Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

Something interesting I came across. Kees Van Der Pijl claims that Philistines hail from the Illyrian Coast.

Kees Van Der Pijl is a dutch sholar and author of "The Foreign Encounter in Myth and Religion: Modes of Foreign Relations and Political Economy, 2010" from which the quotes below come:

"Shortly after 1200 bc, the collapse of both the Hittite empire in Anatolia and the Mycenaean empire in Greece inaugurated what Stager calls ‘a dark age’ (1998: 90). It led to re-ruralisation and fragmentation as well as the migration and settlement of the Sea Peoples, communities of seafaring trader–warriors who hailed from the Illyrian coast. The Philistines (Peleset) were the best known of the Sea Peoples; another branch of these sea nomads, the Shikalayu or Sikils (‘who live on ships’ and who gave the name to Sicily), appears as the Vikings of antiquity. They are depicted on Egyptian pictures with oared galleys with single sails and finials in the shape of water birds at prow and stern (Stager 1998: 119). Iron, the metal of which the Hittites had long had the secret, now became available to other peoples, ushering in the eponymous new age."


Pg 55


"According to the biblical prophets, the Philistines came from Caphtor (Hebrew for Crete); as noted, they originally hailed from the Illyrian coast. Their arrival in Canaan coincides with the Israelite settlement in the early twelfth century bc. After the breakdown of Egyptian control following Rameses’ death in 1153 bc, they expanded from the Gaza area in the century that followed, forcing the Israelite tribe of Dan to migrate northwards."


Pg 74

if Kees Van Der Pijl is correct in his assessment that around 1200BC the Sea Peoples originated from the Illyrian Coast, then we can easily test this.


A grave dated around 1500BC (only 300 years before Sea People expansion) on the Illyrian Coast from the Ian Mathieson Genomic History of Southeastern Europe paper showed up as J2b2-L283. So if L283 shows up in Philistine results this will have interesting ramifications
 
Something interesting I came across. Kees Van Der Pijl claims that Philistines hail from the Illyrian Coast.

Kees Van Der Pijl is a dutch sholar and author of "The Foreign Encounter in Myth and Religion: Modes of Foreign Relations and Political Economy, 2010" from which the quotes below come:

"Shortly after 1200 bc, the collapse of both the Hittite empire in Anatolia and the Mycenaean empire in Greece inaugurated what Stager calls ‘a dark age’ (1998: 90). It led to re-ruralisation and fragmentation as well as the migration and settlement of the Sea Peoples, communities of seafaring trader–warriors who hailed from the Illyrian coast. The Philistines (Peleset) were the best known of the Sea Peoples; another branch of these sea nomads, the Shikalayu or Sikils (‘who live on ships’ and who gave the name to Sicily), appears as the Vikings of antiquity. They are depicted on Egyptian pictures with oared galleys with single sails and finials in the shape of water birds at prow and stern (Stager 1998: 119). Iron, the metal of which the Hittites had long had the secret, now became available to other peoples, ushering in the eponymous new age."


Pg 55


"According to the biblical prophets, the Philistines came from Caphtor (Hebrew for Crete); as noted, they originally hailed from the Illyrian coast. Their arrival in Canaan coincides with the Israelite settlement in the early twelfth century bc. After the breakdown of Egyptian control following Rameses’ death in 1153 bc, they expanded from the Gaza area in the century that followed, forcing the Israelite tribe of Dan to migrate northwards."


Pg 74

if Kees Van Der Pijl is correct in his assessment that around 1200BC the Sea Peoples originated from the Illyrian Coast, then we can easily test this.


