Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 47 of 53 FirstFirst ... 374546474849 ... LastLast
Results 1,151 to 1,175 of 1312

Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #1151
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    [QUOTE=blevins13;621328]They are all Albanian now, the important question here, like in the Greek case, is which line or which lines were the carriers of the Albanian language?




    I agree. The more important thing is to understand how this groups were layered on top of each other and how they influenced the mix.

  2. #1152
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    They are all Albanian now, the important question here, like in the Greek case, is which line or which lines were the carriers of the Albanian language?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Impossible to answer especially without ancient dna though you can rule out i2a-din and some r1a, you can rule out all j2a and j1 - some of these seem to be from greeks or roman period and some recent

    I believe proto albanian language was formed by 2 or more "illyrian" groups that survived and expanded post early roman era

    Group 1 = combination of v13 + maybe some r1a and some i1/i2 m223

    And

    Group 2 = dardani illyrians = j2b l283 + r1b z2103

    PF7563 is likely too old to have anything to do with illyrians and it is not frequent enough to be important in carrying proto albanian language at 3.5% - though for some reason it it still most common in albanians. Maybe pf7563 is proto illyrian or ancient greek, or something to do with urnfield? Either way it looks to have survived mainly amongst albanians tho clearly outnumbered

  3. #1153
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Impossible to answer especially without ancient dna though you can rule out i2a-din and some r1a, you can rule out all j2a and j1 - some of these seem to be from greeks or roman period and some recent
    I believe proto albanian language was formed by 2 or more "illyrian" groups that survived and expanded post early roman era
    Group 1 = combination of v13 + maybe some r1a and some i1/i2 m223
    And
    Group 2 = dardani illyrians = j2b l283 + r1b z2103
    PF7563 is likely too old to have anything to do with illyrians and it is not frequent enough to be important in carrying proto albanian language at 3.5% - though for some reason it it still most common in albanians. Maybe pf7563 is proto illyrian or ancient greek, or something to do with urnfield? Either way it looks to have survived mainly amongst albanians tho clearly outnumbered
    That's a tough question and may be the language carrier would be the last question to be solved but from the main haplgoups that are more specific to albanians:
    E-V13 its a candidate but I doubt it was the language carrier. considering e-v13 spread in the thracians as well if they were the language carriers there would have been stronger similarities among Illyran and Thracians. I know its an indirect argument but its worth putting on the table.
    In my opinion the best candidates are R1b-PF7563, J2b2 and R1b-Z2103. Despite the fact that E-V13 has a high % in the current population its arrival is too late compare to the other haplos in antiquity.
    As of these three candidates I can't say. may be J2b2 has a better chance.
    Regarding PF7563 it has nothing to do with the greeks as of today based on DNA tests. all greeks as of today that have PF7563 are linked to Arvanitas movements. Based on DNA test PF7563 is spread from Bosnia to Korca region. it has very good diversity and spread but low % in the population as you pointed out. So its definitively a proto Illyrian line. As to the actual role that has played that remains to be discovered.
    From some preliminary ancient dna test that are being conduced currently from archeological remains in Albanian territories from north albania PF7562/3 from early bronze age and J2B2 mid and late bronze age has been identifies. nothing has been published yet but these two results are for certain. lets wait as more are in the process.

  4. #1154
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    That's a tough question and may be the language carrier would be the last question to be solved but from the main haplgoups that are more specific to albanians:
    E-V13 its a candidate but I doubt it was the language carrier. considering e-v13 spread in the thracians as well if they were the language carriers there would have been stronger similarities among Illyran and Thracians. I know its an indirect argument but its worth putting on the table.
    In my opinion the best candidates are R1b-PF7563, J2b2 and R1b-Z2103. Despite the fact that E-V13 has a high % in the current population its arrival is too late compare to the other haplos in antiquity.
    As of these three candidates I can't say. may be J2b2 has a better chance.
    Regarding PF7563 it has nothing to do with the greeks as of today based on DNA tests. all greeks as of today that have PF7563 are linked to Arvanitas movements. Based on DNA test PF7563 is spread from Bosnia to Korca region. it has very good diversity and spread but low % in the population as you pointed out. So its definitively a proto Illyrian line. As to the actual role that has played that remains to be discovered.
    From some preliminary ancient dna test that are being conduced currently from archeological remains in Albanian territories from north albania PF7562/3 from early bronze age and J2B2 mid and late bronze age has been identifies. nothing has been published yet but these two results are for certain. lets wait as more are in the process.
    Likely V13 came from east and split into illyrians and thracians early on - some moved to west balkans some stayed in east. Some v13 in east europe is actually albanian anyway not thracian. The romans used illyrians first in their army and with them spread the genetics across europe - that is why v13 looks so widespread.

