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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Why are you two now fighting over nothing thru entire page?

    Dibran, trying too hard is just making counter effect. Taking the breath sometimes, chilling out, is much more productive.
    Obviously we consider you Albanian, nothing less then any other Albanian. But trying to idolize and excuse Albanians in every thread might be seen as a hard trying to prove something.

    To be honest most Albanians are like cattle, respect to minority with manners, culture and education.
    Idk what the hell you're going on about. Laberia insulted me and I am arguing with him. That issue does not concern you. Has nothing to do with being Albanian.

  2. #927
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the official language of Kosovo is gheg albanian
    and
    the official langauge of Albania is tosk albanian
    .
    there is already both, you are just complicating the issue
    The official language of Kosova is the same one as in Albania proper. Which means : standard Albanian, roughly 80 % Tosk ( subdialect-northern Tosk, area of Pogradec-Kolonje) and 20% Gheg.

    After its independence Kosova adopted the same official language with Albania. You should see how ridiculous sounds the president and prime of Kosova while speeching in standardised language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    1) Read my previous posts.
    2) Don't put in my mouth words that i have never said.
    3) Read my previous posts.
    A e kupton se çfarë je duke folur? Nuk na mjafton tufa e idiotëve me këtë Dibranin në krye që po na bëjnë qepaze por duhet të merremi dhe me gjëra të tilla të pakuptimta?
    Diskutimi mes veti ndihmon nuk demton. E pame se ku na shpuri komunizmi ku askush nuk kish guxim per me diskutu

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    Quote Originally Posted by ilir View Post
    He is talking about music Youtube Standard Gegh.
    That's pretty cool. Almost all the successful music in Albania it's in Gheg dialects

  5. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I think you’re completely missing his point. People like Fustan was instigating a flame war and insulting other Albanians. Derailing the subject matter. Also this thread is posted in the YDNA category. Meaning it is EXACTLY about YDNA of the Albanian people. You’re talking about language. There’s another section of the forum for that.
    Okay, maybe you're right. I just read the title of this thread and it say otherwise. Maybe the title would be; What was and is the Albanian DNA or Y-dna either?
    Definitely it isn't my fault if they put the wrong title on the top of the thread.

  6. #931
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Standard Albanian has started to be applied in Albania, Kosovo, among Albanians of Macedonia and Montenegro (Yugoslavia) at the same time. The whole education system in those states/areas uses the standard since the begining and that has helped in boosting the communication among albanians and in use common literature as well as education/academic material. So, in Kosovo we speak our dialects in everyday use (same Albaninas of Montenegro& Macedonia they comunicate in their local dialect), but when we write and communicate in public/administration we try to stick to the standard. There is only one TV station in Kosovo that tries to use Gheg, but believe me they sound very stupid since our Gheg has changed due to the influence of standardization and no-one speaks like that anymore. Language is a loving thing constantly changing and having inluences of all sorts (not only of the standardization) so nothing is permanent.

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  8. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Sorry, but you missed the whole point.

    Just looking TV right now. It's RTSH2 and its programs are mostly in Greek, Aromanian, Macedonian, Montenegrin and Gypsy language.

  9. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    nga foleja

    I understand your point Trojet, and you are quite correct that there are 6 clades under Y33200* who have separated 1300 years ago.

    My point was that............
    I've been meaning to respond to this, but I've been kind of busy lately.

    Just wanted to say that I do appreciate you coming here and trying to clarify what you meant. Although I may not agree with your analysis/theories all the time, I have to admit that you're one of the most fair users on that forum, from what I've seen. Also, as someone who probably has the most data and knowledge regarding J-L283, I have to say that your analysis in regards to Albanian haplotypes, etc, has been pretty fair and accurate, considering what's known.
    Last edited by Trojet; 06-07-18 at 12:00.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I've been meaning to respond to this, but I've been kind of busy lately.

    Just wanted to say that I do appreciate you coming here and trying to clarify what you meant. Although I may not agree with your analysis/theories all the time, I have to admit that you're one of the most fair users on that forum, from what I've seen. Also, as someone who probably has the most data and knowledge regarding J-L283, I have to say that your analysis in regards to Albanian haplotypes, etc, has been pretty fair and accurate, considering what's known.
    Thank you, well most people there are of Slavic paternal origin, and I guess will not be so interested in paleo-Balkan peoples. In some cases there seems to exist "autochtonous" reasoning, where some people I guess would like to prove Bessi theory correct for the reason of Slavs being earlier than Albanians in Albania, so a biased POV. When I look at that I do it for the sake of Bessi tribe, or any other tribe.

    Probably also because I'm half Serb (though the other half is just similar S.Slavs at odds with Serbs), I'm a bit more objective in these matters.:) Recently a Serb was confirmed to be S19928+ and by STR's he is surely in the same group as Gripshi, so likely these families have Albanian origin in medieval times. This particular branch is quite rare.

