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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

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    Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Ok Parapolitikos, here is the right thread where you can explain this your alternative point of view of history.
    Here is your post:


    And here is my answer for the moment:


    Now, tell us, what`s the story?
    Ottomans considered Greeks Rayahs and did not recruit them in military service.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayah

    While the elite Corp of Jennisaries according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, "in early days, all Christians were enrolled indiscriminately. Later, those from Albania, Bosnia, and Bulgaria were preferred.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries

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    Ottomans considered Greeks Rayahs and did not recruit them in military service.
    Of course they did. Most Greek revolutionary leaders were Armatoloi in the service of the Albanian controlled pashaliks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armatoloi

    While the elite Corp of Jennisaries according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, "in early days, all Christians were enrolled indiscriminately. Later, those from Albania, Bosnia, and Bulgaria were preferred.
    So what? it lasted for 300 years and at this period greek kids were the main ethnicity that the ottomans recruited from.
    Taking in mind that their numbers were always in the tens of thousands, that in fact means that the total number of kids abducted over the centuries were in the hundreds of thousands.
    The Albanian pashaliks had a key role in the ''recruitment'' and taking in mind that circa 1800 Albanians weren't more than 500 000(in fact much less), the ''blood loan'' impact of those christian children was ENORMOUS to the genetics of the albanian nation. AS i said most likely because of Janissaries the Bektashis were a formidable community in Albania(probably the majority of muslim at some point in albania proper) all the way untill the commounist era and that inspite the ottoman violent persecution of them in the aftermath of the Ottoman-Albanian wars of the early 19th century.
    Then you had conversions to Islam, which in what is today Fyrom, Kosovo, Albanian(and northern epirus) , and south Epirus meant incorporation into the Albanian nation, in the same manner that Becoming Muslim meant becoming Turk in much of the rest of rumeli. How many Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs by converting to islam were eventually albanized, none can say with certainty, but the genetic similarity of Albanians at each respective place with their Christian(non Albanian) neighbors tells us that in must have been extensive.
    Then you had ''adult slave soldiers'' like the late ottoman Mamluk corps. They too were of christian origins that ''embraced'' Islam as a mean of eventually gaining their freedom. Their numbers were so great that they were able to wrestle away from the Sultan most of North Africa(where many were sent to serve as ottoman troops)
    And we haven't spoken of the ''blood loans'' due to females yet.
    In summary, the Albanian nation , as i said before, it was shaped by the ''blood loans'' it received, and none of what i reported it can be challenged by a serious person with sufficient historical knowledge. That was how things worked in the ottoman times . All those i wrote are pretty much, historical facts!

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    Big change on YFull tree of V13! At last BY3880 was recognized (as it is at FTDNA) as being parallel to L540 and E-Y35953/Z16663, however the Ossetian cluster is BY3880-!! 2 Ossetians in this cluster are 9/37 (others have less STR's) so it has some age among them.

    BY3880 is very widespread and diverse in the Balkans as well.
    Z16663 is also present in Asia Minor Greeks, Central Europe (I can vouch few Romanians there as well), West Balkans etc.
    And last 2 are more interesting: Central Europe and Ossetia.
    And atm these separated 4500 ybp. Possible there will be more tweaks..

    TMRCA of BY3880 (87 % of V13 at YFull) dropped to 3800 ybp, while the BY3880, L540, Z16663 and Ossetian cluster separated 4500 ybp. Also TMRCA of PH1246 dropped to 4100 ybp. Also BY3880- is ERS1789480 who is some Ashkenazi.

    This new Skrapar Albanian is atm 2200 ybp away from Bjelopavlici. Also Balkan Z19851 have been grouped, but the analysis for Bulgarian is not yet complete and he has dys390=24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Of course they did. Most Greek revolutionary leaders were Armatoloi in the service of the Albanian controlled pashaliks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armatoloi


