Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Gannicus]

+ this could be interesting for those of you more involved with genetics, it is take by another thread: "DNA MyHeritage refers to the dinaric/epirotic race"
JajarBingan said: 08-10-18 19:22
To make a separate, but related comment on what a Thracian/Dacian/proto-Balkan individual might have looked like, we might have actually got that answer last week.
From the paper on Scythians, it appears that there were "Scythian" communities in Southern Moldova, who unsurprisingly were settled, as opposed to more Northern shifted nomads.
They cluster with modern Greeks and Albanians, while Romanians and Bulgarians pull left on the PCA due to probably medieval Slavic influence.
The black dot is the Romanian average
https://i.imgur.com/qHT2vNV.jpgTheir haplogroups were E-M78 (likely V13) and R1b-Z2106
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/krzewinska-scythians-pca.pngI recommend reading more on the link between those "Scythians" and Thracians/Dacians here:
https://indo-european.eu/2018/10/r1a...kan-r1b-z2103/

[LABERIA]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...MIGRATIONS.png

It's an Wikipedia map not supported by scientific papers. It show an migration of Albanians in XIV century from North in today Albania but in XI and XII Albanians were in Greece:

History of the community and the language
The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece.

Source: REPORT

BTW, never heard about Albanian medieval lords? In XIV century, Albanian nobility was consolidated as a ruling elite. As i said, it's not a credible map or better is a stupid map.

[Gannicus]

@LABERIA
yes i heard about the albanian clan system, just watching to the skanderbeg movie you can have a basic idea of that.
Sorry for all the confusion i create, but the web is full of trash amd don't know when dogging how to distinguish mood by gold, so at least know that if I say something sow rong to be almost provokative it's because i can't distinguish the credibility of the sources, sorry for this.

[Gannicus]

@LABERIA
I know you are more of a tosk expert and i don't think you would mind helping me in what i will tell you now, but i am very curious about: at what degree montenegrians are albanians? ethnically (from biographies), culturally (clan system/canun/mountain life), politically (well they speak serbian, are othodox and very big friends of serbia, but they voted to be indipendent = they got to have some heavy distinctive non serbian trait to be so "indipendent").
About this subject, hopefully without causing a virtual balkan war, opening a thread where i would just adress the subject and nothing more then, just let the people confront each other and so on.
Just wondering if you would be interested into such a topic.

[Ownstyler]

Seveal Albanian migrations to Greece took place in the XI-XV centuries. A nice way to start learning about them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsbOixdeUbs.

[Tutkun Arnaut]

Seveal Albanian migrations to Greece took place in the XI-XV centuries. A nice way to start learning about them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsbOixdeUbs.

Thessaly immigration is the earliest. It dates 10th century. Reasons of immigration to this region are not clear. If You see genetics of Greece this region is closest to Albanians,. Turks mistreated them badly so most of Thessaly Arvanites retreated to mountains during Turkish times.

[LABERIA]

@LABERIA
yes i heard about the albanian clan system, just watching to the skanderbeg movie you can have a basic idea of that.
Sorry for all the confusion i create, but the web is full of trash amd don't know when dogging how to distinguish mood by gold, so at least know that if I say something sow rong to be almost provokative it's because i can't distinguish the credibility of the sources, sorry for this.

Then start to learn the history of Albania:
http://historia.shqiperia.com

[Piro Ilir]

E-V13 likely came from the Near East/Anatolia or even North Africa directly to Western Balkans 8000 years ago, but its boom was much later. E-V13 generally is ultra-Thracian/Daco-Moesian and only after that Greek and Illyrian. If you take out E-V13 basically Thracians/Daco-Moesians almost do not exist, because some of other Thracian R-Z2103's or R-Z93's simply do not have diversity or numbers..
E-V13 clades found in Albanians are usually younger, and almost all of them (bar PH1246 and one CTS5856*) have distant point of origin in Eastern Balkans. That includes both Z5017 and Z5018. Having said that, lack of PH1246 in Bulgaria clearly shows E-V13 is not native to that area so such high diversity is a consequence of a migration. Some younger V13 found in Albanians seem to have ties with central Europe, and look to have been part of Urnfield movements.

