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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #1251
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Ok, you have personal issues. You said forum-alb/foleja as if they were related forums not specifically forum-al.com which discussion was extremely short and was a reaction to his provocations, and you sneakily tried to portray me as participating in some other feuds which i didn't and don't give a damn lol.
    As for that guy, he is Bulgarian descended for sure, Gorani/Golobrdasi are known for being so in the general population.
    Who are you to sponsor kits you are interested in and putting it into the general population statistics?
    He's Albanian. He identifies as Albanian, and will form a young cluster among Albanians, regardless of his most distant ancestry. He is autosomally clustering with Albanians as well.

    You like every other a product of post-communist revisionism peddling the same bs.

    They are Albanians, and the majority identify as such. It's not for you to decide what they are. Otherwise you Albanians from Macedonia are equally just Torbesh/Shka. So lay off the propaganda.

    Who am I to do that?

    Who are you to tell me what I can and cannot do with my money?

    What authority do you have? Absolutely NONE.

    I do with my money as I please.

    Instead of whining about underrepresented/undersampled regions, I went ahead and gathered substantial money I WORKED FOR, and contributed it to the villages and regions I wanted tested.

    Not only for the purpose of unraveling my fis, but for the purpose of representing Dibra and Western Macedonia as a whole, who have had practically no contribution outside of the Mountainous tribal regions or individual testers.

    So, why don't you mind your business and don't tell me what I can and can't do with my money.

    What I have sponsored has been included in population statistics because they are part of the population. Excluding data you don't like is just as bad if not worse than your claim of manipulating data and cherry picking to "deflate E-V13". Which you still have failed to provide any evidence for.

  2. #1252
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Most pointless discussion I have seen...
    Why would anyone give a shet about lowering E-V13... And if they are trying they are doing a horrible job. What is this ape conversation?!
    Gjenetika:

    Rrenjet:


    I guess two projects that combined have 1300-1500 samples, and flame each other on most forums I have seen, are colluding to lower E-V13 numbers (how would they even be able to?). Meanwhile E-V13 is the most dominant Haplogroup. What a horrible job these "manipulators" must be doing (sarcasm)...

    Or is Hawk butthurt for who knows what? Does he want pure E-V13 Albanians and is mad that the % is not 100?

    Pitiful.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  3. #1253
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Most pointless discussion I have seen...
    Why would anyone give a shet about lowering E-V13... And if they are trying they are doing a horrible job. What is this ape conversation?!
    Gjenetika:

    Rrenjet:


    I guess two projects that combined have 1300-1500 samples, and flame each other on most forums I have seen, are colluding to lower E-V13 numbers (how would they even be able to?). Meanwhile E-V13 is the most dominant Haplogroup. What a horrible job these "manipulators" must be doing (sarcasm)...

    Or is Hawk butthurt for who knows what? Does he want pure E-V13 Albanians and is mad that the % is not 100?

    Pitiful.
    Ah you sneaky little idiot, you like to de-focus the main point. I brought valid point and you were immediately triggered and going to completely other direction lol.

  4. #1254
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Ah you sneaky little idiot, you like to de-focus the main point. I brought valid point and you were immediately triggered and going to completely other direction lol.


    Nice comeback! Nice points also. I am amazed .

    Brother, take your pills...

    Edit: Since I don't want to reply to him. This guy legit has no self awareness. Calls me sneaky little idiot, ad hominem, doesn't address any of my points, then when I suggest he takes his pills he gives such reply as seen below.

    | 0 arguments, paranoiac tendencies, no clue what sample size means or how statistic works.
    | Bruh... at least have the self awareness to realize how your reply applies to your own post beforehand, you're projecting hard.
    v

  5. #1255
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post


    Nice comeback! Nice points also. I am amazed .

    Brother, take your pills...
    Oh yeah, out of arguments, let's refocus into ad-hominems, it will work better.

  6. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Literally none of the samples I have sponsored for the project have been relatives or duplicates. Would be an obvious waste of money.
    I target a whole spread with tests I have sponsored, and only test one representative of a family and even avoid duplicates of surnames to avoid over inflating one result over another.
    As far as I know this is pretty much followed throughout.
    Again though, sponsors in private projects are going out of their own pockets and have a right to direct testing where they see fit.
    Hawk just obviously made himself clear that it has nothing to do with actual data and everything to do with: 1. Why his haplogroup percentage is lower in the project than in studies, and ,
    2. He doesn't accept any project that doesn't have a high level administrator who is E-V13.
    Using this childish chain of thought, maybe Albanian projects need an admin for I2a-Din and R1a-M417?
    Why not every other haplogroup while we're at it?
    Unfortunately such a way to get some results that is, their presentation is entering into anarchy. No one doubts to your or someone else good faith but every portal, private person, association, etc can have their own results and for this situation in Croatia we would say "we do not know here who drinks who pays".

    That's my opinion.

