Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

Sile said:
Born Australia

ancient admixture........... 99% european ....1% central asian ( Dahae confederation )......what else you want to know
Click to expand...

Y-DNA and ethnic group will tell us more.


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Zanatis said:
I have to agree with Ownstyler and although we all have opinions, in this regard I know he's right and the reasons Laberia is providing are very weak.
What happened in 1972 was considered a crime by many linguists, scholars, and intellectuals in general, many of them being from South, and the 2 bravest of them all weren't even allowed to participate, them being Gurakuqi and Ndoja. If the others had planned to disagree they could as well have said their final goodbyes to their beloved ones and catch the concentration camp bus, like many did.
Click to expand...
https://sq.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_e_delegatëve_të_Kongresit_të_Drejtshkrimit_të_Gjuhës_Shqipe
This is the complete list of the delegates who participated in the Congress. All our best scholars. Every single city is represented. Also Albanian scholars from Kosova, Macedonia, Montenegro and Arbëreshe.
You are free to provide a list of linguists, scholars and intellectuals who consider the Standard a crime. And don't forget those many from south.
It's disgusting and stupid to even think people had a choice and a big intellectual conversation was help where scholars had the freedom of speech. If you believe so, then you're the grandson of a communist aka compatriot cold blooded killer and disgusting buttlicker.
Click to expand...
I think you are totally wrong in this kind of classification of people. Because personally i am from an anticomunist family, never voted for the left even during this period of political pluralism.
The actual Standardization was done so badly and in a rush that even I can find laughable mistakes and things they missed.
Click to expand...
Again you are completely wrong. It was not made bad and in a rush.
Albania proclaimed the indipendence in 1912. If you follow my suggestion and start to read about other Balkan languages you will see that during and after the liberation, these countries, de facto invented new languages. They had their reasons. We decided for the standardization of the language after 60 years of independence.
 
LABERIA said:
https://sq.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_e_delegatëve_të_Kongresit_të_Drejtshkrimit_të_Gjuhës_Shqipe
This is the complete list of the delegates who participated in the Congress. All our best scholars. Every single city is represented. Also Albanian scholars from Kosova, Macedonia, Montenegro and Arbëreshe.

They had their reasons. We decided for the standardization of the language after 60 years of independence.
Click to expand...

Martin Camaj, Lasgush Poradeci, Ernest Koliqi, Arshi Pipa.

Rexhep Qosja is a total charlatan in my eyes.

As for the 60 years thing. The majority of Gheg Albanians were living under Serbian, Montenegrin, "Macedonian" occupation.

Agim Morina: http://www.albaniana.com/2015/02/udherrefyes-i-shkurte-i-historise-se.html
 
Johane Derite said:
Martin Camaj, Lasgush Poradeci, Ernest Koliqi, Arshi Pipa.

Rexhep Qosja is a total charlatan in my eyes.
Click to expand...
Why only Qosja? This Morina has prepared a long list of names, basically all the scholars.
As for the 60 years thing. The majority of Gheg Albanians were living under Serbian, Montenegrin, "Macedonian" occupation.

Agim Morina: http://www.albaniana.com/2015/02/udherrefyes-i-shkurte-i-historise-se.html
Click to expand...
But were the Great Powers that decided the borders. In the Congress, as i said there were Albanians from Kosova, Macedonia, Montenegro and Arbereshe.
Johane, a language is not like the shoes or the socks. We can not change our language every 30 years.
Megjithate, e vetmja gje qe po mbahesh deri tani ishte gjuha. Ata qe merren me keto pune jane ustallare. Ja kane gjetur anen edhe kesaj pune dhe fundi i kesaj historie eshte pak a shume si endrra e komentuesit te vetem ne artikullin qe postove.
 
Guys, can you tell me wgere i can find a well done classification of albanian by all those standards like: color of eyes, hair, skin, the shape of the head, phenotype, etc.
Thanks.
 
Sile said:
just finished reading all these links below.....it seems like Gheg , IMO will be extinct in 50 years

.

http://www.ecmikosovo.org/en/Curren.../Official-Language-Acquisition-in-Kosovo-2016



http://www.beinkosovo.com/languages-spoken-in-kosovo/



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gheg_Albanian



http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/lifestyle/article/gheg-or-tosk-dialect-still-divides-kosovo.html



https://www.omniglot.com/writing/albanian.htm
Click to expand...
Did you read any part of what I wrote? Gheg Albanian is the official spoken language in Kosovo so idk why you're posting links of Kosovo as for Albania itself, I already explained how half the population doesn't even speak the standard language and as for the diaspora they are in majority Ghegs who speak Gheg Albanian. Just lol @ the Gheg going extinct in 50 years xD.
 
