Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

Yes they do, and they seem distant. However, quite some diversity within PH2967 cluster among Albanians and we literally know very little about the J2b2 among Tosks, the Albanians who I suppose could have influenced them. We just recently got two samples from Mat who actually tested as Z1296+ Z1297- PH3120- PH1751-, who obviously represent a earlier split from the Mirdita samples (perhaps bronze age).

Well actually Tosks from the Arberesh study show some peculiarities, of 12 Tosk J2b2 there only 3 are dys19=14, which is an opposite tendency in comparison to Ghegs. None of those are of this Dukasi variety. I saw one Greek (23 STR's) and a Pole from Gdansk with these values. Until some of these appear among commercially tested, as I did with dys392=11, you connect different STR's from these studies to reach 29 STR's for this haplotype overall.


You shouldn't rely on few low res scientific study samples or base your hypothesis on them. We absolutely know nothing about them nor can we confirm that they are actually BY611 and not some sort of convergence. Fact remains Bulgarian project has over 800 testes and only about 6 or 7 of them are R1b-BY611 (3 or four of them from Macedonia) - and not even one with DYS392=11. No reason to cross borders and wander off when there is plenty of BY611 within Albania of their variety (393=12, 392=11).

First time I saw BY611's I thought of them as likely local/Illyrian. Then only after noticing dys392=11 and some L23's dys392=11 from Bulgaria I moved more to the "Eastern camp". It's true that these have not yet appeared in Bulgaria but that is true for some other Bulgarian L23's from that study (dys448=21) so the only thing we can do is wait. This way it's impossible to confirm they are BY611, even though that is likely, think about it, how common is dys392=11 in R1b, and also these are SNP L23+ so Z2103, and among Z2103's who has dys392=11 other than this Z2705 haplotype?

I'm aware some of those Bulgarian (especially Macedonian dys393=13) might turn out to be of Albanian origin.

Also there no reason to believe that BY611 has an eastern connection, when all the Z2705 upstream branches representing the earlier splits come from Italy, Spain and then England. That's the other fact or sort of the elephant in the room that we can't push aside.

Well, I was also counting on dys392=11 being negative to Z2705 and possibly connected to some of these older clades, but that turned out not to be the case. Also there are distant cousins of BY611 in the East in the form of Y5587 and BY250, but true, they are very distant.
I agree that the presence of older clades in the West is something that might turn out to be important. I also thought, as far more Westerners are tested, that some of these older clades will eventually appear among balkan ethnicities. If they don't, and that's quite possible, that might also have significant influence on BY611's distant origins.


No, he is not. The new yfull sample is kit 301843 (393=13, 392=13) and he too shares the 1300ybp TMRCA with the rest of us.

I see, well that does indicate dys392=11 is also Z2705* as there is already this Portuguese with usual (393=13, 392=13) values.
 
Do you have a source for the halpogroups of Vlachs I would like to see them. Not suspicious just curious.

Sure , https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x

You have some 19 STR's but not on YFiler/Yfiler Plus, but as I do one can look for similar neighboring haplotypes which have additional markers to get more information.

As still only few Aromanians have been tested on ftdna this study is the best insight into their genetic makeup. 5 groups were tested, 2 from Albania, 2 from Macedonia, and one from Romania who are a mixture of these groups as they migrated there later. But in this group for example 2 of very rare C-V20's were found, and considering C-V20 was not present in Andon Poci/Dukasi/Krusevo/Stip populations it must have arrived there from some 5th Aromanian population.

Plus few haplotypes from this study are in wrong places, those were fixed on YHRD.
 
Well actually Tosks from the Arberesh study show some peculiarities, of 12 Tosk J2b2 there only 3 are dys19=14, which is an opposite tendency in comparison to Ghegs. None of those are of this Dukasi variety. I saw one Greek (23 STR's) and a Pole from Gdansk with these values. Until some of these appear among commercially tested, as I did with dys392=11, you connect different STR's from these studies to reach 29 STR's for this haplotype overall.

First time I saw BY611's I thought of them as likely local/Illyrian. Then only after noticing dys392=11 and some L23's dys392=11 from Bulgaria I moved more to the "Eastern camp". It's true that these have not yet appeared in Bulgaria but that is true for some other Bulgarian L23's from that study (dys448=21) so the only thing we can do is wait. This way it's impossible to confirm they are BY611, even though that is likely, think about it, how common is dys392=11 in R1b, and also these are SNP L23+ so Z2103, and among Z2103's who has dys392=11 other than this Z2705 haplotype?