E-V13 among Albanians seems divided in 1) Illyrian clades, 2) illirianised Triballian clades 3) Early Medieval arrivals from Eastern/Central Balkans. This is not case with Albanian J-L283 which seems generally dominantly Illyrian in origin.

Illyrians were a mix. L283's did not arrive in this EIA movement, they arrived to Balkans a millennium earlier. So antiquity Illyrians were a mix of these 2 major blocks, L283 who arrived earlier and R1b-U152 clades from Central Europe, some younger but widespread E-V13 clades (such as clades under L241 and some under CTS9320 and also Y145455), also likely J1-ZS3128 and you might add BY611 there if its origin is in the West, as presence of some distant BY611 clades in Italy fit nicely with this.

You can't have these generalized views, about movements as if all of these older SNP's had same migration paths.

Greece is certainly not the place where E-V13 originates from. Even E-V13 clades which seem Ancient Greek are younger and have distant point of origin northwards. Except one isolated PH1246 which might represent an earlier Cetina time migration.

You're doing a hard work to make Albanians some kind of Daco/Karpian descendants. It will fail as any other non/native theory of Serbian extremist circles. Don't spend your time with inutility.

During the iron age, when we had a boom of Illyrian expansion further south and east either into Tracian lands, some formerly Tracian areas were absorbed by Illyrians, such as the tribes of proto Tribali,proto Maedi,proto Dardani etc.
This may have been the source for the Ev13 into modern Albanian.

Albanian don't have the Tracian R1a-Z93, which is the core of the Tracian element. Without it there would not be an IE Tracian language.

IE languages do not exist without their R1 haplo.

Please, tell one IE language without its branch of R1 haplogroup.

[Piro Ilir]

IIRC, this paper
.
Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots
Alexandros Heraclides , Evy Bashiardes , Eva Fernández-Domínguez, Stefania Bertoncini, Marios Chimonas, Vasilis Christofi,
Jonathan King, Bruce Budowle, Panayiotis Manoli, Marios A. Cariolou
PLOS
Published: June 16, 2017
.
states that E-V13 origin is cyprus.............I will need to revist this

.
btw, Triballian tribes are thracians and not illyrian

According to the ancient Greek myth, they were Illyrian. Not Illyrian proper though. They were absorbed by the invading Illyrians, the same as Maedi and maybe Dardani. The source of Ev13 in Albanian, I guess.

[zanipolo]

no comment from myself on this link below
.
http://global-politics.eu/refuting-g...ans-thracians/

[zanipolo]

@salento

https://dinosaursandbarbarians.wordp...lyrian-revolt/

[LABERIA]

no comment from myself on this link below
.
http://global-politics.eu/refuting-g...ans-thracians/

Well, allow me to make a comment:

Vladislav B. SOTIROVIĆ

Founder & Editor of POLICRATICUS-Electronic Magazine On Global Politics Since 2014 (www.global-politics.eu). Contact: [email protected]

Just try to be selective in what you post here. Don`t turn this forum in a garbage bin of the serb propaganda. What`s next, quoting davai, the retard serb of Apricity?

[Ownstyler]

@salento

https://dinosaursandbarbarians.wordp...lyrian-revolt/

The owner of this site spends his entire life posting different versions of this article around the internet. I can find at least 3-4 more versions of it in different sites. He is dishonest and he misquotes the authors he mentions, completely making up what he claims to be their words. You might as well cite Nazi propaganda to in a Jewish-related topic.

[Trojet]

I wouldn't expect anything else from zanipolo aka sile.

[Dema]

You're doing a hard work to make Albanians some kind of Daco/Karpian descendants. It will fail as any other non/native theory of Serbian extremist circles. Don't spend your time with inutility.