A grave dated around 1500BC (only 300 years before Sea People expansion) on the Illyrian Coast from the Ian Mathieson Genomic History of Southeastern Europe paper showed up as J2b2-L283. So if L283 shows up in Philistine results this will have interesting ramifications

This is interesting....any Dna backup


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In an Albanian village near Korca there was a discovery of a large graveyard, of about 800 graves. The archaeolog interviewed said that graveyard had objects like 4000 bc to 18th century. I saw a tv footage and there were skeletons. He said the skeletons will be boxed and preserved for the interested people. I doubt any human part can survive for such a period of time. He did not say if they found any tooth from that time. he was mostly talked about poetry and said there were a lot of imported objects in the site. If there were human parts from that time would have been nice to know who were the people inhabiting the area.
 
[h=1]Ora News - Zbulohen varre prehistorike gjatë gërmimeve për TAP në Korçë[/h]
 
YSEQ has completed testing of my novels for my Albanian match. out of 26 novels, 21 were tested. My match tested positive for 8 SNPs. Our Albanian founder effect likely occurred between 760-800AD. The next question is how would I go about submitting to ISOGG and requesting this new branch be added to Maciamos Haplogroup tree for M458?
 

No it totally is not as Trojet quoted me it was Dinara or Posusje culture, very different from Cetina. And yes Raf C made a hypothesis about V13 and Cetina. Btw that quote from Cetina on wikipedia, about Cetina being partially indoeuropeanized but not being IE, that was one opinion, others said that Cetina was an IE culture, and that Neolithic element (such as some local Hvar and Nakovana culture V13) primarily biologically contributed to it and much less culturally. But R1b Z2103 clades such as Yamnaya KMS67 must have been present also in Cetina culture.

Actually one can spot in studies of Croatia some PH1246 looking haplotypes, even on island Ugljan there are two, so PH1246 might have relation to Cetina (now having more of its members in south Italy too where Cetina had outposts), but CTS5856 can't due to it's spread it must have been somewhere much more East and Northeast closer to the Steppe and likely part of some nomadic population as now there are two Iranic (Ossetian and Kurdish)
CTS5856* clades. So even if CTS5856 ancestors came from Cetina they must have wandered away significantly. Or alternatively as there are some PH1246 looking haplotypes in Moldova it came from some Cucuteni remnant.

Interestingly Cetina people invaded Peloponnese in about 22nd century BC and destroyed House of the Tiles (likely built by some R-PF7562).
 
Ok, about the haplos we can kinda have a clear painting now, but what about autosomal DNA, shouldn't illyrians score central european thinking that they were recorded to have passed through modern day austria coming to the balkans from somewhere else? I am talking mostly about the R1b L23 component among illyrians, because about E-V13 is kinda normal to score south euro, and what about J2b, it is thaught that it came from pontic steppe, so shouldnt't the carriers of these haplos score, at least originally, east euro?? what are your views about this? Personally i think that if albanians/illyrians today score south euro is mostly thanking to the heavy mix with the E-V13 carriers, who autosomally score south euro, but originally R1b L23 and J2b carriers didn't score south euro at all.
 
No it totally is not as Trojet quoted me it was Dinara or Posusje culture, very different from Cetina. And yes Raf C made a hypothesis about V13 and Cetina. Btw that quote from Cetina on wikipedia, about Cetina being partially indoeuropeanized but not being IE, that was one opinion, others said that Cetina was an IE culture, and that Neolithic element (such as some local Hvar and Nakovana culture V13) primarily biologically contributed to it and much less culturally. But R1b Z2103 clades such as Yamnaya KMS67 must have been present also in Cetina culture.
Actually one can spot in studies of Croatia some PH1246 looking haplotypes, even on island Ugljan there are two, so PH1246 might have relation to Cetina (now having more of its members in south Italy too where Cetina had outposts), but CTS5856 can't due to it's spread it must have been somewhere much more East and Northeast closer to the Steppe and likely part of some nomadic population as now there are two Iranic (Ossetian and Kurdish)
CTS5856* clades. So even if CTS5856 ancestors came from Cetina they must have wandered away significantly. Or alternatively as there are some PH1246 looking haplotypes in Moldova it came from some Cucuteni remnant.
Interestingly Cetina people invaded Peloponnese in about 22nd century BC and destroyed House of the Tiles (likely built by some R-PF7562).
About E-V13 it is clear that they spoke whatever pre greek people of modern day greece spoke, so probably doric, at least this is my opinion.
 