I'm aware some of those Bulgarian (especially Macedonian dys393=13) might turn out to be of Albanian origin.

Well, I was also counting on dys392=11 being negative to Z2705 and possibly connected to some of these older clades, but that turned out not to be the case. Also there are distant cousins of BY611 in the East in the form of Y5587 and BY250, but true, they are very distant.
I agree that the presence of older clades in the West is something that might turn out to be important. I also thought, as far more Westerners are tested, that some of these older clades will eventually appear among balkan ethnicities. If they don't, and that's quite possible, that might also have significant influence on BY611's distant origins. I see, well that does indicate dys392=11 is also Z2705* as there is already this Portuguese with usual (393=13, 392=13) values.
The fact that neither BY611 or J2b2 samples were encountered among orther aromanian groups, specifically on those from Romania, is quite telling to my opinion. So no need to further stress this out. And even if those two or three 392=11 samples from the scientific studies end up on the Bulgarian project one of these days, wouldn’t change a thing. Because it’s pretty clear at this point where they radiated out from.

BY611, BY250 and Y5587 diversified during early Bronze Age and they are a lot more divers, especially the last two, in Central and Northern Europe. They also seem to have a descent presence in Southern Europe, specifically in Italy, Spain and Portugal (Y5587 though looks more like a Central-Eastern European thing). I do agree that those samples are very important actually, and from where I am looking at it, it does seem like Z2705 might be the only surviving lineage that penetrated western Balkans from further north, perhaps during Iron Age or even later. With time I guess we will be able to pin point its exact movements.

In the mean time however the most relevant sample as far as Z2705 is concerned for the Balkans is a Greek fella (Dematas) who seems to represent an earlier split from the rest of us within Z2705, and he might actually be the one carrying those unique values on 393=12 and 392=11, because he is not showing up on anyone’s STR matches - but unfortunately he hasn’t done a yfull analysis or responded to my emails yet.
 
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Well actually Tosks from the Arberesh study show some peculiarities, of 12 Tosk J2b2 there only 3 are dys19=14, which is an opposite tendency in comparison to Ghegs. None of those are of this Dukasi variety. I saw one Greek (23 STR's) and a Pole from Gdansk with these values. Until some of these appear among commercially tested, as I did with dys392=11, you connect different STR's from these studies to reach 29 STR's for this haplotype overall.
First time I saw BY611's I thought of them as likely local/Illyrian. Then only after noticing dys392=11 and some L23's dys392=11 from Bulgaria I moved more to the "Eastern camp". It's true that these have not yet appeared in Bulgaria but that is true for some other Bulgarian L23's from that study (dys448=21) so the only thing we can do is wait. This way it's impossible to confirm they are BY611, even though that is likely, think about it, how common is dys392=11 in R1b, and also these are SNP L23+ so Z2103, and among Z2103's who has dys392=11 other than this Z2705 haplotype?
I'm aware some of those Bulgarian (especially Macedonian dys393=13) might turn out to be of Albanian origin.
Well, I was also counting on dys392=11 being negative to Z2705 and possibly connected to some of these older clades, but that turned out not to be the case. Also there are distant cousins of BY611 in the East in the form of Y5587 and BY250, but true, they are very distant.
I agree that the presence of older clades in the West is something that might turn out to be important. I also thought, as far more Westerners are tested, that some of these older clades will eventually appear among balkan ethnicities. If they don't, and that's quite possible, that might also have significant influence on BY611's distant origins.
I see, well that does indicate dys392=11 is also Z2705* as there is already this Portuguese with usual (393=13, 392=13) values.
my guess would be that albania , macedonia, epirus would have eastern balkan influence especially since this latest 2018 paper placed the Italian apulia region as eastern balkans
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https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/handle/11375/22810
Abstract: Assessing population diversity in southern Italy has traditionally relied on archaeological and historic evidence. Although informative, these lines of evidence do not establish specific instances of within lifetime mobility, nor track population diversity over time. In order to investigate the population structure of ancient South Italy I sequenced the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 15 Iron Age (7th – 4th c. BCE) and 30 Roman period (1st – 4th c. BCE) individuals buried at Iron Age Botromagno and Roman period Vagnari, in southern Italy, and analyzed δ18O and 87Sr/86Sr values from a subset of the Vagnari skeletal assemblage. Phylogenetic analysis of 15 Iron Age mtDNAs together with 231 mtDNAs spanning European prehistory suggest that southern Italian Iapygians share close genetic affinities to Neolithic populations from eastern Europe and the Near East. Population pairwise analysis of Iron Age, Roman, and mtDNA datasets spanning the pan-Mediterranean region (n=357), indicate that Roman maternal genetic diversity is more similar to Neolithic and Bronze Age populations from central Europe and the eastern Mediterranean, respectively, than to Iron Age Italians. Genetic distance between population age categories imply moderate mtDNA turnover and constant population size during the Roman conquest of South Italy in the 3rd century BCE. In order to determine the local versus non-local demographic at Vagnari, I measured the 87Sr/86Sr and 18O/16O of composition of 43 molars, and the 87Sr/86Sr composition of an additional 13 molars, and constructed a preliminary 87Sr/86Sr variation map of the Italian peninsula using disparate 87Sr/86Sr datasets. The relationship between 87Sr/86Sr and previously published δ18O data suggest a relatively low proportion of migrants lived at Vagnari (7%). This research is the first to generate whole-mitochondrial DNA sequences from Iron Age and Roman period necropoleis, and demonstrates the ability to gain valuable information from the integration of aDNA, stable isotope, archaeological and historic evidence.
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Cetina culture on the Dalmatian coast would then be the most southern of western balkan ..........cetina formed around pannonia in the same area as vucedol culture
 