    On the other hand Vasojevici clan for example have been basically proven to descend from Herzegovina. Unpublished results from Herzegovina in families descended from medieval Herzegovina Vlach tribe of Bobani belong to the same clade and also there is a specific clade related to Vasojevici (dys458=13) which occurs in Croatia and Slovenia. In addition to that in Vasojevici in 1485 surname Hercegovic was present and it was probably someone from Kosaca family, in whose service were also Bobani. Although Vasojevici don't descend from Bobani at some point in Medieval times they stem from the same source.


    Kuchi are a different story. Aside from Bonkeq being clearly Albanian speaking in 1485, in older study where Albanians from Macedonia were sampled there were haplotypes with dys389=13-31 + dys388=13 (specific Kuchi value), in addition there was one dys389=13-31 + dys388=13 + dys19=14, there is one Serb from Kosovo who is not of Kuchi tribe but is surely related and he has this value of dys19=14. So among Albanians from Macedonia it seems both of these appear, unfortunately in this new study of Macedonia as far as I could tell they did not appear, (and in the older study there is no dys385). One Bjelopavlic haplotype did appear there though. Generally these Z16661 Kuchi haplotypes are rare in Albanians, and considering their closest cousin by STR's is a Bulgarian Z16661 they probably originate from there, in addition of Bulgaria having great diversity under Y3183.


    Generally there are no good matches between Albanian and Bulgarian J-L283, even looking casually at Bulgarian samples including those from studies, it can be seen that basically dys19=14 almost don't exist there. The only exception might be dys385a=10, but these are rare in Albanians.

    Tricky fact is that in the central Balkans there were Thracian tribes like Triballi who were later pushed eastwards by Illyrians and because of that it is very tricky to discern what is Illyrian/Triballian. I suspect Triballi must have been "heavy" with some V13 clades among others.

    For example I think Berisha cluster might have originally Triballian origin, because it is very widespread in Kosovo Albanians but rare elsewhere, in Kosovo sample 14/117 are members of this cluster, other than that I just saw one from Tirana in Aromanian study. None in Arberesh study etc.. And they have some 3000 years distant Bulgarian. Generally in Bulgaria there is almost everything under Z5018, there are now 2 Albanian Z5018* clades and these are local I would guess.

    Still if their cluster is Thracian originally, it probably was Illyrian later in antiquity once those areas were taken by Illyrians. Yes I know there is one Italian also there but he seems quite distant by STR's.

    Regarding BY611, I don't think one can look at simply numbers of Z2705 in Albanians and Bulgarians and draw conclusions outright, because the Y33200 cluster is young, and additionally BY611 is not any less common in Bulgaria than it's distant cousin clade Y5587, and yet Y5587 is firmly entrenched there (TMRCA 4400 ypb), as I think will be BY250, because there are Aromanian and Bulgarian haplotypes which should belong to several clades under BY250, other than that single Pomak at present.
    As I heard, this unusual Albanian haplotype turned out CTS9219* (and he looks very unusual) so that suggests this clade is indigenous in the West. He has no relation to some other CTS9219*, who I believe might have a relation with some Greek Z2103's, possibly indicating strong connection of CTS9219 with the Balkans.

    About L283, I see there are new members of these older clades. You might know them? :)

  11. #936
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    Of course I know those members under these "older" clades of J-L283, as I was the one who suggested they get the YFull analysis :) Besides the ancient DNA, these new members will throw another challenge to the Sardinian hypothesis of J-L283 expansion.

    Here is how the new basal J-L283 tree should look once their analysis is complete:
    • J-L283
    • YP29 (Sardinian + England. It would be interesting to see the TMRCA but I think likely Bronze Age. There is also two samples from Netherlands who are here from a scientific study)
    • Z627* (Istanbul Turkey, thinks may be originally from Greece)
    • Z600* (Dominican Republic)
    • Z585 (mostly Italians)
    • Z615* (England)
    • Z597,Z628
    • FGC64029 (Mediterranean + Lebanon)
    • Z2507 (BA Dalmatia, Balkans, etc)


    Since the BA Armenian was negative for Z627, he should indeed be J-L283* (I think he had no call for YP29).
    Another thing to keep in mind is that there is two Balkan samples between L283 and Z585 levels, as I explained at the other thread. Point is, the Sardinian hypothesis is strongly challenged, and combined with aDNA evidence I think J-L283 expanded from East to West during the Bronze Age, and not from Sardinia to East. IMO, these Sardinian samples suggest some Bronze Age migration from perhaps NW Balkans that was rich in J-L283 "early" clades and got isolated there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    So among Albanians from Macedonia it seems both of these appear, unfortunately in this new study of Macedonia as far as I could tell they did not appear
    Can you let me know where I can see the STRs for this new study of Macedonia, as I haven't had a chance to look around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Regarding BY611, I don't think one can look at simply numbers of Z2705 in Albanians and Bulgarians and draw conclusions outright, because the Y33200 cluster is young, and additionally BY611 is not any less common in Bulgaria than it's distant cousin clade Y5587, and yet Y5587 is firmly entrenched there (TMRCA 4400 ypb), as I think will be BY250, because there are Aromanian and Bulgarian haplotypes which should belong to several clades under BY250, other than that single Pomak at present.
    As I heard, this unusual Albanian haplotype turned out CTS9219* (and he looks very unusual) so that suggests this clade is indigenous in the West. He has no relation to some other CTS9219*, who I believe might have a relation with some Greek Z2103's, possibly indicating strong connection of CTS9219 with the Balkans.
    Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the one Albanian sample with the relatively uncommon values that you were talking about earlier was confirmed Y33200, so it is not an earlier split, unless TMRCA would change taking him into consideration. So with these new results, what's your opinion on the Y33200 and BY611 origins?