During the iron age, when we had a boom of Illyrian expansion further south and east either into Tracian lands, some formerly Tracian areas were absorbed by Illyrians, such as the tribes of proto Tribali,proto Maedi,proto Dardani etc.
This may have been the source for the Ev13 into modern Albanian.

Albanian don't have the Tracian R1a-Z93, which is the core of the Tracian element. Without it there would not be an IE Tracian language.

IE languages do not exist without their R1 haplo.

Please, tell one IE language without its branch of R1 haplogroup.

Well observed Pyro the Ilir boy!

He claims for his own clade that is Tatar or Avar in origin while his clade is being dominated mostly by Albanians with TMRCA in 900 BC. So, early Illyrian period.
He is Montenegrin assimilated Shqiptari.


His entire thesis he wrote there is at least to say ridiculous, he thinks E-v13 entered directly from Africa into Europe 8000 years ago, while he neglects exclusively European found E-L618 from which later also exclusively european E-v13 developed, also that it has presence in Neolithic Europe in times of pre-v13 SNP formed 8000 years ago.
I wanted to contradict his post, but i didnt want to hear him crying again that i am jealous because all Albanians are liking his posts while i am criticising.

[Aspurg]

You're doing a hard work to make Albanians some kind of Daco/Karpian descendants. It will fail as any other non/native theory of Serbian extremist circles. Don't spend your time withinutility.

During the iron age, when we had a boom of Illyrian expansion further south and east either into Tracian lands,some formerly Tracian areas were absorbed by Illyrians, such as the tribes of proto Tribali,proto Maedi,proto Dardani etc.
This may have been the source for the Ev13 into modern Albanian.

Generally Albanian J-L283 seem well ..un-Daco-Karpian. Well I'm a Daco-Karpian myself (or eventually Cimmerian of again Daco-Karpian like roots.) so I'm looking into possible connections there. Generally there aren't many.. I know of only 2 Albanian clusters with something that resembles an Early Medieval connection with Thracian areas. One of these might have a shot at being still Illyrian depending on the whole picture..


You are correct in IA Illyrians expanded eastwards. And yes this is when they might have picked up some V13 clades. I suspect J-L283 clades were prominent in this expansion (which probably includes a portion of Bulgarian L283's).

In particular we have the Dardani. Archaeologically it has been definitely confirmed that proto-Dardani are derived from Mediana culture, that this culture was not Illyrian but rather proto-Moesian (and as archaeologists said Moesian not proper Thracian). And that these Dardani might in some way be related to Trojan Dardani (that is a very tricky question but archaeological links exist just they arent very best for Mediana culture).

The later Dardanians in history were Illyrian, the kings usually had Illyrian names so there was an Illyrian element but it seems majority were descended from this pre-Illyrian Dardanian substrate. They also had Thracian as well as some names unique to them. So I’d say some E-V13 clades are very Dardanian.


Still recently I went with a thesis that there is likely a connection between Vatin culture and E-Z5018, the Vatin culture (un-Illyrian and proto Daco-Moesian with cremation etc.) had a Western variety in modern day Western Serbia. West-Serbian Vatin is considered to have taken part in Illyrian genesis. I mentioned E-Y145455 which seems diverse in Western Balkan. Whereas some other Z5018 clades are clearly more Eastern. So this a very convenient thing/culture, but other than this there is a range of evidence connecting Vatin and related cultures with E-V13.

CTS9320 seems a bit too young for a Vatin connection. The likely option for CTS9320 is Basarabi or Gava culture.


Things are not sometimes simple either, like simple assimilation, there are some Illyrian Glasinac-Mati graves that were of clear Eastern (Thracian/Thraco-Cimmerian-like) origin yet they seem to have become Illyrian voluntarily.

I think the Southern range of Illyrians, the so-called Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture might have had more E-V13. Also this complex should have connections to West-Serbian Vatin culture.

