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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post




    Sure there is evidence, STR dating and diversity analysis, which points to a first millennium CE spread of I2a-Din-S, and indicates that I2a-Din-N is older. That places the center of diversity close to Belarus, not the Balkans, as we would expect if the Illyrians were the initial carriers. This is pretty well established among people who have analyzed Haplogroup I STR data. Ken Nordtvedt likes a first millennium spread via the Slavs, which seems reasonable to me. Try to do some research instead of assuming that we are using "fantasy thinking and logic."



    Go ahead and make your point instead of expecting me to make it for you, because I don't know what you're getting at. The Balkans don't seem to be a special case of geographic isolation.
    If you understand biological evolution you understand that there is no "special case for geographic isolation." Geographic isolation leads to disruption of gene flow. It is a large claim to suggest that I2a-Dinaric arrived in first millennium AD. It's even a larger claim because there is no evidence for it.

    Now lets try to understand something, if you have trouble understanding evolutionary biology.

    In the case of Albanians.

    Kosovo is a geographically isolated area. It has a high percentage of E1b1b, which reduces in frequency as one travels north. There seems to be evidence that this population sprung from a foundry effect at around 525AD. This makes sense because of the frequency gradient of E1b1b is very large and thus it is justified to conclude, per STS diversity and frequency, that this population occurred from foundry effect. If the gradient was much less, and covered a wider area of land, we would be less justified in the foundry effect of E1b1b in the Balkans.

    The frequency gradient of I2a2 in the Balkans is very large and covers a large area. Due to its geographic isolation, with the Alps on one side, and the Adriatic on the other, one should not assume gene flow from the 1st millenium CE was the cause of the frequency. There is no evidence to support this. Someone who believes this hypothesis either doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology or has an agenda. I really don't understand how someone could come up with this belief. A large gradient over a large area does not indicate a foundry population, but continuous gene flow between the populations over large time frames(a thousand years isn't large in evolutionary biology).

    The fact that the Romans left very little genetic footprint in the Balkans agrees with my hypothesis. That the geographic barrier to gene flow prevented much of it from occurring. The Turks, having stayed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, show very little gene flow to the Balkans.

    It is delusional to think that in the 1st millennium AD that an army, without any historical documentation swept through the Balkans and took over the indigenous people. Your claim requres a burden of proof that you have yet to show and it's intellectually dishonest to repeat something that is so absurd until you provide evidence for your claims.

    I further believe you understand very little evolutionary biology and you lack the understanding to know that frequency and the amount of given satellites can manipulate data to arrive at any conclusion. You probably also do not understand that these are models and not facts and that they are certainly prone to error that otherwise any human would not assume. The models also do not take into account geography, which every evolutionary biologist would understand is perhaps the most important barrier for gene flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    If you understand biological evolution you understand that there is no "special case for geographic isolation." Geographic isolation leads to disruption of gene flow. It is a large claim to suggest that I2a-Dinaric arrived in first millennium AD. It's even a larger claim because there is no evidence for it.
    Of course it leads to a disruption of gene flow, what's your point? That it's so impenetrable that migrations couldn't have happened so quickly? Don't forget that Y-DNA is a biased marker that tends to magnify effects of migration.

    And like I said, there is evidence for it, I don't know why you keep denying it. Ken Nordtvedt and Vadim Verenich are a couple of STR analyzers who have looked particularly closely at the clade. There have been studies as well, like I recall Eupedia poster "how yes no" posting some diversity maps of the clade that show that it peaks well outside of the Balkans. Quoting Nordtvedt:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nordtvedt
    I2a2a-Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than 2000 years ago.

    Now to figure out from where the expansion began? The traditional Slavic "homeland" of the Pripet marshes is as good a guess as anything for me at the moment.
    At a TMRCA of 2500 for the entire clade (S cluster being even younger), if it is Illyrian, that places the Illyrians as much later arrivals in the Balkans than expected, so late that it's a safer bet to say that it's not Illyrian at all and instead expanded out of somewhere else, probably near Belarus based on the diversity analyses I've mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Now lets try to understand something, if you have trouble understanding evolutionary biology.
    Attack the message, not the messenger... I'm warning you as a mod, not because you're arguing against me, specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    The frequency gradient of I2a2 in the Balkans is very large and covers a large area. Due to its geographic isolation, with the Alps on one side, and the Adriatic on the other, one should not assume gene flow from the 1st millenium CE was the cause of the frequency. There is no evidence to support this. Someone who believes this hypothesis either doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology or has an agenda. I really don't understand how someone could come up with this belief. A large gradient over a large area does not indicate a foundry population, but continuous gene flow between the populations over large time frames(a thousand years isn't large in evolutionary biology).
    How do you explain the modern distribution and diversity patterns if it originated in the Balkans? You run into the same supposed problems going the other way. The Balkans are isolated, but not as isolated as you imply.