The fact that neither BY611 or J2b2 samples were encountered among orther aromanian groups, specifically those from Romania, is quite telling to my opinion. So no need to further stress this out. And even if those two or three 392=11 samples from the scientific studies end up on the Bulgarian project one of these days, wouldn’t change a thing. Because it’s pretty clear at this point where they radiated out from.

BY611, BY250 and Y5587 diversified during early Bronze Age and they are a lot more divers, especially the last two, in Central and Northern Europe. They also seem to have a descent presence in Southern Europe, specifically in Italy, Spain and Portugal (Y5587 though looks more like a Central-Eastern European thing). I do agree that those samples are very important actually, and from where I am looking at it, it does seem like Z2705 might be the only surviving lineage that penetrated western Balkans from further north, perhaps during Iron Age or even later. With time I guess we will be able to pin point its exact movements.

TMRCA of the entire BY611 is not big, 3300 ypb so it might have been part of Hallstat (which had significant influence on formation of Illyrians) and some of these clades like Y30192 might have simply migrated there without having been in the Balkans.
Some Z2103 were found in Bell Beakers so I wouldn't exclude possibility of BY611 straying off the path of it's cousins.

Or it might have been dormant in the East alongside it's distant relatives, depending what more detailed tests show up eventually from yet unanalyzed haplotypes.

You might push for Western origin but your Bulgarian/Romanian cousins would likely do the opposite. :)

I remember there used to be one Croat on poreklo with dys393=12 (from ftdna ??), also I saw one Eastern Croatian R1b with dys385=11-11, dys393=12, dys392=15, dys390=25
122 1 0,45 12 25 14 10 11,11 12 13 15 29 16,2 15 19 11 15 12 23

From study of Croatia (1100 haplotypes), all others are usual Y33200 looking haplotypes.


Meanwhile I've found more of these dys392=11 from an unexpected source. There was a new study "Genetics in Macedonia-Following the international trends" involving Macedonians, Albanians and Turks from Macedonia, so recently additional Macedonian haplotypes were added to YHRD, most likely from this study.

12 24 14 11 11-11 12 13 11 29 16 15 19 10 15 12 23 Macedonia [Turkish] 1 matches of 109
12 24 14 10 11-11 12 13 11 29 16 15 19 10 15 12 23 Macedonia [Turkish] 2 matches of 109
12 24 15 11 11-11 12 13 11 29 16 15 19 10 15 12 23 Macedonia [Turkish] 2 matches of 109

So 5 of BY611 dys392=11 in Turks from Macedonia, that's interesting.. 4.6 % in Macedonian Turks of these.. To be fair though it seems there were 11 of classic dys393=13 BY611's. So the percentage of BY611 among Macedonian Turks (14.7 %) rivals that of Albanians. I haven't looked into other Albanian hg's among Macedonian Turks, I remember one E-BY4461 among them too. You might search for more, you can get any haplotype from YHRD but it requires trial & error approach.