Albanian don't have the Tracian R1a-Z93, which isthe core of the Tracian element. Without it there would not be an IE Tracian language.

IE languages do not exist without their R1 haplo.

Please, tell one IE language without its branchof R1 haplogroup.

Of course R1a/R1b brought the language but you are forgetting some important Z2103 clades which have confirmed old presence in Thracian areas.
One of these is R-Y5587 with looks entrenched there 4300 ybp.
That R-Z93 guy is very interesting in many ways. Autosomally he was closer to Pamiri people or N.Caucasians than to modern Greeks or Albanians.. Some have tied the Dacian/Thracian languages with Baltic languages, he might be carrier of proto-Thracian language but in such a case R-Y5587 might not have been that. Also I think R-BY250 is more Balkan than it seems currently.
I referred to numerical diversity of E-V13 clades in Daco-Thracian areas. Of R-Z93 clades, you are correct Albanians have none like Serbs but Bulgarians have 5 Z93 clades atm. Of those 3 are Bulgar/Cuman, 1 looks local (might be connected to that find) and for 1 I’m not sure 100 %, more likely not local.

You are Z2705? or L283?

Wellobserved Pyro the Ilir boy!

He claims for his own clade that is Tatar or Avar in origin while his clade is being

It seems very likely my particular clade has a connection with both Cumans and Pechenegs/Berendei. There are many ways to explain this.I'd say the most recent possible option for entering those groups is Pechenegs burning the Kolos fort in 1068. I do have a genetic relative in Cluj (Koloszvar - Kolos fort) and my cousins are not frequent. As I told you members of my cluster are found in very vicinity of Turkic nomadic traces: 1) Kumanica Bijelo Polje, 2) Pecenjevce near Leskovac 3) Karcag Hungary , 4) I might add village Krnja Jela at Pester where a land in 16th century was called Cuman because some other family related to mine might descend from this village.
These are mix of Cuman and Pecheneg, that indicates a connection dating to 11th century because Pechenegs were defeated by Cumans in 1092, and their remnants survived as part of tribal group Black Hats, alongside some other groups such as Torkil or Berendei. Ofc because immediately next to the village Pecenjece there is Čekmin, that these are mentioned together in 1498, that closest analogy to Čekmin is a Berendei khan Čekman in around 1170, and that nearby there are two villages of Berende connected to them by historians I would say that all these fit very well together.
So if a cluster has connection to both of these then this connection must date to 11th century because afterwards Pechenegs were not a factor, within Cherniye Klobuki group they are mentioned far less than some other groups. There is 100 % an SNP that me and my cousins in the Balkans share, and this SNP is not 100 % shared by NW Dacian haplotypes. That alone indicates we come from there, as does diversity of Z17107* Z38456- in the area etc..

But of notice to me was also occurrence of some Bulgar traces as well,and the Bolgar clan this is in question is actually the only Bulgar clan to have a legitimate connection with Avars.


Recently a Kalmikian study was published and one E haplotype had a very good match with the American who is Z17107+ but Z38456-, as already two such clades exist in the East I need not imply what would mean ifthose Americans too have Eastern origin and I think they likely do because of some other haplotypes in the area. As I said some other Kalmykian E looked similar to my own clade, and that seems very interesting.. Ofc I dont think these are real Kalmykians from Asia but I do think they might be the indigenous people there whom they assimilated. And for 2 of those 3 Z17107* clades I am looking into a viable distant SNP connection with my own clade and I'm working on bringing light to that. If there is any SNP connection of those Z17107 clades to my own then my ancestors knew 500 years ago their ancestry going back to 6th or 7th century.

dominated mostly by Albanians with TMRCA in 900 BC. So, early Illyrian period.