    It's not a large gradient anyway, only two major clusters seem to have expanded from a tiny population that only lived between something like 2000 and 2500 years ago. Looks like a quick expansion to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    The fact that the Romans left very little genetic footprint in the Balkans agrees with my hypothesis.
    Not really. Does the relative lack of Roman genes in England prove that there was no impact from the Anglo-Saxon invasion? Expansion of R1b-U106 in England is fairly comparable to expansion of I2a-Din in the Balkans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    It is delusional to think that in the 1st millennium AD that an army, without any historical documentation swept through the Balkans and took over the indigenous people. Your claim requres a burden of proof that you have yet to show and it's intellectually dishonest to repeat something that is so absurd until you provide evidence for your claims.
    Except that's not my claim... I'm only saying that there was probably Y-DNA gene flow from migrations, probably Slavic, into the Balkans in the first millennium CE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    I further believe you understand very little evolutionary biology and you lack the understanding to know that frequency and the amount of given satellites can manipulate data to arrive at any conclusion. You probably also do not understand that these are models and not facts and that they are certainly prone to error that otherwise any human would not assume. The models also do not take into account geography, which every evolutionary biologist would understand is perhaps the most important barrier for gene flow.
    I'd love to see the data you've gathered to come to all these fascinating conclusions about me.

    Quoting myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    You are getting at some very important points, and I encourage others to remember how imprecise things like Y-STR and geographic diversity analysis still are. But the knowledge of statistical fluctuations is out there already, as you point out yourself. Genetic drift, variable mutation rates, and strictly-genetic selection often do come up in hobbyist discussions. And if we're all wasting our time when we speculate, how were we able to predict Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup? We thought about the data we had, speculated, and more than half came up with the right answer. Obviously we need to keep everything you mention in mind and assume that things like date calculations still have large error bars. But just as obviously, genetic anthropology has already taught us a lot that we didn't know before. I suppose we just need to be more precise about what the possibility ranges are, instead of looking for single answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    Actually I think that it was the Slavs that brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, not the Sarmatians like Bodin thinks. I've outlined the data I need to be convinced of the Sarmatian theory in the Scythian/Sarmatian thread. Otherwise, I feel like the data is pointing toward the Slavs.

    And I wouldn't say that the Illyrians were mostly E, although I feel sure that they had a lot of E. Like I said, if we subtract the typical "South Slavic" admixture (I2a-Din and R1a mostly) from the Slavic-speaking Balkans, we get an Albanian-esque haplogroup distribution that was probably typical of the Illyrians... mainly a mix of R1b, E1b, and J2, with some important minorities like G2a. You're probably right that they had less E1b than Albanians, but I'm not going to attempt percentages because they're likely to be inaccurate without all the variables accounted for.
    what is your terminology of slavs? ....pure slavs from russian areas or other people that brought the slavic language into the balkans in the 6th century?

    If we say Albanians are original people of the south balkans, then as per ancient historians who called them molossians or epirotes then maybe they had R1b and got the E from the doric/dardanian ( modern kosovars). this is something to find.

    On another note, if Fenni found nearly 4% of H1 in albanian people ( not including the Roma ), then why is this H1 missing from Maciano's country numbers?
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    If you understand biological evolution you understand that there is no "special case for geographic isolation." Geographic isolation leads to disruption of gene flow. It is a large claim to suggest that I2a-Dinaric arrived in first millennium AD. It's even a larger claim because there is no evidence for it.

    Now lets try to understand something, if you have trouble understanding evolutionary biology.

    In the case of Albanians.

