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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #1176
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    you can see the first time the albani tribe named in Epirus nova (see map below )

    yes I have seen the map.
    but in any case there are currently ancient remains from albanian territories being tested. most likely during this year we should get results from south albania and get some clarity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    I doubt it was pf7562. they are indoeuropean is one reason they can not be pelasgian as Homer, which is the first written source for pelasgians clearly state that they spoke very different language. second reason there in no BA/IA pf7562 in greece as of now. all pf7562 that has been tested in greece is from albanian/arvanitas migration. so it cant be an haplogroup that did not exist in greece at the time as far as we know for the moment. look at the yfull distribution of pf7562/3.
    I thought Homer called them barbaric not speakers of ancient Greek? Did he mention what happened to them?
    Could just be early g or i2 peeps then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I thought Homer called them barbaric not speakers of Greek? Did he mention what happened to them?

    Could just be early g or i2 peeps then.
    The way he talks about them sounds like Neolithic population. But as you said its all legends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    you can see the first time the albani tribe named in Epirus nova (see map below )
    What year is this from? Albani tribe doesnt mean anything - its just a small name on the map amongst many others - if you are saying this map means they are below illyrians regionally and unrelated you are wrong as you can see the Taulantii below the "Albani" on the map. Taulantii were one of the most powerful and long lasting illyrian tribes -

    "Taulantii were an Illyrian people that lived on the Adriatic coast of southern Illyria (modern Albania). They dominated at various times much of the plain between the rivers Drin and Aous. Their central area was the hinterland of Epidamnos-Dyrrhachion, corresponding to present-day Tirana and the region between the valleys of Mat and Shkumbin.[2] The Taulantii are among the oldest attested Illyrian peoples, who established a powerful kingdom in southern Illyria.[3] They are among the peoples who most marked Illyrian history, and thus found their place in the numerous works of historians in classical antiquity."

    No one has said albanians are made up of ALL illyrians, that is nonsense. Albanians likely formed from several illyrian tribes that spoke similar languages - mostly south illyrians and maybe some people like dardanians and ancient macedonians. Geg albanians maybe formed from a mix of slightly different tribes (family clans) to tosk albanians but still same language - maybe geg albanians had more dardani influence

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    You are fixated with red hair :)
    Not as fixated as the ancients who met Thracians!

    "Indeed, the ancient Greeks were wary of their Thracian neighbours (the gladiator Spartacus amongst them) and were reluctant to rile them because of their red hair, combative nature and willingness to embroil themselves in a good fight. Depictions on Athenian pottery of glorious battles show the Greeks fighting the mythological Thracian King Rhesus with wild red hair and a pointy beard. The earliest known description of the Thracians’ hair colour comes from the Greek poet Xenophanes in 500 BC who claimed:
    “Men make their Gods in their own image… those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair”.

    Indeed, surviving Thracian tombs in Ostrusha Mound, Bulgaria, have mosaic images of red-haired ancestors and are adorned with the word “Rufus”, the Latin word for red-haired."

    Maybe Romans had a fetish for redheads - thats why they tried to settle in britain and ended up losing track of their empire!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    What year is this from? Albani tribe doesnt mean anything - its just a small name on the map amongst many others - if you are saying this map means they are below illyrians regionally and unrelated you are wrong as you can see the Taulantii below the "Albani" on the map. Taulantii were one of the most powerful and long lasting illyrian tribes -
    "Taulantii were an Illyrian people that lived on the Adriatic coast of southern Illyria (modern Albania). They dominated at various times much of the plain between the rivers Drin and Aous. Their central area was the hinterland of Epidermis-Dyrrhachion, corresponding to present-day Tirana and the region between the valleys of Mat and Shkumbin.[2] The Taulantii are among the oldest attested Illyrian peoples, who established a powerful kingdom in southern Illyria.[3] They are among the peoples who most marked Illyrian history, and thus found their place in the numerous works of historians in classical antiquity."
    No one has said albanians are made up of ALL illyrians, that is nonsense. Albanians likely formed from several illyrian tribes that spoke similar languages - mostly south illyrians and maybe some people like dardanians and ancient macedonians. Geg albanians maybe formed from a mix of slightly different tribes (family clans) to tosk albanians but still same language - maybe geg albanians had more dardani influence