LABERIA said:
But were the Great Powers that decided the borders. In the Congress, as i said there were Albanians from Kosova, Macedonia, Montenegro and Arbereshe.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the Kosova, Macedonia, Montenegro representatives came from occupied Albanian territories with much less power and resources for producing as competent a case in the congress. I mentioned Qosja specifically because there are for example unconfirmed rumours in the grapevine that he was even a collaborator with Serbian intelligence. Obviously I take this with a grain of salt, but I always distrusted him and the angle his work takes.

LABERIA said:
Johane, a language is not like the shoes or the socks. We can not change our language every 30 years.
Click to expand...

Adding the infinitive is not "changing our language". It is enriching it and building a deeper bridge between one people. Like I said before, both forms of verb use must be taught, as they are perfect in their own rights for different uses. And regardless, all the work that was put into 1972 is not going to be flushed down the drain and started from the beginning. There will be corrections made to it and that is that.


A small section from a good article:

"Duke u ndalur vetëm te një çështje që lidhet me Kongresin e Drejtshkrimit (1972), del një pyetje: a kish arsye gjuhësore, pra jopolitike, me u flijue mënyra paskajore e foljes në themelet e standardizimit të gjuhës shqipe?Deri më sot kurrkush nuk ka mundur të sjellë një argument të besueshëm për këtë.
Mënyra paskajore (infinitivi) si kategori foljore përfaqëson kulmin e abstraksionit gramatikor në sistemon foljor të një gjuhe. Ajo përbën formën më përfaqësuese të foljes përkatëse. Kësisoj asgjësimi artificial i paskajores do të thotë asgjësim i vetisë më të lartë abstraguese gramatikore të gjuhës.
2.
Në shqipen e gjallë paskajorja ka mbijetuar plot jetësi. Sot e kësaj dite është një mënyrë shumë e përdorshme prej mbi dy të tretave të shqiptarëve.
Por jo vetëm prej atyre.
Ka pasur prirje që paskajorja të gjallojë edhe në toskërisht.
Një prekatar (virtuoz) i gjuhës shqipe si Faik Konica, i lindur në viset më jugore të Atdheut, e përdor herë pas here në toskërishten e tij elegante. “Po të më pyeste kush me dhanë... një mejtim mbi dukjen fizike të Shqipërisë…”, shkruan ai te “Shqipëria”. Ndërsa te një përkthim i Kalidasës, fragment prej dramës Sakuntala, ve shenimin: “Hindasit e kanë për mëkat me zanë peshq…”.
Në këngën qindvjeçare Për Mëmëdhenë të Mihal Gramenos vargu i dytë është “Vraponi burra se s’ka me pritë”.
Paskajorja gjindet edhe në disa këngë popullore beratase e korçare (“Ke me u pendue/por atëherë ka me qenë vonë…”) e ngjeti. Ajo ka hyrë nëpër pjesë ligjërate, shprehje e lidhëza të toskërishtes si domethënë, meqenëse etj.
Në sesionin Institutit të Shkencave: “Veprat e shokut Stalin mbi gjuhësinë dhe problemet tona gjuhësore në dritën e këtyre veprave” (Tiranë, 26-29 janar 1952) Dh. S. Shuteriqi, që printe në krye të politikës zyrtare për “gjuhën e përbashkët”, pohon: “Infinitivi ka mot që ka hyrë në toskërishte”. E për t’i dhënë dukurisë tharmin e duhur politik, shton”: “Masat punuese kanë filluar ta përdorin. “Zëri i Popullit” ilegal mund të dëshmojë mirë për këtë”.
Nëntë muaj më vonë, në sesionin e dytë shkencor kushtuar “problemit të gjuhës sonë letrare kombëtare e problemeve të tjera të gjuhësisë sonë të lidhura me të” (Tiranë, 10, 11, 12 shtator 1952) ai shpreh mendimin me e përfshi paskajoren në gjuhën standarde. I referohet përdorimit të saj prej E. Hoxhës, në një citat të Stalinit, në raportin e kongresit të 2-të të partisë.
“Me drejtu mirë do të thotë:
“1. Me gjetë një zgjidhe të drejtë të problemit…
“2. Me organizu zbatimin e një vendimi të drejtë…
“3. Me organizu kontrollin e zbatimit të këtij vendimi… Për të gjetë zgjidhjen… duhet me i bashku…”.
Tjetërgjë se Shuteriqi, për të mos lënduar sadopak paracaktimin politik kundër pasurive të gjuhës shqipe në dialektin gegë të saj, nisur mbase edhe nga trajta të cilën e përdor Hoxha, propozon një kryqëzim të njëmendtë mushkor (ndoshta në këtë rast mund të huazohet satira e Fishtës). Propozon që paskajorja në gjuhën e shkruar të ndërtohet në trajtën me punu, me dëfry (e jo me punue, me punuar ose me dëfrye, me dëfryer), ndërsa për foljet e tipit me bâ, me pi, me lanë propozon ndërtimin me bërë, me pirë, me lënë. Por duke pasur parasysh dëshirën e mirë që ka pasur në këtë rast, që gjuhës t’i ruhet një vlerë e pazëvendësueshme, dhe rrethanat politike të kohës, duhet pasur mirëkuptim për këtë shllim të tij."