    I was looking for some data on Romanians, and I remember you mentioned a you found some haplotypes. Could you give me a source please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Of course I know those members under these "older" clades of J-L283, as I was the one who suggested they get the YFull analysis :) Besides the ancient DNA, these new members will throw another challenge to the Sardinian hypothesis of J-L283 expansion.
    Here is how the new basal J-L283 tree should look once their analysis is complete:
    • J-L283
    • YP29 (Sardinian + England. It would be interesting to see the TMRCA but I think likely Bronze Age. There is also two samples from Netherlands who are here from a scientific study)
    • Z627* (Istanbul Turkey, thinks may be originally from Greece)
    • Z600* (Dominican Republic)
    • Z585 (mostly Italians)
    • Z615* (England)
    • Z597,Z628
    • FGC64029 (Mediterranean + Lebanon)
    • Z2507 (BA Dalmatia, Balkans, etc)

    Since the BA Armenian was negative for Z627, he should indeed be J-L283* (I think he had no call for YP29).
    Another thing to keep in mind is that there is two Balkan samples between L283 and Z585 levels, as I explained at the other thread. Point is, the Sardinian hypothesis is strongly challenged, and combined with aDNA evidence I think J-L283 expanded from East to West during the Bronze Age, and not from Sardinia to East. IMO, these Sardinian samples suggest some Bronze Age migration from perhaps NW Balkans that was rich in J-L283 "early" clades and got isolated there.
    Generally, I've noticed a tendency of many people to associate anything with "Steppe destroyers". It's kinda popular. :)
    Regarding Armenian sample, actually when I was first told of him, I misunderstood him for the lone Georgian on ftdna. Only after you told did I look at his SNP's.

    So either L283 expanded from the East with IE's, or it might have arrived in Italy during very Early BA, like it was likely the case with Minoan J2a's (migration from the East).
    Generally the problem with Italian/Sardinian theory is this Armenian sample.
    The problem with Steppe IE is low presence of J-L283 in the East, especially older clades. Also at Z2505/Z585 level there is currently a bottleneck of 900 years, that one has to explain somehow. The bulk of L283 expansion is after this bottleneck. So the IE expansion of anything at/under Z597/Z2507 is in no doubt.
    If we assume that 3300 BC (their current TMRCA) there were two IE groups in NW Balkans and that one branch went to Italy/Sardinia, and the other stayed there and later massively expanded we still have a problem with what sort of an IE migration could that have been? We are talking about Sardinia here. So these Italian clades being so old, older than BB's who were first IE to visit Sardinia and they did it later, pose a problem here.

    As I said in another thread, the find had Litzen ware, which could be tied to one BB element in Ljubljana culture (the other, earlier was Vucedol and likely unrelated), some archaeologists like Slovenian Paola Korošec have suggested further ties with Italy, specifically Remedello culture. We know today Remedello was not IE, BB was, but if she could see Remedello elements in BB element, it might be telling.

    BB's themselves where often called non-IE earlier by many because of numerous deviations, today we know that was not the case.

    I think it might be also very useful to look at the Norabak find (Armenian J-L283), and just as I got many clues from Vanik find, it might be possible to do the same.

    If it's about Balkan matters, situation is quite clear for L283, this Posusje/Dinara culture had specific traits and I think it's not such a big problem to trace it further down, even to historical Illyrian times. More precisely to talk about specific tribes instead of vague "Illyrian". They were fond of fortifications and fixed settlements, something that was carried on by many subsequent cultures all the way to Illyrian times. For example neighboring Cetina culture people were nomadic. Also importantly L283 people practiced inhumation, whereas Cetina people practiced both inhumation and cremation.
    Cetina is a very good fit for E-V13 as rafc suggested. Although it still cannot be excluded that Trypillia E-M78 was the ancestor of V13. Because I've seen some fairly certain PH1246 in studies from Moldavia, where still very few people are tested.

    I would say that R1b colleagues of Dinara and Cetina were quite different, P312's for the first and Z2103's for the second, especially for example KMS67 (there are some Croatian haplotypes who look like KMS67). So in short Vucedol (whose offshoot is Cetina) was likely proto-proto-Greek, as was the opinion of some archaeologists.

    About Illyrians, there is this Dinara L283 element which must have been very strong. However also Urnfield in late Bronze Age was important, and it seems actually that some younger V13 clades were almost certainly involved there alongside some isolated R1b-U152's that one can find today, plus residual Vucedol elements.

