Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[TaktikatEMalet]

Looking at some recent data what do people think about there being a strong link for these 3:

J2b L283
R1b Z2103
R1b Pf7562

Did all 3 come to the balkans together to form illyrians or a distinct illyrian tribe? There is also R1b L51 but this is difficult to assess without ancient dna since it is strong in North Italy. Can someone explain L51 to me?

[Aspurg]

Looking at some recent data what do people think about there being a strong link for these 3:

J2b L283
R1b Z2103
R1b Pf7562

Did all 3 come to the balkans together to form illyrians or a distinct illyrian tribe? There is also R1b L51 but this is difficult to assess without ancient dna since it is strong in North Italy. Can someone explain L51 to me?

Not all Z2103, you might make a case for Z2705. Its upstream sister branches have nothing to do with the Illyrians and are Thracian.

Albanian PF7563 stems from the proto-Luwian Ezero culture, they were likely pushed to Albanian areas by the Glina III culture (R-Y5587, E-BY3880..), I wouldn't exclude assimilation either. R-Z29758's separated from East Balkan clades 4600 ybp, around that time Ezero culture ended. Upstream Albanian PF7563's, Z29758- have recent East Balkan origin (Ezero descendants who stayed there).

It is hard to say what really formed Illyrians. None of those haplogroups have anything to do with the Urnfield wave which according to some views was also important in the formation of Illyrians. Urnfielders would have been R-L2 and some younger E-V13 clades..

[Progon]

It looks like it's universally agreed upon that Illyrians were Urnfield people, it really coincides with their appearance in the Balkans. I think there were various Indo-European peoples in the Balkans, the picture is way more complex than it appeared initially.

[TaktikatEMalet]

Not all Z2103, you might make a case for Z2705. Its upstream sister branches have nothing to do with the Illyrians and are Thracian.
Albanian PF7563 stems from the proto-Luwian Ezero culture, they were likely pushed to Albanian areas by the Glina III culture (R-Y5587, E-BY3880..), I wouldn't exclude assimilation either. R-Z29758's separated from East Balkan clades 4600 ybp, around that time Ezero culture ended. Upstream Albanian PF7563's, Z29758- have recent East Balkan origin (Ezero descendants who stayed there).
It is hard to say what really formed Illyrians. None of those haplogroups have anything to do with the Urnfield wave which according to some views was also important in the formation of Illyrians. Urnfielders would have been R-L2 and some younger E-V13 clades..

Interesting theories, I wish we had more Dna from late BC - early AD to figure things out. According to Greek history illyrians were around since 6th century BC so probably even before this and weapons have been found from that period. Does this not predate the urnfield culture by a few centuries?

Most albanian Z2103 is z2105. So according to recent views v13 came from central/north Europe, does that make it proto German? Where does i1 come into this? Could it explain why there is a fair amount of i1 m253 accompanying heavy v13 areas in balkans?

What is the history of germanic i1 vs v13

[Crank]

A lot of linguistic and cultural research support it to be Illyrian, somewhere north of the Jireck line in West / Central Balkans. There have been made some strong arguments against Thracian/Dacian origin by several historians. Albanian language does not match Thracian

The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean fortress. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Besi' . The structure here is the same as in many European languages:
thus the 'town of peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say Qytet i Pjetrit, not Pjeterqytet. If 'para' were the Albanian for 'ford, then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve' ; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa' , but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian.

[Denis87]

What's up with this thread and pseudo history ? Albanians claiming that south Serbia was Albanian 100 years ago, that Serbs with E haplogroup are Albanians, one narcissist claiming he is of superior origin than underdeveloped Balkan people ?