    Most thracians were wiped out and lost their language to south slavs ( some to romans before) - i doubt all v13 in east europe is thracian at all - it could be thracians carried something completely different which will be determined by ancient dna. As for it being too late - that is also something we can say about r1b z2705 yet a lot of albanians carry it. Illyrians are a younger group than the ancient greeks - they formed after 1000bc which is why i said pf7563 is likely too old to be illyrian

    In terms of j2b l283 - it is a candidate for sure but likely it is not enough to carry the proto albanian language especially in the south - the proto albanians were not made up of just 1 or 2 haplogroups - it would be at least 4-5 in order to keep the language alive into modern times
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 22-03-21 at 14:23.

  5. #1155
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Likely V13 came from east and split into illyrians and thracians early on - some moved to west balkans some stayed in east. Some v13 in east europe is actually albanian anyway not thracian. The romans used illyrians first in their army and with them spread the genetics across europe - that is why v13 looks so widespread.

    Most thracians were wiped out and lost their language to south slavs ( some to romans before) - i doubt all v13 in east europe is thracian at all - it could be thracians carried something completely different which will be determined by ancient dna. As for it being too late - that is also something we can say about r1b z2705 yet a lot of albanians carry it. Illyrians are a younger group than the ancient greeks - they formed after 1000bc which is why i said pf7563 is likely too old to be illyrian

    In terms of j2b l283 - it is a candidate for sure but likely it is not enough to carry the proto albanian language especially in the south - the proto albanians were not made up of just 1 or 2 haplogroups - it would be at least 4-5 in order to keep the language alive into modern times
    Thats why I said proto illyrian for pf7563 and not illyria. we could say the same for j2b2 as well. proto illyrian. We know that Illyrians were identified by name latter than the greeks by the other. we don't know when they actually coalesced around some common identity. it could be recent or much older. we just don't know.
    of course all groups carried multiple haplogroups. We have some indoeropean G in albania but we are still trying to pint point the dominant group of a particular wave.
    around 45% of bulgarian population today is non slavic haplogroups. so thracians were wiped linguistically but not genetically.
    I am not sure why you think that some e-v13 in eastern europe is illyrian. the romans were not involved in east europe much. even east balkans they left quickly.
    check out the largest database for albania Y dna at rrenjet dot com. also Yull. I don't see any results to support your e v13 argument .
    I agree with you that the lack of j2b2 in the south is a point against j2b2 being the language carriers.

  6. #1156
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    Thats why I said proto illyrian for pf7563 and not illyria. we could say the same for j2b2 as well. proto illyrian. We know that Illyrians were identified by name latter than the greeks by the other. we don't know when they actually coalesced around some common identity. it could be recent or much older. we just don't know.
    of course all groups carried multiple haplogroups. We have some indoeropean G in albania but we are still trying to pint point the dominant group of a particular wave.
    around 45% of bulgarian population today is non slavic haplogroups. so thracians were wiped linguistically but not genetically.
    I am not sure why you think that some e-v13 in eastern europe is illyrian. the romans were not involved in east europe much. even east balkans they left quickly.
    check out the largest database for albania Y dna at rrenjet dot com. also Yull. I don't see any results to support your e v13 argument .
    I agree with you that the lack of j2b2 in the south is a point against j2b2 being the language carriers.
    I believe south and north albanians ultimately come from different illyrian (and a few non illyrian) groups - this is why the language not so much but the accent at least is slightly different. It also has to do with the split in the roman era but i doubt that would have such an effect, it likely goes back a few hundred years before that

    First of all, Thracians did not only COMPLETELY lose their language to south slavs some of them had already lost it to romans (see romanians and vlachs/aromanians). I believe Romans after conquering illyrians realised they could use them instead of wipe them all out, they were some of the first groups of people conquered. I believe a lot of the v13 found in east europe is from illyrian romans as you will also find r1b u152 and j2a in east europe which came from romans and you again find all 3 widespread in regions romans conquered (spain, france, britain) yet these are in very tiny amount amongst albanians (only a few in south). I believe one day ancient dna will showcase this clearly.

    Haplogroup G in albania is very small and likely ancient greek. And yes j2b l283 is a big mystery - it could be anything including illyrian - it may be a thracian representative or something to do with dardani if they were a seperate group or even etruscan

    You cannot simply assume that the 45% of non slavic dna in Bulgarians (would be great to have the link to this data) is all thracian but yes likely that thracians were already carrying more than just 1 haplogroup. Like I said thracian dna was already dimished by romans and then even further south slavs - dependant on how much y dna bulgaria carries that is roman or illyrian you can figure out the small percentage that remained of thracian. It is possible thracians carried a form of r1a and maybe r1b - they were sometimes described as redheads

  7. #1157
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I believe south and north albanians ultimately come from different illyrian (and a few non illyrian) groups - this is why the language not so much but the accent at least is slightly different. It also has to do with the split in the roman era but i doubt that would have such an effect, it likely goes back a few hundred years before that

    First of all, Thracians did not only COMPLETELY lose their language to south slavs some of them had already lost it to romans (see romanians and vlachs/aromanians). I believe Romans after conquering illyrians realised they could use them instead of wipe them all out, they were some of the first groups of people conquered. I believe a lot of the v13 found in east europe is from illyrian romans as you will also find r1b u152 and j2a in east europe which came from romans and you again find all 3 widespread in regions romans conquered (spain, france, britain) yet these are in very tiny amount amongst albanians (only a few in south). I believe one day ancient dna will showcase this clearly.

