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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #1051
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    lol look at this psychopath OWD kid raging now, now when his trash theory was rejected now he is searching my old forum posts to try to prove something and insulting like some vulgar.


    Btw your explanations are useless, it dosent matter TMRCA of Greek and Italian samples but simply the fact that they are there, together with Albanians even tho you didnt include them.
    Then when going upwards the genetic tree, all the way up to E-Z5017 its obviously dominated with Albanian, Italian, Greek, Portuguese, Montenegro samples.


    So to repeat again, your closest relatives are in South Serbia, partially Macedonia and rest of Balkan known for Albanian population.
    And second wave of relatives is at Albanians, Greeks, Italians, in majority.

    Out of all these relatives Albanians have highest TMRCA and are most significant group TMRCA and percentage wise, also they have Z17107 occupied in genetic sence of speaking at least when looking upwards the genetic tree all the way up to Z5017.

    You are classic South Serbian Šiptar assimilate, level of your insecurity is extreme, you should have not entered in genetic research if you are not ready for truth.


    Regarding out of Africa origin of E-v13, now you can see that i was back then on your level where are you now, don't forget few posts ago you were claiming E-v13 went directly of Africa 8000 years ago, while i had to remind you of his exclusively European found ancient DNA ancestor - E-L618 and their both E-L618 and v13 European distribution.

    Look here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    E-V13 likely came from the Near East/Anatolia or even North Africa directly to Western Balkans 8000 years ago, but its boom was much later. E-V13 generally is
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    ultra-Thracian/Daco-Moesian and only after that Greek and Illyrian. If you take out E-V13 basically Thracians/Daco-Moesians almost do not exist
    You practically claimed here and made same mistake as i made in post you previously quoted trying to prove something.
    And i corrected you here :
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post575434

    Also your ultra BS against Illyrian E-v13 is also noticeable in this post as Piro the Ilir boy has very well noticed.
    Before we thought these are Neolithic E-v13 samples, now its clear we are dealing with L618*, that changed few things. You cant hold for someone said years ago while there are new finding every day.

    Obviously, E-L618 was out of Africa migration, his descendent E-v13 is European born. 4800 years TMRCA part of E-v13 was for sure spread with IE.

    When you see MENA with this haplo its almost certain they are European descendent that used to spread with Indo-European languages.
    Last edited by Dema; 13-05-19 at 11:23.

  2. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Yeah there are Greeks and others, but they’re all 458=19/20 with a TMRCA of 1800 ybp, add them all you like, you can add 1000 of them and their TMRCA still stays the same. They’re a Balkan Late Antiquity bottleneck. From where this bottleneck comes from is determined by it’s basal clades as always.
    It’s an educated estimate based on some low res analysis but a valid one because all of us in the Balkan have similar haplotypes. That my proposed tree is correct is supported by two back-mutation on slow STR’s, and one mutation on a slow STR. They are aided by another one specific at faster STR. It is also supported by the sharp geographic division between 3 groups: 1) youngest in N.Montenegro 2) older in Shop and 3) oldest in N.Transylvania.
    A24048a is named after YFull fashion (as is the tree modeled, I like things that look good), it has formed based on estimate separation from the A24048*. This estimate is based upon 111 STR comparison between YF18711 (me) and E5882 and it can only go up not down. But because we are bit more mutated it also for that reason harder to say. A24048a shares the old value of GATAH4=12 shared by Northern guys typical of many Z17107's, but not by Montenegrins nor by many in the Shop area. That is a clear evidence GATAH4=12->11 happened in the Shop area. Second evidence is the mutation on dys576 shared by all Westerners and by one Shop guy, indicating this mutation also happened in the Shop. And of course all balkanites share dys385b=17, which cannot possibly be modal (because all other Z17107 have the V13 modal of 18) and this is clearly indicative of Balkan Bottleneck. Northerners lack this crucial mutation, they are not part of the Balkan group, and looking at GDat 111 STR's they are much more distant..

    I’m lucky. Average V13 looks far more modal, I don’t. And I use it well. There is no chance whatsoever all of those guys are not my cousins. Neither is there any chance whatsoever that those North of Danube are not most distant. And in their vicinity there are other basal Z17107, indicating the home is there.

    You're beating a dead horse Dema.. It seems you are not even able to comprehend these facts but I'm sure some admins reading this are.
    Cuman has 90+ %, Pecheneg 90+ %, Avar 70 %,“Russian” (Sarmatian) has 55 %. Dacian has 45 %. Illyrian has 0%, Thracian has 0 %, Triballian has 0.1 %, Greek 0 %..
    This is off-topic anyway, serious forums punish off-topic etc. but many dying forums allow for double-digit nolife Betas to thrive, more crap posted more traffic, it's the final stage usually.. Well not for all, in some this stage is very prolonged.
    Aaaaaah, he's not tested, hence some dreams about "Aryan genes", and "despicable" E-V13's.. Well sorry, but it seems many those "Aryans" seem to have had generally higher views of V13's than of so many other hg's..
    What do you mean by 'Aryans' ? Or 'Aryan' dreams either!
    I think all your talking here with Dema is inutile. Has no value about this thread. Your personal Y-dna has nothing to do with what we are trying to figure out here. Your Y-dna is only one. Most of Ev13 in Serbs is well agreed that's coming by Illyrians and later by Albanians. We already know that Montenegrins today have some Albanian origin, and Ev13 is proving this, and not only. Maybe you're right about your Ev13, but it has nothing to do with the broader spread of it.
    Three main Albania Y-dna today are Ev13, Z2103, and J2b2. Z2103 and J2b2 is Illyrian, while Ev13 is proven to be Tracian. So, Tracian is Ev13+Z93 while Illyrian is J2b2+Z2103. Considering that Albanians have no Z93, ev13 in Albanian might have been absorbed not via Tracian. It was dispersed or picked by Illyrians or proto/Illyrians whether, not in Tracian areas

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    while Ev13 is proven to be Tracian
    That is not proven. No Thracian E-V13 has been found until now, only one E-Z1919. We don't know if it was E-V13+ or not. On the other hand, E-L618, which is even closer to E-V13, has been found in Croatia. The earliest E-V13 found so far is an autosomally Balkan IA Scythian. Later E-V13s were found in Spain and Hungary, also autosomally Balkan.

    In any case, the E-V13 TMRCA lived ~4800 years ago, ages before the Thracians, so if you mean that all E-V13 was Thracian, or that it started with the Thracians, that cannot be the case. Thracians probably had certain subclades, just like other IA Balkan peoples.

  4. #1054
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You are classic South Serbian Šiptar assimilate, level of your insecurity is extreme, you should have not entered in genetic research if you are not ready for truth.

    Part of the truth was revealed today! I got another cousin in Serbs! Aaand he's from the Rudnik, just few kilometers away from the village Yarmenovtsi!!!!! (Ermi, Ermi) And Kumanica there. Different patron saint, no tradition whatsoever of relation with me. He might be distantly from Pester by tradition but I got already some diversity in Rudnik area where Kumanicic family had the dominion, and ofc their link is Bijelo Polje area as explained by historians. My clan ruled Pester in 15th, 16th, 17th century until the arrival of Kuci, Kelmendi etc. Yeah also got some feudal land called Kuman on Pester. Btw Pester stems from the Slavic word for "cave", but this is common in Bulgarian! In Serbian it is Pećina, you see the difference in Serbian ć to Bulgarian sht. So Peshter was likely too brought from the Shop by my folk. My new cousin very likely clusters with Macedonian (I'm pretty sure he's around Kumanovo area)


    Good. All of my people thus far are in the vicinity of Kumanica 1/Kumanica 2 or Yarmen/Yarmenovci.