In the mean time however the most relevant sample as far as Z2705 is concerned for the Balkans is a Greek fella (Dematas) who seems to represent an earlier split from the rest of us within Z2705, and he might actually be the one carrying those unique values on 393=12 and 392=11, because he is not showing up on anyone’s STR matches - but unfortunately he hasn’t done a yfull analysis or responded to my emails yet.

I see, until you make some contact with him well you also have an Albanian guy with dys392=11 now and he might test some of individual SNP's that are on Z2705 level (such as PH2535, Y32150, Y32148 etc.) and he might show some negative results.
 
my guess would be that albania , macedonia, epirus would have eastern balkan influence especially since this latest 2018 paper placed the Italian apulia region as eastern balkans
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https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/handle/11375/22810
Abstract: Assessing population diversity in southern Italy has traditionally relied on archaeological and historic evidence.

Interesting, I'd have to read that paper. Links between Apulia and Balkans have been suggested many times by many people.

Cetina culture on the Dalmatian coast would then be the most southern of western balkan ..........cetina formed around pannonia in the same area as vucedol culture

Cetina had some southern outposts in modern day Albania as did Dinara/Posusje culture (J-L283 mostly).
 
my guess would be that albania , macedonia, epirus would have eastern balkan influence especially since this latest 2018 paper placed the Italian apulia region as eastern balkans
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https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/handle/11375/22810
Abstract: Assessing population diversity in southern Italy has traditionally relied on archaeological and historic evidence. Although informative, these lines of evidence do not establish specific instances of within lifetime mobility, nor track population diversity over time. In order to investigate the population structure of ancient South Italy I sequenced the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 15 Iron Age (7th – 4th c. BCE) and 30 Roman period (1st – 4th c. BCE) individuals buried at Iron Age Botromagno and Roman period Vagnari, in southern Italy, and analyzed δ18O and 87Sr/86Sr values from a subset of the Vagnari skeletal assemblage. Phylogenetic analysis of 15 Iron Age mtDNAs together with 231 mtDNAs spanning European prehistory suggest that southern Italian Iapygians share close genetic affinities to Neolithic populations from eastern Europe and the Near East. Population pairwise analysis of Iron Age, Roman, and mtDNA datasets spanning the pan-Mediterranean region (n=357), indicate that Roman maternal genetic diversity is more similar to Neolithic and Bronze Age populations from central Europe and the eastern Mediterranean, respectively, than to Iron Age Italians. Genetic distance between population age categories imply moderate mtDNA turnover and constant population size during the Roman conquest of South Italy in the 3rd century BCE. In order to determine the local versus non-local demographic at Vagnari, I measured the 87Sr/86Sr and 18O/16O of composition of 43 molars, and the 87Sr/86Sr composition of an additional 13 molars, and constructed a preliminary 87Sr/86Sr variation map of the Italian peninsula using disparate 87Sr/86Sr datasets. The relationship between 87Sr/86Sr and previously published δ18O data suggest a relatively low proportion of migrants lived at Vagnari (7%). This research is the first to generate whole-mitochondrial DNA sequences from Iron Age and Roman period necropoleis, and demonstrates the ability to gain valuable information from the integration of aDNA, stable isotope, archaeological and historic evidence.
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Cetina culture on the Dalmatian coast would then be the most southern of western balkan ..........cetina formed around pannonia in the same area as vucedol culture

You keep quoting this study but it is about mtDNA. We are discussing the male lines here, which are the most telling of Indo-european movements.
 
You keep quoting this study but it is about mtDNA. We are discussing the male lines here, which are the most telling of Indo-european movements.

where there is women there are men....where there is mtdna there is ydna
 
This is a nice discussion so I'd like to summarize and clarify a few things in relation to the diversity and origin of BY611.

Aspurg is arguing that atypical BY611 (DYS392=11) is eastern, and so the whole BY611 should be eastern in origin.