    So what? it lasted for 300 years and at this period greek kids were the main ethnicity that the ottomans recruit from.
    Taking in mind that their numbers were always in the tens of thousands, that in fact means that the total number of kids abducted were in the hundreds of thousands.
    The Albanian pashaliks had a key role in ''recruitment'' and taking in mind that circa 1800 Albanians weren't more than 500 000(in fact much less), the ''blood loan'' impact of the christian children was ENORMOUS to the genetics of the albanian nation.
    Then you had conversions to Islam, which in what is today Fyrom, Kosovo, Albanian(and northern epirus) , and south Epirus meant incorporation into the Albanian nation, in the same manner that Becoming Muslim meant becoming Turk in much of the rest of rumeli. How many Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs by converting to islam were eventually albanized, none can say with certainty, but the genetic similarity of Albanians at each respective place with their Christian(non Albanian) neighbors tells us that in must have been extensive.
    Then you had ''adult slave soldiers'' like the late ottoman Mamluk corps. They too were of christian origins that ''embraced'' Islam as a mean of eventually gaining their freedom. Their numbers were so great that they were able to wrestle from the Sultan most of North Africa(where many were sent to serve as ottoman troops)
    And we haven't spoken of the ''blood loans'' due to females yet.
    In summary, the Albanian nation , as i said before, it was shaped by the ''blood loans'' it received, and none of what i reported it can be actually be challendged by a serious person with historical knowledge. That was how things worked in the ottoman times . All those are pretty much, historical FACTS!
    This is incorrect. Based on autosomal DNA and IBD sharing Albanians are pretty distinct from their neighbours and are very homogeneous, the only noticeable input is from the Slavic migrations which date back all the way to the Medieval period, and in most cases this input doesn't exceed 20%. When it comes to Y-DNA haplogroups there isn't any major foreign input, Slavic lineages only reach about 14%. Greek input is virtually non-existent based on current data, even Germanic input is more significant at around 9%.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    This is incorrect. Based on autosomal DNA and IBD sharing Albanians are pretty distinct from their neighbours and are very homogeneous, the only noticeable input is from the Slavic migrations which date back all the way to the Medieval period, and in most cases this input doesn't exceed 20%. When it comes to Y-DNA haplogroups there isn't any major foreign input, Slavic lineages only reach about 14%. Greek input is virtually non-existent based on current data, even Germanic input is more significant at around 9%.
    Of course he is incorrect but let give some time to this guy to quote some credible source in order to prove his claims.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    This is incorrect. Based on autosomal DNA and IBD sharing Albanians are pretty distinct from their neighbours and are very homogeneous, the only noticeable input is from the Slavic migrations which date back all the way to the Medieval period, and in most cases this input doesn't exceed 20%. When it comes to Y-DNA haplogroups there isn't any major foreign input, Slavic lineages only reach about 14%. Greek input is virtually non-existent based on current data, even Germanic input is more significant at around 9%.
    You are speaking on a national level. I was talking about regional populations. Kossovo Albanians compared with Kossovo Serbs(although that is impossible now), Fyrom slavs with the Albanian communities next door. Montenegrin Slavs with Montenegrin Albanians(muslim). South Albanian Mulsims with Ipirote Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    You are speaking on a national level. I was talking about regional populations. Kossovo Albanians compared with Kossovo Serbs(although that is impossible now), Fyrom slavs with the Albanian communities next door. Montenegrin Slavs with Montenegrin Albanians(muslim). South Albanian Mulsims with Ipirote Greeks.
    Wrong. Most Albanians tested from all areas are genetically closely compact and homogeneous. Even papers have illustrated the high IBD sharing Albanians have. It is actually the reverse. Migrations of Albanians, Vlachs, and Slavs settled in Greece during the early to late middle ages. This is why Bulgarians cluster with Greeks and Northern Greeks to some degree with Albanians/Bulgarians/Macedonians which are quite removed from Southern Pelopoenssian Greeks. Were ancestry coming from the direction from Greece there would be no difference between the north and south of Greece. Also, large amounts of Anatolian Greeks were resettled in Greece after Muslim Greeks were expelled to the black sea coast of Turkey. This is why Island Greeks are genetically far removed from mainland Greeks. Albanians have always based things on blood ties.

    Greeks are the opposite, considering Anatolian Greeks who are only Greeks in name were accepted while full blooded Muslim Greeks were expelled. For Greeks religion is identity not blood. This is why we are homogeneous and you are more heterogeneous than we. Illustrating the varying genetic inputs you received and the homogeneous ties Albanians have. On both autosomal/YDNA level Greeks are for more diverse at present.

    Mixing occurred on all sides of course. However, you're over exaggerating it in the case of Albanians for obvious reasons. You were already given a infraction warning in another thread for your inflammatory comments towards Albanians. It's obvious where your head is at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Of course they did. Most Greek revolutionary leaders were Armatoloi in the service of the Albanian controlled pashaliks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armatoloi