    You started trashing V13 cause some Berisha told you you were a gypsy? Hmm maybe you've been assimilated by some Ashkalis before your albanization? Ederlezi Sa o Romaaaaa Demaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Te gusta la musica gitanaaa?


    I got now like 6 Serb families from my cluster that is 3000 years away from Albanians (well 5000 Serbs have been tested at poreklo so it's logical to have more Serbs than some other ethnicities), all around Kumanica in Bijelo Polje or Kumanica in Rudnik and Shop. I got Bulgarian from their capital, Macedonian (quite likely from around Kumanovo), and Hungarian from Cumania, and Romanian from Cluj. And no Albanians at all (even in studies), and yet this braindeadoid dares to make up any connection with Albanians as an ethnicity?

    Fu***** Fu***** Dema, what a Fu***** idiot.



    Yeah I'm sooooo "Southern", am I. I'm geographically entirely from all sides Southern, Central Bosnia and Bijelo Polje area.


    FTDNA My origins
    Attachment 11028



    Southeast Europe at 18 %, Albanians often score 100 %. And almost all Serbs score higher than me. East Europe 76 %, Asia Minor 5 %, so my SEE is only 3.6 times bigger than AM but SEE is 4.2 times smaller than my EE. And I got 1 % undetermined, might be something too savage to be determined.

    Mytrueancestry
    1. Croatian (5.182)
    2. Moldavian (6.442)
    3. Slovenian (6.580)
    4. Bosnian (8.032)


    No Serbs here, let alone Albanians (I know they have Kosovars there certainly). At Eurogenes K15 map I plot in the middle between Serbs, Croats and Moldavians. I am very NE for my location in various calculators.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Regarding out of Africa origin of E-v13, now you can see that i was back then on your level where are you now, don't forget few posts ago you were claiming E-v13 went directly of Africa 8000 years ago, while i had to remind you of his exclusively European found ancient DNA ancestor - E-L618 and their both E-L618 and v13 European distribution.


    Look here:


    You practically claimed here and made same mistake as i made in post you previously quoted trying to prove something.
    And i corrected you here : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post575434


    Also your ultra BS against Illyrian E-v13 is also noticeable in this post as Piro the Ilir boy has very well noticed.
    Before we thought these are Neolithic E-v13 samples, now its clear we are dealing with L618*, that changed few things. You cant hold for someone said years ago while there are new finding every day.


    Obviously, E-L618 was out of Africa migration, his descendent E-v13 is European born. 4800 years TMRCA part of E-v13 was for sure spread with IE.


    When you see MENA with this haplo its almost certain they are European descendent that used to spread with Indo-European languages.

    I and some other knowledgeable people did postulate maritime arrival from the Nortnern Africa as well, because no E-L618 was found yet in Anatolian Neolithic samples. E-L618 is Cardial, Cardial might have still origin in N.Africa yes, if it deosn't it is Pre Pottery Neolithic B, but what would you know about it..


    There are many Illyrian E-V13's. And I gave a viable solution for some clades being shared in form of dual-affinity Vatin culture.

    No sane man would have said what you said even 10 years ago, that much was apparent back then from the studies etc.. You are just naturally "gifted" with dumbness..
    Last edited by Aspurg; 13-05-19 at 23:35.

  5. #1055
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    What do you mean by 'Aryans' ? Or 'Aryan' dreams either!

    What I mean is people like Bachus. He registered on a Serbian forum krstarica with a nickname "krishna" and he claimed there that he is some R-Z93, he never tested but is likely I2a clade. And here he is posting everywhere any single Serb who has high Slavic autosomal score and he acts as if he had won a lottery.




    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    I think all your talking here with Dema is inutile. Has no value about this thread. Your personal Y-dna has nothing to do with what we are trying to figure out here. Your Y-dna is only one. Most of Ev13 in Serbs is well agreed that's coming by Illyrians and later by Albanians. We already know that Montenegrins today have some Albanian origin, and Ev13 is proving this, and not only. Maybe you're right about your Ev13, but it has nothing to do with the broader spread of it.
    Three main Albania Y-dna today are Ev13, Z2103, and J2b2. Z2103 and J2b2 is Illyrian, while Ev13 is proven to be Tracian. So, Tracian is Ev13+Z93 while Illyrian is J2b2+Z2103. Considering that Albanians have no Z93, ev13 in Albanian might have been absorbed not via Tracian. It was dispersed or picked by Illyrians or proto/Illyrians whether, not in Tracian areas

    I agree, it is useless and it stops. My E-V13 is in many ways unusual. It does have plenty of distantly related Albanians generally Z17107 is very diverse North of Danube. I haven't tried to make a similar thesis for some others because it is not possible. But I've worked alone for the most part, and when some more people get involved soon that is going to make a difference.


    I said clearly that E-v13 is Illyrian too. It must be because it has a strong presence and diversity too in some Illyrian areas but in the global picture.
    Some CTS1273 clades
    Z5017 has strong diversity of basal clades in Bulgaria, stronger than in Albanians (just remember the paternal clade to CTS9320 and some parallel clades: basal BY4684 (Z19851, without any close link to another such cluster found in some Romanians, Greeks, and one Albanian), as well as Z9851 now at YFull who has dys390=24 (modal for that cluster is 25)
    Z5018 has strong diversity of basal clades in Bulgaria, stronger than in Albanians. No Z5018 basal clade Albanians have is absent in Bulgarians. Two of Bulgarian basal Z5018 clades are absent in Albanians.
    S7461 has strong diversity of basal clades in Bulgaria, much stronger than in Albanians
    Y16729 has strong diversity of basal clades in Bulgaria (one Macedonian is of Vlach cluster from there), does not exist in Albanians

    You had more deep tested Albanians but Bulgarians are restarting again.


    But PH1246 has no presence whatsoever in Bulgarians, has relatively strong presence in Serbs/Croats, and minor in Greeks and Albanians. Indicating it's more Western orientation. This indicates that E-V13 is not native in Bulgaria but that E-CTS1273 arrived in numbers there about 4000 ybp.


    There are few deep tested Romanians which is a big problem, so it needs to be seen what are their connections here.
    There are indications from sutdies that PH1246 might be very diverse in Moldavia also.


    As I said there were some contact cultures in the area and they are very good candidates for various Albanian V13's. Did I not say that I think majority of Dardanians might have been E-V13? Dardanians were Illyrian but they were also a unique population, their kingdom was always separate from the Illyrian kingdom


    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    That is not proven. No Thracian E-V13 has been found until now, only one E-Z1919. We don't know if it was E-V13+ or not. On the other hand, E-L618, which is even closer to E-V13, has been found in Croatia. The earliest E-V13 found so far is an autosomally Balkan IA Scythian. Later E-V13s were found in Spain and Hungary, also autosomally Balkan.


