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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Sorry to interrompe your diarrhea. Just my two cents about the rayah inhabitants who lived during the Ottoman Empire in what is today called Greece:

    I want to draw your attention to two moments:
    A Greek Minister (one of the pretended "coryphees" of liberalism and of extension of the kingdom) told lately a friend of mine:
    "les Grecs d'aujourd'hui sont des Turcs chrétiens et il faut les gouverner a la Turque".

    Translated with Google:
    "The Greeks of today are Christian Turks and we must govern them a la Turkish".
    And here you have the second moment of our interest:
    As distincly proved by Professor Fallmerayer, whose judgment is very correct. - The Greek of Byzantine and mixed descent is considered "fair pray" by the hardiest race of Slavic blood the same by the Albanian. - The latter even when a Mussulman, respect and fears the Christian of pure Albanian blood, in fact the people of both creeds often intermarry and mostly live unmolested in each other`s neighbourhood, but the Mussulman Albanian opresses, insults, robs and ill-treats the Christian Rayah of mixed descent living in the plains of Thessaly, Macedonia, Moesia, etc.
    This feeling of supremacy of the Albanian is so general that i saw in Greece Grivas and other chieftains of epirote descent that treat the mixed Byzantines of the Morea with outmost arrogance, calling them, even after the conclusion of the war, Rayahs and "Barbatches" (synonymus with "Fellahs") in contradistiction to the followers of the Capitani themselves, who are "Rumeliote Palicares" or "Albanian Soldiers".

    Source: "The Syrian War and the Decline of the Ottoman Empire, 1840-1848: In Reports, Documents, and ..."
    If you want i can quote plenty of other first hand testimony of who really were "Greeks" 200 years ago before the invention of the Greek nation by the Great Powers.
    But let return to your posts. The only thing that deserve attention in your post when you talk about Albanians:
    We have plenty of sources who tell us that large part of the territory of your country were called Albania. And biggest ethnic group in your country for many centuries were the Albanians. 200 years ago there was no Greek nation, but simply a bunch of "Barbatches", a social strata, the lowest, of mongrel rayahs. I can prove my claims. Can you prove your claim about Albanians?
    Interesant, si quhet libri? se kot po rri, te lexoj ndonji gje te sakt mbi historin time 😂😂😂

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    If anything its Albanians who donated to create other nations and not the other way around.

    Greek nation is made out of assimilating Albanians, Slavs and Turks with addition of few original Greeks.

    Even Osli said that in Greece Slavs with names like Slobodan and Milosh were taking Greek names like Christos and Dimitris and its how modern Greek nation was created.
    To be fair hellenes lost out the most land due to ottoman. Without ottoman turkey would be part of Greece today and maybe Bulgaria. A lot of hellenes were killed post byzantine in turkey, some converted into ottoman and the rest fled.

    Albania for sure was a stronger state before ottoman, we had bigger land, more wealth and a much stronger army. A lot of j2b and other illyrian men (& women) died in the 500 years of ottoman contact, not only during the recorded wars but they were always fighting, even without weapons. Post ottoman we were poor, we had lost epirus to greece even though most inhabitants of epirus will have albanian ancestors they converted to greeks. We had lost land in the north to serbia even though almost all inhabitants in kosovo are albanian. We had lost land to macedonia etc. The ottoman tried to erase albanian history and language, tried to change our culture, only a few thrived in that dark period and some of those who did were only half albanian. We have almost no literature from the ottoman period yet almost everyone else does, why do you think that is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    First of all thanks for writing this, very interesting, i have always been interested into why albanians look a certain way and the relation with their haplogroup.
    About Capital T and Imer, YES, definely non albanian looking, and check out even Noisy, i know a lot of people here are his funs so please don't rape my organs and bones for saying so, but he look like a GMO tomatoe, and looks nothing like albanian + there are lots of albanians from kosovo whom i've seen look nothing like albanians: i mean very dark and very Georgian looking faces, WTF? search for a georgian guy that did street drift before passing out in a car accident, his name is georgi tevdzadze, HE LOOKS 100% like those anomal albanians i am talking about.
    I have heard rumors about russians teaching albanian language to chechens/dagestani people to send them as ultra-muslim terrorists faking to be UÇK members in order to do attacks on serbian people and iving serbs a justification to kill albanians, and for trying to turn the albanian nationalist movement into an islamic terrorist group in order to help serbia under the world's eyes passing not as the typical ultra nationalist slav removing anything different from him, but as the good christian removing the bad muslim terrorist, and they almost made it.
    BTW if the UÇK movement was an islamic organization why happens that 20% of its members were mostly dukagjini catholics, in a country that has 95% muslims and 5% catholics.
    Same thing that they tried to do with bosnjaks, but arabs there beated the russians on time, unwillingly doing the dirty job for them by islificating bosnjak teenagers and turing them into terrorists.
    Please tell me if they are only rumors or true facts?
    Ah and btw i jave noticed a very strange Cham phenotype, a good example is an italian youtuber called Klaus, his eyes and shape of the head remind me a lot of that type of cham i am talking about.
    I think we should open a thread about this, we would probably see lots of toxic greeks and jugos in the thread but even a lot of healthy confrontation and information sharing within each other among the topic, what you think?
    That is very interesting about the UCK and a disgusting tactic. I am disappointed that in 1912 we did not have mosques destroyed in our land. We waited until Enver to do some of that work, I wish he had done more. I am not a Catholic myself but we shouldn't associate our land with the religion of terrorists, especially in this day and age. Islam was spread by arabs who either had an inferiority or superiority complex and wanted to spread their culture (and dna at first) as far as they could.
    We need to leave this Islam nonsense behind now, I mean it is almost 110 years since we kicked out the ottoman, maybe by letting Islam go Europe will be more welcoming in giving us some of our land back and reuniting our people. Europe seems to forget what we did for them, what Kastrioti did for them, the serbs did not half as much good as we did
    If we enter the EU I fear more Islamics and terrorists will enter our land due to the amount of mosques we still have left just like they may have done when envers reign was over. We need to think about our future, Islam will not do our country any good, we need to keep up with the news and act fast, in my opinion

  4. #1104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    I went to Albania for a week again recently to see family. This time I paid attention to what people (mostly men because only interested in y haplogroups and women dye their hair anyway) looked like since learning about haplogroups and I will post below my percentage of findings for males in Albania. I was mostly in tirane but also in elbasan and a bit in durres

