Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Gannicus]

@Aspurg


I recognize youa and Trojet as the 2 biggest experts of J2b and E-V13 on this forum, can you please tell me if the albanian, vlach and romanian J2b + E-V13 have a direct relation with each other? I am almost sure of the answer, having read stuff on some DNA familyfinder sites but would like to hear it from such an expert in this matter that you are.
Thanks

 

[Aspurg]

@Aspurg


I recognize youa and Trojet as the 2 biggest experts of J2b and E-V13 on this forum, can you please tell me if the albanian, vlach and romanian J2b + E-V13 have a direct relation with each other? I am almost sure of the answer, having read stuff on some DNA familyfinder sites but would like to hear it from such an expert in this matter that you are.
Thanks

Of J2b, in Dukasi, Albania 48 % of Aromanians had a J-PH2967 looking hyplotype, but it won't be close to any Albanian PH2967. These Aromanians must be some local Illyrian element that was latinised long time ago. Also Thaci-Korbi Z631 match with a Greek and they match Basarabi Romanians.
Of V13 Kelmendi branch Z16988>BY4590 was found in Vlachs (1 on Albanian project and 2 BY4590 looking haplotypes from Andon Poci were present in Bosch et al.). E-FGC11450>Y146086 common in Tosks looks set to be found in NW Bulgaria and in Băile Herculane, Romania.

Bjelice cluster Z19851 which is numerous in Montenegro matches with Aromanians and Bulgarians. It is lacking though in Albanians, strangely a bunch of Arberesh belong to it.
Common among Aromanians is E-Y16729* but it seems absent in Albanians. This clade also has a more Eastern orientation as another distant Y16729* is found in Eastern Bulgaria. Also a number of Aromanians from Stip are a match with E-S7461 from Bulgaria, this clade is rare in Albanians and it is also very diverse in the East.

So even in V13, Aromanians and Albanians differ more than they resemble each other.

 

[Gannicus]

Of J2b, in Dukasi, Albania 48 % of Aromanians had a J-PH2967 looking hyplotype, but it won't be close to any Albanian PH2967. These Aromanians must be some local Illyrian element that was latinised long time ago. Also Thaci-Korbi Z631 match with a Greek and they match Basarabi Romanians.
Of V13 Kelmendi branch Z16988>BY4590 was found in Vlachs (1 on Albanian project and 2 BY4590 looking haplotypes from Andon Poci were present in Bosch et al.). E-FGC11450>Y146086 common in Tosks looks set to be found in NW Bulgaria and in Băile Herculane, Romania.

Bjelice cluster Z19851 which is numerous in Montenegro matches with Aromanians and Bulgarians. It is lacking though in Albanians, strangely a bunch of Arberesh belong to it.
Common among Aromanians is E-Y16729* but it seems absent in Albanians. This clade also has a more Eastern orientation as another distant Y16729* is found in Eastern Bulgaria. Also a number of Aromanians from Stip are a match with E-S7461 from Bulgaria, this clade is rare in Albanians and it is also very diverse in the East.

So even in V13, Aromanians and Albanians differ more than they resemble each other.

ah, very inresting, thank you very much, so in conclusion where do we find the biggest ties that link all 3 albanians, romanians and aromanians, if there are any.
And sorry to bother you with this butx what arebthe updates about E-V13, meaning in the path that it took from its homeland to balkans, i am still at the time where it was thought to come from africa in 20000 B.C.
Is there any update on it cuz i heard from you and tuktun that it has been prooven to come from central europe, intresting fact.

About the autosomal DNA now:
I would say that autosomally speaking probably today's albanians and greeks score south euro because of the heavy mix with G2a people, the haplogroup died but the autosomal contribution was inherted by the new comers.
I bet originally proto-Illyrians score would score close to czech or austrians today.
Thank you for your time.

 

[Ownstyler]

E-V13 likely came from the Near East/Anatolia or even North Africa directly to Western Balkans 8000 years ago, but its boom was much later. E-V13 generally is ultra-Thracian/Daco-Moesian and only after that Greek and Illyrian. If you take out E-V13 basically Thracians/Daco-Moesians almost do not exist, because some of other Thracian R-Z2103's or R-Z93's simply do not have diversity or numbers..
E-V13 clades found in Albanians are usually younger, and almost all of them (bar PH1246 and one CTS5856*) have distant point of origin in Eastern Balkans. That includes both Z5017 and Z5018. Having said that, lack of PH1246 in Bulgaria clearly shows E-V13 is not native to that area so such high diversity is a consequence of a migration. Some younger V13 found in Albanians seem to have ties with central Europe, and look to have been part of Urnfield movements.