    Haplogroup G in albania is very small and likely ancient greek. And yes j2b l283 is a big mystery - it could be anything including illyrian - it may be a thracian representative or something to do with dardani if they were a seperate group or even etruscan

    You cannot simply assume that the 45% of non slavic dna in Bulgarians (would be great to have the link to this data) is all thracian but yes likely that thracians were already carrying more than just 1 haplogroup. Like I said thracian dna was already dimished by romans and then even further south slavs - dependant on how much y dna bulgaria carries that is roman or illyrian you can figure out the small percentage that remained of thracian. It is possible thracians carried a form of r1a and maybe r1b - they were sometimes described as redheads
    I am afraid we are talking about different things. Its not important if some thracians were Latinized or not. We know that thracian language survived till the sllavic migration. That was the essence of the point. the rest could be another conversation.

    We can assume a lot of things but for the moment based on dna data of current population and ancient dna there is no indication that e-v13 in east roman is from roman period. on the contrary the data points that somewhere from central/east europe E-V13 spread in all directions especially south during LBA and IA. That is where the largest diversity of e-v13 is and its source of the demographic expansion. unless new data becames available all else is speculation.

    As of today based on current result there is absolutely on indication that haplogroup G in albania is from ancient greeks. some of it is neolithic that predates greeks, illyrians ect and some of it is indoeuropean G that came along with R1b and others from north caucasus. so again not based on data.

    may be with the expetion of some subclades of J2B2-Z631 that seem to be present in Bulgaria the majority of j2b2 is clearly west balkan and therefore linked with Illyrians. The data is quite clear on this one.

    This is not an assumption on the thracians. look at the studies of bulgarian haplos. around 45 have slavic haplos. around 45% seem like old thracian haplos and 10% seem like Celts, Goths and tartar/bulgarians, etc. This are rough nr. the idea is that thracian dna survived in significant nr. the language did not. you can find the data. may be its even in eupedia.
    You are over estimating the romans. there is no indication that they left any significant genetic footprint in the balkans. at Rrenjet we cant find much roman dna in the population. we can see dna from migrations but not much from occupations. so lots of sllavic and gothic dna/migrations.

  8. #1158
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    I am afraid we are talking about different things. Its not important if some thracians were Latinized or not. We know that thracian language survived till the sllavic migration. That was the essence of the point. the rest could be another conversation.
    We can assume a lot of things but for the moment based on dna data of current population and ancient dna there is no indication that e-v13 in east roman is from roman period. on the contrary the data points that somewhere from central/east europe E-V13 spread in all directions especially south during LBA and IA. That is where the largest diversity of e-v13 is and its source of the demographic expansion. unless new data becames available all else is speculation.
    As of today based on current result there is absolutely on indication that haplogroup G in albania is from ancient greeks. some of it is neolithic that predates greeks, illyrians ect and some of it is indoeuropean G that came along with R1b and others from north caucasus. so again not based on data.
    may be with the expetion of some subclades of J2B2-Z631 that seem to be present in Bulgaria the majority of j2b2 is clearly west balkan and therefore linked with Illyrians. The data is quite clear on this one.
    This is not an assumption on the thracians. look at the studies of bulgarian haplos. around 45 have slavic haplos. around 45% seem like old thracian haplos and 10% seem like Celts, Goths and tartar/bulgarians, etc. This are rough nr. the idea is that thracian dna survived in significant nr. the language did not. you can find the data. may be its even in eupedia.
    You are over estimating the romans. there is no indication that they left any significant genetic footprint in the balkans. at Rrenjet we cant find much roman dna in the population. we can see dna from migrations but not much from occupations. so lots of sllavic and gothic dna/migrations.
    It doesnt make sense for v13 to survive more amongst albanians instead of lets say bulgarians and yet be of thracian origin. The thracians were decimated by romans (and illyrians) - romans placed large amounts of troops to hold it down as they often did for regions FAR from Rome like Britain. This is why you find plenty of roman y dna in places like east europe and britain but where then diminished by south slavs and anglo saxons respectively. It is extremelly important that they not only became latinized but a lot of them lost their language completely

    Thracians were almost wiped clean out - those that survived were diminished further by south slavs. There is very little red hair in Albanians where v13 is strong yet there is plenty more blonde (with only 7% i1). You need to understand that the thracians lost everything, land, language, genetics, appearance - you will never see an ancient group survive an invasion with a complete change of language - those that have sustained a language over vast periods of time usually have more continuity in terms of genetics

    As things stand right now I would suggest v13 and r1b z2103 are strongest candidates for illyrian expansion but we need ancient dna to confirm. Can you give me access to the bulgarian database?