Ok, about the haplos we can kinda have a clear painting now, but what about autosomal DNA, shouldn't illyrians score central european thinking that they were recorded to have passed through modern day austria coming to the balkans from somewhere else? I am talking mostly about the R1b L23 component among illyrians, because about E-V13 is kinda normal to score south euro, and what about J2b, it is thaught that it came from pontic steppe, so shouldnt't the carriers of these haplos score, at least originally, east euro?? what are your views about this? Personally i think that if albanians/illyrians today score south euro is mostly thanking to the heavy mix with the E-V13 carriers, who autosomally score south euro, but originally R1b L23 and J2b carriers didn't score south euro at all.
Ok i better explain myself, i am talking about the time before these 3 haplos came in contact, what were their respective autosomal DNA?
 
Ok, about the haplos we can kinda have a clear painting now, but what about autosomal DNA, shouldn't illyrians score central european thinking that they were recorded to have passed through modern day austria coming to the balkans from somewhere else? I am talking mostly about the R1b L23 component among illyrians, because about E-V13 is kinda normal to score south euro, and what about J2b, it is thaught that it came from pontic steppe, so shouldnt't the carriers of these haplos score, at least originally, east euro?? what are your views about this? Personally i think that if albanians/illyrians today score south euro is mostly thanking to the heavy mix with the E-V13 carriers, who autosomally score south euro, but originally R1b L23 and J2b carriers didn't score south euro at all.

If you read Maciamo he argues that some Ev13 is also indo European. E -v13 is everywhere where R1b and R1a is, which are main Indo European groups. They mixed somewhere in Anatolia or steppe. To answer your concern why Albanians are heavy southern when could also have been Central European. I would say the size of Illyrian population coming down might have been small, enough to change the language but not the gene pool. Keep in mind if you see Hungarian today or Turkey, the size of their populations who changed their languages is less than 25%. Keep in mind the area around Albania have been a refuge from the ice age so there was a decent amount of peole living there and they would not allow others coming, so for this reason Albanians could be basically a pellasgic people, with a hint of Illyrian
 
Ok, about the haplos we can kinda have a clear painting now, but what about autosomal DNA, shouldn't illyrians score central european thinking that they were recorded to have passed through modern day austria coming to the balkans from somewhere else? I am talking mostly about the R1b L23 component among illyrians, because about E-V13 is kinda normal to score south euro, and what about J2b, it is thaught that it came from pontic steppe, so shouldnt't the carriers of these haplos score, at least originally, east euro?? what are your views about this? Personally i think that if albanians/illyrians today score south euro is mostly thanking to the heavy mix with the E-V13 carriers, who autosomally score south euro, but originally R1b L23 and J2b carriers didn't score south euro at all.
illyrians originate in central europe after migration from the black sea steppe......they wore Torc's like the celts did
.

.
 
No it totally is not as Trojet quoted me it was Dinara or Posusje culture, very different from Cetina. And yes Raf C made a hypothesis about V13 and Cetina. Btw that quote from Cetina on wikipedia, about Cetina being partially indoeuropeanized but not being IE, that was one opinion, others said that Cetina was an IE culture, and that Neolithic element (such as some local Hvar and Nakovana culture V13) primarily biologically contributed to it and much less culturally. But R1b Z2103 clades such as Yamnaya KMS67 must have been present also in Cetina culture.

Actually one can spot in studies of Croatia some PH1246 looking haplotypes, even on island Ugljan there are two, so PH1246 might have relation to Cetina (now having more of its members in south Italy too where Cetina had outposts), but CTS5856 can't due to it's spread it must have been somewhere much more East and Northeast closer to the Steppe and likely part of some nomadic population as now there are two Iranic (Ossetian and Kurdish)
CTS5856* clades. So even if CTS5856 ancestors came from Cetina they must have wandered away significantly. Or alternatively as there are some PH1246 looking haplotypes in Moldova it came from some Cucuteni remnant.