    The solution is to somehow encourage responsible officials in our countries to start doing large-scale genetic research on as many persons and as many markers as possible and with the rules of the profession. I think that we in Croatia do not have a couple of archaeogenetic data and all this shows that nothing is being done here but solution in my opinion should not be private research because there is always doubt.

  7. #1257
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Unfortunately such a way to get some results that is, their presentation is entering into anarchy. No one doubts to your or someone else good faith but every portal, private person, association, etc can have their own results and for this situation in Croatia we would say "we do not know here who drinks who pays".
    That's my opinion.
    The solution is to somehow encourage responsible officials in our countries to start doing large-scale genetic research on as many persons and as many markers as possible and with the rules of the profession. I think that we in Croatia do not have a couple of archaeogenetic data and all this shows that nothing is being done here but solution in my opinion should not be private research because there is always doubt.
    You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree though. What you're proposing is on par with government level interference. Especially with DNA related research, thst is some hefty grounds for extreme corruption.

    Such a large scale operation requires government funding. If you think governments are not prone to manipulation and even worse forms of corruption I don't know what to say.

    What's needed is wealthy sponsors who can cover huge amounts of tests with no expectation of where they should be directed.

    However, thinking that there's some grand agenda to over represent some regions above others is foolish.

    Theres a long list of factors that go into this effort that people ignore. Some political, some personal.

    It took a year or so to test only 8 samples for one specific region I had my eye on due to hesitancy and lack of trust among the people and even for political reasons. Whereas some villages or cities, gathering tests is less cumbersome. Some people don't trust DNA tests for whatever reason.

    No one, especially the admins are getting a paycheck for all their efforts. Having to source collectors, and then having these collectors go out of their way on their free time to try and find people to agree to test is not easy. Especially in remote regions or places that have been abandoned.

    Fund application is limited to those who can donate. Having one region over tested is better than having no funds to test anyone at all. They don't get to pick and choose what to do with a donors money unless said donor has no preference.

    Often times they will even gather kits without a sponsor that sit around until someone pays for them. I have tried to help here too.

    Ultimately, people who sponsor large amounts of kits are going to direct those contributions where they see fit. Unless they're super wealthy and can spread them out without preference.

    Many people who have tested themselves can donate random kits to undersampled areas without a particular preference if they choose. They don't though.

    So, people who have never participated in the project or arent going into their own wallet to do so, are in no position to say what should or shouldn't be done with this money.

    If they are so concerned, they can gather funds for a couple samples a month instead of wasting it on bs like take out, and other senseless pleasures.

    If they can't do this, they should at least refrain from complaining and trying to tell others what to do with their hard earned money.

    Results are public any way. One can review project results and work out the math and see which areas need more samples and then donate towards that end if they really care.

    Instead people will just complain and expect others to satisfy their desires for them. If the average project participate donated 1-2 kits a month towards this goal, that would be great.

    If they can't or refuse to even when able, they don't get to tell others where their money should go.

  8. #1258
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Unfortunately such a way to get some results that is, their presentation is entering into anarchy. No one doubts to your or someone else good faith but every portal, private person, association, etc can have their own results and for this situation in Croatia we would say "we do not know here who drinks who pays".

    That's my opinion.

    The solution is to somehow encourage responsible officials in our countries to start doing large-scale genetic research on as many persons and as many markers as possible and with the rules of the profession. I think that we in Croatia do not have a couple of archaeogenetic data and all this shows that nothing is being done here but solution in my opinion should not be private research because there is always doubt.
    Our university branches can do that, of course in co-operation with Universities from Western Europe and USA.

  9. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree though. What you're proposing is on par with government level interference. Especially with DNA related research, thst is some hefty grounds for extreme corruption.
    Such a large scale operation requires government funding. If you think governments are not prone to manipulation and even worse forms of corruption I don't know what to say.
    What's needed is wealthy sponsors who can cover huge amounts of tests with no expectation of where they should be directed. However, thinking that there's some grand agenda to over represent some regions above others is foolish.
    Theres a long list of factors that go into this effort that people ignore. Some political, some personal.
    It took a year or so to test one specific region I had my eye on due to hesitancy and lack of trust among the people and even for political reasons. Whereas some villages or cities, gathering tests is less cumbersome. Some people don't trust DNA tests for whatever reason.
    No one, especially the admins are getting a paycheck for all their efforts. Having to source collectors, and then having these collectors go out of their way on their free time to try and find people to agree to test is not easy.
    Funds are limited to those who can donate. Having one region over tested is better than having no funds to test anyone at all. They don't get to pick and choose. Often times they will even gather kits without a sponsor that sit around until someone pays for them. I have tried to help here too.
    Ultimately, people who sponsor large amounts of kits are going to direct those contributions where they see fit. Unless they're super wealthy.
    Many people who have tested themselves can donate random kits to undersampled areas without a particular preference if they choose. They don't though.
    So, people who have never participated in the project or in going into their own wallet to do so, are in no position to say what should or shouldn't be done with this money.
    If they are so concerned, they can gather funds for a couple samples a month instead of wasting it on bs like take out, and other senseless pleasures. If they can't do this, they should at least refrain from trying to tell others what to do with their money.
    Results are public any way. One can review project results and work out the math and see which areas need more samples and then donate towards that end. Instead people will just complain and expect others to satisfy their desires.
    I use raw data from Serbian portal Poreklo or Albanian portals etc. They are needed because they are more detailed. I also use public Y DNA bases and YFull. But I'm talking about statistics for some area or country. For that I think we should have peer-reviewed sources, although we may encounter problems in them as well.