    Kosovo is a geographically isolated area. It has a high percentage of E1b1b, which reduces in frequency as one travels north. There seems to be evidence that this population sprung from a foundry effect at around 525AD. This makes sense because of the frequency gradient of E1b1b is very large and thus it is justified to conclude, per STS diversity and frequency, that this population occurred from foundry effect. If the gradient was much less, and covered a wider area of land, we would be less justified in the foundry effect of E1b1b in the Balkans.

    The frequency gradient of I2a2 in the Balkans is very large and covers a large area. Due to its geographic isolation, with the Alps on one side, and the Adriatic on the other, one should not assume gene flow from the 1st millenium CE was the cause of the frequency. There is no evidence to support this. Someone who believes this hypothesis either doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology or has an agenda. I really don't understand how someone could come up with this belief. A large gradient over a large area does not indicate a foundry population, but continuous gene flow between the populations over large time frames(a thousand years isn't large in evolutionary biology).

    The fact that the Romans left very little genetic footprint in the Balkans agrees with my hypothesis. That the geographic barrier to gene flow prevented much of it from occurring. The Turks, having stayed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, show very little gene flow to the Balkans.

    It is delusional to think that in the 1st millennium AD that an army, without any historical documentation swept through the Balkans and took over the indigenous people. Your claim requres a burden of proof that you have yet to show and it's intellectually dishonest to repeat something that is so absurd until you provide evidence for your claims.

    I further believe you understand very little evolutionary biology and you lack the understanding to know that frequency and the amount of given satellites can manipulate data to arrive at any conclusion. You probably also do not understand that these are models and not facts and that they are certainly prone to error that otherwise any human would not assume. The models also do not take into account geography, which every evolutionary biologist would understand is perhaps the most important barrier for gene flow.

    are you then saying that the large area in the Balkans for the I2a2 indicates a people that mixed easily du to their knowledge with each other, be it linguistic or .... Then if this is true and the slavic speaking people entered the balkans in the 6th century AD, would suggest the marker I2a2 is original to western balkans.
    This does to a degree contradict historians of the illyrian people in firstly opposing they where a seperate entity from each other and secondly opposing this E haplogroup as being an illyrian ( part ) one

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    pure slavs from russian areas
    What does "pure slavs" mean?
    And who determined "pure slavs" are from russian areas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    What does "pure slavs" mean?
    And who determined "pure slavs" are from russian areas?
    If the Romans did not know of Slavs but knew about sarmatians, then when these "Slavs" migrated to the balkans in the 6th century, where did they come from?
    I say "pure" slavs , because slovene, croat and serbian historians do not say they are slavs but say they speak a slavic tongue.
    Since the sarmatians where the ones that migrated into the balkans are they slavs and if so, why did no Roman historian recognise them as slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    what is your terminology of slavs? ....pure slavs from russian areas or other people that brought the slavic language into the balkans in the 6th century?
    Well, I suspect that they were a population that contained a major "pre-Slavic" element from the region around Belarus. The South Slavic languages, when compared to the North Slavic languages, might give us some clues here about that influence, if it exists. But Balts are probably more direct descendants of the proto-Balto-Slavs, anyway, so looking for "pureness" of certain Slavs might not be worthwhile.

    In short, I don't know... and we need to be careful with our terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    And like I said, there is evidence for it, I don't know why you keep denying it. Ken Nordtvedt and Vadim Verenich are a couple of STR analyzers who have looked particularly closely at the clade. There have been studies as well, like I recall Eupedia poster "how yes no" posting some diversity maps of the clade that show that it peaks well outside of the Balkans. Quoting Nordtvedt:



    At a TMRCA of 2500 for the entire clade (S cluster being even younger), if it is Illyrian, that places the Illyrians as much later arrivals in the Balkans than expected, so late that it's a safer bet to say that it's not Illyrian at all and instead expanded out of somewhere else, probably near Belarus based on the diversity analyses I've mentioned.
    That's not evidence, it's speculation, hypothesis and i believe it's totally bogus.

    The 2500 year age of the clade is also speculation, based on models, which are more often than not, again, bogus.

    How do you explain the modern distribution and diversity patterns if it originated in the Balkans? You run into the same supposed problems going the other way. The Balkans are isolated, but not as isolated as you imply.
    It's just not plausible to believe that the low frequency gradient, and the vast area that I2a2 covers in the Balkans is a result of recent gene flow.

    1) There's no evidence of it in history.
    2) Evolutionary genetics indicate it's not true.