Your logic is generally correct, but let's also keep in mind that most of these clades have TMRCA's close to 4000 ybp and their expansion predates Illyrians and Thracians. To distinguish between Illyrians and Thraco-Dacians we should look at TMRCAs of 2500-3000, maximum 3500 ybp, and most often, Albanian and Bulgarian results don't converge for around 2500-3500 years.

 

[Sile]

Maciamo argues about E-v13 more or less, like this: Scandinavia, Finland, Russia and northern European lands were under ice until lately. So the haplogroup G which was one of the first early farmers is inexistent in those areas. But E-v13, which also is from Anatolian farmers, is not missing. If Indo-Europeans were R only, why there is E in Sweden, Finland, Russia and other places where there was not Roman conquest? In Europe, Iran, Kurdistan whenever Indo-European is spoken E-v13 is present. It means it has been a companion of R. Also, since E comes from Africa, it should have had some African traces, no matter how small. But it does not. I am talking about The African L. Places like Greece, Albania, where E is in majority, and E came from Africa, African female haplo L should have been present to some amounts. But is totally missing. It means carriers of E for a long time were marring European women, and also were traveling together with J2b2. I am not a biology major, I am trying to make sense of what I am reading, so I am not sure if I am answering your question. My opinion is Illyrians were not numerous. They were overwhelmed by people who were already in those lands. Illyrians could have been the third known wave of immigration in that area

you need to look at the big picture of haplogroups in the balkans like this....from late bronze-age 1100 BC to 800 AD and this period covers also the slav migration, because the slavs did not replace the thracians and illyrians, but these merged into the migrating slavs.
my guess is the slav migration is only 50% of the populace by 800AD

 

[Sile]

E-V13 likely came from the Near East/Anatolia or even North Africa directly to Western Balkans 8000 years ago, but its boom was much later. E-V13 generally is ultra-Thracian/Daco-Moesian and only after that Greek and Illyrian. If you take out E-V13 basically Thracians/Daco-Moesians almost do not exist, because some of other Thracian R-Z2103's or R-Z93's simply do not have diversity or numbers..
E-V13 clades found in Albanians are usually younger, and almost all of them (bar PH1246 and one CTS5856*) have distant point of origin in Eastern Balkans. That includes both Z5017 and Z5018. Having said that, lack of PH1246 in Bulgaria clearly shows E-V13 is not native to that area so such high diversity is a consequence of a migration. Some younger V13 found in Albanians seem to have ties with central Europe, and look to have been part of Urnfield movements.
E-V13 among Albanians seems divided in 1) Illyrian clades, 2) illirianised Triballian clades 3) Early Medieval arrivals from Eastern/Central Balkans. This is not case with Albanian J-L283 which seems generally dominantly Illyrian in origin.
Illyrians were a mix. L283's did not arrive in this EIA movement, they arrived to Balkans a millennium earlier. So antiquity Illyrians were a mix of these 2 major blocks, L283 who arrived earlier and R1b-U152 clades from Central Europe, some younger but widespread E-V13 clades (such as clades under L241 and some under CTS9320 and also Y145455), also likely J1-ZS3128 and you might add BY611 there if its origin is in the West, as presence of some distant BY611 clades in Italy fit nicely with this.
You can't have these generalized views, about movements as if all of these older SNP's had same migration paths.
Greece is certainly not the place where E-V13 originates from. Even E-V13 clades which seem Ancient Greek are younger and have distant point of origin northwards. Except one isolated PH1246 which might represent an earlier Cetina time migration.

IIRC, this paper
.
Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots
Alexandros Heraclides , Evy Bashiardes , Eva Fernández-Domínguez, Stefania Bertoncini, Marios Chimonas, Vasilis Christofi,
Jonathan King, Bruce Budowle, Panayiotis Manoli, Marios A. Cariolou
PLOS
Published: June 16, 2017
.
states that E-V13 origin is cyprus.............I will need to revist this

.
btw, Triballian tribes are thracians and not illyrian

 

[Sile]

Your logic is generally correct, but let's also keep in mind that most of these clades have TMRCA's close to 4000 ybp and their expansion predates Illyrians and Thracians. To distinguish between Illyrians and Thraco-Dacians we should look at TMRCAs of 2500-3000, maximum 3500 ybp, and most often, Albanian and Bulgarian results don't converge for around 2500-3500 years.

with the Roman census at the time of year zero showing that only 14.6 % of illyrrians lived from montenegro and south of this land. my guess would be that most Greek, epirote or macedonian haplogroup markers need to be looked at.
.
In the decuria ( census ) , it shows that 44.8% of Illyria ( illyricum ) ....where Illyrian Dalmatians and the
illyrian pannonians made up of 29.1 %

 

[Dibran]

This is an extremely interesting comment, I would love if you opened a thread dedicated to this, and basically shared more of what you said here.