    From my maternal side I should be R-U152>Y4355 and this one is a candidate for Urnfield Illyrian element.

    About that guy from Turkey, who might be from Greece, well you might search his STR's if you know them, and if they are more specific, he might have close matches in Turkey or Greece.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Can you let me know where I can see the STRs for this new study of Macedonia, as I haven't had a chance to look around.
    From YHRD.:) They were uploaded recently, I think Albanian samples even have 23 STR's, Turkish have just 17. So you can get them through trial & error, until you get all STR's, GATAH4 is +1 there ofc.

    I can help you with some I was looking for, these are on YFiler ftdna order:
    ?? ?? ?? ?? 11-14 10 ?? 11 ?? ?? 14 20 ?? ?? 11 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
    ?? ?? ?? ?? 11-14 11 ?? 11 ?? ?? 14 20 ?? ?? 11 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 3/102
    12 ?? ?? ?? 14-17 ?? ?? 11 ?? ?? 16 19 ?? ?? 9 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 4/102
    12 ?? ?? ?? 14-16 ?? ?? 11 ?? ?? 16 19 ?? ?? 9 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
    13 ?? ?? ?? 14-15 ?? ?? 11 ?? ?? 15 20 ?? ?? 10 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 3/102
    13 24 ?? ?? 11-11 ?? ?? 13 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 12 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 14/102
    13 24 13 ?? 16-18 ?? 13 11 30 19 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
    13 24 13 ?? 16-18 ?? 13 11 30 20 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
    13 24 13 ?? 16-18 ?? 13 11 30 21 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
    13 24 13 ?? 16-18 ?? 13 11 30 18 ?? ?? 12 ?? ?? ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 2/102
    12 ?? ?? ?? ??-?? ?? ?? 13 ?? ?? 15 ?? ?? ?? 12 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 2/102

    This is the one that fit's in Bjelopavlic cluster, 439=11, 460=10
    13 24 13 10 16-18 11 13 11 30 16 14 20 11 15 10 21 Macedonia [Albanian]
    481=22, 533=11, 460=10, 449=30, 576=17, 570=21


    These are actually YFiler plus so they have more markers but only 23 from ftdna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the one Albanian sample with the relatively uncommon values that you were talking about earlier was confirmed Y33200, so it is not an earlier split, unless TMRCA would change taking him into consideration. So with these new results, what's your opinion on the Y33200 and BY611 origins?
    Celibashi is Y33200+? Well that's a surprise, it means Z2705 mutated on dys393 and then this clade mutated back on a slow STR. I was looking at one Ghegh from Arberesh study and thought he might be perhaps positive to Y33200, because he had dys393=13 + dys392=11. That's a big problem for Balkan BY611, because though widespread it remains young.

    Someone looking at that Russian/Ukrainian might even suggest a Bulgar expansion. Seriously I don't think that is possible. How Balkan is BY611 to begin with?
    Y10789 Italy/Spain
    Y23374* YF06082 an American, but where is he from? His specific STR value seems to be dys390=23
    His YFiler
    12 23 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 29 15 15 18 12 15 12 ??

    And these are his closest YFiler matches from YHRD, note because he has dys393=12, it's less likely to confuse him with some L51 who have 385=11-11, he also has 448=18 which is unusual.
    12 23 14 11 11-11 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 11 15 12 23 Catalonia, Spain [Spanish] 1 match of 1415
    12 23 14 11 11-11 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 11 15 12 23 Alicante, Spain [Spanish] 1 match of 216

    So his closest matches are from... once again it's Spain, these have dys393=12, dys385=11-11 and dys390=23.

    What I find very interesting here is that these haplotypes are from:
    Alicante, Valencia, Spain
    Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain

    While the Spanish R-Y30192>Y32843, (TMRCA 3200 with an American R-Y23373*) are from
    Alicante, Valencia, Spain
    Girona near Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain

    BY611 might even be Celtic, if all these with TMRCA of 2600 remain in the West. By logic it should be paleo-Balkan but that might be partially dependent on finding something older than Y33200.

    Also one has to wonder is Balkan Z2705* ever going to be found? There are many Serbs with dys549=14, and I noticed this Portuguese Z2705* had it and shared it with a Ukrainian guy, so basically I was possibly correct in suggesting a link between them based on dys549 and some other STR's as Ukrainian is also Z2705*. I suggested one BY611 there test for Y33200 but he turned out Y33200+, it didn't work, even though there might be a connection between Ukrainian and Portuguese (if they form some clade of their own) based on dys549.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I was looking for some data on Romanians, and I remember you mentioned a you found some haplotypes. Could you give me a source please?
    These 2 from Dolj area (with identical haplotypes on 19 STR's) are from the known Basarab study (with dys385 from Roma study) and Wallachian dys392=11 is from 'Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania.', STR's are only available on YHRD.