You can read the rest here: https://peizazhe.com/2008/01/14/paskajorja-gjuha-shqipe-midis-perendimit-e-bizantit/
 
Sile said:
a lot of nations impose a language for its use ..............it does not mean it is the correct language. It means the stronger ethnic people impose their ways on the minority.
Click to expand...

This was the point I was making. What the government decides to establish is not "the true language".

You just contradicted yourself:

Sile said:
Tosk seems to be the true Albanian if one looks at why the Albanian government declared 45 plus years ago that Tosk is the official language of Albania ...............they must know something.
Click to expand...
 
Guys when are ( approxinatively ) the medieval DNA test results going to come out fo albanians?
 
Guys, I have to ask you something, can you please tell me if there have been done several DNA tests on ancient illyrian tombs? And if yes what were the results?
Thanks.
 
Gannicus said:
Guys, I have to ask you something, can you please tell me if there have been done several DNA tests on ancient illyrian tombs? And if yes what were the results?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

We are trying to organize something in Albania with a new archeological expeditions for tumulus burials in South Albania.....I think Trojet knows more about this initiative.


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Gannicus said:
Guys, I have to ask you something, can you please tell me if there have been done several DNA tests on ancient illyrian tombs? And if yes what were the results?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

This has been mentioned several times in this forum, but apparently you're too busy posting nonsense, lol.
As far as Y-DNA goes, so far the only sample that comes from an Illyrian territory and lived closest to the Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian period is a J2b2-L283 found in Bronze Age Dalmatia, who lived ~1600 BCE.

We will see what the future brings...
 