    So what? it lasted for 300 years and at this period greek kids were the main ethnicity that the ottomans recruited from.
    Taking in mind that their numbers were always in the tens of thousands, that in fact means that the total number of kids abducted over the centuries were in the hundreds of thousands.
    The Albanian pashaliks had a key role in the ''recruitment'' and taking in mind that circa 1800 Albanians weren't more than 500 000(in fact much less), the ''blood loan'' impact of those christian children was ENORMOUS to the genetics of the albanian nation. AS i said most likely because of Janissaries the Bektashis were a formidable community in Albania(probably the majority of muslim at some point in albania proper) all the way untill the commounist era and that inspite the ottoman violent persecution of them in the aftermath of the Ottoman-Albanian wars of the early 19th century.
    Then you had conversions to Islam, which in what is today Fyrom, Kosovo, Albanian(and northern epirus) , and south Epirus meant incorporation into the Albanian nation, in the same manner that Becoming Muslim meant becoming Turk in much of the rest of rumeli. How many Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs by converting to islam were eventually albanized, none can say with certainty, but the genetic similarity of Albanians at each respective place with their Christian(non Albanian) neighbors tells us that in must have been extensive.
    Then you had ''adult slave soldiers'' like the late ottoman Mamluk corps. They too were of christian origins that ''embraced'' Islam as a mean of eventually gaining their freedom. Their numbers were so great that they were able to wrestle away from the Sultan most of North Africa(where many were sent to serve as ottoman troops)
    And we haven't spoken of the ''blood loans'' due to females yet.
    In summary, the Albanian nation , as i said before, it was shaped by the ''blood loans'' it received, and none of what i reported it can be challenged by a serious person with sufficient historical knowledge. That was how things worked in the ottoman times . All those i wrote are pretty much, historical facts!
    Sorry to interrompe your diarrhea. Just my two cents about the rayah inhabitants who lived during the Ottoman Empire in what is today called Greece:

    I want to draw your attention to two moments:
    A Greek Minister (one of the pretended "coryphees" of liberalism and of extension of the kingdom) told lately a friend of mine:
    "les Grecs d'aujourd'hui sont des Turcs chrétiens et il faut les gouverner a la Turque".

    Translated with Google:
    "The Greeks of today are Christian Turks and we must govern them a la Turkish".
    And here you have the second moment of our interest:
    As distincly proved by Professor Fallmerayer, whose judgment is very correct. - The Greek of Byzantine and mixed descent is considered "fair pray" by the hardiest race of Slavic blood the same by the Albanian. - The latter even when a Mussulman, respect and fears the Christian of pure Albanian blood, in fact the people of both creeds often intermarry and mostly live unmolested in each other`s neighbourhood, but the Mussulman Albanian opresses, insults, robs and ill-treats the Christian Rayah of mixed descent living in the plains of Thessaly, Macedonia, Moesia, etc.
    This feeling of supremacy of the Albanian is so general that i saw in Greece Grivas and other chieftains of epirote descent that treat the mixed Byzantines of the Morea with outmost arrogance, calling them, even after the conclusion of the war, Rayahs and "Barbatches" (synonymus with "Fellahs") in contradistiction to the followers of the Capitani themselves, who are "Rumeliote Palicares" or "Albanian Soldiers".

    Source: "The Syrian War and the Decline of the Ottoman Empire, 1840-1848: In Reports, Documents, and ..."

    If you want i can quote plenty of other first hand testimony of who really were "Greeks" 200 years ago before the invention of the Greek nation by the Great Powers.
    But let return to your posts. The only thing that deserve attention in your post when you talk about Albanians:

    A very small nation(300 000 people 200 years ago based on ottoman censuses) that constantly was fed with the genetics of its neighbors due to Islam and the ottoman military structures.
    We have plenty of sources who tell us that large part of the territory of your country were called Albania. And biggest ethnic group in your country for many centuries were the Albanians. 200 years ago there was no Greek nation, but simply a bunch of "Barbatches", a social strata, the lowest, of mongrel rayahs. I can prove my claims. Can you prove your claim about Albanians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    You are speaking on a national level. I was talking about regional populations. Kossovo Albanians compared with Kossovo Serbs(although that is impossible now), Fyrom slavs with the Albanian communities next door. Montenegrin Slavs with Montenegrin Albanians(muslim). South Albanian Mulsims with Ipirote Greeks.
    There you are wrong again. Kosovo Albanians, Montenegrin Albanians and Macedonian Albanians have hardly any autosomal relation to their Slavic neighbours who plot with other South Slavic groups. The closest South Slavs to Albanians in terms of autosomal admix are Macedonians but that is purely because of how they have large amounts of Palaeo-Balkanic admix compared to other Slavs. Eastern Montenegrins have some relation to Albanians but that is due to some of them being of Albanian origin. In terms of Y-DNA haplogroups, Slavic lineages only account for about 10% of the lineages present among these Albanians. South Albanians aren't all that similar to Greeks apart from the autosomal relation, which all Albanians have with Greeks and is due to a Palaeo-Balkanic source. Greek Y-DNA haplogroups are almost non-existent.