    In any case, the E-V13 TMRCA lived ~4800 years ago, ages before the Thracians, so if you mean that all E-V13 was Thracian, or that it started with the Thracians, that cannot be the case. Thracians probably had certain subclades, just like other IA Balkan peoples.

    By that logic very little is proven. Slavic I2a is also not proven, and how can it possibly even be "proven" as Slavs practiced cremation and so have generally most Thracian/Moesian/Dacian groups. And yet I2a Din is Slavic..

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    By that logic very little is proven. Slavic I2a is also not proven, and how can it possibly even be "proven" as Slavs practiced cremation and so have generally most Thracian/Moesian/Dacian groups. And yet I2a Din is Slavic..
    Indeed very little is proven. As I said, it is very likely that Thracians had several E-V13 subclades, but calling V13 Thracian is not correct. Some subclades might have had a Thracian origin, yes, not all of them. The V13 mutation certainly did not occur among the Thracians, and the E-V13 TMRCA did not live among them, but before the formation of the Thracian people.

    I2a-CTS10288>Y3120 has a mountain of evidence (presented in other threads) which V13 lacks. I-Y3120 subclade diversity is clearly centered in Easter and Central Europe, TMRCA-s match early medieval expansions much more closely, and we already have several aDNA results from relatively early Slavic and other Eastern European medieval societies. Not to mention that this expansion is far more recent so the current distribution is much more relevant. I am still not calling the whole of I-Y3120 Slavic, but most of the subclades that we know probably were.

    For V13, TMRCA does not match Thracians, diversity differs tremendously from subclade to subclade and we do not have aDNA in the Balkans. For now, we can only speak in probabilities. In all likelihood, Thracians had some V13 clades, as did other IA Balkan peoples.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Regardless Aspurg's y dna came from Shiptars or Turkic people he is far away from Shiptars and Central Asian Turks autosomally. This is reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    What I mean is people like Bachus. He registered on a Serbian forum krstarica with a nickname "krishna" and he claimed there that he is some R-Z93, he never tested but is likely I2a clade.
    I took that nickname on Krstarica only for the joke. Once I was joking with one guy there that I am R1a-Z93.
    Honestly I don't like India and their culture and religion. I am not R1a-Z93, thanks God. That haplogroup doesn't exist among Serbs, unlike Bosniaks and Croatians. Bosniak Bećir from Bosanska Krajina is R1a-Z93, and he has Turkish origin for sure. Croatian guy from Lika who is R1a-Z93 is descendant of Lika Muslim convertits on Catholicism in late 17th century, and that means he also has Turkish paternal origin. If I am R1a-Z93 I would have Turkish or Jewish paternal line, I say again thanks God because I don't carry R1a-Z93.

    Btw my cousin by paternal line who live in diaspora was tested. I told that to few guys from Poreklo long time ago.
    Last edited by Bachus; 14-05-19 at 01:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Regardless Aspurg's y dna came from Shiptars or Turkic people he is far away from Shiptars and Central Asian Turks autosomally. This is reality.
    I agree with you for once. After all you and I are very likely related so you shouldn't join these t r o l l s against me. My Bosniak maternal paternal side very likely (not yet tested but strong documentary evidence exists) are from the vlach Ugarak tribe, and that is your grandmothers lineage right? But if so my mothers ancestry derives from the Ugarcic family befoe they entered Vlach status.

    My K36 Europe and Asia
    Attachment 11029

    Attachment 11030

    I'm closer here to Scandinavians than Albanians. Also I'm not so close to Montenegrins at all.. That is because I have no proper Montnegrin admixture. My side is from Lim river, first time this territory entered Montenegro was in 1912. And this area around Bihor had more of the old population. I'm closer to West Ukrainians than Montegrins, and not only here but in other calculators often as well.

    Look at Asia map, those dots at the top. 19 must be Nenets. That's the highest I've seen in any Bosniak/Serb. Russians have 20-21-22 Four dots below, upper ones seem to be some Uralic peoples. Upper left are I think Komi, upper right are Mansy or Khanty. Bottom, one might be Erzya because I've seen Erzya scoring very high there, and the other I'm not sure is it East Russian, Tatar or other Ugric whatever because I've seen various groups scoring high there. But my scores there are highest or among the highest that can be found in Bosniaks/Serbs. So I'm closer to Erzya than Albanians here.

    At DNA.land I score 13 % Finnish

    K47 with some interesting components such as West Finnic, Volgan and in MDLP K33 Finno-Ugric

    Serb barbarylion you mentioned
    West Finnic 5.39%
    Volgan 0.04%
    Finno Ugric 0.12%

    Serb from Krajina, same clade as you. (Sunce) He's also more northern.
    Volgan 0.00%
    West Finnic 7.87%
    Finno Ugric 3.85%

    Russian woman
    Volgan 2.37%
    West Finnic 12.09%

    Serb E-Z19851
    Volgan 0.00%
    West Finnic 3.66%

    Bosniak, central Bosnia
    Finno Ugric 1.14%

    More Northern Serb
    Volgan 2.56%
    West Finnic 4.67%

    Serb R-U152
    West Finnic 7.94%
    Volgan 0.00%
    Finno Ugric 1.14%

    Serb Kosovo
    Volgan 1.91%
    West Finnic 1.56%


    Serb Bosnia
    West Finnic 7.14%
    Volgan 0.23%
    Finno Ugric 1.87%

    My score:
    West Finnic 7.90%
    Volgan 1.54%
    Finno Ugric 3.93 (I think more than majority of Hungarians)


    I most definitely have some elevated real Ugric admixture, that is not accidental because it repeats itself in different calculators.

    As I explained many times my E-V13 clade has no connection to Shqiptars, and if I share a single SNP with Russians/Easterners and that is a very real possibility because two of these clades share with mine an unusual STR value since at least 1500-2000 years ago and unusual STR mutation means likely shared mutation, then my Y-DNA has nothing to do with the huge majority of other V13's from Early Iron Age until Medieval times. It would be like an R-Z93 clade in its migrations and ancient peoples connections.
    Furthermore the evidence of some tribal traces I mentioned ultimately does point to descend of one group where some E-V13 might be expected to occur.

    Even if it doesn't it still is Carpathian (so likely Dacian).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    I took that nickname on Krstarica only for the joke. Once I was joking with one guy there that I am R1a-Z93.
    Honestly I don't like India and their culture and religion. I am not R1a-Z93, thanks God. That haplogroup doesn't exist among Serbs, unlike Bosniaks and Croatians. Bosniak Bećir from Bosanska Krajina is R1a-Z93, and he has Turkish origin for sure. Croatian guy from Lika who is R1a-Z93 is descendant of Lika Muslim convertits on Catholicism in late 17th century, and that means he also has Turkish paternal origin. If I am R1a-Z93 I would have Turkish or Jewish paternal line, I say again thanks God because I don't carry R1a-Z93.

    Btw my cousin by paternal line who live in diaspora was tested. I told that to few guys from Poreklo long time ago.
    Yes those Croats are surely of Turkish origin they have been written down as such. Other Croat had Jewish Z93.

    R-Z93 is the hg I like. I'll show you something.