Let's look at all the cases that have been mentioned so far (let me know if I have forgotten any):
7 Aromanians from South Albania
7 Albanian Ghegs
1 Albanian Tosk
4 Greeks (Athens, Macedonia, unspecified, Dematas)
1 Italian from Sicily
4 Turks from Macedonia

Other possible ones that Aspurg claims to remember but who still need to be appear in our records and then be verified as BY611:
3 Bulgarians
2 Romanians
2 Croats

So geographically speaking we have 16 atypical BY611 in the western part, 5 in the center (Greek and Slavic Macedonias) and 2 unknowns from Greece. If we add the samples mentioned by Aspurg we have 18 in the west, 5 in the center and 5 in the east.

Ethnically speaking, we have 8 who are Albanian, 5 Bulgarian/Romanian claimed by Aspurg, and 9 more who are neither but for all of them it seems more of a stretch to prove a Bulgarian connection than an Albanian one (all of them come from areas with Albanian presence - Andon Poci, Sicily, Athens, Turks in Macedonia).
 
TMRCA of the entire BY611 is not big, 3300 ypb so it might have been part of Hallstat (which had significant influence on formation of Illyrians) and some of these clades like Y30192 might have simply migrated there without having been in the Balkans.
Some Z2103 were found in Bell Beakers so I wouldn't exclude possibility of BY611 straying off the path of it's cousins.

Or it might have been dormant in the East alongside it's distant relatives, depending what more detailed tests show up eventually from yet unanalyzed haplotypes.

You might push for Western origin but your Bulgarian/Romanian cousins would likely do the opposite. :)

I remember there used to be one Croat on poreklo with dys393=12 (from ftdna ??), also I saw one Eastern Croatian R1b with dys385=11-11, dys393=12, dys392=15, dys390=25
122 1 0,45 12 25 14 10 11,11 12 13 15 29 16,2 15 19 11 15 12 23

From study of Croatia (1100 haplotypes), all others are usual Y33200 looking haplotypes.


Meanwhile I've found more of these dys392=11 from an unexpected source. There was a new study "Genetics in Macedonia-Following the international trends" involving Macedonians, Albanians and Turks from Macedonia, so recently additional Macedonian haplotypes were added to YHRD, most likely from this study.

12 24 14 11 11-11 12 13 11 29 16 15 19 10 15 12 23 Macedonia [Turkish] 1 matches of 109
12 24 14 10 11-11 12 13 11 29 16 15 19 10 15 12 23 Macedonia [Turkish] 2 matches of 109
12 24 15 11 11-11 12 13 11 29 16 15 19 10 15 12 23 Macedonia [Turkish] 2 matches of 109

So 5 of BY611 dys392=11 in Turks from Macedonia, that's interesting.. 4.6 % in Macedonian Turks of these.. To be fair though it seems there were 11 of classic dys393=13 BY611's. So the percentage of BY611 among Macedonian Turks (14.7 %) rivals that of Albanians. I haven't looked into other Albanian hg's among Macedonian Turks, I remember one E-BY4461 among them too. You might search for more, you can get any haplotype from YHRD but it requires trial & error approach.

I see, until you make some contact with him well you also have an Albanian guy with dys392=11 now and he might test some of individual SNP's that are on Z2705 level (such as PH2535, Y32150, Y32148 etc.) and he might show some negative results.

Quite possible, that's my sort of thinking for now. However, the Y30192 fella (yfull ID YF08067) has mentioned on Anthrogenica that he might be of Arbereshe ancestry lol. He is also part of our project, so we should keep that in mind.

Also I can't stress this enough that we have to be really cautious when labeling those low res STR results from scientific studies as BY611. R1b generally speaking suffers heavy from convergence. There are quite few other subclades with the 385=11-11 combo under L21 and even BY250 that appear to be really closely related to us but obviously belong to different groups. I match some of them even 35 out of 37 and 62 out of 67, so really closely and they definitely seem like genealogical matches. Hence why SNP confirmation is crucial for some of these groups. Plus, there are other subclades that carry 392=11, it's not just Z2705. Here is a perfect example to illustrate that for you, Albanian from Dibra that doesn't have the 385 combo but shares those exact values on other markers (393=12, 392=11) but obviously is not BY611:

1224151111-14121212121129179-911112515193015-15-15-15101219-2515191736-361212


The Turkish fellas from Macedonia are certainly with Albanian background, they were even incentivesed back in the good old days by the yugo government to declare themselves as such. Some did it to move to Turkey during the Turkish-Yugo agreement too but still ended up living in Macedonia, and never changed their status. I am actually matching one of them that has tested on Family Tree DNA and did speak to him a while back (last name Share). He din't give me much detail, but he specifically noted that he is from Shkup, Macedonia and is Albanian, Turkish. So not sure what he meant by the "Albanian, Turkish", but obviously judging by his results he is paternally Albanian.