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    If anything its Albanians who donated to create other nations and not the other way around.

    Greek nation is made out of assimilating Albanians, Slavs and Turks with addition of few original Greeks.

    Even Osli said that in Greece Slavs with names like Slobodan and Milosh were taking Greek names like Christos and Dimitris and its how modern Greek nation was created.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    You are speaking on a national level. I was talking about regional populations. Kossovo Albanians compared with Kossovo Serbs(although that is impossible now), Fyrom slavs with the Albanian communities next door. Montenegrin Slavs with Montenegrin Albanians(muslim). South Albanian Mulsims with Ipirote Greeks.
    Kosovo Serbs and Montendgrins (both ploting more southern than other Serbs) are far away from Albanians autosomally, even from Albanians from Montenegro and Kosovo.

    Here are results of one Kosovo Serb (I2-PH908).



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    Kosovo Serbs and Montendgrins (both ploting more southern than other Serbs) are far away from Albanians autosomally, even from Albanians from Montenegro and Kosovo.
    Far away would be the distance between a Serb and an Irish.
    Those result are pretty closed to the one you would get from Albanians of same regions.
    On Average Albanians would get lower Baltic and Atlantic, and higher east and west Mediterranean.

    Albanians from Montenegro

    Spoiler!
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 24.35
    2 West_Med 20.56
    3 East_Med 20.31
    4 North_Atlantic 17.82
    5 West_Asian 13.31
    6 Red_Sea 2.66



    Spoiler!
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 24.49
    2 Baltic 22.59
    3 East_Med 19.55
    4 West_Med 19.48
    5 West_Asian 9.68
    6 Red_Sea 2.01
    7 Siberian 1.15


    Spoiler!
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 24.10
    2 North_Atlantic 22.42
    3 Baltic 20.00
    4 West_Med 19.79
    5 West_Asian 11.25


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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Far away would be the distance between a Serb and an Irish.
    Those result are pretty closed to the one you would get from Albanians of same regions.
    On Average Albanians would get lower Baltic and Atlantic, and higher east and west Mediterranean.

    Albanians from Montenegro

    Spoiler!
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 24.35
    2 West_Med 20.56
    3 East_Med 20.31
    4 North_Atlantic 17.82
    5 West_Asian 13.31
    6 Red_Sea 2.66



    Spoiler!
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 24.49
    2 Baltic 22.59
    3 East_Med 19.55
    4 West_Med 19.48
    5 West_Asian 9.68
    6 Red_Sea 2.01
    7 Siberian 1.15


    Spoiler!
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 24.10
    2 North_Atlantic 22.42
    3 Baltic 20.00
    4 West_Med 19.79
    5 West_Asian 11.25

    Still the point is that these Serbs still cluster with other Serbs and don't form a close cluster with the Albanians from that region. An Albanian from Montenegro is far closer to an Albanian from the south or Kosovo than they are to Montenegrin Serbs, this is a fact. Albanians as a group form a close cluster, the same can't be said for Greeks on the other hand who show massive variations, especially mainlanders and islanders. Of course there was some intermixing between Albanians and their neighbours, that is only natural. But it's clear that it was pretty minimal and that it was foreign women that married Albanian men.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Greeks, especially the mainland Greeks have way more Albanian-type yDNA than vice-versa. Not surprising since much of mainland Greece was Albanian-speaking until a century ago or so. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    It is possible to connect your cluster with Illyrians if it’s not a recent arrival, and there is no hard evidence to suggest it is. Krici were a known tribe.




    I agree for your clade Pechenegs are not likely.



    Talk to him then, you have so many cousins among Serbs, I won't be your mediator. I can give you credit for testing, I know Urosevic wrote your family were "Arnautasi". But thus far you don't have closer relatives among Serbs.





    Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe


    DYS19 YCAIIa YCAIIb DYS388 DYS 389I1 DYS 389II1 DYS 390 DYS 391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS460


    Caucasus Balkarian J-M12/M102* 15 20 19 15 12 28 24 10 12 12 10




    You see his 390=24 is unusual in your cluster (23). Also he has460=10. Unusual in your cluster (11).



    This Hungarian has 392=12, also 390=24 and in this clade 460=10 iscommon. Modal for J-Z2453
    E013/2016Viss J2b-M12 12 24 15 10 14/17 13 12 12 28 17 15 19 11 15 16 22 9 23 13 11 22 9




    I never claimed Thracian. Carpathians are a mountain range/region. I do not satisfy myself with just one period.. I explore them all.