    Attachment 11032

    These are pages of two of my numerous copybooks, bottom one is Ossetian, upper is Wakhi. Look at the dates, upper page was written by me in March 2016, the bottom September 2015, long before I ever posted anything at poreklo or here.. I love languages with so many "kh"/"h" sounds like one finds in Afro-Asiatic and Iranic as they had early shift s->kh.

    In Slavic it is solntse, sol etc. like in many other IE languages. In Ossetic it is Xur/Khur, s->x and l->r, sounds stronger, manlier..

    That is from Russian books, and then I chose to translate it in English, one can mostly learn those from the Russian only.

    Ossetic descends of Alanic and Wakhi descends of Saka, Wakhi is I believe closest to Ossetic. So few people speak. You see also carefully written Wakhi verbs in gold (Scythian gold) and most in red for a reason.. And I don't study language spoken by 58 000 people for no reason..

    This Bronze Age Bulgarian R-Z93
    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    #
    Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source)


    Distance
    1


    55.3%
    Finn_West ( ) + 44.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @


    6.4
    2


    78.7%
    Finn_West ( ) +


    21.3%
    Kalash ( ) @


    6.54
    3


    53.7%
    Finn_West ( ) +


    46.3%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @


    6.8
    4


    54.7%
    Swede_Saami ( ) +


    45.3%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @


    6.98
    5


    52%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    48%
    Swede ( ) @


    7.13
    6


    59.9%
    Finn_West ( ) +


    40.1%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) @


    7.19
    7


    76.9%
    Finn_West ( ) +


    23.1%
    Brahui ( ) @


    7.19
    8


    51.1%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    48.9%
    Dane ( ) @


    7.37
    9


    73.5%
    Finn_West ( ) +


    26.5%
    Makrani ( ) @


    7.39
    10


    77.8%
    Erzya ( ) +


    22.2%
    Kalash ( ) @


    7.41
    11


    59.3%
    Swede_Saami ( ) +


    40.7%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) @


    7.45
    12


    75.1%
    Finn_West ( ) +


    24.9%
    Balochi ( ) @


    7.46
    13


    53%
    Swede_Saami ( ) +


    47%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @


    7.54
    14


    53.8%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    46.2%
    Swede ( ) @


    7.54
    15


    78.7%
    Swede_Saami ( ) +


    21.3%
    Kalash ( ) @


    7.64
    16


    74.6%
    Russian-Upper-Volga ( ) +


    25.4%
    Kalash ( ) @


    7.65
    17


    52.7%
    Finn ( ) +


    47.3%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @


    7.72
    18


    53.4%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    46.6%
    Norwegian_East ( ) @


    7.72
    19


    54.6%
    Finn ( ) +


    45.4%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @


    7.76
    20


    55.4%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    44.6%
    Norwegian_West ( ) @


    7.79





    I0575 Ancient Sarmatian I0575 Early Sarmatian 500–100 R-Y21707* Southern Urals
    12


    50.1%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) +


    49.9%
    Icelandic ( ) @


    10.24
    13


    53.3%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    46.7%
    Icelandic ( ) @


    10.25
    14


    52.2%
    Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) +


    47.8%
    Norwegian_West ( ) @


    10.37


    DA136 Ancient Sarmatian Rostov R (R1a Z93?) , 1-100 AD


    1
    67.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    32.6%
    Udmurd ( ) @


    6.97
    2
    68.7% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) +


    31.3%
    Saami ( ) @


    7.2
    3
    66.9% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    33.1%
    Udmurd ( ) @


    7.73
    4
    65.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    34.3%
    Komi ( ) @


    7.85
    5
    63.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    36.7%
    Tatar ( ) @


    8
    6
    67.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    32.9%
    Komi ( ) @


    8.01
    7
    67.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    32.9%
    Chuvash ( ) @


    8.02
    8
    66.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    33.3%
    Finn ( ) @


    8.07
    9
    68.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    31.6%
    Chuvash ( ) @


    8.08
    10
    67.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    32.6%
    Bashkir ( ) @


    8.13
    11
    66.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    33.6%
    Tatar_Kryashen ( ) @


    8.13
    12
    75.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    24.9%
    Saami ( ) @


    8.18
    13
    72.8% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    27.2%
    Saami_Finland ( ) @


    8.23
    14
    64.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    35.3%
    Chuvashs ( ) @


    8.28
    15
    71.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    28.3%
    Mari ( ) @


    8.34
    16
    68.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    31.3%
    Saami_Kola ( ) @


    8.34
    17
    76.4% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) +


    23.6%
    Hakas ( ) @


    8.36
    18
    66.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    33.4%
    Russian-Ural ( ) @


    8.37
    19
    67.8% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    32.2%
    Finnish_FIN ( ) @


    8.39
    20
    67.2% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    32.8%
    Finn_East ( ) @


    8.4


    DA141 Ancient Sarmatian , Rostov Q-YP771 , 1-100 AD
    1
    64.7% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) + 35.3% Saami ( ) @


    6.51
    2
    60.2% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 39.8% Bashkir ( ) @


    7.01
    3
    61.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +38.4% Chuvash ( ) @


    7.02
    4
    60.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    39.7%
    Komi ( ) @


    7.03
    5
    63% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    37%
    Udmurd ( ) @


    7.04
    6
    55.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    44.7%
    Tatar ( ) @


    7.18
    7
    58.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    41.4%
    Komi ( ) @


    7.2
    8
    63% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    37%
    Saami_Kola ( ) @


    7.21
    9
    66.9% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    33.1%
    Saami_Finland ( ) @


    7.26
    10
    59.5% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    40.5%
    Finn ( ) @


    7.29
    11
    56.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    43.6%
    Chuvashs ( ) @


    7.31
    12
    54.6% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) +


    45.4%
    Bashkir ( ) @


    7.31
    13
    60% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    40%
    Chuvash ( ) @


    7.32
    14
    61.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    38.7%
    Saami_Kola ( ) @


    7.32
    15
    72.7% Tatar_Kryashen ( ) +


    27.3%
    Kalash ( ) @


    7.32
    16
    58.2% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    41.8%
    Chuvashs ( ) @


    7.34
    17
    58.8% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    41.2%
    Karelian ( ) @


    7.4
    18
    65.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    34.4%
    Mari ( ) @


    7.44
    19
    57.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) +


    42.7%
    Tatar ( ) @


    7.52
    20
    59.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) +


    40.6%
    Tatar_Kryashen ( ) @


    7.56


    I0247, Scythian, Samara 380-200 BC R-Z93>Z2123
    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance1 60.1% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) + 39.9% Saami ( ) @ 4.59
    2 55.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 44.3% Udmurd ( ) @ 5.76
    3 56.3% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) + 43.7% Saami_Finland ( ) @ 5.97
    4 74.8% Tatar_Kryashen ( ) + 25.2% Kalash ( ) @ 6.02
    5 53% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 47% Komi ( ) @ 6.24
    6 60.5% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 39.5% Saami_Finland ( ) @ 6.26
    7 51.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 48.4% Komi ( ) @ 6.27
    8 54.8% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 45.2% Chuvash ( ) @ 6.39
    9 78.2% Tatar ( ) + 21.8% Kalash ( ) @ 6.51
    10 58.9% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 41.1% Mari ( ) @ 6.56
    11 54.9% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 45.1% Saami_Kola ( ) @ 6.56
    12 53.5% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 46.5% Chuvash ( ) @ 6.56
    13 56.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 43.7% Saami_Kola ( ) @ 6.6
    14 50.3% Chuvashs ( ) + 49.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @ 6.88
    15 51.3% Tatar ( ) + 48.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @ 6.9
    16 50.2% Bashkir ( ) + 49.8% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) @ 6.96
    17 72.9% Tatar_Kryashen ( ) + 27.1% Brahui ( ) @ 7.01
    18 54.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 45.4% Udmurd ( ) @ 7.04
    19 51.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 48.9% Chuvashs ( ) @ 7.05
    20 53.5% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 46.5% Finn ( ) @ 7.06