    Interestingly all 3 BY611 from Romania are with this dys392=11 haplotype. There is on Yfull one from Teleorman, has anybody seen his STR's, if dys392=11 are too Y33200+ then he might have this haplotype considering the lack of "standard" Y33200's there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Celibashi is Y33200+? Well that's a surprise, it means Z2705 mutated on dys393 and then this clade mutated back on a slow STR. I was looking at one Ghegh from Arberesh study and thought he might be perhaps positive to Y33200, because he had dys393=13 + dys392=11. That's a big problem for Balkan BY611, because though widespread it remains young.

    Someone looking at that Russian/Ukrainian might even suggest a Bulgar expansion. Seriously I don't think that is possible. How Balkan is BY611 to begin with?
    BY611 might even be Celtic, if all these with TMRCA of 2600 remain in the West. By logic it should be paleo-Balkan but that might be partially dependent on finding something older than Y33200.

    Also one has to wonder is Balkan Z2705* ever going to be found? There are many Serbs with dys549=14, and I noticed this Portuguese Z2705* had it and shared it with a Ukrainian guy, so basically I was possibly correct in suggesting a link between them based on dys549 and some other STR's as Ukrainian is also Z2705*. I suggested one BY611 there test for Y33200 but he turned out Y33200+, it didn't work, even though there might be a connection between Ukrainian and Portuguese (if they form some clade of their own) based on dys549.

    These 2 from Dolj area (with identical haplotypes on 19 STR's) are from the known Basarab study (with dys385 from Roma study) and Wallachian dys392=11 is from 'Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania.', STR's are only available on YHRD.

    Interestingly all 3 BY611 from Romania are with this dys392=11 haplotype. There is on Yfull one from Teleorman, has anybody seen his STR's, if dys392=11 are too Y33200+ then he might have this haplotype considering the lack of "standard" Y33200's there.
    Not sure if followed well, but 301843 Tutunci, Russian Federation is actually with Bulgarian origin. He is from the population exchange between Russia and Turkey when Bulgarians, Gagauze and even Albanians were resettled in Bessarabia, Southern Ukraine and Crimea. During WW2 the Bulgarians from Crimea and Ukraine were once again repatriated by Stalin to Siberia and Kazahstan. Some returned after that, but Tutunci seems to remain in Siberia.
    Also just recently the Bulgarian 739612 with 392=11 was proven BY611/PH544+

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the one Albanian sample with the relatively uncommon values that you were talking about earlier was confirmed Y33200, so it is not an earlier split, unless TMRCA would change taking him into consideration. So with these new results, what's your opinion on the Y33200 and BY611 origins?

    I was looking for some data on Romanians, and I remember you mentioned a you found some haplotypes. Could you give me a source please?
    Kit Number Paternal Ancestor Name Country Haplogroup DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464 DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438 DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511 DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446 DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565 DYS710 DYS485 DYS632 DYS495 DYS540 DYS714 DYS716 DYS717 DYS505 DYS556 DYS549 DYS589 DYS522 DYS494 DYS533 DYS636 DYS575 DYS638 DYS462 DYS452 DYS445 Y-GATA-A10 DYS463 DYS441 Y-GGAAT-1B07 DYS525 DYS712 DYS593 DYS650 DYS532 DYS715 DYS504 DYS513 DYS561 DYS552 DYS726 DYS635 DYS587 DYS643 DYS497 DYS510 DYS434 DYS461 DYS435
    Ysearch SXRNE Anghel Romania R1b 12 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 11 29 15 8-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-17-17 12 11 19-23 14 12 12 12 15 11 30 12 12 24 14 10 23 11
    RO80 OT 1 Romania R-L23 12 24 14 11 11-11 12 13 11 29 15 15 19 11 16 12 23
    RU356 Romania R-L23 12 24 14 12 11-11 12 12 12 13 11 29 15 15 19 12 16 12 23
    RU357 Romania 12 24 14 12 11-11 12 12 12 13 11 29 15 15 19 12 16 12 23

    I do not know location of the first one, but rest of them are from Wallachia.
    If you need names of studies and all Romanian haplotypes I can send it to you.

    All 4 haplotypes have dys393=12 and dys392=11
    In terms of the older subclades, dys392=11 does not mean anything, all other subclades and rest of BY611 have dys392=13 which is also a modal for R1b I think. So mutation dys392=13 -->11 must have happened much recent in time.
    When some individuals share the same mutation that diverges from the modal for their haplogroup it means that they might have a more recent shared common ancestor(s) among them then they have with other people from the same hg who do not have the mutation.
    Of course, there is a possibility that the same mutation happened twice or more time independently.
    The best way to find out how long ago their common ancestor lived are WGS or Big Y tests, but you can collect all haplotypes and try some predictors based on str markers. I am not sure if it is very precise.

    Older branches of BY611 have dys393=12 so it might be a sign of an older branch, also can be a backward mutation from 13 -->12 because in Albania haplotypes with dys393=13 and dys392=11 have been found.
    Haplotypes with dys393=12 are rare in Balkan but they exist in Serbia, Albania, Croatia maybe other countries, too.
    One from Serbia was included in the Pille Hallast study where PH544 (equivalent to R-Z2705) was discovered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    I do not know location of the first one, but rest of them are from Wallachia.
    If you need names of studies and all Romanian haplotypes I can send it to you.
    Thank you!