    - At least 15% of males (those without grey hair) were blonde or dirty blonde (more common). I found most "malok" to be dirty blonde and very similar looking
    - 15%+ of males had dark hair but light coloured eyes, either blue or grey
    - 55-60% of males had dark hair and brown eyes, some had slightly lighter coloured beards in the middle (like myself), most were either light skinned or tanned
    Actually what you found was a bunch of dirty blonde people and you decided to associate them with "maloks", whereas you didn't even notice 90% of the "maloks" due to your narrow knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    - 5-8% of males had darker skin tone or more middle eastern features such as their hair lines, their hair density, their beards. I would say these are not pure albanians and definitely a mix, could be of serbian origin too. A good example is butrint imeri, a lot of musicians seem to be of this middle eastern look and I don't understand why, it doesn't represent the people well
    Considering the cities you visited, they have had people from different lands of the Ottoman Empire and that is not a secret. Many families in Central Albania still know their roots. Plus many of those people are mixed Romani due men from these areas mating with Romani prostitutes called 'cinije' and getting them pregnant. This gave rise to many property related court cases as the bastard children started asking for their share after the fell of communism.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    - A shopkeeper in tirane who we visited frequently was very very blonde, his little brother the same and his sister looked like a typical "malok" and was dirty blonde. It would be difficult to find someone as naturally blonde as this shopkeeper even in London. I asked him where his family is from and he said permet. So this ghegs are lighter than tosks nonsense doesn't work, maybe there are more light coloured ghegs because of geographical reasons of the tosks being closer for the ottoman and I think the romans also had a bigger impact on southern albania instead of the north but correct me if I am wrong.
    Nobody knowledgeable enough claims that Ghegs are lighter than Tosks, but rather that Ghegs are more homogenous than Tosks. If Ghegs are fair they're Noric which is a fair version of Dinaric, whereas Tosks have more darker Mediterranean types and very light Alpine-Baltic types.

    As we know from ydna results now, Tosks have considerable amounts of Slavic ydna, especially in South East around Korca area. By your lastname sounding like a village in Italy I'm guessing it could be a lastname from Korca (just a guess).

    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    I have never visited places like kukes or tropoje so I don't have something to compare with but are the lighter tones more prominent up there?
    Nope, most people have brown to dark brown hair and at least 60% of eyes are hazel or dark green, with brown eyes at 20-30% at best although Coon never saw more than 25% of eyes being brown in any area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Interesting, if not ethnic cleansing then I am sure a lot of religious muslim folk either left whenever they could or were killed for being religious. Thus ethnically almost all albanians during enver's regime were pure. There may have been a return of some from possible middle eastern ties post Enver?
    By my last statement I meant guys with thick and low hair lines, darker skin tones, thicker black facial hair etc. A small percentage like these looked out of place amongst most albanians. Butrint imeri was an example I used to classify these "mixed albanians at best" who probably have some middle eastern input at some point but I have just found another if you type in "Capital T", are there are more of this type in kosovo due to the lack of impact from Enver? Capital T definitely looks out of place amongst albanians
    Albanians don't have any noticeable or significant Middle Eastern admixture and so the darker features that are present among certain Albanians aren't due to MENA input. You can find Catholics from Malesi who look like Butrint Imeri, religion hasn't got anything to do with this. Muslims weren't killed under the Communist regime, sure some Imams(and other religious leaders) were arrested but nobody was murdered, also the borders were closed so migration was virtually impossible.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

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    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    As we know from ydna results now, Tosks have considerable amounts of Slavic ydna, especially in South East around Korca area. By your lastname sounding like a village in Italy I'm guessing it could be a lastname from Korca (just a guess).
    Around 10% of Tosks have Serbian haplogroups but I do not associate blondes with serbians at all. There are much more blonde malok than Serbs on average. Also I have yet to see a serb as blonde as this guy and as short as he was
    The i1 m253 viking dna may be a stronger marker for blonde genes and Tosks have it more than Ghegs but I have no idea why.
    Serbian dna in Albania is most likely from the byzantine empire although some could also be from ottoman serbs, same for the other way round
    As for my last name, it is mostly found in Italy, not one match in serbia. My hunch is that it is was an arbereshe Italian surname, they had their original surnames changed hundreds of years ago and my ancestor returned to Albania at some point

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Albanians don't have any noticeable or significant Middle Eastern admixture and so the darker features that are present among certain Albanians aren't due to MENA input. You can find Catholics from Malesi who look like Butrint Imeri, religion hasn't got anything to do with this. Muslims weren't killed under the Communist regime, sure some Imams(and other religious leaders) were arrested but nobody was murdered, also the borders were closed so migration was virtually impossible.
    I disagree honestly. Butrint definitely has some strange input, if not middle eastern then serbian for sure, maybe greek though greeks themselves have middle eastern input so it goes back to that. How do you explain someone like Capital T and do you forget the "jevg" still in the balkans only found in the borders of the ottoman empire? Coincidence?
    Many people were killed during envers regime, I suggested that Muslim foreigners tried to flee and were killed at the borders or when bending over to pray were thrown into prison and/or killed
    Ethnic cleansing is still plausible during the Nazi regime and under Enver, we don't have enough information

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    I disagree honestly. Butrint definitely has some strange input, if not middle eastern then serbian for sure, maybe greek though greeks themselves have middle eastern input so it goes back to that. How do you explain someone like Capital T and do you forget the "jevg" still in the balkans only found in the borders of the ottoman empire? Coincidence?
    Many people were killed during envers regime, I suggested that Muslim foreigners tried to flee and were killed at the borders or when bending over to pray were thrown into prison and/or killed
    Ethnic cleansing is still plausible during the Nazi regime and under Enver, we don't have enough information
    Point is that Albanians have negligible input from MENA groups, be it via haplogroups or just autosomal. Albania didn't really see mass settlement of foreign groups from the Ottoman empire, unlike certain places such as Bulgaria. Greek input also is very insignificant going by the current data that we have. They could potentially have Roma/Ashkali blood though that may also not be the case, they could just be dark Albanians. As I said before, I have seen Catholics that have this darker appearance, some have even tested and turned out to your regular Albanian. It has nothing to do with religion or foreign admixture in the vast majority of cases. Could you show a source suggesting that many people were killed under the communist regime? There wasn't any mass murder during Enver's regime, some people were executed for political reasons though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Around 10% of Tosks have Serbian haplogroups but I do not associate blondes with serbians at all. There are much more blonde malok than Serbs on average. Also I have yet to see a serb as blonde as this guy and as short as he was
    The i1 m253 viking dna may be a stronger marker for blonde genes and Tosks have it more than Ghegs but I have no idea why.
    Serbian dna in Albania is most likely from the byzantine empire although some could also be from ottoman serbs, same for the other way round
    As for my last name, it is mostly found in Italy, not one match in serbia. My hunch is that it is was an arbereshe Italian surname, they had their original surnames changed hundreds of years ago and my ancestor returned to Albania at some point

    You haven't taken a DNA test how would you even know? There was one Albanian who had H which is mostly Romani/Jevg and he did not look it one bit. Haplogroups have little impact after a generation or 2 of settlement. As stated before, the source populations of these peoples were already mixed with components before migrating to their current locations as of today. African Americans even have Anglo/Scando haplogroups, and not a bit of "white" in them.