    That is why Pamiri peoples pop out all the time, because they retain more original Scythian autosomal element as shown recently in a study. And they speak languages such as Wakhi (descended of Saka), Yagnobi (of Sogdian) etc. They absorbed local admixture but far less than neighboring groups. So having them for the first time in MDLP k23 is a very good measure to reflect Steppe Iranic autosomal component.

    Aspurgs MDLP K23 2 populations:
    1 93% Serb_BH ( ) + 7% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) @ 1.02
    2 92.5% Croat ( ) + 7.5% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) @ 1.13
    3 94.4% Serb_BH ( ) + 5.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @ 1.17
    4 94% Serb_BH ( ) + 6% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @ 1.19
    5 50.3% Russian_South ( ) + 49.7% Greek_Northwest ( )@ 1.25
    6 94.6% Bosnian ( ) + 5.4% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) @ 1.28
    7 94.9% Serb_BH ( ) + 5.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) @ 1.3
    8 93.6% Croat ( ) + 6.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @ 1.31
    9 94% Croat ( ) + 6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @1.33
    10 79.4% Hungarian_Budapest ( ) + 20.6% Crimean_Tatar_Coast ( ) @ 1.33
    11 53.8% Greek_Northwest ( ) + 46.2% Belarusian_South ( )@ 1.34
    12 95.4% Bosnian ( ) + 4.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @ 1.35
    13 95.7% Bosnian ( ) + 4.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @1.35
    14 51.6% Belarusian-East ( ) + 48.4% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 1.37
    15 95.1% Serb_BH ( ) + 4.9% Pashtun_Afghani ( ) @ 1.38
    16 65.7% Kashub ( ) + 34.3% Greek_Athens ( )@ 1.38
    17 55.7% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 44.3% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 1.39
    18 53% Russian_South ( ) + 47% Kosovar ( ) @ 1.39
    19 54.5% Ukrainian_East ( ) + 45.5% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 1.41
    20 94.5% Croat ( ) + 5.5% Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) @ 1.43


    I am modelled as almost ideally (distance 1.0-1.43) as a mix of what I am ethnically and a bit of Pamiris that is Saka/Sarmatian.. I'm quite close to Hungarians too, and I got there Crimean Tatar at 20 % (in 4 pops I get it all the time), though coastal Crimean Tatars are of course less "steppe" than some others.. When I get Kosovar who are most northern Albanians, then I'm Russian from the other side..
    I checked over 60, 70 results of other Serbs and Bosniaks, getting Pamiris is not common at all but happens here and there.

    So I got some autosomal justice for my studies, and ofc I want more if possible..

    I like Steppe peoples, because I respect those who expand, conquer, impose themselves regardless of their background..

  11. #1061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I agree with you for once. After all you and I are very likely related so you shouldn't join these t r o l l s against me. My Bosniak maternal paternal side very likely (not yet tested but strong documentary evidence exists) are from the vlach Ugarak tribe, and that is your grandmothers lineage right? But if so my mothers ancestry derives from the Ugarcic family befoe they entered Vlach status.

    My K36 Europe and Asia
    Attachment 11029

    Attachment 11030

    I'm closer here to Scandinavians than Albanians. Also I'm not so close to Montenegrins at all.. That is because I have no proper Montnegrin admixture. My side is from Lim river, first time this territory entered Montenegro was in 1912. And this area around Bihor had more of the old population. I'm closer to West Ukrainians than Montegrins, and not only here but in other calculators often as well.

    Look at Asia map, those dots at the top. 19 must be Nenets. That's the highest I've seen in any Bosniak/Serb. Russians have 20-21-22 Four dots below, upper ones seem to be some Uralic peoples. Upper left are I think Komi, upper right are Mansy or Khanty. Bottom, one might be Erzya because I've seen Erzya scoring very high there, and the other I'm not sure is it East Russian, Tatar or other Ugric whatever because I've seen various groups scoring high there. But my scores there are highest or among the highest that can be found in Bosniaks/Serbs. So I'm closer to Erzya than Albanians here.

    At DNA.land I score 13 % Finnish

    K47 with some interesting components such as West Finnic, Volgan and in MDLP K33 Finno-Ugric

    Serb barbarylion you mentioned
    West Finnic 5.39%
    Volgan 0.04%
    Finno Ugric 0.12%

    Serb from Krajina, same clade as you. (Sunce) He's also more northern.
    Volgan 0.00%
    West Finnic 7.87%
    Finno Ugric 3.85%

    Russian woman
    Volgan 2.37%
    West Finnic 12.09%

    Serb E-Z19851
    Volgan 0.00%
    West Finnic 3.66%

    Bosniak, central Bosnia
    Finno Ugric 1.14%

    More Northern Serb
    Volgan 2.56%
    West Finnic 4.67%

    Serb R-U152
    West Finnic 7.94%
    Volgan 0.00%
    Finno Ugric 1.14%

    Serb Kosovo
    Volgan 1.91%
    West Finnic 1.56%


    Serb Bosnia
    West Finnic 7.14%
    Volgan 0.23%
    Finno Ugric 1.87%

    My score:
    West Finnic 7.90%
    Volgan 1.54%
    Finno Ugric 3.93 (I think more than majority of Hungarians)


    I most definitely have some elevated real Ugric admixture, that is not accidental because it repeats itself in different calculators.

    As I explained many times my E-V13 clade has no connection to Shqiptars, and if I share a single SNP with Russians/Easterners and that is a very real possibility because two of these clades share with mine an unusual STR value since at least 1500-2000 years ago and unusual STR mutation means likely shared mutation, then my Y-DNA has nothing to do with the huge majority of other V13's from Early Iron Age until Medieval times. It would be like an R-Z93 clade in its migrations and ancient peoples connections.
    Furthermore the evidence of some tribal traces I mentioned ultimately does point to descend of one group where some E-V13 might be expected to occur.

    Even if it doesn't it still is Carpathian (so likely Dacian).
    My grandmother (father's mother) is from Dobrijević family. Dobrijevići are of same origin as Miljevići, Rokvići and Trninići. All of them are R1b-U152 and originated from Herzegovinian Ugarci who were in vlach social status.