    I don't need the names. I was actually looking to compare data from the region of Alba with the other regions in Romania. Do you have any information on that? Or maybe Transyavania vs the rest, but Y-DNA instead of the mtDNA that is usually available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastara View Post
    Also just recently the Bulgarian 739612 with 392=11 was proven BY611/PH544+
    Do you know if he was tested for anything downstream of that? Y33200?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I would say that R1b colleagues of Dinara and Cetina were quite different, P312's for the first and Z2103's for the second, especially for example KMS67 (there are some Croatian haplotypes who look like KMS67). So in short Vucedol (whose offshoot is Cetina) was likely proto-proto-Greek, as was the opinion of some archaeologists.
    Are you distinguishing Illyrians from Greeks just because these two subclades split early? You are accepting two different haplogroups in Illyrians, so why not two different subclades? I think it's very possible that Illyrians and Greeks shared some R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Thank you!

    I don't need the names. I was actually looking to compare data from the region of Alba with the other regions in Romania. Do you have any information on that? Or maybe Transyavania vs the rest, but Y-DNA instead of the mtDNA that is usually available.



    Do you know if he was tested for anything downstream of that? Y33200?


    .

    You are welcome!
    On Ysearch and FTDna I was looking for I-CTS10228 haplotypes. Results from Romania are pretty rare, it is the same for other haplogroups. A bit sad that we do not have many people tested in the biggest country in SE Europe. Even their FTDna project is full of people with non-romanian paternal origins.
    Most of the data coming from scientific studies, but it is not enough as well.
    You can find researches on the following links:
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2005.00251.x
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0041803
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0053731
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...estern_Romania
    Wallachia https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1a...59e71c3f&pli=1

    Haplotypes from "Y-Chromosome Analysis in Individuals Bearing the Basarab Name of the First Dynasty of Wallachian Kings" have additional markers in the study https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015201#abstract


    I have it somewhat better organized in word and excel files.

    Bulgarian DYS393=12 DYS392=11 is only confirmed PH544+ and have not tested further as I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Not sure if followed well, but 301843 Tutunci, Russian Federation is actually with Bulgarian origin. He is from the population exchange between Russia and Turkey when Bulgarians, Gagauze and even Albanians were resettled in Bessarabia, Southern Ukraine and Crimea. During WW2 the Bulgarians from Crimea and Ukraine were once again repatriated by Stalin to Siberia and Kazahstan. Some returned after that, but Tutunci seems to remain in Siberia.
    Also just recently the Bulgarian 739612 with 392=11 was proven BY611/PH544+

    We mentioned him earlier here. Well that is very significant if he has Balkan origin because he would be the first Z2705*. And as Bulgarian he would add to diversity of BY611 there.
    Yes I noticed 739612 from Bulgarian forum. One Serb was tested already as Z2705+, and it seems this Albanian 392=11 as Y33200+. I guess this Romanian from Yfull also has 392=11.

    Also to add there is a sample of 97 Bulgarians from "Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma" study which has 8 L23+, including 2 BY611's
    BM066 Bulgaria BUG General population 13 23 14 11 11 11 12 12 13 13 13 29 15 15 20 11 15 12 23 R-L23
    BM098 Bulgaria BUG General population 13 24 14 11 11 11 12 12 12 14 14 28 16 15 19 11 15 12 23 R-L23

    Actually I just noticed this BM066 has dys390=23!That value is only shared by this American Y23373* (Z2705-), but he has 393=13. :) 448=20, maybe Y33200-.
    Second Bulgarian from this study has dys392=14 + dys389=14-14 (28). For example L277 has as modal dys392=14, but their modal on dys389 is 13-15. There is one Bulgarian L277 N81217 but he has dys385=10-15 and no relation to this one, ofc this one has importantly 11-11. Plus 393=13, no way he is anything other than BY611. A good candidate for Y33200-.


    On Albanian project I know there is one dys393=12, and ofc they must have suspected he was Y33200- but he turned out Y33200+, obviously a back mutation. When the number of haplotypes is great as it is the case with BY611, probability for unusual mutations increases..


    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Thank you!
    Are you distinguishing Illyrians from Greeks just because these two subclades split early? You are accepting two different haplogroups in Illyrians, so why not two different subclades? I think it's very possible that Illyrians and Greeks shared some R1b.

    I talk about the original proto-community in which certain language might have developed. For Greek those were likely older clades of Z2103, especially the likes of KMS67, knowing that from a large sample rafc once posted significant percentage of Greek Z2103+ was CTS7822- (22.5 % of Greek R1b), and obviously few Greeks have been SNP tested but KMS67 has already been found and looking at STR values from studies there are plenty of others. Of course few are L277 etc..
    I have seen among Greeks also sings that Y5592 are going to be found, and that Vucedol sample was Y5592*.
    Of course R1b's were joined by some other haplogroups and clades early on, later even more so, but I'm talking about the ultimate "originators" of a language.


    Such early splits have already been proven to be of great relevance in the case of U106 (proto-Germanic), U152 (Italic, Celtic etc.) etc.