The Balkan of Z38456>BY4461 cluster is dominated by Albanians yes. But the oldest basal clades of Z17107 are found in Carpathian region.That includes my own clade, found around Bihar area in Romania/Hungary (with most distant haplotypes), the E-Y81971 which has no closer relatives yet, another Z17107, Z38456- clade in Lavov area of Ukraine, as well another Z17107, Z38456- clade in Russians. The basal diversity determines the place of origin for a clade and all of these are Z38456- to which Balkan cluster is positive as is Swedish clade which is basal Z38456. So the origin point of Z17107 at the very least seems Carpathian area. Another CTS9320 clade showing strong diversity there is BY4526, which also has some distant clade(s) in Sweden. So I think there might be a connection between these clades in their migratory paths. To explore that I'd have to get some insight from the Mid Nordic BA period to see was there some movement to the North from Carpathian area.

Not to say that there aren't modern Serb E-V13 clades of direct Albanian ancestry within 200-600 years. Of course there are. Some FGC11450's fit there, Kuchi per documetary evidence were likely Albanian. Bjelopavlici might have been too. there are some other clades, but my own clade is not one of them.

Heis Montenegrin assimilated Shqiptari.

Impossible,my ancestors came from Shop area in late Mediveal times. My clan has very little to do with Montenegrins as an ethnicity. It is "Rascian", that is its home is Lim river area, not historical Montenegro (which is South of Tara river). My clan falls under "Srbljaci" designation. Most E-V13 clades in the area came from the South 200, 300 years ago but not mine. There is clear genetic proof 3 of my own mutations happened in the Shop area, I come from there 100 %, late Medieval times, earlier presence in N. Montenegro looks impossible, there is no diversity there of my clade there whatsoever.

Besides, the Shqiptar is a recent Albanian autonym, derived most likely from the verb shqipoj and shqiptoj. If it was older the Arbanasi of Zadar, Arberesh, or Arvanites would have used it as their autonym wouldn't they? So it is obvious what is the older term here, even in the case of Arbanasi from Zadar who immigrated there 300 years ago. And obviously I can't possibly have anything to do with such a recent term being some 3000 years distant, nor can I with Arbanon/Arben or its varieties either because it likely derives from Illyrian tribe of Albani, with whom I can't have any connection whatsoever going by genetic evidence, because where I come from is the Shop area and before that Northwest Dacia..

Hisentire thesis he wrote there is at least to say ridiculous, he thinksE-v13 entered directly from Africa into Europe 8000 years ago, whilehe neglects exclusively European found E-L618 from which later alsoexclusively european E-v13 developed, also that it has presence inNeolithic Europe in times of pre-v13 SNP formed 8000 years ago.
Iwanted to contradict his post, but i didnt want to hear him cryingagain that i am jealous because all Albanians are liking his postswhile i am criticising.

It is bit of a mystery from where E-V13 came from. But recently I saw some autosomal results showing Dalmatian Cardials having small ties to Iberomaurusians.
https://populationgenomics.blog/2019...opean-farmers/

Indeed it autosomally plots more to the East. I need to compare them with more samples.

Where E-L618 might stem from is PP Neolithic B, where some E-M78* was found. Any other way is maritime from N.Africa. And when it comes tothe origin of Cardial Ware there is ambiguity on whether its Levant or N. Africa. And for sure it is no accident E-L618 was rare in EEF's but common in Impresso culture. One found in Cardial Spain, one in Dalmatia and one in Sopot culture (which had ties to Dalmatian Cardial). And of course if genetics did not exist I would have known some population different to the bulk of EEF's existed in Dalmatia. Some suggested Mesolithic presence in Europe, currently I'd say not likely..

E-L618 might have been proto-Cardial, Cardials might have spoken an Afro-Asiatic language not Tyrsenian/Rhaetic.

[Aspurg]

Btw to quote archaeologist M. Garasanin (not the 19th century figure):

Pottery of the group represents an evolution of forms which can be followed throughout the BA (Paracin) and the earlier phase of transitional period (Mediana), while funerary ritus connects this group with the Balkan-Upper Danube complex and it sharply differentiates it from the contemporary phenomenons of the Western Balkans.