Interestingly Cetina people invaded Peloponnese in about 22nd century BC and destroyed House of the Tiles (likely built by some R-PF7562).

Ok but now, E haplo came from africa via anatollia in 20000 BC so it definely could not come with R1b and j2b, but when dis the j2b + R1b contact happen, before or after the formation of the proto-illyrian cultural/ethnical identity?
So we know that illyrians crossed the austrian alps in 1000 BC and that j2b came into the balkans and had a founder effect long before 1000 BC so R1b got to have come alone to the austrian alps alone and then encountered j2b + E-V13 in the dinaric alps, so i think that proto illyrians R1b-L23 were already formed before coming into the balkans and autosomallh if they were still alive today would scored close to mldern day italians/hungarians/czechs so central euros, but then they mixed with J2b+E-V13 carriers and got from them the south euro autosomal DNA.
 
Then about why the albanians have J2b+E-V13+R1b is explainable by their lifestyle: they were sheepherds so they travelled even on long distances for their sheeps to get food, we have a practical example in italy where we have sheepherds travelling from tuscany to abruzzi seasonaly, staying 6 months in each region and then rotating, the distance is almost the same that there is between kosovo and croatia, so albanians could be original of kosovo and still migrate seasonally to northern "Illyria", so they mixed with all the 3 haplos, R1b + J2b + E-V13, but they probably were originally mostly E-V13 due to their origin being probably near kosovo and macedonia wich is a continuation of the massive E-V13 pool of southern balkans.
 
If you read Maciamo he argues that some Ev13 is also indo European. E -v13 is everywhere where R1b and R1a is, which are main Indo European groups. They mixed somewhere in Anatolia or steppe. To answer your concern why Albanians are heavy southern when could also have been Central European. I would say the size of Illyrian population coming down might have been small, enough to change the language but not the gene pool. Keep in mind if you see Hungarian today or Turkey, the size of their populations who changed their languages is less than 25%. Keep in mind the area around Albania have been a refuge from the ice age so there was a decent amount of peole living there and they would not allow others coming, so for this reason Albanians could be basically a pellasgic people, with a hint of Illyrian

Now what you said makes a lot of sense, and maybe i didn't express myself correctly for all this time but about illyrians before descending from central europe being R1b and autosomally central european is sonething that i always saw as evident and backed up, but about E-V13 ALWAYS coming with R haplogroup i see it hard, for example it's not found in central asia or IRAN and further.
 
Now what you said makes a lot of sense, and maybe i didn't express myself correctly for all this time but about illyrians before descending from central europe being R1b and autosomally central european is sonething that i always saw as evident and backed up, but about E-V13 ALWAYS coming with R haplogroup i see it hard, for example it's not found in central asia or IRAN and further.

Maciamo argues about E-v13 more or less, like this: Scandinavia, Finland, Russia and northern European lands were under ice until lately. So the haplogroup G which was one of the first early farmers is inexistent in those areas. But E-v13, which also is from Anatolian farmers, is not missing. If Indo-Europeans were R only, why there is E in Sweden, Finland, Russia and other places where there was not Roman conquest? In Europe, Iran, Kurdistan whenever Indo-European is spoken E-v13 is present. It means it has been a companion of R. Also, since E comes from Africa, it should have had some African traces, no matter how small. But it does not. I am talking about The African L. Places like Greece, Albania, where E is in majority, and E came from Africa, African female haplo L should have been present to some amounts. But is totally missing. It means carriers of E for a long time were marring European women, and also were traveling together with J2b2. I am not a biology major, I am trying to make sense of what I am reading, so I am not sure if I am answering your question. My opinion is Illyrians were not numerous. They were overwhelmed by people who were already in those lands. Illyrians could have been the third known wave of immigration in that area
 