    Haplogroups mean nothing, you won't know your matches until you take a DNA test. Why haven't you yet any ways? You're like some Albanian users on the apricity who have never taken DNA tests and talk about it like they have. Get tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    That is very interesting about the UCK and a disgusting tactic. I am disappointed that in 1912 we did not have mosques destroyed in our land. We waited until Enver to do some of that work, I wish he had done more. I am not a Catholic myself but we shouldn't associate our land with the religion of terrorists, especially in this day and age. Islam was spread by arabs who either had an inferiority or superiority complex and wanted to spread their culture (and dna at first) as far as they could.
    We need to leave this Islam nonsense behind now, I mean it is almost 110 years since we kicked out the ottoman, maybe by letting Islam go Europe will be more welcoming in giving us some of our land back and reuniting our people. Europe seems to forget what we did for them, what Kastrioti did for them, the serbs did not half as much good as we did
    If we enter the EU I fear more Islamics and terrorists will enter our land due to the amount of mosques we still have left just like they may have done when envers reign was over. We need to think about our future, Islam will not do our country any good, we need to keep up with the news and act fast, in my opinion
    well i agree with you on what you said, personally i am very interested into why we have certain phenotypes, and maybe finding out what was the original illyrian one, if there was any.
    Some theories say that albanians might have been illyrians coming from south serbia and because pf the arrival of slavs went southwards mixing with local epirote people (still to clarify what epirotes were), this would exlain why albanians share similarities with both jugos and greeks, but there aren't any big ones between greeks and jugos directly, without albanians as a bridge between them.
    Another factor of doubt is: why aren't modern albanians very tall? illyrians were but albanians are on the 1.74m tall average, neither 1.80 at least.
    My suggestion is because of the communist regime, personal example: My grandgrandfather was 1.95m, my grabdfather 1.92m and my father is 1.70m!!!!! (he is class 1973) and I (born and raised in italy) am 1.86m tall, so i think it is becasue of diet, I GUESS.
    And i would like to understand the origing of noric/nordic phenotypes among albanians, maybe we should open a thread about this and even involve the guy Nik, he seems to know something about the matter, and i would like to know more about it.

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    @nik here on eupedia i could send you a good exmple of blonde haired person from south albania, but you gotta tell me how i can send a photo from android. The photo is of my brother, and i would like to hear what would he pass as, i think he looks a lot polish/lithuanian, nothing like jugos at all.
    Like seriously he looks far norther than even croatian soccer player Ivan rakitic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    You haven't taken a DNA test how would you even know? There was one Albanian who had H which is mostly Romani/Jevg and he did not look it one bit. Haplogroups have little impact after a generation or 2 of settlement. As stated before, the source populations of these peoples were already mixed with components before migrating to their current locations as of today. African Americans even have Anglo/Scando haplogroups, and not a bit of "white" in them.
    Haplogroups mean nothing, you won't know your matches until you take a DNA test. Why haven't you yet any ways? You're like some Albanian users on the apricity who have never taken DNA tests and talk about it like they have. Get tested.
    Do you have a picture of this guy with H? I'd like to see how albanian he looks.
    In terms of me, my grandad (the y dna I am carrying) was dirty blonde (yet I am not) and his name was Bardhyl. His surname was Italian but he only spoke albanian. I haven't taken a dna test yet because I have other problems right now to deal with, how much does it cost to get the specific haplogroup?
    The reason why y dna plays a bigger role in a country like albania is because there hasn't been much movement in terms of families or women from another area into albania throughout history, in Albania men have fought and died for over 2000 years to defend their land and families. The Serbs for example it's slightly different because they came into the balkans and pushed other groups out, the early Serbs would have been males mixing with local women not of slavic origin. If albania had a mixed bag of women, such as africans, arabs, chinese etc then sure y haplogroups would be pointless because of such a diverse group of mtdna. In fact throughout history most movement has been from y dna instead not mtdna due to conquests, wars etc. Only in recent times, in more peaceful times has there been a lot of mtdna movement throughout the globe