The group of Donja Brnjica - Gornja Strazava and Mediana group make up the core of the transitional period culture in the classical area of Dardania. Therefore their carriers are certainly tied to the process of formation of the Dardanian ethnos. Thereby, however, it is confirmed his primary independence from the neighboring proto-Illyrian groups.

Also in Mediana II phase Gava pottery appears, and in Mediana III also more Eastern channeled pottery (Babadag, Basarabi). So later phases saw possible/likely introduction of some E-CTS9320 clades into proto-Dardanians.
As for the original clade my guess might be E-FGC11450 and also E-FGC33614, though the latter seems kinda young atm.
Paracin (pre-Dardanians) were also a variant of Vatin culture.

The new-comer Illyrian element I strongly suspect included J-PH1602, which can be found in Bulgaria as well. This clade has a Western origin point and considering it's age and spread it should have a connection to Glasinac culture in addition to Delmatae (in Dalmatia).

Also West-Serbian Vatin seems to have been interrupted by some Urnfield element. I was thinking of movement of some E-Y145455 from Western Serbia to Southern Albania (there are some likely connections between the two) at that time in LBA as these Albanian clusters are geographically quite distant.


Btw I see a new Bulgarian Y3183* clade appeared, I suspect it's one more widely-spread cluster in the East of Balkans, but also some Greeks and Romanians (hence likely Vlach). But it confirms high basal diversity of Y3183 there.

Also I see new Albanian Z16988 from Skrapar: YF63299. Is he of some already established clade or?

You have one R-PF7562 dys385=12-13, this cluster is very common in Aromanians from Macedonia, found in Greeks. I suggest some SNP tests, I thought he might be some basal PF7562 hence to confirm PF7562 expanded first to Balkans before heading off to Asia Minor (as proto-Luwians/Hittites).

[Aspurg]

Hmm speaking of E-Y145455 there is also a new Bulgarian E-Y145455* (YF63305)! I wasn't aware thus far of any E-Y145455 there. It will be interesting to see where he ends up. So today two new Z5018 Bulgarians!
Not yet on YFull E-Z5018>A2192 also has a Bulgarian Turk as well as a Moldovan certainly connected to him (but they are not that close 8/37).
Also there is one Bulgarian Z17293 under Z5018 (this one is not yet at YFull).

[Ownstyler]

Also I see new Albanian Z16988 from Skrapar: YF63299. Is he of some already established clade or?

YF63299 should split E-Y133830.

There is also a new Bulgarian R-Y18959, the first on YFull, although in relation to the Albanians downstream, it is still 4800 years apart.

It is pretty interesting that so many subclades shared by both Albanians and Bulgarians come from either Tarnovo and the Central-Northern region of Bulgaria, or from the part close to the Turkish border. Meanwhile Sofia and it's region, Montana, and generally the western part of Bulgaria have fewer such clades. Those central-northern and south-eastern regions are known to have had Albanian settlements in the last 500 years, but some more in-depth testing is necessary to clarify how old these relationships are.

[Leka]

The Albanian from Skrapar under Z16988 is positive for three Y133830 SNPs, so he will split that subclade.

[Aspurg]

YF63299 should split E-Y133830.

Ah, Caushi? He looked very close to Bjelopavlici, like 5/37? That means Albanian ancestry for them is very likely. Also YF63304 must be Dushmani? Plenty of new additions today. As I explained at poreklo, one Macedonian Albanian had such haplotype as well from the study (YFiler plus).
Also some were speculating on Shoshi being related to Bjelopavlici, as I understood they might have some relation to Leka Dukagjini, and Bjelopavlici claimed descent from Dukagjin.

There is also a new Bulgarian R-Y18959, the first on YFull, although in relation to the Albanians downstream, it is still 4800 years apart.