  9. #1159
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    It doesnt make sense for v13 to survive more amongst albanians instead of lets say bulgarians and yet be of thracian origin. The thracians were decimated by romans (and illyrians) - romans placed large amounts of troops to hold it down as they often did for regions FAR from Rome like Britain. This is why you find plenty of roman y dna in places like east europe and britain but where then diminished by south slavs and anglo saxons respectively. It is extremelly important that they not only became latinized but a lot of them lost their language completely

    Thracians were almost wiped clean out - those that survived were diminished further by south slavs. There is very little red hair in Albanians where v13 is strong yet there is plenty more blonde (with only 7% i1). You need to understand that the thracians lost everything, land, language, genetics, appearance - you will never see an ancient group survive an invasion with a complete change of language - those that have sustained a language over vast periods of time usually have more continuity in terms of genetics

    As things stand right now I would suggest v13 and r1b z2103 are strongest candidates for illyrian expansion but we need ancient dna to confirm. Can you give me access to the bulgarian database?
    E-V13 spread during LBA/IA. during this process some became part of the thracians and some Illyrians and some Macedonian as well. so it does not have to be either or.
    Bulgarians today have a very high diversity of E-V13. Even higher than albanians. Most of E-V13 today in albanian population is from founder effect after the sllavic migraton. We don't know what % of population E-V13 had before. it could have been higher or lower.
    This has nothing to do with red hair.
    No I have no access to the bulgarian database but I am sure I have seen results for bulgaria somewhere. for albanian % the most accurate is the Rrenjet as it has the largest sample and very well distributed for all the regions.

  10. #1160
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-02-17
    Posts
    97


    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here are some(this is the "public" version-some more results are visible only to Bulgarian DNA Project members):https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    BG results uploaded to YFULL :

    https://www.google.com/search?q=bgr+...w=1920&bih=912


    You can check the FTDNA Y-tree too but the results should be already at YFull.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/A


    May want to check out a long thread named "E-v13 in Bulgarian Iron Age" on another forum (results from Reich's lab TBD this or next year).


    The Thracians were not subjected to extermination by any means and some tribes kept their language up until the Slavs and Bulgars' arrival (although the majority had adopted Latin ...or Greek to a lesser extent). The centuries under Roman rule up until the incursions from North seemed generally trouble free and a serious % of Roman soldiers were Thracians.

  11. #1161
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    E-V13 spread during LBA/IA. during this process some became part of the thracians and some Illyrians and some Macedonian as well. so it does not have to be either or.
    Bulgarians today have a very high diversity of E-V13. Even higher than albanians. Most of E-V13 today in albanian population is from founder effect after the sllavic migraton. We don't know what % of population E-V13 had before. it could have been higher or lower.
    This has nothing to do with red hair.
    No I have no access to the bulgarian database but I am sure I have seen results for bulgaria somewhere. for albanian % the most accurate is the Rrenjet as it has the largest sample and very well distributed for all the regions.
    Without access to a bulgarian database we have no proof and same case for lack of ancient dna. Like I said the language and the red hair are the most important factors to look at when discussing offspring of the thracians. I believe they were r1a and r1b people - v13 people have nothing to do with red hair

    There is no way at all v13 in albanians is founder effect after slavic invasions when northern albanians have 27%+ v13 and only 5% i2 din. South slavs have double i2 din over v13, dont speak nonsense.
    The reason for bulgarians having varied v13 is multiple - v13 travelled all over the place, it occupied south slavic regions, greece etc. All neighbouring regions of thracians. Some of it was put in thracian regions by illyrian romans who already changed them into romanians and aromanians, after that it was spread there through byzantine empire and also a large amount would have been spread there by the south slavs who completely outnumbered thracians, changed their language forever.

    If you look at bulgaria they have almost as much i2 din as serbia and obviously some v13 would have travelled to bulgaria alongside i2 din. Then we have the ottoman who carried v13 soldiers and would have obviously placed some in bulgaria too. When you look at all the ways v13 entered bulgaria over time you can understand why they would have diversity

  12. #1162
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    Here are some(this is the "public" version-some more results are visible only to Bulgarian DNA Project members):https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
    BG results uploaded to YFULL :
    https://www.google.com/search?q=bgr+...w=1920&bih=912
    You can check the FTDNA Y-tree too but the results should be already at YFull.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/A
    May want to check out a long thread named "E-v13 in Bulgarian Iron Age" on another forum (results from Reich's lab TBD this or next year).
    The Thracians were not subjected to extermination by any means and some tribes kept their language up until the Slavs and Bulgars' arrival (although the majority had adopted Latin ...or Greek to a lesser extent). The centuries under Roman rule up until the incursions from North seemed generally trouble free and a serious % of Roman soldiers were Thracians.
    Of course they were exterminated - they lost their language and they lost their red hair. To me if you compare bulgarian y dna with serbian you would see an almost complete population replacement - even some of the v13 travelled there with south slavs and if you look at their levels of r1b and j2b l283 that people which inhabited south slavic regions you could see that even they moved to bulgaria alongside v13 WITH the south slavic movement.