Ok but now, E haplo came from africa via anatollia in 20000 BC so it definely could not come with R1b and j2b, but when dis the j2b + R1b contact happen, before or after the formation of the proto-illyrian cultural/ethnical identity?
So we know that illyrians crossed the austrian alps in 1000 BC and that j2b came into the balkans and had a founder effect long before 1000 BC so R1b got to have come alone to the austrian alps alone and then encountered j2b + E-V13 in the dinaric alps, so i think that proto illyrians R1b-L23 were already formed before coming into the balkans and autosomallh if they were still alive today would scored close to mldern day italians/hungarians/czechs so central euros, but then they mixed with J2b+E-V13 carriers and got from them the south euro autosomal DNA.

E-V13 likely came from the Near East/Anatolia or even North Africa directly to Western Balkans 8000 years ago, but its boom was much later. E-V13 generally is ultra-Thracian/Daco-Moesian and only after that Greek and Illyrian. If you take out E-V13 basically Thracians/Daco-Moesians almost do not exist, because some of other Thracian R-Z2103's or R-Z93's simply do not have diversity or numbers..
E-V13 clades found in Albanians are usually younger, and almost all of them (bar PH1246 and one CTS5856*) have distant point of origin in Eastern Balkans. That includes both Z5017 and Z5018. Having said that, lack of PH1246 in Bulgaria clearly shows E-V13 is not native to that area so such high diversity is a consequence of a migration. Some younger V13 found in Albanians seem to have ties with central Europe, and look to have been part of Urnfield movements.

E-V13 among Albanians seems divided in 1) Illyrian clades, 2) illirianised Triballian clades 3) Early Medieval arrivals from Eastern/Central Balkans. This is not case with Albanian J-L283 which seems generally dominantly Illyrian in origin.

Illyrians were a mix. L283's did not arrive in this EIA movement, they arrived to Balkans a millennium earlier. So antiquity Illyrians were a mix of these 2 major blocks, L283 who arrived earlier and R1b-U152 clades from Central Europe, some younger but widespread E-V13 clades (such as clades under L241 and some under CTS9320 and also Y145455), also likely J1-ZS3128 and you might add BY611 there if its origin is in the West, as presence of some distant BY611 clades in Italy fit nicely with this.

You can't have these generalized views, about movements as if all of these older SNP's had same migration paths.

Greece is certainly not the place where E-V13 originates from. Even E-V13 clades which seem Ancient Greek are younger and have distant point of origin northwards. Except one isolated PH1246 which might represent an earlier Cetina time migration.
 
E-V13 likely came from the Near East/Anatolia or even North Africa directly to Western Balkans 8000 years ago, but its boom was much later. E-V13 generally is ultra-Thracian/Daco-Moesian and only after that Greek and Illyrian. If you take out E-V13 basically Thracians/Daco-Moesians almost do not exist, because some of other Thracian R-Z2103's or R-Z93's simply do not have diversity or numbers..
E-V13 clades found in Albanians are usually younger, and almost all of them (bar PH1246 and one CTS5856*) have distant point of origin in Eastern Balkans. That includes both Z5017 and Z5018. Having said that, lack of PH1246 in Bulgaria clearly shows E-V13 is not native to that area so such high diversity is a consequence of a migration. Some younger V13 found in Albanians seem to have ties with central Europe, and look to have been part of Urnfield movements.

E-V13 among Albanians seems divided in 1) Illyrian clades, 2) illirianised Triballian clades 3) Early Medieval arrivals from Eastern/Central Balkans. This is not case with Albanian J-L283 which seems generally dominantly Illyrian in origin.

