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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #1201
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    As far as E-V13 is concerned the E-V13 = Balkan Neolithic was destroyed with Bulgarian Neolithic leaks, there was not even a single E-V13 there. And the dispersion fits with Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age dispersal in the Balkans.

    Previously we thought E-V13 around in Central Europe and Western Europe is from Roman soldiers but we are getting deep clade results from these people and they usually have supririsngly older subclades than Balkanites.

    From leaks we know that Early Iron Age precurors of Odrysian Thracians were not only heavy in E-V13, but also solely E-V13 with no other Y-DNA accompanying them.
    Wow. Fantastic.

    Always couldn't wrap my head around the data for V13, this makes much more sense.

    One question. I don't know if I am recalling wrongly here. But wasn't V13 found in some burial along with I1 or I2 individuals in Neoloithic Europe? Albeit as far as I recall this was around Central Europe. I read this in some post here or at Anthro, so can't be sure I am not misremembering.

    Where can I find these leaks. This is very interesting.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 26-04-21 at 13:08. Reason: Typo, as usual.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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  2. #1202
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Wow. Fantastic.

    Always couldn't wrap my head around the data for V13, this makes much more sense.

    One question. I don't know if I am recalling wrongly here. But wasn't V13 found in some burial along with I1 or I2 individuals in Neoloithic Europe? Albeit as far as I recall this was around Central Europe. I read this in some post here or at Anthro, so can't be sure I am not misremembering.

    Where can I find these leaks. This is very interesting.
    No, the only E-V13 individual in Neolithic Europe found to date with certainty is from Spain, the Croatian Neolithic, Hungarian Lengyel/Sopt were E-L618, we also have some 2/3 modern Albanians carrying E-L618 and are negative for E-V13, but they are Early Neolithic Cardium Pottery survivors, Cardium Farmers first settlement was in Greece/Albanian border then they moved Westward to Croatia => Italy and eventually Spain.

    We have some E-M78 from France/Switzerland border, we don't know if they are negative to E-L618/E-V13. We need to wait.

    Other than that, not much, the Kapitan Andreevo leaks were leaked on a Bulgarian TV Show by Stamov who is a collaborator of David Reich Lab. I think the youtube link was deleted. But then again Stamov came with other leaks in October, this time from Late Neolithic, and all males were G2a, and some Chalcolithic with R1b. I had a screenshot from Stamov in the show, but i cannot find for the moment.

  3. #1203
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    No, the only E-V13 individual in Neolithic Europe found to date with certainty is from Spain, the Croatian Neolithic, Hungarian Lengyel/Sopt were E-L618, we also have some 2/3 modern Albanians carrying E-L618 and are negative for E-V13, but they are Early Neolithic Cardium Pottery survivors, Cardium Farmers first settlement was in Greece/Albanian border then they moved Westward to Croatia => Italy and eventually Spain.

    We have some E-M78 from France/Switzerland border, we don't know if they are negative to E-L618/E-V13. We need to wait.

    Other than that, not much, the Kapitan Andreevo leaks were leaked on a Bulgarian TV Show by Stamov who is a collaborator of David Reich Lab. I think the youtube link was deleted. But then again Stamov came with other leaks in October, this time from Late Neolithic, and all males were G2a, and some Chalcolithic with R1b. I had a screenshot from Stamov in the show, but i cannot find for the moment.
    Oh, the interview on he Bulgarian TV channel where we can kind of see his spreadsheet? That leak. I see. Thanks. Was hoping there was something more, would love to see other samples. Since there was 200+ IIRC.

    "Neolithic, Hungarian Lengyel/Sopt were E-L618, we also have some 2/3 modern Albanians carrying E-L618 and are negative for E-V13"

    Wouldn't this indicate that V13 originated pretty much in the Balkans? I know coincidental evidence at best. But that's Anthropology most of the time. Also quite interesting since there is a Basal L283 in Hungary, recently added to YFull. It seems both L283 and V13 are deeply connected to the Balkans last 4000? years.