    Dema tend to claim many nonsenses such as Vlach origin of Krajina Serbs (he think on Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites, not on social status vlachs) and Albanian origin of Serbs from southern Serbia. I agree with Dema only in his claim of Albanian origin of Sandžakian Muslims, majority of them are islamized Malesors.
    Krajina Serbs are least paleo-Balkanic influenced Serbs. They ploting more northern not only than Montenegrins and southern Serbs, but also than Serbs from central Serbia and Vojvodina.
    Here is full Barbarylion's K47 https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post5869751

    It's not surprise to me origin of your mother's family from Ugarci. Many Bosnian Muslims originated from Herzegovinian vlachs (social status). Ottomans settled them to Bosnia and gave them land and privilegies for conversion on Islam.
    I bealive large part of I2a-Din among Bosnian Muslims is related with islamized Herzegovinian vlach. I2a-Din has a peak in Hergegovina where is stronger than in Bosnia. Dema's claim of 53% I2a-Din among Bosnian Muslims is outdated and came from small sample. Bosnian Muslims are more like 43% I2a-Din https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-(273-samples)
    Among Muslims from Bosanska Krajina I2a-Din is lower than average, it's 37-38%. Except lower I2a-Din Bosanska Krajina Muslims have higher J2b1-M205 and N-P189.2 than other BiH Muslims. They also have some exotic hapogroups related with Anatolia in smaller % which doesn't exist among other BiH Muslims.

    Your Finno-Ugric score might be related with islamized Hungarians. In late 17th century a lot of Muslim refugees from Hungary, Vojvodina and Slavonia arrived to Bosnia. Some of them were probably islamized Hungarians, and some of them setlled to Central Bosnia. Of course, it's well known that vast majority of them settled to northern and northeastern Bosnia.
    What is your K13 Eurogenes and K12b Dodecad?

    Here is result of full Montenegrin (very typical Montenegrin result), higher paleo-Balkanic dna than among Serbs (outside of Montenegro) is clear https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...Dmatch-results

  12. #1062
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Autosomal DNA doesn't mean anything, guys. Can change from generation to generation drastically. My cousin here under R-Y82919 (ID YF18835) is almost pure Saudi Arabian autosomally speaking: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y82919/


    I have to say, Aspurg, you have really motivated me to find you a Malesor within your subclade

  13. #1063
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Get a life ffs, stop spamming, we all know your a šiptar

    Btw yesterday i was in Novi Pazar, today im in Prishtine.

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  14. #1064
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post

    Dema tend to claim many nonsenses such as Vlach origin of Krajina Serbs (he think on Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites, not on social status vlachs) and Albanian origin of Serbs from southern Serbia. I agree with Dema only in his claim of Albanian origin of Sandžakian Muslims, majority of them are islamized Malesors
    You understood it wrongly, i said these that are known as Vlachs in Bosnia and Croatia, or more precisely Serbs. Are definitely more noticeable in higher Albano Vlah haplogroups like higher Ev13, J2 and R1b then their neighbors like Croats, Slovens or Bosnian Catholics/Muslims.

    They dont look Vlach in origin but rather serbicized Albanians probably from South Serbia and Montenegro. At least when talking about these specific haplogroups.

    I hope you do understand That for example Bosnian Serbs have way higher Ev13 percentage then Muslims or Catholics.

    Also their I2a1 is way lower to compare to Muslims or Catholics.

    They are 14 century emigrants from Ottoman time and they even declared as Vlachs before

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    Last edited by Dema; 15-05-19 at 11:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    My grandmother (father's mother) is from Dobrijević family. Dobrijevići are of same origin as Miljevići, Rokvići and Trninići. All of them are R1b-U152 and originated from Herzegovinian Ugarci who were in vlach social status.


    Dema tend to claim many nonsenses such as Vlach origin of Krajina Serbs (he think on Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites, not on social status vlachs) and Albanian origin of Serbs from southern Serbia. I agree with Dema only in his claim of Albanian origin of Sandžakian Muslims, majority of them are islamized Malesors.
    Krajina Serbs are least paleo-Balkanic influenced Serbs. They ploting more northern not only than Montenegrins and southern Serbs, but also than Serbs from central Serbia and Vojvodina.
    Here is full Barbarylion's K47 https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post5869751


    It's not surprise to me origin of your mother's family from Ugarci. Many Bosnian Muslims originated from Herzegovinian vlachs (social status). Ottomans settled them to Bosnia and gave them land and privilegies for conversion on Islam.
    I bealive large part of I2a-Din among Bosnian Muslims is related with islamized Herzegovinian vlach. I2a-Din has a peak in Hergegovina where is stronger than in Bosnia. Dema's claim of 53% I2a-Din among Bosnian Muslims is outdated and came from small sample. Bosnian Muslims are more like 43% I2a-Din https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-(273-samples)
    Among Muslims from Bosanska Krajina I2a-Din is lower than average, it's 37-38%. Except lower I2a-Din Bosanska Krajina Muslims have higher J2b1-M205 and N-P189.2 than other BiH Muslims. They also have some exotic hapogroups related with Anatolia in smaller % which doesn't exist among other BiH Muslims.


    Your Finno-Ugric score might be related with islamized Hungarians. In late 17th century a lot of Muslim refugees from Hungary, Vojvodina and Slavonia arrived to Bosnia. Some of them were probably islamized Hungarians, and some of them setlled to Central Bosnia. Of course, it's well known that vast majority of them settled to northern and northeastern Bosnia.
    What is your K13 Eurogenes and K12b Dodecad?


    Here is result of full Montenegrin (very typical Montenegrin result), higher paleo-Balkanic dna than among Serbs (outside of Montenegro) is clear https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...Dmatch-results

    Yes I know those Krajina families descend of Ugarci, nearby there are some Bosniak Ugarci they likely descend of them. But my mothers family is a different thing. They seem to descend of the family of Bogcin son of knez Stipko Ugarcic from Vrhbosna area in 15th century. They likely arrived there in late 14th century, and in 1462 this family was the first case of islamization in Bosnia, because Ottomans took the Vrhbosna before other areas of Bosnia.


    My mothers family were very powerful in Sarajevo in early 19th century and 18th century and before that time they had a link with fort of Hodidjed (Hodidid accurately because ikavian was used at that time), and this link seems to go to Medieval time.


    Sandzak Bosniaks are dominately of Malesor origin, especially the Eastern part. In the Western parts that is not the case but alot more of them live in the East.


    Yes I know there were some Hungarians coming in, some families still have Hungarian surnames. Janjoš in Sarajevo for ex. Also some Bosniaks have some unusual R1b U106 clades, maybe some of those are connected with Hungarians but deeper tests are required. I haven't checked whether Hungarians have them.


    Btw Ugarak clan was sometimes connected with Hungarians because of their name (Ugri- Ugar), but that does not seem to be the case. But that clade is very interesting. Very distant relatives are found in Crete, Asia Minor Greeks, Bulgaria and SW Romania. Might be part of Illyrian-Dorian connection.


    Yes Montenegrin result is more typical. Autosomally I think I've seen one Albanian cousin, even Bosnian Serbs get a few, but when I looked at one Bjelopavlic he had like 7-8 Albanian relatives in top 50.. That illustrates ofc that Bjelopavlici lived in the neigbourhod of Albanians.