    It's not a large gradient anyway, only two major clusters seem to have expanded from a tiny population that only lived between something like 2000 and 2500 years ago. Looks like a quick expansion to me.
    Compared to E-V13 in the Balkans it's large. This is what the foundry aspect of a population looks like.

    If we say that E-V13 came to Kosovo around 100BC to 525AD (which are 30/y 25/y generation estimates), we have an image of E-V13 in the balkans.


    Notice that even a few hundred kilometers from the highest frequency of E-V13, the frequency drops to less than 10%.
    This is due to
    1) Geographic isolation which decreases gene flow
    2) Recent arrival of E-V13 in the Balkans

    Thus we see a large frequency gradient and a smaller total area. That being said, E1b1b in the Balkans does not only come from Albanian gene flow and has various other sources of gene flow.

    Not really. Does the relative lack of Roman genes in England prove that there was no impact from the Anglo-Saxon invasion? Expansion of R1b-U106 in England is fairly comparable to expansion of I2a-Din in the Balkans.
    You're proving the point that geographically isolated areas prevent gene flow and are not candidates for mass migrations of people.

    I'm not arguing that I2a2 purely indigenous to the Balkans, my argument is that i don't believe there is any evidence to indicate that it's from recent arrival.


    This is the frequency and area of I2a2 in the Balkans.

    The frequency gradient is much lower (ie, the drop in frequency happens over a much larger area of land)
    To me this indicates gene flow over a long period of time, and not a foundry effect such as E-V13 in the Balkans.

    It is my conclusion that E-V13 arrived at the Balkans through the Greek slave trade, that it was mostly absent is many parts of the Balkans 2000 years ago and that the indigenous people of the Balkans were primarily I2a2 carriers.

    The Croats being R1a carriers of north Croatia, and the Dalmatian coast being carriers of indigenous I2a2.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    If you need a clear example of a geographic barrier to gene flow, here it is.

    R1b frequency in the Balkans.



    Notice that there's something preventing gene flow in Bosna and Dalmatian coast.

    1) Geographic barriers prevent gene flow.
    2) To the west we have the Adriatic, to the east we have the Dinaric alps.
    3) I believe that I2 were sea people and arrived by sea/rivers to the Balkans.
    4) I believe Ken Norward is full of it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    That's not evidence, it's speculation, hypothesis and i believe it's totally bogus.

    The 2500 year age of the clade is also speculation, based on models, which are more often than not, again, bogus.
    STR dating is an imperfect model with large error bars, but that doesn't make it "speculation," "hypothesis," and "totally bogus." And diversity analysis is much better than frequency analysis at demonstrating the movement of genes, and where they came from. So, yes, it is evidence, which supports my speculation and hypothesis about where I2a-Din came from, and when. For your speculation that Illyrians did have significant I2a-Din to be correct, the model would have to be wrong in this case, which is possible. But to assume that it is wrong in this case is to go against the evidence. OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    It's just not plausible to believe that the low frequency gradient, and the vast area that I2a2 covers in the Balkans is a result of recent gene flow.

    1) There's no evidence of it in history.
    2) Evolutionary genetics indicate it's not true.
    (1) is a valid point and it's important to square genetics with history. A starting point is to trace the expansion of Slavic languages. I'll admit that I'm not an expert on the subject, but others have put together coherent theories of the expansion of Slavs on the Balkans, like John V.A. Fine.

    I feel that you have yet to demonstrate (2), however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Compared to E-V13 in the Balkans it's large. This is what the foundry aspect of a population looks like.

    If we say that E-V13 came to Kosovo around 100BC to 525AD (which are 30/y 25/y generation estimates), we have an image of E-V13 in the balkans.


    Notice that even a few hundred kilometers from the highest frequency of E-V13, the frequency drops to less than 10%.
    This is due to
    1) Geographic isolation which decreases gene flow
    2) Recent arrival of E-V13 in the Balkans

    Thus we see a large frequency gradient and a smaller total area. That being said, E1b1b in the Balkans does not only come from Albanian gene flow and has various other sources of gene flow.
    That's a pretty good demonstration of an E1b founder, I didn't know about that before, but you're not really tackling the I2a-Din data. How do you explain only two clusters with little variation within them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    You're proving the point that geographically isolated areas prevent gene flow and are not candidates for mass migrations of people.
    Huh? How did I do that? England is geographically isolated from the continent, and yet Anglo-Saxons appear to have introduced tons of R1b-U106.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    This is the frequency and area of I2a2 in the Balkans.