    G2a... Is it M406 by any chance? Or something else? Been trying super hard to find any info about this clade. Yet its so understudied, most studies don't even test for it.

  4. #1204
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    well in rerenjet project
    there are only 3 cases of e-L618 out of huge number database ( at the moment)
    pretty rare ( as expected for such an ancient branch )
    but e-v13 is derived branch in the project is extremely common



    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

  5. #1205
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    well in rerenjet project
    there are only 3 cases of e-L618 out of huge number database ( at the moment)
    pretty rare ( as expected for such an ancient branch )
    but e-v13 is derived branch in the project is extremely common



    Indeed. I feel these branches that are bottlenecking in a certain region are the most fascinating. Cause when you think about it when they are less than .1% of the population and that old, the chances of them having gotten to this point in time/having tested are quite low. And Considering the Hungarian/Croatian Neolithic L618 living along the as you call derived V13 branch, in my mind increases the chance that the branch goes far back in the region, if not even developed there.

    Disclaimer, I am very uninformed on the E1b branch. So am speaking just based on forum posts and what Progon just pointed out.

  6. #1206
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Indeed. I feel these branches that are bottlenecking in a certain region are the most fascinating. Cause when you think about it when they are less than .1% of the population and that old, the chances of them having gotten to this point in time/having tested are quite low. And Considering the Hungarian/Croatian Neolithic L618 living along the as you call derived V13 branch, in my mind increases the chance that the branch goes far back in the region, if not even developed there.
    Disclaimer, I am very uninformed on the E1b branch. So am speaking just based on forum posts and what Progon just pointed out.


    i hope for this paper soon on roman to early mediveal remains from serbia

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...cium-etc/page2

    as you can see from the leak i counted 8 cases of e-L618


  7. #1207
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  8. #1208
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Rrenjet post from anthrogenica
    on albanian mtdnaSome updates on Albanian mtDNA. Since the last update about 50 new results have been added. The total is now 151. We hope to reach 200 within several months. The most common haplogroups are:

    H - 46.4%
    U (xK) - 15.2%
    J - 9.9%
    W - 5.3%
    T1- 4%
    K - 4%

    The most common subclades are:

    H12a - 5.3%
    J1c2e* - 4.6%
    H55b1 - 4%
    W1c3* - 2.6%
    Other subclades are all 2% or below.

    In comparison to Y-DNA lineages, mtDNA ones remain far more diverse, especially on subclade level. Most of the subclades, even the rarer ones, are dispersed throughout different regions. This may be due to the relatively older age of mtDNA subclades, but it would also be interesting to see if higher female mobility due to traditional family norms of marriage and exogamy have played a significant part in this.


    p.s
    salento see https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H12a/ h12 presence in albanians


    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/J1c2e*/

    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H55b1/

    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/W1c3/
    Last edited by kingjohn; 15-05-21 at 17:03.

  9. #1209
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for the info KingJohn.

  10. #1210
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    It would be awesome to test the bones of Cetina people remains.

    https://archeorient.hypotheses.org/8247

    I know there are people that think E-V13 was part of Cetina, but that's just as good assumption as all other assumptions.

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    the nation, Albanian is very homogeneous without doubt the only one most homogeneous in Europe in view of its genetic heritage, after there are many descendants of the Illyrians, but also of the Slavs, of the Hellenes ... There is a book on genetics from a writer in the name of Jovan Milenković, moreover the Albanian and Serbian E-V13 are not identical and that for thousands of years they have just one ancestor in common.

  12. #1212
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Regarding Albanian Y-DNA only peer reviewed scientific papers should be considered as canonical.

    This freelance Albanian projects have lost their meaning anymore with their cherrypicking.

    For instance 2019 Macedonian paper which has very consistent samples has Albanians from Macedonia with Y-DNA E-V13 at ~35% while the Albanian projects have ~15%. That's strikingly ~20% difference and extremelly weird considering that some other paper has the percentage more closely to the ~35% of E-V13.