Just 200 years ago Kosovo was 2/3 Serb majority and south Serbia always was, great ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija began after first Serbo-Turkish war, in around 50 years Serbs went from being 2/3 of population to 1/3. As for south Serbia Albanians have been invading Serb villages, forcing Serbs out, killing, pillaging but south Serbia was freed already in 1878 and most of those bandits were kicked out, they went the same way they came, and also claiming Serbs from south Serbia have relatives in Bulgaria is random nonsense, bulgarisation didn't occur in south Serbia despite propaganda, and there are plenty of written records, material findings, family lore, and genetics about people in south Serbia to come to logical conclusion that Serbs are Serbs and Bulgarians are Bulgarians. As for haplogroups you can't just look at groups that emerged 10 000-40 000 years ago you have to look at the subclades, Serbs from Prizren area have just like Albanians E haplogroup, but they have been separated for over 5000 years and considering there were almost no Albanians in Kosovo 700 years ago, and that good part of central Albania and northern Albania was Slavic (Serbs, Macedonians, Muslim Slavs) that is not that surprising.
As for Slavs and Illyrians and other peoples in ancient times, they have also been mixed if we go by thus far tested ancient tribes and peoples, for Thracian and Illyrian haplogroup only confirmed examples so far, if I'm not mistaken, is G2 example found in Dalmatia and one or more in Bulgaria. In 10-20 years we will probably have more evidence from ancient remains and we will knock our selves out who had ancestors in what ancient tribe. For me personally I was hopping to get something rare and interesting like Eskimo haplogroup, but statistics were not on my side.

[Denis87]

Looking at some recent data what do people think about there being a strong link for these 3:
J2b L283
R1b Z2103
R1b Pf7562
Did all 3 come to the balkans together to form illyrians or a distinct illyrian tribe? There is also R1b L51 but this is difficult to assess without ancient dna since it is strong in North Italy. Can someone explain L51 to me?

If you read the article on wiki wiki/Haplogroup_R-M269, you can see that its pretty old and diverse with different origins even in Europe. Balkan like east Europe is a crossroad everyone came trough, its impossible to tell without getting more specific about younger mutations and even then it might be impossible, what makes you think that Illyrians were same or even related to each other, tribe wise ? If my memory serves me well I read a lot of books about Illyrians, Kelts and Albanians in highschool, there was a theory that Illyrians came around the Alps trough north Italy into the Balkan peninsula 2400 BC, but that is not confirmed its a theory. R1b has been in Europe for over 8 000 years so it it might have been among the founders of Illyrian, Italic, Etruscan etc tribes R1b is very common in Italy. So it might have come from Italy to Balkan with Romans or other way around, or it might be much older which is more likely, people have been moving around for a long time. Here is one article speculating a little based on the age of the haplogroup indo-european eu/2018/08/on-the-origin-of-haplogroup-r1b-l51-in-late-repin-early-yamna-settlers/

[TaktikatEMalet]

If you read the article on wiki wiki/Haplogroup_R-M269, you can see that its pretty old and diverse with different origins even in Europe. Balkan like east Europe is a crossroad everyone came trough, its impossible to tell without getting more specific about younger mutations and even then it might be impossible, what makes you think that Illyrians were same or even related to each other, tribe wise ? If my memory serves me well I read a lot of books about Illyrians, Kelts and Albanians in highschool, there was a theory that Illyrians came around the Alps trough north Italy into the Balkan peninsula 2400 BC, but that is not confirmed its a theory. R1b has been in Europe for over 8 000 years so it it might have been among the founders of Illyrian, Italic, Etruscan etc tribes R1b is very common in Italy. So it might have come from Italy to Balkan with Romans or other way around, or it might be much older which is more likely, people have been moving around for a long time. Here is one article speculating a little based on the age of the haplogroup indo-european eu/2018/08/on-the-origin-of-haplogroup-r1b-l51-in-late-repin-early-yamna-settlers/

Majority of R1b in balkans is quite different to Western Europe, L51 is quite rare in most regions of balkans

[Gannicus]

I never said that is their main goal, but as you know they are fanatically often trying to prove some of their weird theories.
Like Albanian clans being of Serb origin or Sanxhak Muslims being actually Muslim Serbs and plenty of similar propaganda.

I am probably the most mentioned Albanian member, and they mentioned my family plenty of times, and they mentioned my name and surname multiple times, even tho they were mentioning others also, but not that much : )
This special attention they are giving me is a bit annoying.





Well as being old Kosovo family there is no wonder that i will probably get few serbicized matches, i see that he is from Prokupje. Dont forget that it was Albanian Vilayet only 100 years ago and South Serbia population is very Albanian like as in most part their assimilation is recent.