    I can read basic Albanian. Unlike most people if I wanted to learn Albanian I’d be fluent in few months at most, I do speak Turkish though, and I knew it before I was into this, so you see why I embrace my ancestry so much.


    I was busy and traveling back then, now i have taken a better look. Now i see that i have already worked on this study, but i have not finished it because i switched to another study that was more interesting to me.
    So i never reached to this Balkarian sample. But now when i have take a look at it i have to say that i partially agree with you.

    So, his DYS390 is 24 instead of 23 but that can be random mutation, then DYS340 there is multicopy difference but since its fast mutating marker that is also not that of a big deal.
    But his Ycall actually is also very off-modal, he has 20-19 while most of M205 have 19-20, so reverse, and 20-19 is yet unseen among J2-M205 in general.


    Therefore there is too many differences even on this low number of markers to ever conclude that he is M205, and there is no connection whatsoever to our clade.

    Ask Nebojsha how come he was calming for years there is no M205 Albanians (actually he said there is only one Tosk) when i found them in multiple subclades in Ferri et al, Bosch et al and Sarno et al?
    I have talked to some M205 Serbs, there is really some cool guys but not Nebojsa since he was saying stuff about me, i dont need mediator, you are late to all this.
    Regarding Albanian language i would suggest learning it to both you and Nebojsha, they say after learning Albanian every next language is way easier to learn.

    Btw Arnaut simply means Albanian in Ottoman time. There is not a single proof why Urosevic should be trusted since we have much earlier memories also we know it because of land distribution. Urosevic was late...


    Do you know that we have none responsive Dema surname from Albania tested J2-M205 on 23andme, and there is another 23andme Albanian from Montenegro most likely Krici subclade. Also somewhat none responsive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Thracian/proto-Thracian R1a-Z93 sample from Bulgaria is the closest to Swedes. Approximation of modern populations is 3/4 Nothern Swede and 1/4 Caucasian alike.

    Eurogenes K15

    Admix Result (sorted):

    #Population percent
    1 North_Sea 35.32
    2 Eastern_Euro 19.23
    3 Baltic 13.65
    4 Atlantic 13.45
    5 West_Asian 12.95
    6 South_Asian 3.15
    7 Amerindian 2.05

    Single Population Sharing:

    #Population (source) Distance:
    1 North_Swedish 13.52
    2 Swedish 15.34
    3 Finnish 15.54
    4 Southwest_Finnish 15.82
    5 Norwegian 15.93
    6 East_German 17.21
    7 North_German 17.24
    8 West_Norwegian 17.25
    9 Danish 17.71
    10 Hungarian 17.94
    11 East_Finnish 18.02
    12 North_Dutch 18.06
    13 West_German 18.34
    14 South_Polish 19.7
    15 Ukrainian_Lviv 19.72
    16 Ukrainian 19.84
    17 Estonian 20.15
    18 Orcadian 20.35
    19 West_Scottish 20.42
    20 South_Dutch 20.48

    Mixed Population Mode Sharing:

    #Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source)
    1 75.5% North_Swedish +24.5% Tabassaran @ 7.58
    2 77.6% North_Swedish + 22.4% Lezgin @ 8.67
    3 79% North_Swedish + 21% Chechen @ 8.67
    4 73.4% Swedish + 26.6% Tabassaran @ 9.11
    5 81.6% North_Swedish + 18.4% Adygei @ 9.45
    6 82.1% North_Swedish + 17.9% Ossetian @ 9.52
    7 72.7% Norwegian + 27.3% Tabassaran @ 9.53
    8 80.9% North_Swedish + 19.1 Kabardin @ 9.57
    9 80.3% North_Swedish + 19.7% Afghan_Pashtun @ 9.58
    10 82.5% North_Swedish + 17.5% Kalash @ 9.59




    This Thracian ploting much more northern than your "Nordic Aryan" Bosniaks from central Bosnia, my dear Cuman wannabe friend.
    This "Thracian" from ~1700 BC falls outside of the time horizon for Thracians. He is possibly, one of the ancestors of Thracians, who brought the language. However, actual settled Thracians and not steppe nomads, like I5769 from 400 BC, are more Southern than modern mainland Greeks.

    This development will pretty much mirror what happened everywhere across Southeast Europe.

    Steppe nomads would have brought the Indo-European languages, settled down and mixed with the numerically superior farmers. Afterwards, this fusion, which would call themselves Thracians/Dacians/Illyrians/Mycaeneans/etc. would look roughly 20% steppe for Thracians to 10% for Mycenaeans.

    Modern mainland Greeks and Albanians are about 32% steppe. Bulgarians, Serbs and Romanians - 40%.