    The frequency gradient is much lower (ie, the drop in frequency happens over a much larger area of land)
    To me this indicates gene flow over a long period of time, and not a foundry effect such as E-V13 in the Balkans.
    Well, it probably does indicate a longer period of time than the E1b foundry you're targeting. Or maybe not. Frequency gradients can be very deceiving, because we can get them from different patterns. For example, a sudden expansion and subsequent dilution in the area around the expansion point following the same geographic patterns will look like a long-term expansion if all we're looking at is frequency. So your frequency analysis proves little, although it's evidence for a longer period of expansion than the E1b. OK, so that could mean that the E1b expansion is more recent than the 1st millennium CE introduction of I2a-Din to the Balkans. What's the diversity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    If you need a clear example of a geographic barrier to gene flow, here it is.

    R1b frequency in the Balkans.
    Not a great map, Eupedia's is better:



    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Notice that there's something preventing gene flow in Bosna and Dalmatian coast.
    No, you're misinterpreting frequency again. There is no reason to assume that the lack of R1b in certain areas of the Balkans is the result of R1b never being in those areas of the Balkans. It could very well be that other haplogroups expanded at R1b's expense in those areas.

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    @Pyrub

    Some "non genetical" evidence from me:

    How would you explain different linguistical situation before 6th century and after 7th century in Balkans? Before 6h century Slavs were unknown for people living in Balkans, and in second half of 7th century Slavic language was spoken in more than a half of Balkans. Slavic migration resulted in great diversity of Slavic dialects and even 4 (or 5) different Slavic languages existing in Balkans today.

    My answer would be that only large number of people migrating could have resulted in what we have today. And only Y-DNA numerous enough to fit in this scenario is I2a1b1.

    Second huge reason in favor of I2a1b1 arriving with Slavs is the one I did mention on the forum: Greek colonies. If I2a1b1 was in Balkans before common era than we would have it all over Mediterranean coasts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Not a great map, Eupedia's is better:

    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...ogroup_R1b.gif

    No, you're misinterpreting frequency again. There is no reason to assume that the lack of R1b in certain areas of the Balkans is the result of R1b never being in those areas of the Balkans. It could very well be that other haplogroups expanded at R1b's expense in those areas.
    I agree. I think that the most likely area where R1b entered Western Europe from is from the Balkans. Specifically, the more recent data on the more archaic varieties of R1b (excluding L11) suggested a peak in the eastern Balkans. It's certainly plausible that R1b was a lot more common on the Balkans 2000 or 3000 years ago than it is today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I agree. I think that the most likely area where R1b entered Western Europe from is from the Balkans. Specifically, the more recent data on the more archaic varieties of R1b (excluding L11) suggested a peak in the eastern Balkans. It's certainly plausible that R1b was a lot more common on the Balkans 2000 or 3000 years ago than it is today.
    you don't think that R1b came by ship and landed between barcelona and genoa, then spread from there. The balkan scenario seems only plausible if they went via the danube river. But then when the celts went back down the danube later on, the percentages would have been greater in that area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    If you need a clear example of a geographic barrier to gene flow, here it is.

    R1b frequency in the Balkans.



    Notice that there's something preventing gene flow in Bosna and Dalmatian coast.

    1) Geographic barriers prevent gene flow.
    2) To the west we have the Adriatic, to the east we have the Dinaric alps.
    3) I believe that I2 were sea people and arrived by sea/rivers to the Balkans.
    4) I believe Ken Norward is full of it.
    It dont seem like geographic barier to me , mising of R1b is clear prove that Huns , Avars and Sarmathians ethnicly cleansed previous population of Balkans in that aeria - before IV century AD there have to be significant R1b - because of strong Celtic influence
    Same is with E -it was on Balkans long ago , and it is not from slave trade , only it was pushed on small aeria by incoming invaders and that is reason of such drop in percentages - boundaries betwen newcomers and old Illyro-Romans

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    I'm amazed by the high presence of Slavic haplogroups in Southern Albanians {I2a2 and R1a}

    Both together can reach something like 30%.