    Sure, some of it is also from roman era and byzantine and some from ottoman soldiers but it is possible that the bulk of south slavic dna in bulgaria is not just i2 din and slavic r1a but also v13, r1b and j2b

  13. #1163
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Of course they were exterminated - they lost their language and they lost their red hair. To me if you compare bulgarian y dna with serbian you would see an almost complete population replacement - even some of the v13 travelled there with south slavs and if you look at their levels of r1b and j2b l283 that people which inhabited south slavic regions you could see that even they moved to bulgaria alongside v13 WITH the south slavic movement.

    Sure, some of it is also from roman era and byzantine and some from ottoman soldiers but it is possible that the bulk of south slavic dna in bulgaria is not just i2 din and slavic r1a but also v13, r1b and j2b

    You are fixated with red hair :)

  14. #1164
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Without access to a bulgarian database we have no proof and same case for lack of ancient dna. Like I said the language and the red hair are the most important factors to look at when discussing offspring of the thracians. I believe they were r1a and r1b people - v13 people have nothing to do with red hair
    There is no way at all v13 in albanians is founder effect after slavic invasions when northern albanians have 27%+ v13 and only 5% i2 din. South slavs have double i2 din over v13, dont speak nonsense.
    The reason for bulgarians having varied v13 is multiple - v13 travelled all over the place, it occupied south slavic regions, greece etc. All neighbouring regions of thracians. Some of it was put in thracian regions by illyrian romans who already changed them into romanians and aromanians, after that it was spread there through byzantine empire and also a large amount would have been spread there by the south slavs who completely outnumbered thracians, changed their language forever.
    If you look at bulgaria they have almost as much i2 din as serbia and obviously some v13 would have travelled to bulgaria alongside i2 din. Then we have the ottoman who carried v13 soldiers and would have obviously placed some in bulgaria too. When you look at all the ways v13 entered bulgaria over time you can understand why they would have diversity
    I did not say all ev13 is founder effect. I said most is. look at the data. The reason albanian have high ev13 % is from founder effect. that does not mean we dont have some diversity and does not change the LBA/IA arrival period.

  15. #1165
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    I did not say all ev13 is founder effect. I said most is. look at the data. The reason albanian have high ev13 % is from founder effect. that does not mean we dont have some diversity and does not change the LBA/IA arrival period.
    Founder effect is nonsense really - founder effect is something that happens when there are no other men to compete with - when they have been wiped out. A founder effect of v13 in albania due to slavic invasion would mean that albania would have 45% i2 din and 20% slavic r1a in addition to the 27% v13 and would speak a south slavic language. As you can see those figures are absolute nonsense.

    When we find v13 in bulgaria from around 1000bc-500bc then we can consider it being thracian. Right now it looks impossible with the spread it has.

    With what i can see on the internet right now - bulgarians could be from 50-75% serbian.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene...0with%20lesser

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene..._on_Bulgarians

    Elevated levels of j2a in bulgarians is likely linked to romans as well as g2a and r1b - who already dimished thracians long before slavic invasion

  16. #1166
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Founder effect is nonsense really - founder effect is something that happens when there are no other men to compete with - when they have been wiped out. A founder effect of v13 in albania due to slavic invasion would mean that albania would have 45% i2 din and 20% slavic r1a in addition to the 27% v13 and would speak a south slavic language. As you can see those figures are absolute nonsense.
    When we find v13 in bulgaria from around 1000bc-500bc then we can consider it being thracian. Right now it looks impossible with the spread it has.
    With what i can see on the internet right now - bulgarians could be from 50-75% serbian.

    Elevated levels of j2a in bulgarians is likely linked to romans as well as g2a and r1b - who already dimished thracians long before slavic invasion
    Also did not say one founder either. as this is in some subclades not one.
    There is plenty of native J2a to the balkans. so where do you have some sort of proof that is roman? All J2a that we have found at Rrenjet thus far is all native and not from Roman based on distance TMRCA, etc. same is true for bulgarians based on Y full result.
    You are not basing your comments on data but presumptions. not even serbians have more than 60% slavic lines. how can bulgarians have more :)

  17. #1167
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,914

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    romans state this



    Appian gives the definition of the term ‘Illyrian’ as perceived by the Romans and it is clear that the Epirotes are again excluded: ‘These peoples [=i.e. the peoples considered by the Greeks to be Illyrian], and also the Pannonians, the Rhaetians, the Noricans, the Mysians of Europe, and the other neighboring tribes who inhabited the right bank of the Danube, the Romans distinguish from one another just as the various Greek peoples are distinguished from each other, and they call each by its own name, but they consider the whole of lllyria as embraced under a common designation.’ (The Illyrian Wars 1.6)[19] .