Johane Derite said:
Yes, but the Kosova, Macedonia, Montenegro representatives came from occupied Albanian territories with much less power and resources for producing as competent a case in the congress. I mentioned Qosja specifically because there are for example unconfirmed rumours in the grapevine that he was even a collaborator with Serbian intelligence. Obviously I take this with a grain of salt, but I always distrusted him and the angle his work takes.
Click to expand...
This is not serious Johane. Anyway, it's your strategy, but people are not stupid.
Adding the infinitive is not "changing our language". It is enriching it and building a deeper bridge between one people. Like I said before, both forms of verb use must be taught, as they are perfect in their own rights for different uses. And regardless, all the work that was put into 1972 is not going to be flushed down the drain and started from the beginning. There will be corrections made to it and that is that.
A small section from a good article:
"Duke u ndalur vetëm te një çështje që lidhet me Kongresin e Drejtshkrimit (1972), del një pyetje: a kish arsye gjuhësore, pra jopolitike, me u flijue mënyra paskajore e foljes në themelet e standardizimit të gjuhës shqipe?Deri më sot kurrkush nuk ka mundur të sjellë një argument të besueshëm për këtë.
Mënyra paskajore (infinitivi) si kategori foljore përfaqëson kulmin e abstraksionit gramatikor në sistemon foljor të një gjuhe. Ajo përbën formën më përfaqësuese të foljes përkatëse. Kësisoj asgjësimi artificial i paskajores do të thotë asgjësim i vetisë më të lartë abstraguese gramatikore të gjuhës.
2.
Në shqipen e gjallë paskajorja ka mbijetuar plot jetësi. Sot e kësaj dite është një mënyrë shumë e përdorshme prej mbi dy të tretave të shqiptarëve.
Por jo vetëm prej atyre.
Ka pasur prirje që paskajorja të gjallojë edhe në toskërisht.
Një prekatar (virtuoz) i gjuhës shqipe si Faik Konica, i lindur në viset më jugore të Atdheut, e përdor herë pas here në toskërishten e tij elegante. “Po të më pyeste kush me dhanë... një mejtim mbi dukjen fizike të Shqipërisë…”, shkruan ai te “Shqipëria”. Ndërsa te një përkthim i Kalidasës, fragment prej dramës Sakuntala, ve shenimin: “Hindasit e kanë për mëkat me zanë peshq…”.
Në këngën qindvjeçare Për Mëmëdhenë të Mihal Gramenos vargu i dytë është “Vraponi burra se s’ka me pritë”.
Paskajorja gjindet edhe në disa këngë popullore beratase e korçare (“Ke me u pendue/por atëherë ka me qenë vonë…”) e ngjeti. Ajo ka hyrë nëpër pjesë ligjërate, shprehje e lidhëza të toskërishtes si domethënë, meqenëse etj.
Në sesionin Institutit të Shkencave: “Veprat e shokut Stalin mbi gjuhësinë dhe problemet tona gjuhësore në dritën e këtyre veprave” (Tiranë, 26-29 janar 1952) Dh. S. Shuteriqi, që printe në krye të politikës zyrtare për “gjuhën e përbashkët”, pohon: “Infinitivi ka mot që ka hyrë në toskërishte”. E për t’i dhënë dukurisë tharmin e duhur politik, shton”: “Masat punuese kanë filluar ta përdorin. “Zëri i Popullit” ilegal mund të dëshmojë mirë për këtë”.
Nëntë muaj më vonë, në sesionin e dytë shkencor kushtuar “problemit të gjuhës sonë letrare kombëtare e problemeve të tjera të gjuhësisë sonë të lidhura me të” (Tiranë, 10, 11, 12 shtator 1952) ai shpreh mendimin me e përfshi paskajoren në gjuhën standarde. I referohet përdorimit të saj prej E. Hoxhës, në një citat të Stalinit, në raportin e kongresit të 2-të të partisë.
“Me drejtu mirë do të thotë:
“1. Me gjetë një zgjidhe të drejtë të problemit…
“2. Me organizu zbatimin e një vendimi të drejtë…
“3. Me organizu kontrollin e zbatimit të këtij vendimi… Për të gjetë zgjidhjen… duhet me i bashku…”.
Tjetërgjë se Shuteriqi, për të mos lënduar sadopak paracaktimin politik kundër pasurive të gjuhës shqipe në dialektin gegë të saj, nisur mbase edhe nga trajta të cilën e përdor Hoxha, propozon një kryqëzim të njëmendtë mushkor (ndoshta në këtë rast mund të huazohet satira e Fishtës). Propozon që paskajorja në gjuhën e shkruar të ndërtohet në trajtën me punu, me dëfry (e jo me punue, me punuar ose me dëfrye, me dëfryer), ndërsa për foljet e tipit me bâ, me pi, me lanë propozon ndërtimin me bërë, me pirë, me lënë. Por duke pasur parasysh dëshirën e mirë që ka pasur në këtë rast, që gjuhës t’i ruhet një vlerë e pazëvendësueshme, dhe rrethanat politike të kohës, duhet pasur mirëkuptim për këtë shllim të tij."

You can read the rest here: https://peizazhe.com/2008/01/14/paskajorja-gjuha-shqipe-midis-perendimit-e-bizantit/
Click to expand...
Seriously, now Mehmet Elezi is even a linguist.
http://www.respublica.al/2015/08/12...ik-“jeniçeri”-me-prapavijë-politike-që-kërkon
 
LABERIA said:
This is not serious Johane. Anyway, it's your strategy, but people are not stupid.

Seriously, now Mehmet Elezi is even a linguist.
http://www.respublica.al/2015/08/12...ik-“jeniçeri”-me-prapavijë-politike-që-kërkon
Click to expand...

The only motivation to be so against introducing the infinitive into the standard is one based on provincialism.

This is very serious. I don't know if you have visited Kosova, Montenegro and Macedonian territories
and talked to any average person to understand in depth how much the '72 standard has failed them.

If your arguments about unity and fears of cantonization or separatist tendencies are sincere then it would be
wise to understand the urgency of not alienating a large majority of Albanians.

There are of course actors that will try use this to wedge and divide and conquer (as Sile is doing in this thread quite
transparently by first saying Tosk is true Albanian, and then trying to make Gheg some pure victim which he is trying to conserve)
but that does not make it any less necessary from a historical perspective. There is no actual argument against updating the standard
which has failed abysmally Albanians of Kosova, Macedonia and Montenegro. It is more dangerous to have the state speak in forms that
are so alien to a large majority of people that live in poverty, such that when certain "preachers" or ideologues start popping up and start speaking
"shkurt e shqip" to them, it has an overabundance of potency.

If my motivation for this were on provincialism then I would be propagandizing that the subjunctive form should be eliminated entirely since it comes from
greek linguistic innovations, or that ancient greek used to have the infinitive also and therefore it is prestigious. I am not basing this on provincialism.