Yes, we are already working on him. Currently testing him for Y33200 and after that we will probably get him to go for the BigY.
 
This is a nice discussion so I'd like to summarize and clarify a few things in relation to the diversity and origin of BY611.

Aspurg is arguing that atypical BY611 (DYS392=11) is eastern, and so the whole BY611 should be eastern in origin.

Let's look at all the cases that have been mentioned so far (let me know if I have forgotten any):
7 Aromanians from South Albania
7 Albanian Ghegs
1 Albanian Tosk
4 Greeks (Athens, Macedonia, unspecified, Dematas)
1 Italian from Sicily
4 Turks from Macedonia

Other possible ones that Aspurg claims to remember but who still need to be appear in our records and then be verified as BY611:
3 Bulgarians
2 Romanians
2 Croats

So geographically speaking we have 16 atypical BY611 in the western part, 5 in the center (Greek and Slavic Macedonias) and 2 unknowns from Greece. If we add the samples mentioned by Aspurg we have 18 in the west, 5 in the center and 5 in the east.

Ethnically speaking, we have 8 who are Albanian, 5 Bulgarian/Romanian claimed by Aspurg, and 9 more who are neither but for all of them it seems more of a stretch to prove a Bulgarian connection than an Albanian one (all of them come from areas with Albanian presence - Andon Poci, Sicily, Athens, Turks in Macedonia).

There is a Serb too, who actually has been confirmed as Z2705+, Ignjatovic. For the rest I would be cautious to label them us such without any SNP testing, even though they are probably BY611 (except perhaps the example from Montana and others with DYS19=15). As for Dematas, he has done the BigY but we don't know what his halpotype looks like (I was only speculating that he might have those atypical values since he is above us).
 
Quite possible, that's my sort of thinking for now. However, the Y30192 fella (yfull ID YF08067) has mentioned on Anthrogenica that he might be of Arbereshe ancestry lol. He is also part of our project, so we should keep that in mind.

Well he might be of Arberesh ancestry if there is clear documentary evidence (not the case obviously from his words) or if Y30192 if found in Albanians, which is not likely.

Also I can't stress this enough that we have to be really cautious when labeling those low res STR results from scientific studies as BY611. R1b generally speaking suffers heavy from convergence. There are quite few other subclades with the 385=11-11 combo under L21 and even BY250 that appear to be really closely related to us but obviously belong to different groups. I match some of them even 35 out of 37 and 62 out of 67, so really closely and they definitely seem like genealogical matches. Hence why SNP confirmation is crucial for some of these groups. Plus, there are other subclades that carry 392=11, it's not just Z2705. Here is a perfect example to illustrate that for you, Albanian from Dibra that doesn't have the 385 combo but shares those exact values on other markers (393=12, 392=11) but obviously is not BY611:

1224151111-14121212121129179-911112515193015-15-15-15101219-2515191736-361212

I agree, I remember when this guy first appeared I had to suggest him an SNP for BY611, because I knew there were few BY250's with 11-11 and I couldn't guarantee he's BY611. Yes ofc among western R1b's there are various 11-11's.
That haplotype is very difficult to classify or predict. Even when one disregards his 392=11. He might turn out to be a clade yet found like those Albanian E-Z5018*.

The Turkish fellas from Macedonia are certainly with Albanian background, they were even incentivesed back in the good old days by the yugo government to declare themselves as such. Some did it to move to Turkey during the Turkish-Yugo agreement too but still ended up living in Macedonia, and never changed their status. I am actually matching one of them that has tested on Family Tree DNA and did speak to him a while back (last name Share). He din't give me much detail, but he specifically noted that he is from Shkup, Macedonia and is Albanian, Turkish. So not sure what he meant by the "Albanian, Turkish", but obviously judging by his results he is paternally Albanian.

Obviously Turks from Macedonia do have significant Albanian ancestry unlike Turks from Bulgaria. Recently I was looking at one Turk who lives in Armenia, and he's E-L241 closely related to one Albanian (389=13-29), I found his family did have some tradition of "Arnaunt" origins. I noticed some Slavic influence as well. Also alongside Turks, some Albanian Macedonian hyplotypes were also released and they don't have this haplotype (they have usual BY611's).