    After the flood of Deucalion, the region was settled by the Pelasgians. This can be confirmed by the following tradition which Plutarch (1st-2nd centuries AD) mentions: ‘Historians tell us that the first king of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the flood was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with PELASGUS’ (Life of Pyrrhus 1.1)[7] . The phrase ‘ONE of those who came with Pelasgus’ implies that Pelasgus led a group of settlers into the region, who, as it seems, were named ‘Pelasgians’ after their leader. And that the Epirotes (Molossians, Chaonians, Thesprotians etc.) were indeed Pelasgian can be seen from the following quotation: ‘Many have likewise asserted that the nations of Epirus are Pelasgic, because the dominions of the Pelasgi extended so far’ (Strabo ‘Geography’ 5.2.4).[8]


    Shaban Demiraj, one of the most prominent Albanian linguists and chairman of the Academy of Sciences of Albania from 1993–1997, has debunked such claims in his book ‘Epiri, pellazgët, etruskët dhe shqiptarët’ (‘Epirus, Pelasgians, Etruscans and Albanians’), where, in page 51, he writes: ‘the Pelasgian-Illyrian equation is not substantiated either historically or linguistically (barazimi pellazg-ilir nuk del i argumentuar as historikisht as gjuhësisht)’.



    according to ancient accounts, the Epirotes were Pelasgians. Epirotes are neither Illyrian nor Greek



    The Epirotes are ALWAYS differentiated from their northern neighbors (the Illyrians) and there is not a SINGLE mention that they belonged to the same nation.

    Under Rome...modern Albania was divided into old-Epirus ( southern part ) and new-Epirus ( northern part )
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  18. #1168
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    romans state this



    Appian gives the definition of the term ‘Illyrian’ as perceived by the Romans and it is clear that the Epirotes are again excluded: ‘These peoples [=i.e. the peoples considered by the Greeks to be Illyrian], and also the Pannonians, the Rhaetians, the Noricans, the Mysians of Europe, and the other neighboring tribes who inhabited the right bank of the Danube, the Romans distinguish from one another just as the various Greek peoples are distinguished from each other, and they call each by its own name, but they consider the whole of lllyria as embraced under a common designation.’ (The Illyrian Wars 1.6)[19] .



    After the flood of Deucalion, the region was settled by the Pelasgians. This can be confirmed by the following tradition which Plutarch (1st-2nd centuries AD) mentions: ‘Historians tell us that the first king of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the flood was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with PELASGUS’ (Life of Pyrrhus 1.1)[7] . The phrase ‘ONE of those who came with Pelasgus’ implies that Pelasgus led a group of settlers into the region, who, as it seems, were named ‘Pelasgians’ after their leader. And that the Epirotes (Molossians, Chaonians, Thesprotians etc.) were indeed Pelasgian can be seen from the following quotation: ‘Many have likewise asserted that the nations of Epirus are Pelasgic, because the dominions of the Pelasgi extended so far’ (Strabo ‘Geography’ 5.2.4).[8]


    Shaban Demiraj, one of the most prominent Albanian linguists and chairman of the Academy of Sciences of Albania from 1993–1997, has debunked such claims in his book ‘Epiri, pellazgët, etruskët dhe shqiptarët’ (‘Epirus, Pelasgians, Etruscans and Albanians’), where, in page 51, he writes: ‘the Pelasgian-Illyrian equation is not substantiated either historically or linguistically (barazimi pellazg-ilir nuk del i argumentuar as historikisht as gjuhësisht)’.



    according to ancient accounts, the Epirotes were Pelasgians. Epirotes are neither Illyrian nor Greek



    The Epirotes are ALWAYS differentiated from their northern neighbors (the Illyrians) and there is not a SINGLE mention that they belonged to the same nation.

    Under Rome...modern Albania was divided into old-Epirus ( southern part ) and new-Epirus ( northern part )
    Romans often mention illyria not epirus - epirus was further south. One of their leaders died in south greece peloponesse. Epirus was mostly greek land/people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus

    It is true that the dorians came from epirus down into greece and changed greek genetics and language though - epirote greeks/dorians would have had different dna to mycaneans and minoan greeks. Over time illyrians would have expanded into epirus and become bilingual

    It is true that most illyrians were north of "albania" where it is today but as time passed plenty moved south and then they were ultimately pushed down by south slavic invasion

  19. #1169
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,914

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Romans often mention illyria not epirus - epirus was further south. One of their leaders died in south greece peloponesse. Epirus was mostly greek land/people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus
    It is true that the dorians came from epirus down into greece and changed greek genetics and language though - epirote greeks/dorians would have had different dna to mycaneans and minoan greeks. Over time illyrians would have expanded into epirus and become bilingual
    It is true that most illyrians were north of "albania" where it is today but as time passed plenty moved south and then they were ultimately pushed down by south slavic invasion

    under Rome .....Albania was firstly incorporated into the area called Macedonia.....later it became New-Epirus ..........................this is because Macedonia ruled it for hundred plus years. Romans took it because Macedonia was an ally of Hannibal.