    Dodecad K12b
    #
    Population
    Percent
    1 North_European 43.94
    2 Atlantic_Med 25.82
    3 Caucasus 21.02
    4 Southwest_Asian 3.92
    5 Gedrosia 2.44
    6 South_Asian 2.06
    7 Southeast_Asian 0.58
    8 Northwest_African 0.21


    My Eurogenes K13
    #
    Population


    Percent
    1
    Baltic 34.08
    2
    North_Atlantic 25.49
    3
    West_Med 15.5
    4
    East_Med 13.79
    5
    West_Asian 7.39
    6
    South_Asian 1.48
    7
    Northeast_African 0.88
    8
    Amerindian 0.69
    9
    East_Asian 0.43
    10
    Oceanian 0.27

    #
    Population (source)


    Distance
    1
    Moldavian 4.34
    2
    Croatian 4.78
    3
    Serbian 7.19
    4
    Hungarian 7.68
    5
    Romanian 10.28
    6
    Ukrainian_Lviv 10.91
    7
    South_Polish 11.42
    8
    Ukrainian 11.68
    9
    Bulgarian 12.01
    10
    Austrian 12.02
    11
    East_German 12.32
    12
    Polish 14.83
    13
    Southwest_Russian 15.03
    14
    Ukrainian_Belgorod 15.43
    15
    Russian_Smolensk 16.84
    16
    Estonian_Polish 17.18
    17
    Belorussian 17.8
    18
    West_German 19.05
    19
    Kargopol_Russian 19.34
    20
    Southwest_Finnish 20.45

    Very different from that Montenegrin.. Again Moldovans up there for me..


    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Autosomal DNA doesn't mean anything, guys. Can change from generation to generation drastically. My cousin here under R-Y82919 (ID YF18835) is almost pure Saudi Arabian autosomally speaking: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y82919/

    Sure it does change but those who have more compact origin have their own particular autosomal affinity, there are some regional autosomal variations. He arrived there likely in late Medieval times, however if he had arrived as part of some group that kept themselves a bit isolated, he would have shown likely still a little of balkan ancestry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    I have to say, Aspurg, you have really motivated me to find you a Malesor within your subclade

    Ah be my guest, but as already quite a bit of Albanians have been tested not so likely, likely would not matter much either especially if he'd be from Komani . On the other hand when alot more Romanians get tested then you will see a difference 100 % with my own clade too.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Actually as far as Malesia e Madhe is concerned, we have barely scratched the surface

    We only have like one or two samples from the major tribes. There are many minor tribes and composite tribes like Gruda, Koja, Trieshi, Kastrati etc up there that we need to test more thoroughly. Hopefully this year we can send someone up there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    That is not proven. No Thracian E-V13 has been found until now, only one E-Z1919. We don't know if it was E-V13+ or not. On the other hand, E-L618, which is even closer to E-V13, has been found in Croatia. The earliest E-V13 found so far is an autosomally Balkan IA Scythian. Later E-V13s were found in Spain and Hungary, also autosomally Balkan.

    In any case, the E-V13 TMRCA lived ~4800 years ago, ages before the Thracians, so if you mean that all E-V13 was Thracian, or that it started with the Thracians, that cannot be the case. Thracians probably had certain subclades, just like other IA Balkan peoples.
    Thank you for clarifying it to me. I thought they did found Ev13 in Tracian tombs. So far, what is the Tracian Y-dna and proto Tracian either, which we have already?

    About Ev13 I presumed that it may have been introduced into Albanians via Illyrians as long as Albanians lack the Tracian R-Z93, which is the core of IE element in Tracians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Thank you for clarifying it to me. I thought they did found Ev13 in Tracian tombs. So far, what is the Tracian Y-dna and proto Tracian either, which we have already?

    About Ev13 I presumed that it may have been introduced into Albanians via Illyrians as long as Albanians lack the Tracian R-Z93, which is the core of IE element in Tracians
    I am not entirely sure R1a-Z93 is the core element there. It could be, but it is still too early to tell. But it is entirely possible that Thracians included several distinct IE lines, both R1b and R1a. Everyone seems to forget that there are more than around 1000 years between IE migrations and the Thracians as a people that the Ancient Greek authors mention. During that time, any possible combination of Y-DNA lines could have melted and assimilated each-other into making one people.

    It is good to keep in mind what Balkan aDNA we have so far. This is it, for 5000-0 BCE, if I have not forgotten any:


    5000-1000 BCE Bulgaria Croatia Serbia Greece
    I2a2a1b x4 J2a1 G2a2a1 x2 J2a1 x3
    I2a2 G2a2a1 G2a2a1
    G2a2b2 x2 R1b-Z2103
    R1b-L753 J2b-L283
    H2
    R1a-Z93
    1000 - 0 BCE
    E-Z1919 (Thracian)


    As, I mentioned above, there is an E-L716 from Dalmatia, but it is older than 5000 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    What I mean is people like Bachus. He registered on a Serbian forum krstarica with a nickname "krishna" and he claimed there that he is some R-Z93, he never tested but is likely I2a clade. And here he is posting everywhere any single Serb who has high Slavic autosomal score and he acts as if he had won a lottery.







    I agree, it is useless and it stops. My E-V13 is in many ways unusual. It does have plenty of distantly related Albanians generally Z17107 is very diverse North of Danube. I haven't tried to make a similar thesis for some others because it is not possible. But I've worked alone for the most part, and when some more people get involved soon that is going to make a difference.


    I said clearly that E-v13 is Illyrian too. It must be because it has a strong presence and diversity too in some Illyrian areas but in the global picture.
    Some CTS1273 clades
    Z5017 has strong diversity of basal clades in Bulgaria, stronger than in Albanians (just remember the paternal clade to CTS9320 and some parallel clades: basal BY4684 (Z19851, without any close link to another such cluster found in some Romanians, Greeks, and one Albanian), as well as Z9851 now at YFull who has dys390=24 (modal for that cluster is 25)
    Z5018 has strong diversity of basal clades in Bulgaria, stronger than in Albanians. No Z5018 basal clade Albanians have is absent in Bulgarians. Two of Bulgarian basal Z5018 clades are absent in Albanians.
    S7461 has strong diversity of basal clades in Bulgaria, much stronger than in Albanians
    Y16729 has strong diversity of basal clades in Bulgaria (one Macedonian is of Vlach cluster from there), does not exist in Albanians

    You had more deep tested Albanians but Bulgarians are restarting again.


    But PH1246 has no presence whatsoever in Bulgarians, has relatively strong presence in Serbs/Croats, and minor in Greeks and Albanians. Indicating it's more Western orientation. This indicates that E-V13 is not native in Bulgaria but that E-CTS1273 arrived in numbers there about 4000 ybp.


    There are few deep tested Romanians which is a big problem, so it needs to be seen what are their connections here.
    There are indications from sutdies that PH1246 might be very diverse in Moldavia also.


    As I said there were some contact cultures in the area and they are very good candidates for various Albanian V13's. Did I not say that I think majority of Dardanians might have been E-V13? Dardanians were Illyrian but they were also a unique population, their kingdom was always separate from the Illyrian kingdom





    By that logic very little is proven. Slavic I2a is also not proven, and how can it possibly even be "proven" as Slavs practiced cremation and so have generally most Thracian/Moesian/Dacian groups. And yet I2a Din is Slavic..
    What's your point ? Are you claiming that Albanians are a Daco/Carpian offspring?

    There's not any Z93 presence today in Albanians.