    Given that, the medieval Slavic migrations and settlements are probably the cause for the increase in the steppe input for non-Slavic speakers, while the pre-Slavic locals are the root of the farmer surge in South Slavs as opposed to other Slavs.

    It's pretty obvious already really but more samples from the region are always welcome.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Ottomans considered Greeks Rayahs and did not recruit them in military service.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayah

    Very interesting text there, do you know that especially in Bosnia and somewhat all surrounding countries they still say raja for regular crowd, or just a crowd of people.

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    I went to Albania for a week again recently to see family. This time I paid attention to what people (mostly men because only interested in y haplogroups and women dye their hair anyway) looked like since learning about haplogroups and I will post below my percentage of findings for males in Albania. I was mostly in tirane but also in elbasan and a bit in durres

    - At least 15% of males (those without grey hair) were blonde or dirty blonde (more common). I found most "malok" to be dirty blonde and very similar looking
    - 15%+ of males had dark hair but light coloured eyes, either blue or grey
    - 55-60% of males had dark hair and brown eyes, some had slightly lighter coloured beards in the middle (like myself), most were either light skinned or tanned
    - 5-8% of males had darker skin tone or more middle eastern features such as their hair lines, their hair density, their beards. I would say these are not pure albanians and definitely a mix, could be of serbian origin too. A good example is butrint imeri, a lot of musicians seem to be of this middle eastern look and I don't understand why, it doesn't represent the people well
    - 1-2% or so were jevg (non albanian) and were usually in small communities so it's difficult to give a percentage. Most were still discriminated against, left alone and refused into work by employers
    - Most elder males look alike, this was the most striking of findings. I would say the percentage of albanian looking men was greater amongst the elders as most of them looked similar, none of them had beards either maybe 1 or 2 and I am sure this had something to do with enver hoxha.
    - A shopkeeper in tirane who we visited frequently was very very blonde, his little brother the same and his sister looked like a typical "malok" and was dirty blonde. It would be difficult to find someone as naturally blonde as this shopkeeper even in London. I asked him where his family is from and he said permet. So this ghegs are lighter than tosks nonsense doesn't work, maybe there are more light coloured ghegs because of geographical reasons of the tosks being closer for the ottoman and I think the romans also had a bigger impact on southern albania instead of the north but correct me if I am wrong.

    I have never visited places like kukes or tropoje so I don't have something to compare with but are the lighter tones more prominent up there?

    Also, was there any ethnic cleansing during enver hoxha's regime (like under the nazi/mussolini regime) or has there an influx of (half or mixed) albanians from other regions coming in since the 90s after the religious tolerance (mostly muslim since that is what they look like)? The appearance of the elder males make me believe at least one of these 2 things happened

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Also, was there any ethnic cleansing during enver hoxha's regime (like under the nazi/mussolini regime) or has there an influx of (half or mixed) albanians from other regions coming in since the 90s after the religious tolerance (mostly muslim since that is what they look like)? The appearance of the elder males make me believe at least one of these 2 things happened
    As far as I know, there wasn't any type of ethnic cleansing during the Communist regime in Albania. Though I'm pretty sure it did create a rise in nationalism and ethnic unity for the most part since religion was banned and there was an increase in patriotic ideas. Areas of Albania such as Tirana, Durres etc have seen a pretty large influx of Albanians from other regions as they are economically better off when compared to other areas, in those cities you can meet people that originally come from places such as Malesi or even the extreme south. What do you mean by "muslim since that is what they look like"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    As far as I know, there wasn't any type of ethnic cleansing during the Communist regime in Albania. Though I'm pretty sure it did create a rise in nationalism and ethnic unity for the most part since religion was banned and there was an increase in patriotic ideas. Areas of Albania such as Tirana, Durres etc have seen a pretty large influx of Albanians from other regions as they are economically better off when compared to other areas, in those cities you can meet people that originally come from places such as Malesi or even the extreme south. What do you mean by "muslim since that is what they look like"?
    None happened, Middle Albanian was and remains one of the areas that Muslim religion has always been strong. So Elbasan, Kavaja, Tirana were and are strong Muslims areas even before communism. The reason for that is probably related to the strategic importance of Egnatia road and so the incentive of the Ottomans toward Albanian population in this area have been higher.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    As far as I know, there wasn't any type of ethnic cleansing during the Communist regime in Albania. Though I'm pretty sure it did create a rise in nationalism and ethnic unity for the most part since religion was banned and there was an increase in patriotic ideas. Areas of Albania such as Tirana, Durres etc have seen a pretty large influx of Albanians from other regions as they are economically better off when compared to other areas, in those cities you can meet people that originally come from places such as Malesi or even the extreme south. What do you mean by "muslim since that is what they look like"?
    Interesting, if not ethnic cleansing then I am sure a lot of religious muslim folk either left whenever they could or were killed for being religious. Thus ethnically almost all albanians during enver's regime were pure. There may have been a return of some from possible middle eastern ties post Enver?
    By my last statement I meant guys with thick and low hair lines, darker skin tones, thicker black facial hair etc. A small percentage like these looked out of place amongst most albanians. Butrint imeri was an example I used to classify these "mixed albanians at best" who probably have some middle eastern input at some point but I have just found another if you type in "Capital T", are there are more of this type in kosovo due to the lack of impact from Enver? Capital T definitely looks out of place amongst albanians