    150AD .....when the first mention of Albani was written ................Romans called it Epirus Nova ....and the Greeks called it Greek Illyria.......Macedonians called it Macedonian Epirot
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Epidermis-Dyrrhachion or modern Durres was created by Corinthian Greeks after kicking out the Liburnians who used it as a place to repair ships........Corinthians first kicked out the Liburnains of Corfu ( who where there for nearly 200 years ) and then the "repair" place ( durres ) for ships ...all circa 700BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Epidermis-Dyrrhachion or modern Durres was created by Corinthian Greeks after kicking out the Liburnians who used it as a place to repair ships........Corinthians first kicked out the Liburnains of Corfu ( who where there for nearly 200 years ) and then the "repair" place ( durres ) for ships ...all circa 700BC
    yes. the town was a colony, but the surrounding areas had population that was clearly not greek. Even for Epir Herodotus and thucidities refer clearly as barbarians/non greeks.
    Thucidities not only names them as such but gives a detailed description of their behavior in war/battle to show how different they were from the greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Epidermis-Dyrrhachion or modern Durres was created by Corinthian Greeks after kicking out the Liburnians who used it as a place to repair ships........Corinthians first kicked out the Liburnains of Corfu ( who where there for nearly 200 years ) and then the "repair" place ( durres ) for ships ...all circa 700BC
    Like I said illyrians kept pushing the already expanded greeks south over time - they were mostly more northern around 700bc labelled as barbarians from the north. You will find greek temples in south albania just like in italy and turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    What year is this from? Albani tribe doesnt mean anything - its just a small name on the map amongst many others - if you are saying this map means they are below illyrians regionally and unrelated you are wrong as you can see the Taulantii below the "Albani" on the map. Taulantii were one of the most powerful and long lasting illyrian tribes -

    "Taulantii were an Illyrian people that lived on the Adriatic coast of southern Illyria (modern Albania). They dominated at various times much of the plain between the rivers Drin and Aous. Their central area was the hinterland of Epidamnos-Dyrrhachion, corresponding to present-day Tirana and the region between the valleys of Mat and Shkumbin.[2] The Taulantii are among the oldest attested Illyrian peoples, who established a powerful kingdom in southern Illyria.[3] They are among the peoples who most marked Illyrian history, and thus found their place in the numerous works of historians in classical antiquity."

    No one has said albanians are made up of ALL illyrians, that is nonsense. Albanians likely formed from several illyrian tribes that spoke similar languages - mostly south illyrians and maybe some people like dardanians and ancient macedonians. Geg albanians maybe formed from a mix of slightly different tribes (family clans) to tosk albanians but still same language - maybe geg albanians had more dardani influence
    problem here is that this map is 150AD...the Romans already knew who was who ethnically ............they knew who where the Illyrians , they already fought a 4 year long war against them and decimated their race ...............the Taulantii could not have been illyrian ...........are they not once of the 4 tribes who are ethnically Dardanian ?

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    These are are Epirote tribes


    German historian

    In 1841 the German historian Karl Friedrich Merleker (1803-1872) compiled a list comprised of 36 subtribes of the three main Epirotan tribes he found in the ancient sources:
    “All in all in the ancient Epirus I found thirty six small tribes and and four greater: I. Among Chaones bëjnë pjesë 1) Dexaroi (Δεξάροι), 2) Encheleii (Ἐγχελεῖς), 3) Syliones (Συλίονες). II. To Molossians belong: 4) Atintanes (Ατιντάνες), 5) Athamanes (Άθαμάνες), 6) Aphidantes (Άφείδαντες), 7) Genoai (Γενοαῖοι), 8) Donettini (Δονεττῖνοι), 9) Orestae (Όρέσται), 10) Hypaelokhoi (Ὑπαιλχιοι). II. To Thesprotes belong: 11) Aegestians (Αἰγεσταῖοἰ), 12) Amyntes (Άμύνται), 13) Autariates (Αὐταριάται), 14) Elines (Ἔλινοι), 15) Kelaethians (Κέλαιϑοι), 16) Parauai (Παραύαιοι), 17) Prassaebi (Πράσσαιβοι), 18) Tripolissi (Τριπόλισσοι), 19) Chaunes (Χαῦνοι), 20) Cassopaeans (Κασσοπὶοι). IV. Epirotes also are: 21) Amymni (Ἄμυμνοι), 22) Argyrini (Άργύρινοι), 23) Arktanes (Άρκτᾶνες), 24) Pleraei (Πλαραῖοι). V. Other tribes inhabiting in the region of ancient Epirus are: 25) Helopes (Ἕλοπες), 26) Selles (Σέλλες), 27) Dryopes (Δρύοπες), 28) Aethices (Αἴϑικες), 29) Tymphaei (Τυμφαῖοι) , 30) Amphilochi (Ἀμφίλοχοι), 31) Talari (Ταλαρες), 32) Paroraei (Παρωραῖοί), 33) Threstes (Θρέσται), 34) Pelagones (Πελαγόνες), 35) Elimiotes (Έλιμιῶται), 36) Dolopes (Δόλοπες).” . Missing in this list is the tribes of Peukestes (Πευκέστας), in the territory of Chaonians .