Sjenica - Nis - Shkup triangle was very Albanian populated only 100 years ago, and many of them today saying they are Serbs are actually recent asimilants.

Even Serbs agree that M205 Serbs were all assimilated in last 500 years, so i dont see what are we talking about here.

Hey man, you seem to know a lot in regards to subclades:
What definitive proofs do we have of albanians being descendants of the illyrians from a genetic perspective?

Why couldn't the dacian theory be true? We have many similarities with vlachs/romanians.

What do you think about I2b and R1a present among albanians?
I don't like the easy liquidation of these 2 haplos as just "mahhhh slavic".

I think there is morea that this.

Arbreshës got significant I2b amounts, albanians have 15% and 10% R1a, I don't believe 25% of albos are slav.

+ what about albanians scoring mostly south italian autosomally? When did we connect with greeks?
They have J2a wich we don't have, we should have far different results, yet we score high on greek.

Just little suggestion, very speculative:
Why couldn't albanians originally be dacians and have R1a and I2b
Just wondering and speculating with my little knowledge of genetics.

[Gannicus]

Hey guys, what do you think about this?

It's the genetic makeup of a supposedly dacian man, who lived in hungary in the 8th century, that when tested, scored closest to kosovo albanians and tosk albanians.

His haplogroup is R1a.

https://ibb.co/KDKPP4J

[Dibran]

Hey guys, what do you think about this?

It's the genetic makeup of a supposedly dacian man, who lived in hungary in the 8th century, that when tested, scored closest to kosovo albanians and tosk albanians.

His haplogroup is R1a.

https://ibb.co/KDKPP4J

Distances over 5 are considered relatively far. Sample/burial is also classified as Avar and the R1a is Z93(not generally common in the Balkan R1a variety). Probably a low quality sample. Though I do know a few Albanian women with that mtDNA.

[Dibran]

Hey man, you seem to know a lot in regards to subclades:
What definitive proofs do we have of albanians being descendants of the illyrians from a genetic perspective?
Why couldn't the dacian theory be true? We have many similarities with vlachs/romanians.
What do you think about I2b and R1a present among albanians?
I don't like the easy liquidation of these 2 haplos as just "mahhhh slavic".
I think there is morea that this.
Arbreshës got significant I2b amounts, albanians have 15% and 10% R1a, I don't believe 25% of albos are slav.
+ what about albanians scoring mostly south italian autosomally? When did we connect with greeks?
They have J2a wich we don't have, we should have far different results, yet we score high on greek.
Just little suggestion, very speculative:
Why couldn't albanians originally be dacians and have R1a and I2b
Just wondering and speculating with my little knowledge of genetics.

R1a/I2a is not diverse/dominant among Albanians. The greatest diversity can be found in Central/Central-East Europe. Most clades in Albanians only have founder effects/bottlenecks that date from late antiquity to early medieval with tribes north of the Danube. There is also no Dacian graves. The closest of which(Thracian) bore R1a-Z93 - unrelated to modern Z93 clades(Bronze Age) and E-V13(Iron Age). Bronze Age sites in Serbia(Mokra) had J2b-L283 and R1b. Bronze Age Dalmatian sample was also J2b-L283.

The only ancient DNA for most Balkan derived R1a/I2a can be sought further North. I am sure some became part of cultures but saying Proto-Albanians were possibly originally R1a/I2a and Dacian is a big stretch. No evidence to support either.

[DuPidh]

Hey man, you seem to know a lot in regards to subclades:
What definitive proofs do we have of albanians being descendants of the illyrians from a genetic perspective?
Why couldn't the dacian theory be true? We have many similarities with vlachs/romanians.
What do you think about I2b and R1a present among albanians?
I don't like the easy liquidation of these 2 haplos as just "mahhhh slavic".
I think there is morea that this.
Arbreshës got significant I2b amounts, albanians have 15% and 10% R1a, I don't believe 25% of albos are slav.
+ what about albanians scoring mostly south italian autosomally? When did we connect with greeks?
They have J2a wich we don't have, we should have far different results, yet we score high on greek.
Just little suggestion, very speculative:
Why couldn't albanians originally be dacians and have R1a and I2b
Just wondering and speculating with my little knowledge of genetics.