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Do you have a picture of this guy with H? I'd like to see how albanian he looks.
    In terms of me, my grandad (the y dna I am carrying) was dirty blonde (yet I am not) and his name was Bardhyl. His surname was Italian but he only spoke albanian. I haven't taken a dna test yet because I have other problems right now to deal with, how much does it cost to get the specific haplogroup?
    The reason why y dna plays a bigger role in a country like albania is because there hasn't been much movement in terms of families or women from another area into albania throughout history, in Albania men have fought and died for over 2000 years to defend their land and families. The Serbs for example it's slightly different because they came into the balkans and pushed other groups out, the early Serbs would have been males mixing with local women not of slavic origin. If albania had a mixed bag of women, such as africans, arabs, chinese etc then sure y haplogroups would be pointless because of such a diverse group of mtdna. In fact throughout history most movement has been from y dna instead not mtdna due to conquests, wars etc. Only in recent times, in more peaceful times has there been a lot of mtdna movement throughout the globe
    Are you sure that your surname is etymologically Italian and not just Italian sounding or looking? There are Albanian surnames that look and sound Italian, doesn't mean that they are actually Italian surnames. Where in Albania are you from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    well i agree with you on what you said, personally i am very interested into why we have certain phenotypes, and maybe finding out what was the original illyrian one, if there was any.
    Some theories say that albanians might have been illyrians coming from south serbia and because pf the arrival of slavs went southwards mixing with local epirote people (still to clarify what epirotes were), this would exlain why albanians share similarities with both jugos and greeks, but there aren't any big ones between greeks and jugos directly, without albanians as a bridge between them.
    Another factor of doubt is: why aren't modern albanians very tall? illyrians were but albanians are on the 1.74m tall average, neither 1.80 at least.
    My suggestion is because of the communist regime, personal example: My grandgrandfather was 1.95m, my grabdfather 1.92m and my father is 1.70m!!!!! (he is class 1973) and I (born and raised in italy) am 1.86m tall, so i think it is becasue of diet, I GUESS.
    And i would like to understand the origing of noric/nordic phenotypes among albanians, maybe we should open a thread about this and even involve the guy Nik, he seems to know something about the matter, and i would like to know more about it.
    Is it historically stated that illyrians were tall by roman records? Also even if they were tall for their time that does not mean they were taller than albanians of today, according to most sources peoples were short 2000+ years ago.
    According to studies, males in America were 1.70 on average only 100 years ago, now they are much taller at 1.78 or so. This proves that nutrition at a young age including vitamins in modern times help increase someones adult height. This could possibly be why maybe illyrians were taller than others around them? Maybe they fed their kids more.
    "Imperial regulations, though not entirely unambiguous, suggest that the minimum height for new recruits was five Roman feet, seven inches (165 cm., 5'5") ... for the army as a whole a reasonable estimate of a soldier's average height is around 170 cm (5'7").
    - Roth, Jonathan, and Jonathan P. Roth. The Logistics of the Roman Army at War: 264 BC-AD 235. Columbia studies in the classical tradition, Vol. 23. Brill, 1999."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Is it historically stated that illyrians were tall by roman records? Also even if they were tall for their time that does not mean they were taller than albanians of today, according to most sources peoples were short 2000+ years ago.
    According to studies, males in America were 1.70 on average only 100 years ago, now they are much taller at 1.78 or so. This proves that nutrition at a young age including vitamins in modern times help increase someones adult height. This could possibly be why maybe illyrians were taller than others around them? Maybe they fed their kids more.
    "Imperial regulations, though not entirely unambiguous, suggest that the minimum height for new recruits was five Roman feet, seven inches (165 cm., 5'5") ... for the army as a whole a reasonable estimate of a soldier's average height is around 170 cm (5'7").
    - Roth, Jonathan, and Jonathan P. Roth. The Logistics of the Roman Army at War: 264 BC-AD 235. Columbia studies in the classical tradition, Vol. 23. Brill, 1999."
    I didn't know this thing, but from what i've heard huntergatherers were around 1.90m tall, and that the developement of height depends mostly from consumption of meat (see scandinavians/germanic people for instance) but idk, you might be right.
    Still it is kinda typical for ghegs to be tall: friend of mine from tirana (origins from shkodra) is 1.92m tall and 98kg and looks very slim, like seriously, the description of typical illyrians suits him 100%: he has that light brown but still a lot whiter than average greeks/turks skin, fat mass below 4%, i mean for 1.92m x 98kg he seems skinny so all muscles ;)
    And btw i have heard that they found illyrian bones somewhere in the balkans and that the skeletons were around 1.95m tall, according to a guy, i think called Taulant Caka.
    Albanians ain't so tall only due to starvation and lack of food in certain areas during ottoman times and mostly due to the communist regime + in the south due to not so much homogenic DNA like among ghegs.
    Guess what people in the south (me being 1.85) are shorter then in northern albania.
    Accprding to wikipedia albania AL average is 1.74m while kosovo average is 1.80m for males at least so idk, but it is suggested by some scholars, as Taulant Caka (idk if he is much of an authority in the albanian scholars community, tell me if he is), that in some excavations it was found out that illyrian skeletons were around 1.95m tall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Is it historically stated that illyrians were tall by roman records? Also even if they were tall for their time that does not mean they were taller than albanians of today, according to most sources peoples were short 2000+ years ago.
    According to studies, males in America were 1.70 on average only 100 years ago, now they are much taller at 1.78 or so. This proves that nutrition at a young age including vitamins in modern times help increase someones adult height. This could possibly be why maybe illyrians were taller than others around them? Maybe they fed their kids more.
    "Imperial regulations, though not entirely unambiguous, suggest that the minimum height for new recruits was five Roman feet, seven inches (165 cm., 5'5") ... for the army as a whole a reasonable estimate of a soldier's average height is around 170 cm (5'7").
    - Roth, Jonathan, and Jonathan P. Roth. The Logistics of the Roman Army at War: 264 BC-AD 235. Columbia studies in the classical tradition, Vol. 23. Brill, 1999."
    Well 1.70m average for roman soldiers doesn't differ much from modern day italians who, like most of mediterranean people are around the 1.70m.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    I didn't know this thing, but from what i've heard huntergatherers were around 1.90m tall, and that the developement of height depends mostly from consumption of meat (see scandinavians/germanic people for instance) but idk, you might be right.
    Still it is kinda typical for ghegs to be tall: friend of mine from tirana (origins from shkodra) is 1.92m tall and 98kg and looks very slim, like seriously, the description of typical illyrians suits him 100%: he has that light brown but still a lot whiter than average greeks/turks skin, fat mass below 4%, i mean for 1.92m x 98kg he seems skinny so all muscles ;)
    And btw i have heard that they found illyrian bones somewhere in the balkans and that the skeletons were around 1.95m tall, according to a guy, i think called Taulant Caka.
    Albanians ain't so tall only due to starvation and lack of food in certain areas during ottoman times and mostly due to the communist regime + in the south due to not so much homogenic DNA like among ghegs.
    Guess what people in the south (me being 1.85) are shorter then in northern albania.
    Accprding to wikipedia albania AL average is 1.74m while kosovo average is 1.80m for males at least so idk, but it is suggested by some scholars, as Taulant Caka (idk if he is much of an authority in the albanian scholars community, tell me if he is), that in some excavations it was found out that illyrian skeletons were around 1.95m tall.
    Hunter-gatherer males weren't 1.90m on average, don't know where you heard that. The males were around 1.75m whilst the females were around 1.65m on average, this is based on skeletons found in Greece and Turkey http://nicksabeelclass.weebly.com/up..._documents.pdf. Another study showed the average height of Paleolithic males as 1.79m http://www.hormones.gr/127/article/article.html. As for the Illyrian skeletons, some skeletons from Slovenia were only 1.65m tall on average, that was the average male height btw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#Archaeology

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I was busy and traveling back then, now i have taken a better look. Now i see that i have already worked on this study, but i have not finished it because i switched to another study that was more interesting to me.
    So i never reached to this Balkarian sample. But now when i have take a look at it i have to say that i partially agree with you.


    So, his DYS390 is 24 instead of 23 but that can be random mutation, then DYS340 there is multicopy difference but since its fast mutating marker that is also not that of a big deal.
    But his Ycall actually is also very off-modal, he has 20-19 while most of M205 have 19-20, so reverse, and 20-19 is yet unseen among J2-M205 in general.


    Therefore there is too many differences even on this low number of markers to ever conclude that he is M205, and there is no connection whatsoever to our clade.

    No this is an error in the file they switched the STR names, all other samples also have 20-19 and that is impossible as the opposite are the values. So he must have 19-20 too. 390=24 and 460=10




    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    you are late to all this.

    Oh no, I heard of E-V13, R1a etc. 10 years ago, likely before any of you here..


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Btw Arnaut simply means Albanian in Ottoman time. There is not a single proof why Urosevic should be trusted since we have much earlier memories also we know it because of land distribution. Urosevic was late...

    I don't know about Kosovo much nor do I care. I have nothing to do with Kosovo when it comes to ancestry.. I never read Urosevic.. If you have no close relatives among Serbs then you have different path.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Do you know that we have none responsive Dema surname from Albania tested J2-M205 on 23andme, and there is another 23andme Albanian from Montenegro most likely Krici subclade. Also somewhat none responsive.

    There are few M205 in S.Albania but they are different. In Aromanians from Andon Poci one such haplotype i na study, I guess some of your might be related to him..


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Regarding Albanian language i would suggest learning it to both you and Nebojsha, they say after learning Albanian every next language is way easier to learn.

    That's more of an urban myth. Albanian alphabet has 36 letters that represent 36 phonemes, like 30 in Serbo-Croatian. But French with far less letters has alot more different sounds, not to speak of Danish in both of which I am also fluent.
    But Albanian is comparatively harder than most European languages.


    I likely know more already of Albanian grammar than you do. After all, I'm a superman in that department and because of that among other things, I don't answer to any Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Albanians or other peoples which only do what others tell them to do, nor I care much about your affairs..


    You came to t r o l l me because you thought I was some Serb who would be upset with Y-DNA result. Some of my "cousins" might be upset because they are Serbs but I am glad I am not of Slavic hg, unlike most Serbs of E-V13 I like my haplogroup, and precisely because I am "Serb" and not Serb I am interested in it. And when it comes to my super brainpower, I was thinking what in terms of my ancestry might distinguish me from your sea of averageness. Obviously its not so likely to be the Slavic or Paleo-Balkanic.. It is not only that but very different principles..