Illyrians were a mix. L283's did not arrive in this EIA movement, they arrived to Balkans a millennium earlier. So antiquity Illyrians were a mix of these 2 major blocks, L283 who arrived earlier and R1b-U152 clades from Central Europe, some younger but widespread E-V13 clades (such as clades under L241 and some under CTS9320 and also Y145455), also likely J1-ZS3128 and you might add BY611 there if its origin is in the West, as presence of some distant BY611 clades in Italy fit nicely with this.

You can't have these generalized views, about movements as if all of these older SNP's had same migration paths.

Greece is certainly not the place where E-V13 originates from. Even E-V13 clades which seem Ancient Greek are younger and have distant point of origin northwards. Except one isolated PH1246 which might represent an earlier Cetina time migration.

This is an extremely interesting comment, I would love if you opened a thread dedicated to this, and basically shared more of what you said here.
 
E-V13 likely came from the Near East/Anatolia or even North Africa directly to Western Balkans 8000 years ago, but its boom was much later. E-V13 generally is ultra-Thracian/Daco-Moesian and only after that Greek and Illyrian. If you take out E-V13 basically Thracians/Daco-Moesians almost do not exist, because some of other Thracian R-Z2103's or R-Z93's simply do not have diversity or numbers..
E-V13 clades found in Albanians are usually younger, and almost all of them (bar PH1246 and one CTS5856*) have distant point of origin in Eastern Balkans. That includes both Z5017 and Z5018. Having said that, lack of PH1246 in Bulgaria clearly shows E-V13 is not native to that area so such high diversity is a consequence of a migration. Some younger V13 found in Albanians seem to have ties with central Europe, and look to have been part of Urnfield movements.

E-V13 among Albanians seems divided in 1) Illyrian clades, 2) illirianised Triballian clades 3) Early Medieval arrivals from Eastern/Central Balkans. This is not case with Albanian J-L283 which seems generally dominantly Illyrian in origin.

Illyrians were a mix. L283's did not arrive in this EIA movement, they arrived to Balkans a millennium earlier. So antiquity Illyrians were a mix of these 2 major blocks, L283 who arrived earlier and R1b-U152 clades from Central Europe, some younger but widespread E-V13 clades (such as clades under L241 and some under CTS9320 and also Y145455), also likely J1-ZS3128 and you might add BY611 there if its origin is in the West, as presence of some distant BY611 clades in Italy fit nicely with this.

You can't have these generalized views, about movements as if all of these older SNP's had same migration paths.

Greece is certainly not the place where E-V13 originates from. Even E-V13 clades which seem Ancient Greek are younger and have distant point of origin northwards. Except one isolated PH1246 which might represent an earlier Cetina time migration.


Thank you very much, now i understan a lot of things, thank you for having dedicated your profesaionality and time to me.
My question now is, what did these people score autosomally and did the people that today carries those haplos in the balkan get their south euro autosomal dna from mixing with the locals, probably G2a carriers.
And what about L23?
Again thank you for your time.
 
Maciamo argues about E-v13 more or less, like this: Scandinavia, Finland, Russia and northern European lands were under ice until lately. So the haplogroup G which was one of the first early farmers is inexistent in those areas. But E-v13, which also is from Anatolian farmers, is not missing. If Indo-Europeans were R only, why there is E in Sweden, Finland, Russia and other places where there was not Roman conquest? In Europe, Iran, Kurdistan whenever Indo-European is spoken E-v13 is present. It means it has been a companion of R. Also, since E comes from Africa, it should have had some African traces, no matter how small. But it does not. I am talking about The African L. Places like Greece, Albania, where E is in majority, and E came from Africa, African female haplo L should have been present to some amounts. But is totally missing. It means carriers of E for a long time were marring European women, and also were traveling together with J2b2. I am not a biology major, I am trying to make sense of what I am reading, so I am not sure if I am answering your question. My opinion is Illyrians were not numerous. They were overwhelmed by people who were already in those lands. Illyrians could have been the third known wave of immigration in that area

Thank you for the reply you clarified a lot of stuff to me, thanks.
 

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