Very Good observations! Yes you have no genetic knowledge. As such is better for you to shut up!

[TaktikatEMalet]

Hey man, you seem to know a lot in regards to subclades:
What definitive proofs do we have of albanians being descendants of the illyrians from a genetic perspective?
Why couldn't the dacian theory be true? We have many similarities with vlachs/romanians.
What do you think about I2b and R1a present among albanians?
I don't like the easy liquidation of these 2 haplos as just "mahhhh slavic".
I think there is morea that this.
Arbreshës got significant I2b amounts, albanians have 15% and 10% R1a, I don't believe 25% of albos are slav.
+ what about albanians scoring mostly south italian autosomally? When did we connect with greeks?
They have J2a wich we don't have, we should have far different results, yet we score high on greek.
Just little suggestion, very speculative:
Why couldn't albanians originally be dacians and have R1a and I2b
Just wondering and speculating with my little knowledge of genetics.

The hell you on about, albanians have ~10% (8% P37 & 2% Z280) Slavic y dna at the most not 25%, actually it's less than that because North albanians have about 6-7% Slavic y dna and they have had most tests so their results are less skewed

Romanians have a lot more Slavic y dna than albanians, South albanians have some greek ancestry (~5%)

[TaktikatEMalet]

Hey guys, what do you think about this?
It's the genetic makeup of a supposedly dacian man, who lived in hungary in the 8th century, that when tested, scored closest to kosovo albanians and tosk albanians.
His haplogroup is R1a.
https://ibb.co/KDKPP4J

This is very rare in albanians today how did you make this claim? R1a z93 is almost non existant in albanians, there is this -

"The Corded Ware period was followed in the steppes by the Srubna culture (1800-1200 BCE), and around Poland by the Trzciniec culture (1700-1200 BCE). Mathieson et al. (2015) and Krzewinska et al. (2018) each retrieved the Y-DNA from six Srubna individuals, and all 12 of them belonged to haplogroup R1a. Those tested for deep clades were positive for Z93, the Indo-Iranian branch."

But I've also heard that Roma people carry Z93?

[Gannicus]

Distances over 5 are considered relatively far. Sample/burial is also classified as Avar and the R1a is Z93(not generally common in the Balkan R1a variety). Probably a low quality sample. Though I do know a few Albanian women with that mtDNA.

The guy who sent me this said that it was classified as avar just because who researched it found it in a part of hungary that was settled by avars.

[Gannicus]

R1a/I2a is not diverse/dominant among Albanians. The greatest diversity can be found in Central/Central-East Europe. Most clades in Albanians only have founder effects/bottlenecks that date from late antiquity to early medieval with tribes north of the Danube. There is also no Dacian graves. The closest of which(Thracian) bore R1a-Z93 - unrelated to modern Z93 clades(Bronze Age) and E-V13(Iron Age). Bronze Age sites in Serbia(Mokra) had J2b-L283 and R1b. Bronze Age Dalmatian sample was also J2b-L283.

The only ancient DNA for most Balkan derived R1a/I2a can be sought further North. I am sure some became part of cultures but saying Proto-Albanians were possibly originally R1a/I2a and Dacian is a big stretch. No evidence to support either.

Thank you very much for your reply, really appreciate it.

I really can't find updated studies on genetics, linguistics and history, I really hate this difficulty of mine.

I know it sounds lazy out of me, but if you'd like, would you help me by providing some autosomal/Y-DNA studies about illyrians, thracians, dacians and ancient populations as a whole, and how they relate do modern albanians?

Thank you very much!

[Gannicus]

Very Good observations! Yes you have no genetic knowledge. As such is better for you to shut up!

I'm asking questions here and trying to learn, what's wrong with that?

[Gannicus]

This is very rare in albanians today how did you make this claim? R1a z93 is almost non existant in albanians, there is this -

"The Corded Ware period was followed in the steppes by the Srubna culture (1800-1200 BCE), and around Poland by the Trzciniec culture (1700-1200 BCE). Mathieson et al. (2015) and Krzewinska et al. (2018) each retrieved the Y-DNA from six Srubna individuals, and all 12 of them belonged to haplogroup R1a. Those tested for deep clades were positive for Z93, the Indo-Iranian branch."