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    I went to Albania for a week again recently to see family. This time I paid attention to what people (mostly men because only interested in y haplogroups and women dye their hair anyway) looked like since learning about haplogroups and I will post below my percentage of findings for males in Albania. I was mostly in tirane but also in elbasan and a bit in durres

    - At least 15% of males (those without grey hair) were blonde or dirty blonde (more common). I found most "malok" to be dirty blonde and very similar looking
    - 15%+ of males had dark hair but light coloured eyes, either blue or grey
    - 55-60% of males had dark hair and brown eyes, some had slightly lighter coloured beards in the middle (like myself), most were either light skinned or tanned
    - 5-8% of males had darker skin tone or more middle eastern features such as their hair lines, their hair density, their beards. I would say these are not pure albanians and definitely a mix, could be of serbian origin too. A good example is butrint imeri, a lot of musicians seem to be of this middle eastern look and I don't understand why, it doesn't represent the people well
    - 1-2% or so were jevg (non albanian) and were usually in small communities so it's difficult to give a percentage. Most were still discriminated against, left alone and refused into work by employers
    - Most elder males look alike, this was the most striking of findings. I would say the percentage of albanian looking men was greater amongst the elders as most of them looked similar, none of them had beards either maybe 1 or 2 and I am sure this had something to do with enver hoxha.
    - A shopkeeper in tirane who we visited frequently was very very blonde, his little brother the same and his sister looked like a typical "malok" and was dirty blonde. It would be difficult to find someone as naturally blonde as this shopkeeper even in London. I asked him where his family is from and he said permet. So this ghegs are lighter than tosks nonsense doesn't work, maybe there are more light coloured ghegs because of geographical reasons of the tosks being closer for the ottoman and I think the romans also had a bigger impact on southern albania instead of the north but correct me if I am wrong.

    I have never visited places like kukes or tropoje so I don't have something to compare with but are the lighter tones more prominent up there?

    Also, was there any ethnic cleansing during enver hoxha's regime (like under the nazi/mussolini regime) or has there an influx of (half or mixed) albanians from other regions coming in since the 90s after the religious tolerance (mostly muslim since that is what they look like)? The appearance of the elder males make me believe at least one of these 2 things happened
    Haplogroup has no impact on autosomal DNA. There are African Americans with Viking YDNA. There are some Albanians phenotypically completely separate from each other who share YDNA. Or some Albanians with non-paleo balkan YDNA that look more Albanian than those with Paleo balkan lines.

    Is Shpata your surname? My maternal line is Shpata. They come from a isolated area in Puka called Cam/Came. Claim descent from Gjin Bua Shpata. If you share the same story, you should test your YDNA. My Shpata uncle tested J2b-L283. No close matches though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Haplogroup has no impact on autosomal DNA. There are African Americans with Viking YDNA. There are some Albanians phenotypically completely separate from each other who share YDNA. Or some Albanians with non-paleo balkan YDNA that look more Albanian than those with Paleo balkan lines.
    Is Shpata your surname? My maternal line is Shpata. They come from a isolated area in Puka called Cam/Came. Claim descent from Gjin Bua Shpata. If you share the same story, you should test your YDNA. My Shpata uncle tested J2b-L283. No close matches though.
    Shouldn't haplogroups have some effect on dna? I have seen people who look like their grandads or a distant relative instead of their parents. Dna is complex and I am sure that the more you have a certain y haplogroup the more you look like people from that group.
    For example, if we were to remove all non j2b l283 and r1b men from Albania, within 200 years all males would look similar again in my opinion.
    My surname isn't shpata haha, I just like the word. My surname is actually Italian from a village in campania and I have no idea why, well some idea but not enough. I've not done the y dna test yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    If anything its Albanians who donated to create other nations and not the other way around.

    Greek nation is made out of assimilating Albanians, Slavs and Turks with addition of few original Greeks.