E-V13 likely came from the Near East/Anatolia or even North Africa directly to Western Balkans 8000 years ago, but its boom was much later. E-V13 generally is ultra-Thracian/Daco-Moesian and only after that Greek and Illyrian. If you take out E-V13 basically Thracians/Daco-Moesians almost do not exist, because some of other Thracian R-Z2103's or R-Z93's simply do not have diversity or numbers..
E-V13 clades found in Albanians are usually younger, and almost all of them (bar PH1246 and one CTS5856*) have distant point of origin in Eastern Balkans. That includes both Z5017 and Z5018. Having said that, lack of PH1246 in Bulgaria clearly shows E-V13 is not native to that area so such high diversity is a consequence of a migration. Some younger V13 found in Albanians seem to have ties with central Europe, and look to have been part of Urnfield movements.

E-V13 among Albanians seems divided in 1) Illyrian clades, 2) illirianised Triballian clades 3) Early Medieval arrivals from Eastern/Central Balkans. This is not case with Albanian J-L283 which seems generally dominantly Illyrian in origin.

Illyrians were a mix. L283's did not arrive in this EIA movement, they arrived to Balkans a millennium earlier. So antiquity Illyrians were a mix of these 2 major blocks, L283 who arrived earlier and R1b-U152 clades from Central Europe, some younger but widespread E-V13 clades (such as clades under L241 and some under CTS9320 and also Y145455), also likely J1-ZS3128 and you might add BY611 there if its origin is in the West, as presence of some distant BY611 clades in Italy fit nicely with this.

You can't have these generalized views, about movements as if all of these older SNP's had same migration paths.

Greece is certainly not the place where E-V13 originates from. Even E-V13 clades which seem Ancient Greek are younger and have distant point of origin northwards. Except one isolated PH1246 which might represent an earlier Cetina time migration.

I second Derite, that would be an interesting thread all its own.

 

[Gannicus]

I second Derite, that would be an interesting thread all its own.

Agreed, but let's do a petition on an example randomly extracted of a group of ten exemplars of individuals, if at least 6 people vote yes then Aspurg will have to morally create the thread in the respect of the 50+1% otherwise he is free to do as he wishes, but i suggest him opening anyways

 

[Entons]

Dont mix illyricum with illyria not the same cloud

 

[Dema]

I am afraid to even read all the stupidity that it might have been written here thru 40 pages...


Albanians are mostly whats left of Illyrians, Albanian language also testifies to this. Genetics also confirms it.

By my free estimate more then 90 % of Illyrian ethnos vanished in bottleneck or assimilated in other ethnos then Albanian.
Albanians after fall of Roman Empire started to form of whats left of Illyrians, and as we all know by history Illyrians were in that time migrating and redrawing to South where now Albania is.

However about 70 % of Albanian Y lines we can connect with Illyrians (Indo-Europeans) and whats left of them, Illyrian-Thracian-Dacian-Hellenic heritage.

Out of rest of 30 % of other lines, about 13 % are Slavic. Rest in minority are Germanic, Middle Easterner, Pelasgian, Roman, Neolithic/Paleolithic European, and plenty of others..

Out of three major Albanian haplogroups, R1b, E-L618+v13, and J2b-L283. E-L618+v13 have probably longest presence from West to Central and Southeast Europe according to ancient DNA (Neolithic). However main expansion (TMRCA 4800 years), happened with Indo-Europeans (Bronze Age) from East Europe, and probably later also with Thracians and Illyrians thru Roman Empire as there we find epicenter of Balkan E-v13.

Also last wave must be with new age Albanian/Romanian/Bulgarian/Montenegrin and other nations with High E-v13 that assimilated into Brits, Americans, Italians, and others.

I would also like to give a hint to beginners, that we are only generally talking here, as every of these main haplogroups later branches out in many smaller clades that are distant in thousands of years one from another. So for more advance approach it would be good to analyse clade by clade. However this is just general analysis and it is also correct to analyse in this way if you know what you are doing and if you have backup evidence like in ancient DNA for example.

Albanians are very Indo-European population, and its clear that genetically they are closer to Greeks and Italians then to Middle Easterners, Slavs, West Europeans or anyone else for that matter. Albanians are just as MyOrigin FTDNA calculator displays, where we have confirmation from FTDNA technician that it goes 2000 years back in traces. By my free estimation in MyOrigin Albanians are over 95 % Southeast European in cluster with Greek and Italians. Further Northeast are Bulgarians and Serbs - they are in middle of way to Albanians/Greeks and North/East Slavs because they are mix of real Slavs and Balkan native population.