    Btw you and Bachus are dead wrong.. I tracked down the ancestor of my Hungarian cousin. The documentary ancestor of that family was first mentioned in Mezősas in 1628. What I found is that among those who received the Coat of Arms from Prince of Transylvania there were in addition to him undeniably no less than 8 other people from Cumania (only counting surnames peculiar to Cumania), and for most ethnic Cuman origin can be argued, which was very weird as few years before that none of them were there and in 1628. they are more than 50 % there.. Why? 4 years earlier the same Prince answered the request of Cumans from there and he confirmed their privileges that dated from 1539. Why in Mezősas? Because same group served Bocskai in 1605. during his uprising for a short time during his revolt precisely in Mezősas. It is known they were there for a short time, but it makes sense they came back in 1628. because they had experience with the area.. My cousins surname was rare at that time but it does occur in the middle of Cumania in 1592., in fact as one person then had same name and was young at the time he could easily be the same person as the one in 1628.. Anyway the grandson of the guy from 1628 was one of the main guys in Cumania in 1702. after the Wiena War and his greatgrandson was present when the diploma from 1624. was brought up in 1717. because Cumans lost privileges in 1702 (they were returned in 1742). The family settled in the place where the tested is from only in 1768., but they were present before that in Cumania, and originally it seems they are from there (1592.) before the turbulent 17th century..
    As this surname was not mentioned in 1571., 21 years before, and it was formed of fathers name, the only 2 suitable persons descended of certain Cuman families...


    In the early 17th century Cuman was still spoken there but depopulation due to wars starting in 1595 had caused migrations. That is why even though the tested was from Karcag and his surname recorded there in 1592 I could not assume automatically they are connected because Karcag was depopulated in 1618. but soon after that in 1624. Cumans enrolled for the Prince of Transylvania, and this family was prominent in it, as they were when they came back to Cumania after the wars ended in late 17th century.


    And because this community had privileges for centuries in early 17th century they were still very compact ethnically. These is not some Illyrians/Slavs or whatever 1500-2000 years ago, this is where reliable documents say what the facts are..


    So I trust member of this family when he said in the video of Turkish TV about Cumans "it is tradition of our (Cuman) forefathers"... The only possible reserve I might have is if the guy tested is not of this family (even so he'd be from the same place), but I don't think that is possible, in records I did not see any other family with this surname there.. Besides I will test someone else from that family as that guy tested long ago was not responsive..


    And ofc, back to you once last time how do I know "this mutation" is important. Well for V13 accepted and established modal at dys385b is 18. Same goes for most Albanian BY4461, same for Swedish Z38456. Hungarian has 19 but other from Cluj has this modal 18.


    Meanwhile of commercially tested and from the studies in the Balkans I know no less than 14 hapotypes of my cluster and absolutely every single one of them has 385b=17. That is clearly an innovation, a back mutation. Newer one obviously. If Hungarian is Cuman and he is 99% so are all Balkanites automatically (and generally they look similar to each other suggesting TMRCA of about 1000 ybp), but ofc I have some proof for us in the Balkans as well.. I make exception for the ones found in Pecenjevce (and their cousin in Sofia), they are Pecheneg.. Simultaneously as said Northern haplotypes being from N.Transylvania and being close geographically to other Hungarians of the E-Y81971 clade, being not far from Ukrainian who are other Z17107* (Z38456-), In Lavov there is likely anonymous haplotype of this other Russian Z38456- clade too.. It does clearly indicate where Z17107 comes from, you have 4 Z17107+, Z38456- in the Middle Carpathian region.. And my cluster came in Nomad invasions anywhere from around 1000-1240..


    I can't prove we came from the East..yet.. (I might in the future depending on some results) but I can postulate and be correct as we have cousin in Cluj that somebody joined Pechenegs in 1068. there when they burned the fortress there and subsequently in 1092. when Cumans defeated the Pechenegs a bunch of these likely switched sides, those that didnt are found in Pecenjevce.


    So I think I might be of high quality likely precisely because my ancestors arrived to Balkans with Cumans.. This Cuman quality unlike the Balkan averageness is something worthy to be worked on and revived.. After all look at the Dasht-i Kipchak and compare it to your countries.


    So much for your "99 % of no connection" or whoever else's, it's more 99 % of certain connection.. For some of my relatives I might want to prove connection with this local family from Medieval, but like all Serbs who are not of Slavic/Germanic origin there is little interest. And that is understandable. After all once you remove the linguistic factor and the religious mumbo-jumbo that formed these modern nations what is there left?? Something else, and I do actually encourage people to act upon their Y-DNA results, and of lets say people of Slavic ancestry to incorporate elements of "naopagan" lore in their lives etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    As for my last name, it is mostly found in Italy, not one match in serbia. My hunch is that it is was an arbereshe Italian surname, they had their original surnames changed hundreds of years ago and my ancestor returned to Albania at some point
    Kastriotiiii, you still haven't tested for Y-DNA?? Well do it.. The Jevg purge how's that going?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    well i agree with you on what you said, personally i am very interested into why we have certain phenotypes, and maybe finding out what was the original illyrian one, if there was any.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Some theories say that albanians might have been illyrians coming from south serbia and because pf the arrival of slavs went southwards mixing with local epirote people (still to clarify what epirotes were), this would exlain why albanians share similarities with both jugos and greeks, but there aren't any big ones between greeks and jugos directly, without albanians as a bridge between them.
    Another factor of doubt is: why aren't modern albanians very tall? illyrians were but albanians are on the 1.74m tall average, neither 1.80 at least.
    My suggestion is because of the communist regime, personal example: My grandgrandfather was 1.95m, my grabdfather 1.92m and my father is 1.70m!!!!! (he is class 1973) and I (born and raised in italy) am 1.86m tall, so i think it is becasue of diet, I GUESS.
    And i would like to understand the origing of noric/nordic phenotypes among albanians, maybe we should open a thread about this and even involve the guy Nik, he seems to know something about the matter, and i would like to know more about it.
    I am 198cm tall myself. There are many Gheg Albanians growing up in the west reaching this height nowadays.

    Abundance of meat & dairy is important for height development, less intake of sugars when growing up also.

    Croatian males from Dalmatia were only 165cm back in the 1880s:


    This graph explains it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    No this is an error in the file they switched the STR names, all other samples also have 20-19 and that is impossible as the opposite are the values. So he must have 19-20 too. 390=24 and 460=10

    Yes you are right, he is similar to our clade but he has this two differences on slow mutating DYS390 and DYS460. According to Nevski, its highest chance for J2-PH1648.
    This is very highly speculative match, i would not consider this match too serious.








    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I don't know about Kosovo much nor do I care. I have nothing to do with Kosovo when it comes to ancestry.. I never read Urosevic.. If you have no close relatives among Serbs then you have different path.
    All my closest matches are approximately 900 - 1000 years, me and Nebojsa would probably form TMRCA 1000 years inside of Y22063 but its Batocanin with his low novels bringing TMRCA down.
    However some Serbs are saying that i am Serb because my closest relatives are Serbs and Urosevic said so. But no one is mentioning they are 1000 years away, from the time they were not Serbs themselves, even prior to none-Slavic Kriçi tribals.