  13. #1213
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Regarding Albanian Y-DNA only peer reviewed scientific papers should be considered as canonical.

    This freelance Albanian projects have lost their meaning anymore with their cherrypicking.

    For instance 2019 Macedonian paper which has very consistent samples has Albanians from Macedonia with Y-DNA E-V13 at ~35% while the Albanian projects have ~15%. That's strikingly ~20% difference and extremelly weird considering that some other paper has the percentage more closely to the ~35% of E-V13.
    15%? That can't be right...

    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

    My guess it is all due to sample size.
    When you take both the study and the statistics from the projects having less than 100 samples from Macedonia that makes sense. It could be due to not diverse sampling, small sample size etc.
    I do not see why these projects would cherry pick tbh.

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    1084 samples is more reflective
    Than 100-200 samples...
    And it also give a chance to find rare haplogroups and branches in albanian population...


    P.s
    ( so rrenjet albanian dna project is the best for any paper on albanian dna)
    i dont think there is such a project with
    That huge number of samples for macedonians
    So at the moment people should follow the dna paper on them 🤔

  15. #1215
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    1084 samples is more reflective
    Than 100-200 samples...
    And it also give a chance to find rare haplogroups and branches in albanian population...
    P.s
    ( so rrenjet albanian dna project is the best for any paper on albanian dna)
    i dont think there is such a project with
    That huge number of samples for macedonians
    So at the moment people should follow the dna paper on them ������
    You cannot compare samples collected by respectable academics with random people from the streets who recently got interested in population genomics, please don't insult our IQ.

  16. #1216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You cannot compare samples collected by respectable academics with random people from the streets who recently got interested in population genomics, please don't insult our IQ.
    I don’t see big differences between studies and the project. They seem in line to me.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You cannot compare samples collected by respectable academics with random people from the streets who recently got interested in population genomics, please don't insult our IQ.

    don't get your point
    the tested people are still albanian ( like in the so called academic papers)

  18. #1218
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    don't get your point
    the tested people are still albanian ( like in the so called academic papers)
    Dude, i know what i am talking about. Do you really think that this low-life cheap tricks of them can be passed away from our bullshit radar?

    A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...72497319301097




  19. #1219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Dude, i know what i am talking about. Do you really think that this low-life cheap tricks of them can be passed away from our bullshit radar?




    ok ,
    i am not going to argue i realy thought it was a good effort
    by alban
    but if albanian members here themselfs think otherwise i respect your opinions

  20. #1220
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    ok ,
    i am not going to argue i realy thought it was a good effort
    by alban
    but if albanian members here themselfs think otherwise i respect your opinions
    They will fall in the pit they digged for us.

  21. #1221
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    What is going on here?

  22. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    They will fall in the pit they digged for us.
    Vlla, what are you talking about?

    Gjenetika has samples n=50 for Macedonia, while Rrenjet has n=39... How do you expect it to reflect the numbers accurately? Macedonia Albanians are very under represented in both projects. When one sample is worth =2-3%, you shouldn't be surprised that official studies with n=300(1 sample =.33%) paint a better picture.


    Gjenetika^

    Rrenjet^


    Anyways, what is this pit digging talk anyways?!

  23. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What is going on here?
    I think i was clear enough, we will not allow shady people cherry-picking samples all over around to be constituted as reference for Albanian population.

    We will accept only peer reviewed scientific papers.

  24. #1224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I think i was clear enough, we will not allow shady people cherry-picking samples all over around to be constituted as reference for Albanian population.

    We will accept only peer reviewed scientific papers.
    Who are we?


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  25. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I think i was clear enough, we will not allow shady people cherry-picking samples all over around to be constituted as reference for Albanian population.

    We will accept only peer reviewed scientific papers.
    Disagreement is fine, but please do not use profanity.

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