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    lol at Aspurg admitting Kuçi, Bjelopavlici, Lakic from Croatia, Sanxhaks and others as Albanians thinking that will suffice and his haplo will be spared. This is not marketplace and we already know they are Albanians. Just as you were albanophone most likely prior to slavicization.

    Are you claiming that you are from South Serbia, you are Ev13 and you have brother clades among Albanians and major clade inside your clade is Albanian, do you say all that is accident?

    We are not trading here, you can push to us these that we already know they are of Albanian origin but also we have sufficient proves to claim your clade also.

    Btw spare us of lies that some Berisha had called me names or anything. Or that i have anything against Ev13 or against you. All of these are childish excuses that have no value at all.


    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    What's your point ? Are you claiming that Albanians are a Daco/Carpian offspring?


    There's not any Z93 presence today in Albanians.

    I know Z93 presence around Balkans. For some Karpëan descend an Albanian clade would have to share SNP with Karpëathians at about 1800-2000 ybp, and the clade would have to have more diversity in Karpëathians. And thus far only such case is a Szekely who belongs to E-Y161798 (454=12) but one haplotype there is not enough plus without more STR's/BigY his distance to others in unknown. There exists come unusual V13 clade up there as well as in Bulgaria with very high dys458=19/20 (like BY4461) but these have dys447=26 (not typical for CTS9320) and GATAH4=11, (not 12 like almost all BY4461). At FTDNA they consider them BY4461 candidates, but they could be also CTS9320- who mutated up to 20.

    So thus far no real Karpëan candidates in Albanians..

    P.S. Karpë is "rocky hill with sharp peak" and Carpathians are plenty of those no? So you might find some eventually..


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Are you claiming that you are from South Serbia, you are Ev13 and you have brother clades among Albanians and major clade inside your clade is Albanian, do you say all that is accident?

    3000 years away, all those. But I have far closer brother clade in Cumania, Pechenegce and near Kumanica 1 (in Bijelo Polje) and Kumanica 2 (in Rudnik area).

    It is a bit accidental that my ancestors came from the Shop in 13th century during this 1253 Bulgarian raid.. Otherwise this clade would have stayed confined to Shop and no one could have considered it Westernbalkanoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Btw spare us of lies that some Berisha had called me names or anything. Or that i have anything against Ev13 or against you. All of these are childish excuses that have no value at all.
    Did he? I read that somewhere (I saw that in a post of Bachus). And Berisha is Berisha, it's your former President/PM's family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Actually as far as Malesia e Madhe is concerned, we have barely scratched the surface

    We only have like one or two samples from the major tribes. There are many minor tribes and composite tribes like Gruda, Koja, Trieshi, Kastrati etc up there that we need to test more thoroughly. Hopefully this year we can send someone up there.
    In the study Mirabal et al. with 404 Montenegrin haplotypes at 17 STR's, there are 7 E-BY4461. I think they have been quite rare of those Montenegrins tested thus far so they might be Albanians from Tuzi area. In this sample percentage of E-V13 was elevated at 26.5 %. Majority of V13 seem to be large tribal bottlenecks:
    27 Kuchi, 21 Vasojevici, 11 Bjelopavlici and 7 Bjelice (E-Z19851). These four are 16.5 % so 62 % of V13. There were 2 of my cousins but with identical haplotype to me, so nothing unusual.

    These bottlenecks do elevate percentage, which applies to other haplogroups too (21 Ozrinic PH908 for example).

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    These old shots in the dark in the post I quote below have been all debunked.
    Nice try idiot, but you were damn wrong.

    This is great to observe who is biased against Albanians, just by checking old posts like this one, and I'm sure they haven't changed their minds yet, despite all genetic proof presented before them.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    I think good roots for tribal name are in general: religion related terms, weapons used, or some legendary ruler....

    possible ruler whose name Geghs carry may be Gyges ruler of Lydia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

    I have idea that stories of Gyges may be about E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste ...as Gyges was shepard unrelated to royal bloodlines and did overthrow the previous king...that might even explain attacks of I2a2 Cimmerians on country of Gyges.... note that Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...which may be about related E haplogroup people....






    this would make I2a2 proto-Serbs and E-V13 Albanian Geghs sworn enemies long time in past, and perhaps even explain why there is almost no I2a2 in Geghs while it is present in all other Balkan people...

    Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....

    movement of Tosks from Lydia to Balkan happened at unknown time, but might be related with the hole in spread of J2b in Lydia.... when they left Lydia, the vacated space was settled by people of some other haplogroups which made a hole in spread of J2b in Asia minor and hotspot of it in south Albania...


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    8 years ago, as opposed to the various hysteric, 2-digit IQ South Slavic lightbulbs that still post today.

    Some Westerner got it right already back then:


    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post




    Sure there is evidence, STR dating and diversity analysis, which points to a first millennium CE spread of I2a-Din-S, and indicates that I2a-Din-N is older. That places the center of diversity close to Belarus, not the Balkans, as we would expect if the Illyrians were the initial carriers. This is pretty well established among people who have analyzed Haplogroup I STR data. Ken Nordtvedt likes a first millennium spread via the Slavs, which seems reasonable to me. Try to do some research instead of assuming that we are using "fantasy thinking and logic."



    Go ahead and make your point instead of expecting me to make it for you, because I don't know what you're getting at. The Balkans don't seem to be a special case of geographic isolation.
    Btw, loled at I2a-Din back then being designated I2a2. I2a2 doesn't exist in South Slavs, but in Albanians and Greeks.

    I2a-Din = I2a1b-CTS10228


    This thread is long overdue and the chapter needs to be closed, for all good reasons.

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    Ok Parapolitikos, here is the right thread where you can explain this your alternative point of view of history.
    Here is your post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Many Albanians indeed suffer from ultranationalism induced fantasies. History , though,tells us another story, that the genetic influence was the other way around.
    A very small nation(300 000 people 200 years ago based on ottoman censuses) that constantly was fed with the genetics of its neighbors due to Islam and the ottoman military structures.
    Muslim Albanians were defacto the ruling class of much of the lower Balkans. Turks entrusted them , as kinds of subcontractors, to keep the ''law and order'' in the region. Aside from the incorporation of most Muslim converts in the (usually of mixed populations, other than the northern Albania) areas where Albanians lived into the Albanian ethnic group (in the albanian dominated pashaliks, Yanena and scutari,and rumeli eyalet in general) the child harvest , known as paidomazoma/yenitsaroi with Greeks and Janissaries in english, abducted and converted to Islam hundreds of thousands of children over the 300 years of the institution. In the Areas that Albanians ruled, those Janissaries corps were incorporated into the Albanian nation (due to the Muslim faith). Thus the peculiarities of Albanian Islam which was traditionally heavily influenced from the Bektashi order(yenissaries were all followers of that sect) due to the enormous impact of those corps to the Albanian society and ethnic group.
    And here is my answer for the moment:
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Your post is full of lies and completely of-topic. And you are not the first member in this thread who spread disinformation and attack the Albanians. The reason is that you suffer from ultranationalism that induce you to these fantasies. Find another thread where you can defend your opinion, always if you are able to do it, because as i said, you are of-topic here.
    Now, tell us, what`s the story?
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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