    I knew that i will not have relatives among Malesia Albanians because we are not Malesia arrivals but i knew i will not have Serbs as relatives which would confirm Urosevic..

    Urosevic said we were Serbs 200 years ago.. Which is nonsense, we have memories at least 300 years, we know names of 7 generations and after that we know history by land distribution as long ago it was mostly in our possession being the oldest family in Zheger.

    I am currently working on testing other Albanian families that were also recorded as older families, therefore Serbs but i might already have result of one such family from Zheger and they got R1b haplogroup and no Serb relatives but also no Albanian ones.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    There are few M205 in S.Albania but they are different. In Aromanians from Andon Poci one such haplotype i na study, I guess some of your might be related to him..
    Yes i know they are different subclade, i upgraded their sample with SNP test.
    There is four clades at Albanians, which is fairly high diversity, but low percentage. With Albanian project, 23andMe and public studies i managed to come to about 10 Albanians with J2-M205 haplogroup.
    There is our Tosk cluster where Cabej and Celo fall, they have other Tosk matches. Then there is our Gogo cluster, he matches Aromun from Andon Poci, but he also matches Sicilian guy and Greek, and no other Aromuns except that one from Albania with closest match at Albanian. Both our Gogo and Tosk clusters are CTS1969 negative and Gogo cluster is actually also PF7321 negative, Tosk cluster is remained to be seen. I am third cluster so far still alone, but with two possible Y22059 23andme Albanians, both none responsive.
    And there is our fourth clade, from Bosch et al, Albanian from Tirana, M205 with DYS388 12 which is huge multistep difference. But we didnt manage to get any of these yet.

    Therefore even tho in low percentages, Albanians show very high diversity of J2-M205, and from since spreading with Phoenicians thru Mediterranean Sea, it for sure had contact with Illyrians long ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    That's more of an urban myth. Albanian alphabet has 36 letters that represent 36 phonemes, like 30 in Serbo-Croatian. But French with far less letters has alot more different sounds, not to speak of Danish in both of which I am also fluent.
    But Albanian is comparatively harder than most European languages.

    So you speak fluent Turkish, Danish, French, Serbo Croatian, English, and you know Albanian grammar, but you dont speak Avar language. I told you that you are Albanian


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    You came to t r o l l me because you thought I was some Serb who would be upset with Y-DNA result. Some of my "cousins" might be upset because they are Serbs but I am glad I am not of Slavic hg, unlike most Serbs of E-V13 I like my haplogroup, and precisely because I am "Serb" and not Serb I am interested in it. And when it comes to my super brainpower, I was thinking what in terms of my ancestry might distinguish me from your sea of averageness. Obviously its not so likely to be the Slavic or Paleo-Balkanic.. It is not only that but very different principles..
    I would never trøll you, and besides its not that you have haplogroup H1, E-v13 have plenty of Serbs especially Croatian/Bosnian Serbs and Montenegrins. But also South Serbs which are known for being Albanian like population.
    I read Poreklo long ago, i remember few Serbs were saying they dont want E-v13 because it associates you with Albanians while i remember few said they would want it because they want to be nephes of Vaso..

    I thought to myself this guy understands STRs SNPs, he is worthy one, unlike many of idiots trying to interpret something when not understanding basics like reading Yfull tree.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Btw you and Bachus are dead wrong.. I tracked down the ancestor of my Hungarian cousin. The documentary ancestor of that family was first mentioned in Mezősas in 1628. What I found is that among those who received the Coat of Arms from Prince of Transylvania there were in addition to him undeniably no less than 8 other people from Cumania (only counting surnames peculiar to Cumania), and for most ethnic Cuman origin can be argued, which was very weird as few years before that none of them were there and in 1628. they are more than 50 % there.. Why? 4 years earlier the same Prince answered the request of Cumans from there and he confirmed their privileges that dated from 1539. Why in Mezősas? Because same group served Bocskai in 1605. during his uprising for a short time during his revolt precisely in Mezősas. It is known they were there for a short time, but it makes sense they came back in 1628. because they had experience with the area.. My cousins surname was rare at that time but it does occur in the middle of Cumania in 1592., in fact as one person then had same name and was young at the time he could easily be the same person as the one in 1628.. Anyway the grandson of the guy from 1628 was one of the main guys in Cumania in 1702. after the Wiena War and his greatgrandson was present when the diploma from 1624. was brought up in 1717. because Cumans lost privileges in 1702 (they were returned in 1742). The family settled in the place where the tested is from only in 1768., but they were present before that in Cumania, and originally it seems they are from there (1592.) before the turbulent 17th century..
    As this surname was not mentioned in 1571., 21 years before, and it was formed of fathers name, the only 2 suitable persons descended of certain Cuman families...

    In the early 17th century Cuman was still spoken there but depopulation due to wars starting in 1595 had caused migrations. That is why even though the tested was from Karcag and his surname recorded there in 1592 I could not assume automatically they are connected because Karcag was depopulated in 1618. but soon after that in 1624. Cumans enrolled for the Prince of Transylvania, and this family was prominent in it, as they were when they came back to Cumania after the wars ended in late 17th century.
    If you prove this genetically, i will have no other option then to believe you. But your South Serb and Hungarian and other Balkan nearby matches alone prove on the contrary that you probably split around Balkan with your brother clade where South albanians fall in. So 900 BC if i remember correctly.





    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    And ofc, back to you once last time how do I know "this mutation" is important. Well for V13 accepted and established modal at dys385b is 18. Same goes for most Albanian BY4461, same for Swedish Z38456. Hungarian has 19 but other from Cluj has this modal 18.


    Meanwhile of commercially tested and from the studies in the Balkans I know no less than 14 hapotypes of my cluster and absolutely every single one of them has 385b=17. That is clearly an innovation, a back mutation. Newer one obviously. If Hungarian is Cuman and he is 99% so are all Balkanites automatically (and generally they look similar to each other suggesting TMRCA of about 1000 ybp), but ofc I have some proof for us in the Balkans as well.. I make exception for the ones found in Pecenjevce (and their cousin in Sofia), they are Pecheneg.. Simultaneously as said Northern haplotypes being from N.Transylvania and being close geographically to other Hungarians of the E-Y81971 clade, being not far from Ukrainian who are other Z17107* (Z38456-), In Lavov there is likely anonymous haplotype of this other Russian Z38456- clade too.. It does clearly indicate where Z17107 comes from, you have 4 Z17107+, Z38456- in the Middle Carpathian region.. And my cluster came in Nomad invasions anywhere from around 1000-1240..


    I can't prove we came from the East..yet.. (I might in the future depending on some results) but I can postulate and be correct as we have cousin in Cluj that somebody joined Pechenegs in 1068. there when they burned the fortress there and subsequently in 1092. when Cumans defeated the Pechenegs a bunch of these likely switched sides, those that didnt are found in Pecenjevce.