    I do not believe one can speak of any "Illyrians" before the late Bronze age. It was then when first clearly identifiable Illyrian cultures were formed, from which descended Illyrian tribes from antiquity. Only after the arrival of Urnfield elements one can speak of the beginnings of proper Illyrian identity. Prior to that various elements that would later make up Illyrians had only limited contacts or no relation whatsoever.
    For Slavs for example this date is much, much younger.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    On Ysearch and FTDna I was looking for I-CTS10228 haplotypes. Results from Romania are pretty rare, it is the same for other haplogroups. A bit sad that we do not have many people tested in the biggest country in SE Europe. Even their FTDna project is full of people with non-romanian paternal origins.

    Interesting to see results of this Romanian. I bet he is YF08832 from YFull considering few people have been tested there (I know of only about 100 ethnic Romanians which includes 9 Moldovans), also that in Romania one only finds these haplotypes and finally that Albanian dys392=11 is apparently Y33200+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    We mentioned him earlier here. Well that is very significant if he has Balkan origin because he would be the first Z2705*. And as Bulgarian he would add to diversity of BY611 there.
    Yes I noticed 739612 from Bulgarian forum. One Serb was tested already as Z2705+, and it seems this Albanian 392=11 as Y33200+. I guess this Romanian from Yfull also has 392=11.
    I guess you guys still have trouble interpreting phylogenetic trees ;) YF13874 is is not placed under R-Z2705* at YFull, which would mean negative for downstream Y33200. His placement right underneath R-Z2705, and not an actual R-Z2705*, means he is either forming a new subclade with YF06331 PRT, or he has no call for downstream Y33200. I would guess the latter is the likeliest scenario, because as I explained at Foleja, Y33200 is not well read by the BigY, so some will have no call (unknown status). It's possible he is indeed Y33200- as he has DYS549=14 like YF06082 and YF06331 like you pointed out, but no way to know based on his current placement at YFull. Anyways, he should probably check Y33200 at YSEQ, as he appears to have a no call on his BigY.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Also to add there is a sample of 97 Bulgarians from "Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma" study which has 8 L23+, including 2 BY611's
    BM066 Bulgaria BUG General population 13 23 14 11 11 11 12 12 13 13 13 29 15 15 20 11 15 12 23 R-L23
    BM098 Bulgaria BUG General population 13 24 14 11 11 11 12 12 12 14 14 28 16 15 19 11 15 12 23 R-L23

    Actually I just noticed this BM066 has dys390=23!That value is only shared by this American Y23373* (Z2705-), but he has 393=13. :) 448=20, maybe Y33200-.
    Second Bulgarian from this study has dys392=14 + dys389=14-14 (28). For example L277 has as modal dys392=14, but their modal on dys389 is 13-15. There is one Bulgarian L277 N81217 but he has dys385=10-15 and no relation to this one, ofc this one has importantly 11-11. Plus 393=13, no way he is anything other than BY611. A good candidate for Y33200-.
    Since the first sample has DYS393=13 (instead of 12), it's highly unlikely he would be Y23373* like the American (YF06082). IMO, he is most probably Z2705+ and Y33200+.
    The second sample could possibly be Z2705* or be negative some SNPs at that level. This is of course assuming he is even BY611+ and not some L51.

    Actually, according to FTDNA, there should already be a split in the Z2705 subclade in the Balkans. A person with Greek sounding surname, should be negative for at least Y32147 and Y33199 which are currently at YFull's Z2705 level. It would be nice if this person uploads to YFull and this split is confirmed, but it appears he has been unresponsive. We don't know his STRs either, as it seems he hasn't joined any FTDNA projects. Of course, we thought DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 could represent this split, but as you know an Albanian with this haplotype was recently confirmed Y33200+. So, this is how the phylogenetic tree should look like if this split is confirmed:






    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I talk about the original proto-community in which certain language might have developed. For Greek those were likely older clades of Z2103, especially the likes of KMS67, knowing that from a large sample rafc once posted significant percentage of Greek Z2103+ was CTS7822- (22.5 % of Greek R1b), and obviously few Greeks have been SNP tested but KMS67 has already been found and looking at STR values from studies there are plenty of others. Of course few are L277 etc..
    I have seen among Greeks also sings that Y5592 are going to be found, and that Vucedol sample was Y5592*.
    Do you know something I don't here? If this is in regards to sample I3499 from BA Vucedol, he in fact has no call (unknown status) for Y5592. His sequence is such a low quality. All I got from him was Z2105+ PF331- CTS9219- L584- and many no calls for informative SNPs downstream of Z2103, including Y5592 (I didn't check all possible SNPs as it was too time consuming). I believe Genetiker only classified him as R1b~Z2103 also.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Interesting to see results of this Romanian. I bet he is YF08832 from YFull considering few people have been tested there (I know of only about 100 ethnic Romanians which includes 9 Moldovans), also that in Romania one only finds these haplotypes and finally that Albanian dys392=11 is apparently Y33200+. I guess this Romanian from Yfull also has 392=11.
    This Romanian from YFull used to be a member of our project. He has a pretty "standard" Y33200 haplotype. From what I remember, he said he originates from southern Serbia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I guess you guys still have trouble interpreting phylogenetic trees ;) YF13874 is is not placed under R-Z2705* at YFull, which would mean negative for downstream Y33200. His placement right underneath R-Z2705, and not an actual R-Z2705*, means he is either forming a new subclade with YF06331 PRT, or he has no call for downstream Y33200. I would guess the latter is the likeliest scenario, because as I explained at Foleja, Y33200 is not well read by the BigY, so some will have no call (unknown status). It's possible he is indeed Y33200- as he has DYS549=14 like YF06082 and YF06331 like you pointed out, but no way to know based on his current placement at YFull. Anyways, he should probably check Y33200 at YSEQ, as he appears to have a no call on his BigY.