    The Roman province of Macedonia (Latin: Provincia Macedoniae, Ancient Greek: Ἐπαρχία Μακεδονίας) [2][3] was officially established in 146 BC, after the Roman general Quintus Caecilius Metellus defeated Andriscus of Macedon, the last self-styled king of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia in 148 BC, and after the four client republics (the "tetrarchy") established by Rome in the region were dissolved. The province incorporated the former kingdom of Macedonia with the addition of Epirus, Thessaly, and parts of Paeonia

  20. #1170
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    Also did not say one founder either. as this is in some subclades not one.
    There is plenty of native J2a to the balkans. so where do you have some sort of proof that is roman? All J2a that we have found at Rrenjet thus far is all native and not from Roman based on distance TMRCA, etc. same is true for bulgarians based on Y full result.
    You are not basing your comments on data but presumptions. not even serbians have more than 60% slavic lines. how can bulgarians have more :)
    Native to who?? Thracians were not j2a and neither were illyrians. J2a had to come from somewhere - the early greeks had plenty j2a and g2 so maybe thracians were heavily influenced by greeks early on -

    "Nobody would disagree that many Thracians were Hellenized at some point in time and that since the earliest interactions with the Greeks, Greek became an important language in the region. For many Thracians the most spoken second language. The Greek alphabet was used for Thracian coinage."

    Not enough testing has been done so far - things will connect over time and you will understand that most j2a + g2 moved from greece to south italy - then romans formed and carried r1b u152 in addition to j2a and g2 - spreading these across the world in addition to the foreign troops they deployed.

    As for Bulgaria the south slavic influence is undeniable - it is already obvious with the language they speak and their genetics too, even written history -

    "The first South Slavic polity and regional power was Bulgaria, a state formed in 681 as a union between the much numerous Slavic tribes and the bulgars of Khan Asparuh."

    Thracians were already heavily influenced by greeks - then half their people were replaced by romans to become romanians and aromanians and then the huge south slavic change. What makes you think bulgaria has much thracian influence left after this?? I wont even mention ottoman as by then people had already established big groups and populations

    I didnt say serbia is 100% made up of south slavs i said that the assimilated people may have also moved to bulgaria with them to explain some elevated levels of v13, j2b, r1b etc

  21. #1171
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    under Rome .....Albania was firstly incorporated into the area called Macedonia.....later it became New-Epirus ..........................this is because Macedonia ruled it for hundred plus years. Romans took it because Macedonia was an ally of Hannibal.

    The Roman province of Macedonia (Latin: Provincia Macedoniae, Ancient Greek: Ἐπαρχία Μακεδονίας) [2][3] was officially established in 146 BC, after the Roman general Quintus Caecilius Metellus defeated Andriscus of Macedon, the last self-styled king of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia in 148 BC, and after the four client republics (the "tetrarchy") established by Rome in the region were dissolved. The province incorporated the former kingdom of Macedonia with the addition of Epirus, Thessaly, and parts of Paeonia
    The map of epirus covers only a small portion of albania (the south) - most albanians live outside of that region and plenty in kosovo and macedonia in fact even further north prior to recent events

    Anyway - ancient epirus didnt have much to do with illyrians nor proto albanians who dont speak greek

    "Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times by seafarers along the coast and by hunters and shepherds in the interior who brought with them the Greek language.[1] These people buried their leaders in large tumuli containing shaft graves, similar to the Mycenaean tombs, indicating an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenaean civilization."

  22. #1172
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    romans state this



    Appian gives the definition of the term ‘Illyrian’ as perceived by the Romans and it is clear that the Epirotes are again excluded: ‘These peoples [=i.e. the peoples considered by the Greeks to be Illyrian], and also the Pannonians, the Rhaetians, the Noricans, the Mysians of Europe, and the other neighboring tribes who inhabited the right bank of the Danube, the Romans distinguish from one another just as the various Greek peoples are distinguished from each other, and they call each by its own name, but they consider the whole of lllyria as embraced under a common designation.’ (The Illyrian Wars 1.6)[19] .