    So I think I might be of high quality likely precisely because my ancestors arrived to Balkans with Cumans.. This Cuman quality unlike the Balkan averageness is something worthy to be worked on and revived.. After all look at the Dasht-i Kipchak and compare it to your countries.
    You know that you thought that you will be Y30991 negative, but you turned out positive, you see that its not that secure to use these marker predictions, even tho i understand that there is chance, but it would be better to wait for confirmation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    So much for your "99 % of no connection" or whoever else's, it's more 99 % of certain connection.. For some of my relatives I might want to prove connection with this local family from Medieval, but like all Serbs who are not of Slavic/Germanic origin there is little interest. And that is understandable. After all once you remove the linguistic factor and the religious mumbo-jumbo that formed these modern nations what is there left?? Something else, and I do actually encourage people to act upon their Y-DNA results, and of lets say people of Slavic ancestry to incorporate elements of "naopagan" lore in their lives etc.
    I agree with investigating Y-DNA and going with the traditions of it : )

    Since when Serbs want Germanic connection? Isn't a Russian more preferable one? Serbs are really heterogeneous and there is chance for many haplogroups. But Albanians also have good spindle.
    I am pretty happy with situation as it stands so far, i dont have neither Albanians and neither Serbs close, and i am kinda isolated : D

    I wonder where are are my 200 - 1000 ybp relatives tho.

    Serbs used to tell me we will find them soon, we will give free tests to Kosovo Serbs and there is South Serbia study going on, but that was years ago, i dont hear much of them lately after that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Yes you are right, he is similar to our clade but he has this two differences on slow mutating DYS390 and DYS460. According to Nevski, its highest chance for J2-PH1648.
    This is very highly speculative match, i would not consider this match too serious.

    Yes, I mean still those STR's are slower. At Serbian FTDNA project you see like 23 people with 67+ STR's and all bar one have DYS460=11, (one has 12), all have dys390=23. So those two combined seem like an enormous obstacle to this being member of your cluster. On the other hand yes he fits well in a clade under J2-PH1648/Z2453 which has dys460=10 + dys392=12 + dys390=24.. so as I said to Nebojsa back then this one is likely Z2453.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    All my closest matches are approximately 900 - 1000 years, me and Nebojsa would probably form TMRCA 1000 years inside of Y22063 but its Batocanin with his low novels bringing TMRCA down.
    However some Serbs are saying that i am Serb because my closest relatives are Serbs and Urosevic said so. But no one is mentioning they are 1000 years away, from the time they were not Serbs themselves, even prior to none-Slavic Kriçi tribals.


    I knew that i will not have relatives among Malesia Albanians because we are not Malesia arrivals but i knew i will not have Serbs as relatives which would confirm Urosevic..


    Urosevic said we were Serbs 200 years ago.. Which is nonsense, we have memories at least 300 years, we know names of 7 generations and after that we know history by land distribution as long ago it was mostly in our possession being the oldest family in Zheger.


    I am currently working on testing other Albanian families that were also recorded as older families, therefore Serbs but i might already have result of one such family from Zheger and they got R1b haplogroup and no Serb relatives but also no Albanian ones.

    Yes I think you are not close to any Serb main cluster of J-Y22059, and considering thus far those major ones have been profiled, Urosevic might have been wrong. And yes if you have some older evidence from Ottoman era, that comes as very good..


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Yes i know they are different subclade, i upgraded their sample with SNP test.
    There is four clades at Albanians, which is fairly high diversity, but low percentage. With Albanian project, 23andMe and public studies i managed to come to about 10 Albanians with J2-M205 haplogroup.
    There is our Tosk cluster where Cabej and Celo fall, they have other Tosk matches. Then there is our Gogo cluster, he matches Aromun from Andon Poci, but he also matches Sicilian guy and Greek, and no other Aromuns except that one from Albania with closest match at Albanian. Both our Gogo and Tosk clusters are CTS1969 negative and Gogo cluster is actually also PF7321 negative, Tosk cluster is remained to be seen. I am third cluster so far still alone, but with two possible Y22059 23andme Albanians, both none responsive.
    And there is our fourth clade, from Bosch et al, Albanian from Tirana, M205 with DYS388 12 which is huge multistep difference. But we didnt manage to get any of these yet.


    Therefore even tho in low percentages, Albanians show very high diversity of J2-M205, and from since spreading with Phoenicians thru Mediterranean Sea, it for sure had contact with Illyrians long ago.

    That is interesting, because among Serbs I believe other than Krici there was just one guy with a different haplotype. In a regional study of Croatia (1100 haplotypes) there are few M205's with 392=11. There are some Greek M205's at FTDNA but none have tested deeper clades, so nothing can be resolved without testing these older M205s, so it is good that you have began.. There is a Greek FTDNA 41153 and he has dys392=12.. So the home of Balkan M205 might be somewhere in the South, even Adriatic coast. I heard Nebojsa saying those Andon Poci had a Greek cousin from some study..


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    So you speak fluent Turkish, Danish, French, Serbo Croatian, English, and you know Albanian grammar, but you dont speak Avar language. I told you that you are Albanian
    And German, Swedish... Well I heard Balkan peoples pick up languages good, albeit I heard some complaints in that regard when it comes to accent. Westerners aren't that good at learning Balkan languages, albeit they don't need to be.. Well ,in any case I am (albeit distantly) related to a whole lot of Albanians of E-BY4461..
    About Avar, I know very little of Chuvash and Avar might have been Lir Turkic, or partially. I will get back to pick up more Albanian when I get time.. Albanian is a very unique language being only remaining Paleo-Balkan language alive (not counting Greek) and I do like Albanian when it comes to its traits..


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I would never trøll you, and besides its not that you have haplogroup H1, E-v13 have plenty of Serbs especially Croatian/Bosnian Serbs and Montenegrins. But also South Serbs which are known for being Albanian like population.
    I read Poreklo long ago, i remember few Serbs were saying they dont want E-v13 because it associates you with Albanians while i remember few said they would want it because they want to be nephes of Vaso..


    I thought to myself this guy understands STRs SNPs, he is worthy one, unlike many of idiots trying to interpret something when not understanding basics like reading Yfull tree.
    I went early into STRs because simply there weren't enough people deeper tested properly, and that is still the case.
    I think V13 is generally less popular. Interesting to me was one Serb from Kosovo when I read apricity, and his "waiting for results", "maternal Y-DNA: I2 Din"... When I see people stating their maternal Y-DNA I know they are often insecure about Y-DNA. I think he was supposed to be Bjelopavlic, not sure I guess he turned out that..


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    If you prove this genetically, i will have no other option then to believe you. But your South Serb and Hungarian and other Balkan nearby matches alone prove on the contrary that you probably split around Balkan with your brother clade where South albanians fall in. So 900 BC if i remember correctly.

    Yes 900 BC, but these are things that happened 800-1000 years ago, some 2000 years after our separation.. What it looks to me currently is that Albanian BY4461 migrated in Early Iron Age from North of Danube into Balkans as part of some IE group..