    This Romanian from YFull used to be a member of our project. He has a pretty "standard" Y33200 haplotype. From what I remember, he said he originates from southern Serbia.
    You are right about YF13874. When there is a problem to place a result on the phylogenetic tree Yfull put it between last known common SNP and those with *.
    It can be seen also with PH908 results where this SNP is not covered by Big Y, all of them are between I-S17250 and I-S17250*
    Maybe in future Yfull will change it in cooperation with Yseq, so people who confirm their SNP at Yseq will be placed on the right position on Ytree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    Interesting to see results of this Romanian. I bet he is YF08832 from YFull considering few people have been tested there (I know of only about 100 ethnic Romanians which includes 9 Moldovans), also that in Romania one only finds these haplotypes and finally that Albanian dys392=11 is apparently Y33200+.
    Romanian from Ysearh was tested at SMFG
    Romanian which result is at Yfull tree was tested at FTDna and have ordinary haplotype, I have also been informed that his paternal line is from Serbia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post


    Actually, according to FTDNA, there should already be a split in the Z2705 subclade in the Balkans. A person with Greek soundingsurname, should be negative for at least Y32147 and Y33199 which are currently at YFull's Z2705 level. It would be nice if this person uploads to YFull and this split is confirmed, but it appears he has been unresponsive. We don't know his STRs either, as it seems he hasn't joined any FTDNA projects. Of course, we thought DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 could represent this split, but as you know an Albanian with this haplotype was recently confirmed Y33200+. So, this is how the phylogenetic tree should look like if this split is confirmed:


    .
    Someone can accuse me of data mining and sharing results without permission. Anyway, I think that I have str markers of the tested person, but do not know anything about him and his paternal line, except that he is probably of Greek origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    Someone can accuse me of data mining and sharing results without permission. Anyway, I think that I have str markers of the tested person, but do not know anything about him and his paternal line, except that he is probably of Greek origin.
    You gave me a great hint, just like I did with the tree I posted. I found them ;)

    He indeed does have DYS393=12 (instead of modal 13), DYS392=11 (instead of modal 13), and DYS459=8-9 (instead of the modal 8-10). So this haplotype should be in between YF06082 USA and YF06331 PRT and define the split I posted above, unless the same mutations happened downstream of Z2705,Y32149>Y32147,Y33200 which I think it's highly unlikely. The Albanian who came out Y33200+ has precisely this haplotype, and I see they are ~ GD 4/37. This raises the possibility that due to Y33200 not being well read by the BigY, YF06331 PRT may have a false negative, and therefore Y33200 would not be placed correctly at YFull and should be placed at the R-Z2705 level, which would mean it could be as old as 2600 ybp (formed age of R-Z2705). I suspected this when the Albanian with this exact haplotype came out Y33200+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    You gave me a great hint, just like I did with the tree I posted. I found them ;)

    He indeed does have DYS393=12 (instead of modal 13) and DYS392=11 (instead of modal 13), and DYS459=8-9 (instead of the modal 8-10). The Albanian who came out Y33200+ has precisely this haplotype, and I see they are GD 4/37. This raises the possibility that due to Y33200 not being well read by the BigY, YF06331 PRT may have a false negative, and therefore Y33200 is not placed correctly at YFull and perhaps should be placed at R-Z2705 level, which would mean it could be as old as 2600 ybp (formed age of R-Z2705). I suspected the same thing when the Albanian with this haplotype came out Y33200+
    Yes, he is a member of Greek/Arcadia project.
    FTDna has labelled him only as R-Y32149 which is in the same level as R-Z2705.
    You have described one of the possibility.
    Personally, I am very sceptical about the reliability of Big Y, especially for TMRCA calculations, there are many regions it does not cover or have low or no reads. We will probably need more WGS results with good coverage to revise the Ytree.

    I hope you will be able to contact and persuade the tested person to order analysis at Yfull or just to send VCF file to one of R1b administrators for the free analysis.

    I know (online) someone who has tested Bulgarian DYS393=12 DYS392=11 (12 STR markers), I had recommended him PH544 or Big Y as further tests for his relative. He ordered PH544 and got positive results. I think they might be willing to order Big Y or WGS.

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