Of course I know those members under these "older" clades of J-L283, as I was the one who suggested they get the YFull analysis
Besides the ancient DNA, these new members will throw another challenge to the Sardinian hypothesis of J-L283 expansion.
Here is how the new basal J-L283 tree should look once their analysis is complete:
- J-L283
- YP29 (Sardinian + England. It would be interesting to see the TMRCA but I think likely Bronze Age. There is also two samples from Netherlands who are here from a scientific study)
- Z627* (Istanbul Turkey, thinks may be originally from Greece)
- Z600* (Dominican Republic)
- Z585 (mostly Italians)
- Z615* (England)
- Z597,Z628
- FGC64029 (Mediterranean + Lebanon)
- Z2507 (BA Dalmatia, Balkans, etc)
Since the BA Armenian was negative for Z627, he should indeed be J-L283* (I think he had no call for YP29).
Another thing to keep in mind is that there is two Balkan samples between L283 and Z585 levels, as I explained at the other thread. Point is, the Sardinian hypothesis is strongly challenged, and combined with aDNA evidence I think J-L283 expanded from East to West during the Bronze Age, and not from Sardinia to East. IMO, these Sardinian samples suggest some Bronze Age migration from perhaps NW Balkans that was rich in J-L283 "early" clades and got isolated there.
Generally, I've noticed a tendency of many people to associate anything with "Steppe destroyers". It's kinda popular.
Regarding Armenian sample, actually when I was first told of him, I misunderstood him for the lone Georgian on ftdna. Only after you told did I look at his SNP's.
So either L283 expanded from the East with IE's, or it might have arrived in Italy during very Early BA, like it was likely the case with Minoan J2a's (migration from the East).
Generally the problem with Italian/Sardinian theory is this Armenian sample.
The problem with Steppe IE is low presence of J-L283 in the East, especially older clades. Also at Z2505/Z585 level there is currently a bottleneck of 900 years, that one has to explain somehow. The bulk of L283 expansion is after this bottleneck. So the IE expansion of anything at/under Z597/Z2507 is in no doubt.
If we assume that 3300 BC (their current TMRCA) there were two IE groups in NW Balkans and that one branch went to Italy/Sardinia, and the other stayed there and later massively expanded we still have a problem with what sort of an IE migration could that have been? We are talking about Sardinia here. So these Italian clades being so old, older than BB's who were first IE to visit Sardinia and they did it later, pose a problem here.
As I said in another thread, the find had Litzen ware, which could be tied to one BB element in Ljubljana culture (the other, earlier was Vucedol and likely unrelated), some archaeologists like Slovenian Paola Korošec have suggested further ties with Italy, specifically Remedello culture. We know today Remedello was not IE, BB was, but if she could see Remedello elements in BB element, it might be telling.
BB's themselves where often called non-IE earlier by many because of numerous deviations, today we know that was not the case.
I think it might be also very useful to look at the Norabak find (Armenian J-L283), and just as I got many clues from Vanik find, it might be possible to do the same.
If it's about Balkan matters, situation is quite clear for L283, this Posusje/Dinara culture had specific traits and I think it's not such a big problem to trace it further down, even to historical Illyrian times. More precisely to talk about specific tribes instead of vague "Illyrian". They were fond of fortifications and fixed settlements, something that was carried on by many subsequent cultures all the way to Illyrian times. For example neighboring Cetina culture people were nomadic. Also importantly L283 people practiced inhumation, whereas Cetina people practiced both inhumation and cremation.
Cetina is a very good fit for E-V13 as rafc suggested. Although it still cannot be excluded that Trypillia E-M78 was the ancestor of V13. Because I've seen some fairly certain PH1246 in studies from Moldavia, where still very few people are tested.
I would say that R1b colleagues of Dinara and Cetina were quite different, P312's for the first and Z2103's for the second, especially for example KMS67 (there are some Croatian haplotypes who look like KMS67). So in short Vucedol (whose offshoot is Cetina) was likely proto-proto-Greek, as was the opinion of some archaeologists.
About Illyrians, there is this Dinara L283 element which must have been very strong. However also Urnfield in late Bronze Age was important, and it seems actually that some younger V13 clades were almost certainly involved there alongside some isolated R1b-U152's that one can find today, plus residual Vucedol elements.
From my maternal side I should be R-U152>Y4355 and this one is a candidate for Urnfield Illyrian element.
About that guy from Turkey, who might be from Greece, well you might search his STR's if you know them, and if they are more specific, he might have close matches in Turkey or Greece.
Can you let me know where I can see the STRs for this new study of Macedonia, as I haven't had a chance to look around.
From YHRD.
They were uploaded recently, I think Albanian samples even have 23 STR's, Turkish have just 17. So you can get them through trial & error, until you get all STR's, GATAH4 is +1 there ofc.
I can help you with some I was looking for, these are on YFiler ftdna order:
?? ?? ?? ?? 11-14 10 ?? 11 ?? ?? 14 20 ?? ?? 11 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
?? ?? ?? ?? 11-14 11 ?? 11 ?? ?? 14 20 ?? ?? 11 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 3/102
12 ?? ?? ?? 14-17 ?? ?? 11 ?? ?? 16 19 ?? ?? 9 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 4/102
12 ?? ?? ?? 14-16 ?? ?? 11 ?? ?? 16 19 ?? ?? 9 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
13 ?? ?? ?? 14-15 ?? ?? 11 ?? ?? 15 20 ?? ?? 10 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 3/102
13 24 ?? ?? 11-11 ?? ?? 13 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 12 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 14/102
13 24 13 ?? 16-18 ?? 13 11 30 19 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
13 24 13 ?? 16-18 ?? 13 11 30 20 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
13 24 13 ?? 16-18 ?? 13 11 30 21 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 1/102
13 24 13 ?? 16-18 ?? 13 11 30 18 ?? ?? 12 ?? ?? ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 2/102
12 ?? ?? ?? ??-?? ?? ?? 13 ?? ?? 15 ?? ?? ?? 12 ?? Macedonia [Albanian] 2/102
This is the one that fit's in Bjelopavlic cluster, 439=11, 460=10
13 24 13 10 16-18 11 13 11 30 16 14 20 11 15 10 21 Macedonia [Albanian]
481=22, 533=11, 460=10, 449=30, 576=17, 570=21
These are actually YFiler plus so they have more markers but only 23 from ftdna.