    As for my cousins, well this area of Hungary where I have a cousin is very understested and that will change and I expect to have more cousins too, possibly some closer ones..
    Also I know for a fact Hungarians are far more interested in that than any Serb cousins of mine for many reasons..



    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You know that you thought that you will be Y30991 negative, but you turned out positive, you see that its not that secure to use these marker predictions, even tho i understand that there is chance, but it would be better to wait for confirmation.

    I did not expect to be negative to Y30991, because it was assumed to be at the Z38456 level, to wchih I knew I was negative. And the problem is Y30991 was only isolated in 2017. So not present in FTDNA Pack, these Ukrainians, Americans are not tested to it. Even Russian who did BigY years ago had no info on Y30991, no info even on BY4425 (coverage wasn't as good then)..
    Recently in a new Kalmykian study appeared a haplotype very similar to one American Z17107* (matching several important older off-modals for that clade), in an earlier study one haplotype looked similar to my own clade. Also various good candidates at FTDNA..
    So more clades need to appear themselves at YFull for a better picture etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I agree with investigating Y-DNA and going with the traditions of it : )


    Since when Serbs want Germanic connection? Isn't a Russian more preferable one? Serbs are really heterogeneous and there is chance for many haplogroups. But Albanians also have good spindle.
    I am pretty happy with situation as it stands so far, i dont have neither Albanians and neither Serbs close, and i am kinda isolated : D

    I guess for some "Northern" origin is good even if its Germanic, for the others or most (more pan-Slavic) a big no no.. You see on that topic, how more often tested people reacted to R1a results than some other results.. For me, you don't get more Germanophiliac than myself because of my pan-Germanic linguistic skills..


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I wonder where are are my 200 - 1000 ybp relatives tho.


    Serbs used to tell me we will find them soon, we will give free tests to Kosovo Serbs and there is South Serbia study going on, but that was years ago, i dont hear much of them lately after that
    South Serbia that area is very poorly covered, some unpuslished study covered a number os samples, second problem is that many Serbs from Nish, Vranje area are going to have relatives across the border in Bulgaria and that makes them probably less willing to test..

    I know almost 500 Kosovo Serbs were tested, if someone was a match with you I guess that would have been known..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Yes I think you are not close to any Serb main cluster of J-Y22059, and considering thus far those major ones have been profiled, Urosevic might have been wrong. And yes if you have some older evidence from Ottoman era, that comes as very good..
    Its evident by my 385ab, 389II and 448. Well its not only about me, there is plenty of families written as that, we will have better picture when we get more results but i already have 3 surnames tested from my village that supposed to be Serbs and none of us got Slavic haplogroup and no Serbs as relatives which would confirm that. Also we are waiting one new test soon. When i get 4 surnames tested i will have very clear picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    That is interesting, because among Serbs I believe other than Krici there was just one guy with a different haplotype. In a regional study of Croatia (1100 haplotypes) there are few M205's with 392=11. There are some Greek M205's at FTDNA but none have tested deeper clades, so nothing can be resolved without testing these older M205s, so it is good that you have began.. There is a Greek FTDNA 41153 and he has dys392=12.. So the home of Balkan M205 might be somewhere in the South, even Adriatic coast. I heard Nebojsa saying those Andon Poci had a Greek cousin from some study..
    Deal with 392=12 is that its only identified in our 1000 years TMRCA group But clade is 5000 years old. Therefore there can be some sample that does not look similar to us STR wise or with 392=12 but still share some of our private SNPs.

    We know a lot about our clade today, we are one of 3 brother clades separated 5000 ybp, where our clade Y22059 is tied to Adriatic coast primarily thru Montenegro TMRCA 1000 years which goes with predispositions for Krici tribe, one clade is Palestinian, and one is pretty large there is Kuwaitis , Greeks, Qatari, Turks, Sicilians, French's, Armenian, Jordanian, Mumbai and Israeli Jewish cluster, and few more.. Our second row of relatives are Qatar, Sardinia, England.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    And German, Swedish... Well I heard Balkan peoples pick up languages good, albeit I heard some complaints in that regard when it comes to accent. Westerners aren't that good at learning Balkan languages, albeit they don't need to be.. Well ,in any case I am (albeit distantly) related to a whole lot of Albanians of E-BY4461..
    About Avar, I know very little of Chuvash and Avar might have been Lir Turkic, or partially. I will get back to pick up more Albanian when I get time.. Albanian is a very unique language being only remaining Paleo-Balkan language alive (not counting Greek) and I do like Albanian when it comes to its traits..
    I improved my Albanian a lot even tho i always knew it, now i can watch tv program from Albania and actually understand almost all whats said. But i always knew it since i was 5 years old i already knew Albanian and Croato Serbian because of kindergarten and ofc later school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    As for my cousins, well this area of Hungary where I have a cousin is very understested and that will change and I expect to have more cousins too, possibly some closer ones..
    Also I know for a fact Hungarians are far more interested in that than any Serb cousins of mine for many reasons..
    Hungary has lots West European, Balkan but also Slavic influence, i see they have both R1a and R1b and I2a1 and E-v13 in project.
    I think your Hungary relatives will end up disappointed but we will see, i would not bet against Albanians in this case : )


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    South Serbia that area is very poorly covered, some unpuslished study covered a number os samples, second problem is that many Serbs from Nish, Vranje area are going to have relatives across the border in Bulgaria and that makes them probably less willing to test..

    I know almost 500 Kosovo Serbs were tested, if someone was a match with you I guess that would have been known..

    Im sure if they would find me a match that would be like major news on Poreklo : )

    Perhaps after 500 free tests to Kosovo Serbs and South Serbia study they will give up ? How can i see results from these Kosovo Serbs and from this study, will they be published? Also how can i check STRs from Serbian project i want to know something about one R1b group and do they have one kind of haplotype?

    Did you see Albanian project published first complete analysis of Albanian Y lines? http://www.gjenetika.com/perberja-gj...-aterore-2019/
    I have few minor critics but im busy with other stuff now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Are you sure that your surname is etymologically Italian and not just Italian sounding or looking? There are Albanian surnames that look and sound Italian, doesn't mean that they are actually Italian surnames. Where in Albania are you from?
    My surname is exactly the same as a town in Campania, according to forebears my surname is mostly in Italy, but also somewhat in North and South America (USA, Canada, Brazil, Argentina etc)

    I found that weird so did some research:

    "The wave of migration from southern Italy to the Americas in 1900–1910 and 1920–1940 depopulated approximately half of the Arbëreshë villages"

    My dad's side (the surname and y dna I carry) were in Elbasan, my grandad was originally from Berat or his dad was. Either way it is probably a surname that was changed in Italy from it's original form a long time ago

    But I don't like speaking too much about myself here without having done a y dna test

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Im sure if they would find me a match that would be like major news on Poreklo : )
    Sure, main goal of Serbian DNA Project with arround 5000 samples is finding a match to one Albanian.


    Btw, speaking about that, check on Poreklo thread about last ''World DNA day'', there is one Y22063 from southern Serbia with 385ab=16-19, 389II=27 and 576=16.

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