    ...............................................

    Dexaroi, a tribe in Chaonia, neighbors of Enchelei. The name may be derived from the Epirote word daksa (δάξα) for sea 27. Stephanus of Byzantium wrote of a subtribe of Chaonians, Dexaroi (Δέξαροι), who resided in neighborhood of Encheleii, at the foot of the mountain Amyron (Αμυρον)

  12. #1187
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Epidermis-Dyrrhachion or modern Durres was created by Corinthian Greeks after kicking out the Liburnians who used it as a place to repair ships........Corinthians first kicked out the Liburnains of Corfu ( who where there for nearly 200 years ) and then the "repair" place ( durres ) for ships ...all circa 700BC
    Liburnians, were these the ancient Laberians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Liburnians, were these the ancient Laberians?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians

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    This thread is quite interesting...

  16. #1191
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Not as fixated as the ancients who met Thracians!
    "Indeed, the ancient Greeks were wary of their Thracian neighbours (the gladiator Spartacus amongst them) and were reluctant to rile them because of their red hair, combative nature and willingness to embroil themselves in a good fight. Depictions on Athenian pottery of glorious battles show the Greeks fighting the mythological Thracian King Rhesus with wild red hair and a pointy beard. The earliest known description of the Thracians’ hair colour comes from the Greek poet Xenophanes in 500 BC who claimed:
    “Men make their Gods in their own image… those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair”.
    Indeed, surviving Thracian tombs in Ostrusha Mound, Bulgaria, have mosaic images of red-haired ancestors and are adorned with the word “Rufus”, the Latin word for red-haired."
    Maybe Romans had a fetish for redheads - thats why they tried to settle in britain and ended up losing track of their empire!
    lol, i admit i laughed at this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    problem here is that this map is 150AD...the Romans already knew who was who ethnically ............they knew who where the Illyrians , they already fought a 4 year long war against them and decimated their race ...............the Taulantii could not have been illyrian ...........are they not once of the 4 tribes who are ethnically Dardanian ?
    Of course Taulantii were illyrian - whether they were one of 4 big "dardani" tribes is impossible to tell, we dont even know for sure if dardani were just another group in the branch of illyrians or different people. Either way they were all given different names by different people from different languages. They are still in that map from 150AD that apparently is epirus - point being Albani were even further north of Taulantii yet still in that Epirus region. That map doesnt mean anything when determining the race of the people

    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Glaucias_of_Taulantii

    The fact that Taulantii were still mentioned in the 150AD map shows that illyrians werent wiped out and were often deployed by romans - it was the slavic invasion that changed things more

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Of course Taulantii were illyrian - whether they were one of 4 big "dardani" tribes is impossible to tell, we dont even know for sure if dardani were just another group in the branch of illyrians or different people. Either way they were all given different names by different people from different languages. They are still in that map from 150AD that apparently is epirus - point being Albani were even further north of Taulantii yet still in that Epirus region. That map doesnt mean anything when determining the race of the people
    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Glaucias_of_Taulantii
    The fact that Taulantii were still mentioned in the 150AD map shows that illyrians werent wiped out and were often deployed by romans - it was the slavic invasion that changed things more
    So the Illyrians fought all their way through history just to get invaded by Slavs in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    So the Illyrians fought all their way through history just to get invaded by Slavs in the end.
    Not sure why you are belittling south slavs like that but anyway they were obviously weakened by romans first as were thracians. Also, illyrians were never completely unified - scattered in different regions and stayed in relatively small groups as such suited the terrain. That is why i dont think the "illyria" area was all people of the same race, it was more like land of the free and the strongest roamers survive

    There were a lot of big powers in south europe before romans - urnfield, ancient macedonians, hellenes, dorians etc. South europe was rarely peaceful - all the fighting and lack of unity allowed south slavs to take over a few years later.

    These are languages not related to south slavic in south europe today = greek, albanian, romanian (though there are similarities). Now, we know romanian has strong latin influence and even the name sounds strange - it is clearly of strong roman influence. Maybe thraco-daco-romans were stronger in preserving their identity than south thracians (bulgaria) who already had their language hellenized prior anyway.