    Even Osli said that in Greece Slavs with names like Slobodan and Milosh were taking Greek names like Christos and Dimitris and its how modern Greek nation was created.

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    yeah, so f*****g sad that we never made something else than thinking for our own stuff, i mean, we don't like what others have done to us, but it would be sick if there was an albanian empire hopefully a christian one, albanians would have actually been very good representatives of christianity, unlike most christians whom have abused and misused that fantastic religion that it is, by killing in the name of jesus, burning heretics, invading others, etc. i think albanian christian would be very good representatives of what true christianity is, and promoters of its values of love, sharing and helping the weak, unfortunatelly we never fought for it

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    I went to Albania for a week again recently to see family. This time I paid attention to what people (mostly men because only interested in y haplogroups and women dye their hair anyway) looked like since learning about haplogroups and I will post below my percentage of findings for males in Albania. I was mostly in tirane but also in elbasan and a bit in durres

    - At least 15% of males (those without grey hair) were blonde or dirty blonde (more common). I found most "malok" to be dirty blonde and very similar looking
    - 15%+ of males had dark hair but light coloured eyes, either blue or grey
    - 55-60% of males had dark hair and brown eyes, some had slightly lighter coloured beards in the middle (like myself), most were either light skinned or tanned
    - 5-8% of males had darker skin tone or more middle eastern features such as their hair lines, their hair density, their beards. I would say these are not pure albanians and definitely a mix, could be of serbian origin too. A good example is butrint imeri, a lot of musicians seem to be of this middle eastern look and I don't understand why, it doesn't represent the people well
    - 1-2% or so were jevg (non albanian) and were usually in small communities so it's difficult to give a percentage. Most were still discriminated against, left alone and refused into work by employers
    - Most elder males look alike, this was the most striking of findings. I would say the percentage of albanian looking men was greater amongst the elders as most of them looked similar, none of them had beards either maybe 1 or 2 and I am sure this had something to do with enver hoxha.
    - A shopkeeper in tirane who we visited frequently was very very blonde, his little brother the same and his sister looked like a typical "malok" and was dirty blonde. It would be difficult to find someone as naturally blonde as this shopkeeper even in London. I asked him where his family is from and he said permet. So this ghegs are lighter than tosks nonsense doesn't work, maybe there are more light coloured ghegs because of geographical reasons of the tosks being closer for the ottoman and I think the romans also had a bigger impact on southern albania instead of the north but correct me if I am wrong.

    I have never visited places like kukes or tropoje so I don't have something to compare with but are the lighter tones more prominent up there?

    Also, was there any ethnic cleansing during enver hoxha's regime (like under the nazi/mussolini regime) or has there an influx of (half or mixed) albanians from other regions coming in since the 90s after the religious tolerance (mostly muslim since that is what they look like)? The appearance of the elder males make me believe at least one of these 2 things happened
    First of all thanks for writing this, very interesting, i have always been interested into why albanians look a certain way and the relation with their haplogroup.
    About Capital T and Imer, YES, definely non albanian looking, and check out even Noisy, i know a lot of people here are his funs so please don't rape my organs and bones for saying so, but he look like a GMO tomatoe, and looks nothing like albanian + there are lots of albanians from kosovo whom i've seen look nothing like albanians: i mean very dark and very Georgian looking faces, WTF? search for a georgian guy that did street drift before passing out in a car accident, his name is georgi tevdzadze, HE LOOKS 100% like those anomal albanians i am talking about.
    I have heard rumors about russians teaching albanian language to chechens/dagestani people to send them as ultra-muslim terrorists faking to be UÇK members in order to do attacks on serbian people and iving serbs a justification to kill albanians, and for trying to turn the albanian nationalist movement into an islamic terrorist group in order to help serbia under the world's eyes passing not as the typical ultra nationalist slav removing anything different from him, but as the good christian removing the bad muslim terrorist, and they almost made it.
    BTW if the UÇK movement was an islamic organization why happens that 20% of its members were mostly dukagjini catholics, in a country that has 95% muslims and 5% catholics.
    Same thing that they tried to do with bosnjaks, but arabs there beated the russians on time, unwillingly doing the dirty job for them by islificating bosnjak teenagers and turing them into terrorists.
    Please tell me if they are only rumors or true facts?

    Ah and btw i jave noticed a very strange Cham phenotype, a good example is an italian youtuber called Klaus, his eyes and shape of the head remind me a lot of that type of cham i am talking about.

    I think we should open a thread about this, we would probably see lots of toxic greeks and jugos in the thread but even a lot of healthy confrontation and information sharing within each other among the topic, what you think?

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