But I've also heard that Roma people carry Z93?

Thanks for the info

[Gannicus]

Guys, to all those who are wondering:

I'm not here to claim random stuff and troll, i'm here because I wanna learn and because I see value in people like Dibran, Johane Derite, Trojet, Fatherland, Laberia and many others.

I see this thread as so static and dead and wanna keep it alive when I can + as I said, I have a hard time finding good sources.

I'm interested in genetics, history and language, and would like to really learn factual stuff in regards to these.

Can you give me a good list of books regarding the albanian language and history (particularly in regards to arvanites, first sources that testify albanian presence in the balkans and also what we know about albanians during late antiquity)

Thanks in advance, I'd really appreciate it.

[gjergj]

Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

Recently there has been a very large increase in sample size for Albanian population from inside Albania and neighboring countries.
They are under a Project called Rrenjet. Its Rrenjet dot com.
The sample is all Y dna tests and above 1,000 samples. The sample size is large enough, well spread and with a good % of high resolution test to help better understand the question posted on this thread.
I am not saying there was not data before but now we can have much more clarity.




I-Y3120

[gjergj]

The Rrenjet sample has a bit above to 1,000 Y dna results with good representation between north/Geg and south/Tosk. Sample size can be found here: rrenjet dot com. Apparently I cant post links without a certain nr of posts.
Based on this large and well balanced sample size (I have done a slight recalibration of sample size) haplogroup distribution in Albania is as follows:
- R1b-M269 - 20%
3% is R-PF7563 which based on its distribution and very high diversity looks like EBA. PF7563 seems to have a particularly high concentration compare to other countries in albanians/west balkans. from Bosnia to Korca area. The initial indication, based on subclades and tmrca means that its presence in greece is linked to Arvanitas movement and not antiquity.
16% is R-Z2103 particularly subclade Z2705, most likely LBA in northwest Balkans, that also has the highest diversity among Albanians also. They have a presence in each of the subclades below Z2705.
1% other R1b mostly L51
- J2b2-L283 - 16%
1% is clade Z631. The rest of L283 based on distribution, diversity looks like MBA in west Balkans.
- E-V13 - 28% Large diversity and distribution. Looks like LBA-IA in west Balkans
- I-Y3120 - 8%.
The North Dinaric portion is a bit larger than South Dinaric. Higher concentration south of Albania particularly as one gets closer to Greek-Albanian border. Based on high resolution tests majority seem to be from the initial sllavic migration 6-7 AD and not from the Bulgarian or Serbian kingdoms.
- R1a - 7.5%.
Same thing. Most seems to be from early sllavic migrations to the region.
- I-M253 - 5.5%. Fits with Gothic migration in the Balkans.
- J2a-M410 - 5%. Concentration mostly in the south. Some also in the north. Bronze Age distribution. Most clades seem to have a large distance with paralel clades from other countries. Not close to Greek J2a thus far.
- J-M267 - 3%. Concentration mostly in the south. Most of it Iron age distribution.
- I-M223 - 2.5%. some of it appears Gothic distribution. The rest looks like a Bronze Age distribution in west balkans.
- G - 1 %. Some Neolithic and some Bronze age.
- E-M123 - 1%. Most should be Roman period.
- Other

There is also inside the sample smaller samples from the minorities in Albania.
Golloborda
Vlach/Aromanians
Greek minority in the south.

[cybernautic]

Lets see how much of the Albanian Y DNA is truly Albanian

[blevins13]

Lets see how much of the Albanian Y DNA is truly Albanian

They are all Albanian now, the important question here, like in the Greek case, is which line or which lines were the carriers of the Albanian language?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

[gjergj]

Lets see how much of the Albanian Y DNA is truly Albanian

Based on the current numbers around 73% are lines that continue from neolithic/bronze and iron. most is bronze and iron.
the rest is slavic, gothic and celts plus smaller other.
Of course more and deeper tests will give even more clarity but this looks like a solid interpretation based on the current data as far as Y dna is concerned.