    And yes illyrians did get invaded by slavs in the end - except for those from the south and those that moved south but i already mentioned above why it was possible to take over such masses of land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Of course Taulantii were illyrian - whether they were one of 4 big "dardani" tribes is impossible to tell, we dont even know for sure if dardani were just another group in the branch of illyrians or different people. Either way they were all given different names by different people from different languages. They are still in that map from 150AD that apparently is epirus - point being Albani were even further north of Taulantii yet still in that Epirus region. That map doesnt mean anything when determining the race of the people
    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Glaucias_of_Taulantii
    The fact that Taulantii were still mentioned in the 150AD map shows that illyrians werent wiped out and were often deployed by romans - it was the slavic invasion that changed things more

    I never said the illyrians where wiped out ...............after the Great Illyrian revolt which lasted 4 years , 80% of these illyrians who warred against Rome where Dalmatians and Pannonians......150,000 where dispersed to other parts of the roman empire or placed in Roman armies.

    The Slavs and Avars and later Goths coming in to this region all mixed with the Illyrians that remained in these areas ...................the areas where not left barren/empty, makes no sense that you are thinking about empty lands ................current slavs , ( bosnians , croats, slovenes ) all have some Illyrian mix from these times

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Not sure why you are belittling south slavs like that but anyway they were obviously weakened by romans first as were thracians.
    Where am i belittling South Slavs?, since they have Slavic identity not Illyrian.

    Also, illyrians were never completely unified - scattered in different regions and stayed in relatively small groups as such suited the terrain. That is why i dont think the "illyria" area was all people of the same race, it was more like land of the free and the strongest roamers survive
    Ok, most likely this is true to an extend

    There were a lot of big powers in south europe before romans - urnfield, ancient macedonians, hellenes, dorians etc.
    Dorians were part of the Hellenes why you mention them separately

    South europe was rarely peaceful - all the fighting and lack of unity allowed south slavs to take over a few years later.
    These are languages not related to south slavic in south europe today = greek, albanian, romanian (though there are similarities). Now, we know romanian has strong latin influence and even the name sounds strange - it is clearly of strong roman influence. Maybe thraco-daco-romans were stronger in preserving their identity than south thracians (bulgaria) who already had their language hellenized prior anyway.
    And yes illyrians did get invaded by slavs in the end - except for those from the south and those that moved south but i already mentioned above why it was possible to take over such masses of land.
    Ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I never said the illyrians where wiped out ...............after the Great Illyrian revolt which lasted 4 years , 80% of these illyrians who warred against Rome where Dalmatians and Pannonians......150,000 where dispersed to other parts of the roman empire or placed in Roman armies.
    The Slavs and Avars and later Goths coming in to this region all mixed with the Illyrians that remained in these areas ...................the areas where not left barren/empty, makes no sense that you are thinking about empty lands ................current slavs , ( bosnians , croats, slovenes ) all have some Illyrian mix from these times
    We know they have mixed with the northern illyrians and other groups that lived there by process of haplogroup elimination. We see that their y dna is over 50% south slavic and this makes sense because in order to completely change the language of people (during that time) you usually have to outnumber them as no public schools or huge amount of books existed. All we are missing is ancient dna to confirm who belonged to what

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    Well I would say majority of them belongs to Neolithic farmers considering Y-DNA, in the first place E V-13 ofcourse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Michael View Post
    Well I would say majority of them belongs to Neolithic farmers considering Y-DNA, in the first place E V-13 ofcourse.
    We are not quite sure. The R1B/J2B2 seem IE in nature, and based on the evidence the timeline fits.
    V13 is more of an open question since its supposedly much older in Europe. Yet I believe there are other members who can answer this better. Since this clade is too hard for me to analyze.

    Point being J2B2 and R1B are around ~50% of Albanian male lineages. And V13 is an open question, but even if it gets answered as farming communities predating IE, the maximum concentration is 25-45% depending on the region.

    If you ask me, despite the timeline fitting with farming communities in the Balkans, I believe the fact they were so successful across so many different peoples in the Balkans and elsewhere points to either the fact that they were very advanced in martial technology, or that the farming hypothesis should be questioned. Since most farming communities didn't do well after the IE invasions.

    I believe Aspurg is the best person to ask on this, he is very familiar with the clade/and material cultures and might give a better answer.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 26-04-21 at 00:38. Reason: Typo
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    As far as E-V13 is concerned the E-V13 = Balkan Neolithic was destroyed with Bulgarian Neolithic leaks, there was not even a single E-V13 there. And the dispersion fits with Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age dispersal in the Balkans.

    Previously we thought E-V13 around in Central Europe and Western Europe is from Roman soldiers but we are getting deep clade results from these people and they usually have supririsngly older subclades than Balkanites.

    From leaks we know that Early Iron Age precurors of Odrysian Thracians were not only heavy in E-V13, but also solely E-V13 with no other Y-DNA accompanying them.

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