Example:

 

[Piro Ilir]

with the Roman census at the time of year zero showing that only 14.6 % of illyrrians lived from montenegro and south of this land. my guess would be that most Greek, epirote or macedonian haplogroup markers need to be looked at.
.
In the decuria ( census ) , it shows that 44.8% of Illyria ( illyricum ) ....where Illyrian Dalmatians and the
illyrian pannonians made up of 29.1 %

View attachment 10955
Well, there are two reasons why the influence into Albanian language is a lot more Latin rather than Hellenic.1- Most of Illyrian linguistic area was further north of Jirecek line. 2- The Illyrians were mostly barbarian, hence they became part of Roman legions rather than being educated in Greek philosophy. The language of the Roman army was exclusively the Latin, while the Greek was the language of the more sophisticated upper social class.

 

[Gannicus]

Aldo haploproup wise we have every piece of material available telling us albanians are descendants of the illyrians, can we say that autosomally speaking the "illyrian continuity" has been broken down to a very big extent?
Let me explain the reasons for wich we can think about a heavy non illyrian autosomal DNA, but rather a more general paleo balkinc/epirote/greek/thracian:
First of all albanian society was based for a long time around a tribal sistem where the man would fight, work and do all the possible to grant himself the best he could get from the opportunities he would encounter, this could even be seen in the search for a bribe: albanians have a long story of finding their women among their surrounding areas, mostly in slavic populated territories;
who cares if she wasn't albanian, a good wife was a good wife and a strong warrior needed a strong woman to back him up when needed and to raise his new generation of warriors.
But this could even be possible during the albanian migration southwards, when the slavic arrival pushed them southwards: albanians would encounter local paleobalkanic people, mostly greeks/thracians, and they have probably inbreeded with the locals, in the same way as mentioned upwards, slowly assimilating the local traits.
This could explain the variety of albanian faces/feautures you can find, based on what region they come from and it would justify the so pushed by pan-slavic nationalists "height matter", based around the fact that illyrians were very tall people (around 1.95/2.00m tall) and albanians have an average of 1.70-1.80, depends on the region, and this occurs the southern you go, with kosovo having the highest albanian average (1.80m if i remember correctly), and tosk albanians + chams being around 1.70m tall.
People would explain jugos being tall and albanians short as (slavs vs locals), cuz you can even see it in greeks, they are tall more or less like albanians, and they are locals, but it is not true: jugoslavs are tall beacuse they have inherted the local illyrian trait of height by assimilating them, while their Y-DNA is the result of a mix of slavs and locals, but mostly slavic.
What do you think? Do my words make any sense?
[EDIT] The conclusion i wanted to make here is that, modern albanians are rather a mix of balkaners autosomally, this is why they cannot be taken as the living proof of illyrians in the sense of: If the illyrians were alive what would they look like?
Probably not like albanians, but neither like jugoslavs (except from the height).
They would dedinely have a high chance of looking like some dark kind of croats, and very tall ones: for instance check the ustaša nationalist song "Bojna čavoglave" and look at the singer, he reminds me a lot of one of the possible albanians faces, but he would probably be a good candidate to represent the illyrian typo man.
Still albanians are the cultural successors of the illyrians, so it's like saying I am a viking, i go to england and establish there, marry a woman, have kids, they marry and have kids and the future generations claiming to be vikings: aldo haplogroupwise, and maybe culturally speaking if they kept speaking old norse instead of english, they tecnically would be vikings, autosomally they are english.

 

[LABERIA]

But this could even be possible during the albanian migration southwards, when the slavic arrival pushed them southwards

There was no such migration of the Albanians southwards.

 

[Gannicus]

Are you sure about this? I meanx the regional differences are so many that suggesting they all come, let's say FROM ONE STOCK, is kinda hard to explain

 

[Gannicus]

Are you sure about this? I mean the regional differences are so many that suggesting they all come, let's say FROM ONE STOCK, is kinda hard to explain

 

[Gannicus]

Or better put it this way, if not linguistically (dialects), tradionwise (habits/costumes) you cannot explain such a diversity in autosomal DNA + evident face features differences via a sedentary explanation.
Probably modern south albanians (tosk) are the closest to what once were the epirotes, while north albanians are illyrian + encountered other people + slavic + maybe something else idk.
Just asking

 

[Gannicus]

btw after searching the song "Bojna Čavoglave" (watch the singers face), if you want to ofc, i advice you to search an albanian who plays in the NFL: Kristjan Sokoli, and tell me what you think about their faces, would they pass as albanians/the description of how illyrians were supposed to look? thank you.

 

[LABERIA]

Are you sure about this? I meanx the regional differences are so many that suggesting they all come, let's say FROM ONE STOCK, is kinda hard to explain

I am sure because there was no such migration. If you know something that we don`t know, please share with us.

 

[Gannicus]

well to be fair i just heard aboit this thing during the years i started interesting myself about albanian matters + i saw it on wikipedia i am pretty sure, waot a sec...