Very interesting, it does indicate that CTS1450 clades entered Balkan early. You also have one basal CTS1450*. What is interesting to me is their original language. Ancient Greek is quite unlikely, if the proto-Thracian has fundamental relation to R-Z93 it is unlikely too. But I think that field is still wide-open for them in that regard.. Illyrian, maybe..

It is pretty interesting that so many subclades shared by both Albanians and Bulgarians come from either Tarnovo and the Central-Northern region of Bulgaria, or from the part close to the Turkish border. Meanwhile Sofia and it's region, Montana, and generally the western part of Bulgaria have fewer such clades. Those central-northern and south-eastern regions are known to have had Albanian settlements in the last 500 years, but some more in-depth testing is necessary to clarify how old these relationships are.

Indeed in the case of closer connections it will be obvious already in many cases by looking at STR's. Yes I'm aware of some enclaves of Albanians there (for ex. village Arbanasi near Tarnovo).

[Aspurg]

The Albanian from Skrapar under Z16988 is positive for three Y133830 SNPs, so he will split that subclade.

Only 3? That means he is not Caushi, but more distant. In such case as Caushi is nearby (if he is of them as he looks) it would make this clade rather firmly entrenched in that area, in any case that Albanian is old in Skrapar region?
Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture looks interesting for some E-V13's also because J-L283 is far less common in Tosks so that means it likely had less connection with Southern Illyrian tribes than it did with the Northern ones (in modern day Albania).

[Ownstyler]

Ah, Caushi? He looked very close to Bjelopavlici, like 5/37? That means Albanian ancestry for them is very likely. Also YF63304 must be Dushmani? Plenty of new additions today. As I explained at poreklo, one Macedonian Albanian had such haplotype as well from the study (YFiler plus).
Also some were speculating on Shoshi being related to Bjelopavlici, as I understood they might have some relation to Leka Dukagjini, and Bjelopavlici claimed descent from Dukagjin.

No, it is actually a new test from Skrapar and the haplotype is quite different. The TMRCA with the Montenegrins should be well above 2000 ybp.

Very interesting, it does indicate that CTS1450 clades entered Balkan early. You also have one basal CTS1450*. What is interesting to me is their original language. Ancient Greek is quite unlikely, if the proto-Thracian has fundamental relation to R-Z93 it is unlikely too. But I think that field is still wide-open for them in that regard.. Illyrian, maybe..



Indeed in the case of closer connections it will be obvious already in many cases by looking at STR's. Yes I'm aware of some enclaves of Albanians there (for ex. village Arbanasi near Tarnovo).

I agree on the arrival time, but for such an old clade it is also possible that they spoke some kind language that we don't know today, or a language which later split into several historically attested ones.

It is a bit difficult to determine splits of the last 1000 years in subclades that have expanded quickly, such as R-Z2705 and J-PH1751, that's why I am hoping for some more SNP and NGS tests. The R-Z2705 subclade will practically double by the end of the year, since there are plenty new tests coming from different countries. Maybe that will clarify things a little bit.

[Trojet]

Only 3? That means he is not Caushi, but more distant. In such case as Caushi is nearby (if he is of them as he looks) it would make this clade rather firmly entrenched in that area, in any case that Albanian is old in Skrapar region?
Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture looks interesting for some E-V13's also because J-L283 is far less common in Tosks so that means it likely had less connection with Southern Illyrian tribes than it did with the Northern ones (in modern day Albania).

It's the one with GATAH4=12 that we discussed some time ago, and that we thought could be some Z17107. As stated, he is positive for three SNPs at YFull's E-Y133830 level, where Bjelopavlici are. Also the new French sample defines the same exact split. I guess we'll have to see if this Albanian and the French share any SNPs amongst themselves (unlikely). For Caushi, I'm not sure how he would fit into this without further testing.