    After the flood of Deucalion, the region was settled by the Pelasgians. This can be confirmed by the following tradition which Plutarch (1st-2nd centuries AD) mentions: ‘Historians tell us that the first king of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the flood was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with PELASGUS’ (Life of Pyrrhus 1.1)[7] . The phrase ‘ONE of those who came with Pelasgus’ implies that Pelasgus led a group of settlers into the region, who, as it seems, were named ‘Pelasgians’ after their leader. And that the Epirotes (Molossians, Chaonians, Thesprotians etc.) were indeed Pelasgian can be seen from the following quotation: ‘Many have likewise asserted that the nations of Epirus are Pelasgic, because the dominions of the Pelasgi extended so far’ (Strabo ‘Geography’ 5.2.4).[8]


    Shaban Demiraj, one of the most prominent Albanian linguists and chairman of the Academy of Sciences of Albania from 1993–1997, has debunked such claims in his book ‘Epiri, pellazgët, etruskët dhe shqiptarët’ (‘Epirus, Pelasgians, Etruscans and Albanians’), where, in page 51, he writes: ‘the Pelasgian-Illyrian equation is not substantiated either historically or linguistically (barazimi pellazg-ilir nuk del i argumentuar as historikisht as gjuhësisht)’.



    according to ancient accounts, the Epirotes were Pelasgians. Epirotes are neither Illyrian nor Greek



    The Epirotes are ALWAYS differentiated from their northern neighbors (the Illyrians) and there is not a SINGLE mention that they belonged to the same nation.

    Under Rome...modern Albania was divided into old-Epirus ( southern part ) and new-Epirus ( northern part )
    Because of the divisions that the Romans did it does not mean that was the border of Illyrian tribes. The romans had to take many things into account once they took over the area. one of those things was that macedonian had been the regional dominant power for the last few centuries with great infuence over the sourthern Illyrian tribes. Why would the romans change a status quo without any tangible benefits? so the argument that you present is very superficial and does not take into account a much more complex situation that a new empire had to manage. The new Epirus was for sure populated by Illyrians.
    We can tell from dna results of the population today which are the lines that have been there since antiquity and which are post roman/middle age migration to the south. Its for sure that Illyrians were further south than this roman division. At least Shkumbin river.
    Yes I agree there are no pelasgians left. pelasgians were the neolithic population and they have clearly been wiped out. no serious albanian historian has argued about pelasgians. at best some of them have left it an open question.
    Currently most of north epir is made of similar lines as north albania. but many of them are middle age migration to the south. the old epir lines seem distant from both greek lines and north albanian lines. so there must have been a transition area there. There is no dna evidence to link Epir old haplogroups with "dorian" in southern greece. Old epirotan lines in north epir/south albania are not pelasgians but bronze age and some Iron age. there are no significant neolithic lines in north epir. but this phenomen is more relevant to south west albania or north west epir.
    In south east albania/north east epir there are some BA/IA haplogroups that are similar to north albania. so the picture even here has many degrees.

  23. #1173
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    191


    Country: Albania



    I think "pelasgians" seem like nothing more than a storytime myth - almost like some mythical greek stories about zeus etc.

    If they existed they were likely some early people who inhabited the mediterranean regions but were wiped out by bigger groups of invaders - maybe R1B PF7562 have something to do with these old mythical people?

  24. #1174
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    45


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I think "pelasgians" seem like nothing more than a storytime myth - almost like some mythical greek stories about zeus etc.

    If they existed they were likely some early people who inhabited the mediterranean regions but were wiped out by bigger groups of invaders - maybe R1B PF7562 have something to do with these old mythical people?
    I doubt it was pf7562. they are indoeuropean is one reason they can not be pelasgian as Homer, which is the first written source for pelasgians clearly state that they spoke very different language. second reason there in no BA/IA pf7562 in greece as of now. all pf7562 that has been tested in greece is from albanian/arvanitas migration. so it cant be an haplogroup that did not exist in greece at the time as far as we know for the moment. look at the yfull distribution of pf7562/3.

  25. #1175
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,914

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    The map of epirus covers only a small portion of albania (the south) - most albanians live outside of that region and plenty in kosovo and macedonia in fact even further north prior to recent events
    Anyway - ancient epirus didnt have much to do with illyrians nor proto albanians who dont speak greek
    "Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times by seafarers along the coast and by hunters and shepherds in the interior who brought with them the Greek language.[1] These people buried their leaders in large tumuli containing shaft graves, similar to the Mycenaean tombs, indicating an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenaean civilization."

    you can see the first time the albani tribe named in Epirus nova (see map below )


Page 47 of 53 FirstFirst ... 374546474849 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Haplogroups in Albanians
    By Dale Cooper in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-02-18, 10:51
  2. Albanians (OFFTOPIC Macedonians)
    By Besir Bajrami in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 201
    Last Post: 04-09-14, 23:07
  3. Do they look albanians/montenegrins/bosnians etc.. ?
    By julia90 in forum Guess the Ethnicity
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 23-09-13, 13:43
  4. Replies: 281
    Last Post: 09-06-13, 11:51

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •