be the case.
    Last edited by Ralphie Boy; 23-05-18 at 03:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    I'm sure you know all about the relevant Balkan subclades much better judging by other posts but something like L283 seems pretty widespread, including in areas that don't necessarily seem particularly plausibly derived from the historical West Balkan area. There's another problem with Ghegs expectedly looking particularly conservative in their Y-DNA, and even autosomally, compared to pretty much every other Balkan group - do we know for sure what the ancient distributions were generally like unless something generally looks like a recent invader like most of the R1a subclades? There seem to e.g. be ancient chance BA-IA findings of G in parts of Eastern Europe where today at least it doesn't seem particularly prevalent. That was sort of my point here.
    L283 isn't really "widespread", it's only really found in high percentages in Albanians. The Proto-Illyrian J2b2-L283 is supposedly CTS3617 (based on raw data) which is the brother cade of Z638 which Albanians belong to. The highest distribution in the Balkans for L283 is the west Balkans and L283 in other places could very well be due to migration from the west Balkans.

  17. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    That's right. There are no Southern Slavs in A2512 as of yet, or Albanians (though that could change). FTDNA's haplogroup 12a project has lots of participants. Those who haven't taken Big Y tests or SNP tests are placed in groups of confirmed or presumed subclades. I was placed in presumed A2512>A10959 until I tested positive for both clades--one via FTDNA SNP pack and the other through YSEQ.

    We need more tests and data for A2512 to ascertain population movements--whether the A2512 Greeks spread out from Epirus/Albania area, northern Greece or somewhere else. Right now there are few confirmed A2512's among Greeks.

    But, it seems that it really bothers some that some Greeks may have old origins in the Greek world. Some want Greeks to be descended from Slavs or others and not have any ancient Greek connections. If the Bastarnae brought A2512 to the Greco-Roman world, that means the modern Greeks with A2512 have pagan Greek connections. It's way too early to confirm this, but it might be the case.
    I think(given what data we have right now) that Bastarnae could be the source of that cluster in Greeks. Unless a large swathe of South Slavs show up in it anytime soon, I don't think it moved with the migration event like the rest. I also have a rare cluster. A Albanian founder effect within L1029 under M458. Only me and an Albanian belong to it. My closest TMRCA with everyone else L1029 is 2000-2300ypb. My cluster seems most common in Germany and Poland and Belarus on the South-West end. It could have been a Germanized Proto-Slav that arrived with Goths, considering I am negative for all downstream branches common in the Balkans. In fact, L1029-B-Western only makes up 20 percent of Bulgarian M458, most of which is M458-B-Eastern(YP417 and its downstream clades). As far as the Balkans it is common in Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, and Greece. My Albanian founder effect happened anywhere between 400-800AD(currently testing novels). There is alot of pseudo science in this field so it requires quite a bit of sifting lol.

  18. #718
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    I'm J2b2-L283. I have no idea how it could end up in Denmark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rove View Post
    I'm J2b2-L283. I have no idea how it could end up in Denmark.
    My guess is with the Romans to Central Europe(they had many Balkan soldiers). Then from Germany much later to Denmark maybe. In Scotland it could be from Vikings. There is a large expanse of time that passed between your clade and modern history. I could be very wrong though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rove View Post
    I'm J2b2-L283. I have no idea how it could end up in Denmark.
    J2B2 is all over Europe, why Denmark would be an exception?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rove View Post
    I'm J2b2-L283. I have no idea how it could end up in Denmark.
    Hvad så, sker der gamleee

    These are the main possibilities as to why you have this haplogroup:

    1. You got it from the Bronze age migrants who brought Indo-European languages to Europe. (altså Yamnaya, dem fra dokumentaren "Historien om Danmark" - afsnittet om Bronzealderen)

    2. A balkan soldier(most likely Illyrian, but could also be from any other Indo-European populations of that time really) who was stationed near the Rhine as part of the Roman army. Later leaps/migrations would bring it to Denmark. A good guess as to which migration could have brought it up to Denmark from the Rhineland area would be the influx of German aristocracy into Denmark which has taken place for hundreds of years, and only stopped relatively recently.

    So in other words, either your line arrived pretty late from Germany as an aristocratic German. Or it arrived pretty early from the east, and were among the first to speak the language in bronze age scandinavia which would later diverge into Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.

    Of course there are lots of possibilities, but these two are the most likely in my opinion.

    Do you know which specific subclade you belong to? (If you know something more specific than Z631)

    Anyways you should ask Trojet when he is online, he knows much more about J2b2a-L283 than any of us. If you have tested deep enough, he can probably tell if your line is closer to the Albanian/Illyrian subclades or if it already branched off in the Bronze age. That way we can find out which of the two abovementioned possibilities are most likely in your case.

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    H7

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - ?celt? - tosk - myzeqjar
    Country: Italy



    Guys sorry if i am becoming silly but, when are the medieval samples going to be ready? Thx.

  23. #723
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    27-05-18
    Posts
    1

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I wait the results

    Country: Albania



    My DNA results Albanian gheg from kosovo

    I'm albanian gheg from kosovo, my results it's i'm 100% european.
    Greek 91.8% (Albanian)
    Irish, Scottish, and Welsh 4.2%(Celt)
    Balkan 2.7%(Albanian)
    Ashkenazi Jewish 1.3%(i don't know)
    What you think?

  24. #724
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-03-17
    Posts
    110


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    In the early 1360s, Epirus indeed was divided between Albanian clans: the clan of Peter Iiosha held Arta, the clan of Muriki Boua Spata" held Etoloacarnania, with Angelokastron as capital, and their leaders held the Byzantine titles of Despots from Symeon". Only the city of Ioannina WAS still governed by Greeks". In the north and west of this city, the clans of the Malakasaioi and of the Mazarakaioi held a territory which cannot be precisely defined''. Then, the clan of the Zenebisaioi held the north-west of Ioannina, including Dryinopolis, Bela and Vagenctia".

    Source:
    http://www.cliohworld.net/onlread/5/44.pdf
    Well, the section on the Albanians and their late medieval migrations to Epirus, and further south, from the source you linked seems pretty uncontroversial to me and also seems to agree with what I wrote above. But, per LABERIA's question above, it's clear that there are disagreements from others on the issue in this case.

  25. #725
    Regular Member rove's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Aros
    Posts
    12

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2a1a (J-Z631)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Scandinavian
    Country: Denmark



    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    J2B2 is all over Europe, why Denmark would be an exception?
    While that is true, it's at low percentage numbers, especially in northern europe and scandinavia according to the maps i get from this site.

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