On FTDNA there is further splits between the Albanian/French samples and the Bjelopavlici cluster. There is a Welsh and a German, and finally a sample from Croatia is closest to Bjelopavlici. So FTDNA's haplotree is ahead in this regard, as not every BigY uploads to YFull.

[Aspurg]

It's the one with GATAH4=12 that we discussed some time ago, and that we thought could be some Z17107. As stated, he is positive for three SNPs at YFull's E-Y133830 level. Also the new french sample defines the same exact split. I guess we'll have to see if this Albanian and the French share any SNPs amongst themselves (unlikely).

On FTDNA there is further splits between the Albanian/French samples and the Bjelopavlici cluster. There is a Welsh and a German, and finally a sample from Croatia is closest to Bjelopavlici. So FTDNA's haplotree is ahead in this regard as not every BigY uploads to YFull.

Ah cool, well 497 proves it self once again when it comes to Z16988.. I know that Franch guy, I might be able if I'm lucky to isolate the STR that defines their branch now that we have several early splits..

Yes I see that FTDNA haplotree can be more useful, also regarding E-BY4526 which is not read very well.

For Caushi I'm not sure how he would fit into this without further testing.

I think I have a good idea where he fits. Bjelopavlici and Croatian are 20/111, distinct slow STR shared by the clade dys460=10 thereby confirming it's age here.
Croatian however does not share certain unusual specific Bjelopavlic vlaues: dys439=11, dys456=15. it seems 456 backmutated to 15.

Caushi does not share dys439=11, but he does share dys456=15. I think Caushi must be closer to Bjelopavlic than Croatian. He does have the old 460 value for this cluster, he is SNP confirmed as Z16988+ and the only 460=10 I see is this cluster, plus he does share this back-mutation at dys456. Also his GD is close.

Shoshi I heard has though 439=11, he tested only few STR's no 460? If he has 10 I'd say he too is surely of this clade and he should be closer to Bjelopavlici than Caushi beacuse 439=11 seems like a newer Bjelopavlici mutation.

My proposed tree under E-Z16988>BY4197


BY4197
-->BY34282
YF63299 Albanian Skrapar
YF63111 French


--->BY50887
some German ?
---->BY70508
B1790 Bowen Wales, + another Welsh distant to him.


---->BY155589 dys460=10 etc.
349847 Ivsan Croatia
N47659 Murat Croatia 20/111 with Bjelopavlici
+ my additions
IN14237 Hungary dys460=10 6/67 to Murat
374329 Austrian, Linz dys460=10 3/37 to Murat


------> dys456=15 ? etc.
Caushi, Cameria Albania, dys460=10, dys456=15
-------> 439=11 etc.
YF14278 Bjelopavlic
YF16330 Bjelopavlic
? Shoshi, Gri, Tropoje, 439=11, if 460=10 etc.


You should test Shoshi at least for dys460, does he have 456=15? This would mean Bjelopavlici descend from the South of Albania, and that they might have separated from Shoshi after they migrated to the North, which was probably not that long ago as Caushi seems reasonably close. There is this second Croatian/Hungarian/Austrian cluster that seems more distant, 1500-2000 years range.

From Elsies book
"As one of the main Dukagjin tribes, they may have an original tie to the mediaeval Dukagjini family. Much of their local legendry is, at any rate, connected to the figure of Lekë Dukagjini (1410-81), comrade-in-arms and later rival of Scanderbeg. The forested area of Kodra e Shëngjergjit, which was once regarded as the capital of all of Dukagjin (including Shala, Shoshi, Pulati, Nikaj and Mërturi), is situated in Shoshi territory."

As you know Bjelopavlici claim Dukagjin descent, as far as I know this is their oldest tradition. So they might descend of Leka afterall. Or that Leka was of their cluster. Wouldn't Shoshi like to descend of Leka Dukagjin?
Seriously Bjelopavlici can't descend of Leka Dukagjin because they are already in 1411 a formed tribe, and he was a baby then, but Leka might have been E-BY155589..