But I don't think the Tosk form of verb use should be removed. I think they are superior in certain respects as are Ghegs. I think that there is no actual argument
that can be made for not adding what already was part of the standard before the 72 one since it becomes a net positive.

The example with Faik Konica alone was good enough to make this point that its possible to have both.

The only slight argument you made about why the infinitive shouldn't be added was that you think its less suited to prose which linguistically is
no argument at all and holds no scientific merit. Get real on this Laberia.
 
We had a perfectly balanced Standard which was supposedly based on Gheg but it many aspects it was more similar to Tosk. They were still saying kam qene unlike most Ghegs using jam kjen, jam kan, jom kon, etc. since this is not the topic to discuss it. They could replace -ue with -ua, and for -ing there was a form in Albanian 'tuke' which is perfectly between tue and duke, where again the majority of Ghegs use also 'ka' as in 'ka shkoj' for 'tue/tuj shkue'.

But yeah, they had to change everything and introduce some gay sounding Standard that lost so many features and many words were transformed so deeply that the root was lost.
 
LABERIA said:
Can you post a link where we can read this recent studies? Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...


you need to stop being lazy ..............do I ask for your link?

THE EVOLUTION OF THE MACEDONIAN
TOMB: HELLENISTIC FUNERARY
ARCHITECTURE REVISITED
УДК. 904:726.821(38)„-03/-02“
In light of the recent discovery of a tomb described
as ‘Macedonian’ near Bonče, it is timely to review
the Macedonian tomb type. The tomb near Bonče
has been dated to the end of the fourth century BCE.
1
As the archaeological community awaits publication
of the excavations undertaken over the course of the
last two years, projections that the Bonče tomb is of
Macedonian in type would be a unique find so far
north in the ancient Macedonian Kingdom. Only two
other tombs have been discovered in the region of
the northern Macedonian Kingdom; Ohrid-Varos and
Selce (in present day Albania).
2
The approximately
60 tombs discovered so far are primarily located
in Lower Macedon (Fig.1) with just six additional
tombs identified in the Peloponnesus and two in Asia
Minor.
3
The introduction of this tomb type is com-
monly associated with the expansion of the Macedo-
nian kingdom by King Philip II and his son Alexan-
der III (Alexander the Great) when the Macedonian
royal family and the aristocracy procured immense
wealth. The dating of the tombs reflects this associa-
tion, with the earliest tomb occurring in the last half
of the fourth century BCE and most of the latest ones
in the middle of the second century BCE when the
kingdom was seized as a Roman province.

look it up yourself......or take a " how to " google search course .............3 hours well spent
 
Sile said:
you need to stop being lazy ..............do I ask for your link?

THE EVOLUTION OF THE MACEDONIAN
TOMB: HELLENISTIC FUNERARY
ARCHITECTURE REVISITED
УДК. 904:726.821(38)„-03/-02“
In light of the recent discovery of a tomb described
as ‘Macedonian’ near Bonče, it is timely to review
the Macedonian tomb type. The tomb near Bonče
has been dated to the end of the fourth century BCE.
1
As the archaeological community awaits publication
of the excavations undertaken over the course of the
last two years, projections that the Bonče tomb is of
Macedonian in type would be a unique find so far
north in the ancient Macedonian Kingdom. Only two
other tombs have been discovered in the region of
the northern Macedonian Kingdom; Ohrid-Varos and
Selce (in present day Albania).
2
The approximately
60 tombs discovered so far are primarily located
in Lower Macedon (Fig.1) with just six additional
tombs identified in the Peloponnesus and two in Asia
Minor.
3
The introduction of this tomb type is com-
monly associated with the expansion of the Macedo-
nian kingdom by King Philip II and his son Alexan-
der III (Alexander the Great) when the Macedonian
royal family and the aristocracy procured immense
wealth. The dating of the tombs reflects this associa-
tion, with the earliest tomb occurring in the last half
of the fourth century BCE and most of the latest ones
in the middle of the second century BCE when the
kingdom was seized as a Roman province.

look it up yourself......or take a " how to " google search course .............3 hours well spent
Click to expand...
Link please.
 
LABERIA said:
Vari lesht atij po lexo këtë carin tonë se ça thotë. Pse nuk vazhdojnë të lozin me haplogrupet e çun xhaje apo çun halle por merren me keto gjëra që nuk ja kanë haberin?
Click to expand...


For second time I ask translation in English,

either I will consider it an offencive post to forum members what-ever it says. bad or good.


THAT IS NOT A TRANSLATION
LABERIA said:
Yetos, how can be translated in English the word kalamaradhes?
Click to expand...


So I ask you again polite to Translate the above.

 
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