Yes, we are already working on him. Currently testing him for Y33200 and after that we will probably get him to go for the BigY.

That's great, and actually there is a Bulgarian BY611 on ftdna with dys392=11, dys393=12. If he too proceeds with deeper tests we might have relatively soon some idea as to when they have separated.
 
The reason , why we have I2a2 along Adriatic either in Italian part, it's due to Venetian, Ragusian and other late middle age republics in Adriatic shores. Slavs were part of these republics. They assimilated the romance populace there.
 
According to ancient authors, Dardan was mentioned among others as son of Illyros, the founder of Illyrians. The Greek myth. At least during the classical era, Dardanians were Illyrian
 
real question about Albanians is their relation with Dardanians and Illyrians...

and while I am prone to believe that there is relation between Albaninans and Dardanians.....possibility for relation of Albanians to Illyrians is still kind of mistery....

also real extent of Illyrians is mystery.... especially condsidering that Slavs were by Jordanes described as race of Veneti thus Venetic people, and that Pannoni tribes (one of them that inhabited Plitvice lakes complex was carrying clearly Slavic tribal name Oseriates which is translatable as 'lake people') were called Illyrian tribes only based on fact that they lived in Roman province of Illyria....

basically, key question is whether Illyrians were E-V13 dominant or I2a2 dominant....

arguments for E-V13:
1) high variation in Dalmatia....
2) Steven Byrd claims that E-V13 in Britain is due to Roman soldiers from Balkan (I do not really believe this but it does make some sense). But there is no I2a2-Dinaric in Britain....

arguments for I2a2:
1) in Dalmatia is high frequency of I2a2,
2) low frequency of E-V13,
3) there is I2a2 spread along Adriatic in Italy.... and Illyrians settlement there are recorded in history while there were no massive Slavic settlements there...
4)Illyrians are described as tall people, with their tribes known just for long wars among themselves....
Albanians are in average shorter mediteranean people who never had real wars between themselves...
while south Slavs are in average taller people, and have history of wars among their tribes....

The reason , why we have I2a2 along Adriatic either in Italian part, it's due to Venetian, Ragusian and other late middle age republics in Adriatic shores. Slavs were part of these republics. They assimilated the romance populace there.
 
copied from topic about Macedonians...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26187&page=20



Epirus was whole central and south Albania

200px-Epirus_%26_modern_borders.jpg



whole point is that Albanisation of Epirotes happened with Byzantium becoming weak...in 14th century...Arbanians spread to Epirus from mountains
as Byzantium was weak... look at years... they coincide with spread of Serbian state towards south...

13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png


Tosks have significant I2a2 and J2, but Arbereshe who origin from Albanians who settled Italy upon arrival of Ottomans do not have much of those haplogroups... which indicates that in 15th century assimilation is still not complete and I2a2 and J2 people in central and south Albania are not counting themselves as Albanians...



http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

this is clear genetic proof that I2a2 and J2b people among Tosks are albanized Epirotes


I do not believe this... please quote source...

if it is correct, than it means that Illyrians are probably not related to Albanians, but are I2a2 or J2b people...
which leaves Dardanians as key and only cultural ancestor of Arbanians (now called Albanians)

According to ancient authors, Dardan was mentioned among others as son of Illyros, the founder of Illyrians. The Greek myth. At least during the classical era, Dardanians were Illyrian

hrmQ1gW.jpgd
 
The reason , why we have I2a2 along Adriatic either in Italian part, it's due to Venetian, Ragusian and other late middle age republics in Adriatic shores. Slavs were part of these republics. They assimilated the romance populace there.
Some people, you included, need to learn to read before commenting!!!


Slavs in the Balkans have close to 0% I2a2:

Haplogroup-I2b.gif


You quoting 7 years old post of that idiot "how yes no 2" makes this thread even more comical.
 
Sorry, my mistake. I think it was Arberesh people in a Italian city which scored 10% G2a not Tosks overall.

Anyway, why is a Finn so concerned about Albanian genetics? I see most of your posts is about us.

If it was about the Arberesh, then it is even more important, because Arberesh of Italy are mostly Tosks with less Slavic Y-dna
 

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