    Any possible explanation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I1 and I2b in Albania is from Normans and Saxon miners . I2a2 is Serbian and Croatian Sarmathian haplogroup ( North of Liesus was in Dioklitia , and during Dusan empire Serbs were settled there , there are some sources that claim Serbs use to hold up to Fier in south Albania during VIII and VIII century ) . R1a is mainly Illyrian , and maybe very little of it Slavic . R1b is Thracean . J2 is Thracean to , some of it could be Avaric - Avaric state in Northeast Albania in VII century . E is Illyrian ( it is main Illyrian haplogroup , and Albanians are mostly descendants of Illyrians ) , some of E could also be from Greeks . T , G and Q are minor haplogroups spreaded all over Meditteranea .
    There were no Normans in this area as far as i know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    I'm amazed by the high presence of Slavic haplogroups in Southern Albanians {I2a2 and R1a}

    Both together can reach something like 30%.

    Any possible explanation?
    That is cause of the Bulgarian Empire from the IX to the XI century which majorly affected the toponimics in southern Albania, still noticeable today cause unlike the neigbhouring countries, which mainly during the 1900 and after WWI, but even after WWII changed the toponimics, in Albania mainly cause of interior problems remain unchanged even today.

    The maps I've seen do not show more than 20% combined but it's not like there are a lot of samples either...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    There were no Normans in this area as far as i know.
    Actually there Norman invasions during the XI and XIII century. Obviously their objective was not Albania or it's lands but they passed there.

    I didn't find much on the internet about it (even though i didn't search much) but in Albanian school books are mentioned the 1065 crusade, 1085 Robert Guiscard crusade and the 1204 crusade (the IV crusade) which actually destroyed Constantinople and weakened Byzantium which lead in the creation of the "first" Albanian state (in fact it was a principality). The Principality of Arbër.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    The maps I've seen do not show more than 20% combined but it's not like there are a lot of samples either...


    albanians.png

    This map shows 25% of I for Tosks that is probably mostly I2a1b and 24% of R1 that is probably something like 15-16% R1b and the rest R1a, it's more than 30% combined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion. There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.
    Actually the real delusion is to believe I2a1b( Ex I2a2) is an Illyrian HG when it obviously appeared in the Balkans after the slavic migrations, They were more than likely a R1b elite that ruled indigenous E-V13 people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    albanians.png

    This map shows 25% of I for Tosks that is probably mostly I2a1b and 24% of R1 that is probably something like 15-16% R1b and the rest R1a, it's more than 30% combined.
    where does the second major HG in albanians fit in ( J2b2) ..........I thought this was tosk with influence from epirote/greek area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Actually the real delusion is to believe I2a1b( Ex I2a2) is an Illyrian HG when it obviously appeared in the Balkans after the slavic migrations, They were more than likely a R1b elite that ruled indigenous E-V13 people.
    I believe the illyrians where all different tribes from central europe that move southward into the balkans ( getting away from the advancing germanic people who where pushing them from the north). I think these "illyrians" where R1b, R1a, I1 and other minor markers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    where does the second major HG in albanians fit in ( J2b2) ..........I thought this was tosk with influence from epirote/greek area?
    Actually it's higher in Ghegs and J2b2 isn't related much to Greeks since they're mostly J2a as most of the populations bordering Albanians. They were probably the legendary Pelasgians but i'm just speculating here.

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    In Kosovo R1b is higher than J2b2 i think. I am not sure about Albania. Two studies confirmed that, in one of the study R1b was 21.5% and in the other from Cruciani 25% while J2b2 was somewhat 17%.

    Probably there was a haplogroup percentage changes from Illyrian onward Albanians. Maybe the EV-13 was not so common as is today. Important to note that in one study(cannot remember which) Tosks scored 10% with the Early Neolithic/Cardial Ware haplogroup G2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    In Kosovo R1b is higher than J2b2 i think. I am not sure about Albania. Two studies confirmed that, in one of the study R1b was 21.5% and in the other from Cruciani 25% while J2b2 was somewhat 17%.

    Probably there was a haplogroup percentage changes from Illyrian onward Albanians. Maybe the EV-13 was not so common as is today. Important to note that in one study(cannot remember which) Tosks scored 10% with the Early Neolithic/Cardial Ware haplogroup G2a.
    That would be interesting
    Very interesting
    G2a is divided to certain groups

    if it was correct It can tell us many, even things we can not imagine
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