  10. #1260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Our university branches can do that, of course in co-operation with Universities from Western Europe and USA.
    Probably yes.

  11. #1261
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Probably yes.
    This is the main point that i am trying to raise, but it keeps derailed intentionally.

  12. #1262
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I use raw data from Serbian portal Poreklo or Albanian portals etc. They are needed because they are more detailed. I also use public Y DNA bases and YFull. But I'm talking about statistics for some area or country. For that I think we should have peer-reviewed sources, although we may encounter problems in them as well.
    The problem with peer reviewed sources is that(aside from the Macedonia study which was decent), most studies are interested in haplotype diversity, some for medical reasons, some to build a database for courts or other institutions, etc.

    Very rarely do they attempt to understand ancestry of a people.

    Another big problem is these sample sizes are literally meaningless when compared to a countries entire population size. 50-100 people.
    More often than not, you never know where they specifically come from. There's almost always a broad generalization with no breakdown. The most detailed they have gotten was to say Gheg or Tosk which tells you nothing on a geographical distribution of a particular lineage.

    I'm sorry, that will never compare to 1100-1500 samples that are higher resolution than average and actually publicly provide the villages people are from with detailed distribution/break down.

    The problems with these personal efforts have been laid out. And they can be rectified if lazy project members actually pulled their weight to contribute, or find wealthy sponsors they may network with, instead of telling others what to do with their money. Or even expecting admins to tell others what to do with their money. By that token, there wouldn't be as many tested samples as we now have.

    The project has also encouraged those able to do WGS to get tested. Because a basic Y-DNA test means little without specificity.

    I can't speak for others, but for myself. My donations while targeting specific geographic regions has still spread out among the villages. No one bothered testing Golloborde before I did. Coupled with another members contribution we got quite a bit of a sample size for a small region. I have also sponsored kits in Kruje/Durres and Prizren which were all undersampled. Now I'm targeting West Macedonia in the next batch I can supply. I even avoid duplicates and relatives.

    And there's really no excuse why others can't contribute. I fall into lower middle class bracket financially. If I can sponsor large batches of test slowly over time, there's no reason for those complaining to not be able to do the same if they really cared at all.

  13. #1263
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    He's Albanian. He identifies as Albanian, and will form a young cluster among Albanians, regardless of his most distant ancestry. He is autosomally clustering with Albanians as well.
    You like every other a product of post-communist revisionism peddling the same bs.
    They are Albanians, and the majority identify as such. It's not for you to decide what they are. Otherwise you Albanians from Macedonia are equally just Torbesh/Shka. So lay off the propaganda.
    Who am I to do that?
    Who are you to tell me what I can and cannot do with my money?
    What authority do you have? Absolutely NONE.
    I do with my money as I please.
    Instead of whining about underrepresented/undersampled regions, I went ahead and gathered substantial money I WORKED FOR, and contributed it to the villages and regions I wanted tested.
    Not only for the purpose of unraveling my fis, but for the purpose of representing Dibra and Western Macedonia as a whole, who have had practically no contribution outside of the Mountainous tribal regions or individual testers.
    So, why don't you mind your business and don't tell me what I can and can't do with my money.
    What I have sponsored has been included in population statistics because they are part of the population. Excluding data you don't like is just as bad if not worse than your claim of manipulating data and cherry picking to "deflate E-V13". Which you still have failed to provide any evidence for.
    Could you elaborate what you mean by that?
    As an Albanian from Macedonia I find that weird...
    But wanna hear what makes you type that before I respond with any studies and statistics.

  14. #1264
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Could you elaborate what you mean by that?
    As an Albanian from Macedonia I find that weird...
    But wanna hear what makes you type that before I respond with any studies and statistics.
    Hawk is claiming Albanians of Golloborde are all Gorani/Bulgarian simply because of minority groups living there and due to post communist error propaganda that lingered on from Hoxha regime which has been reinforced by Macedonian and Bulgarian propaganda machine.

    My answer to your question is that there is equal amount of propaganda trying to claim Albanians in Macedonia were originally Macedonian/Bulgarian. If we are to alienate one subset of the Albanian population using propaganda, one can't neglect the others suffering the same falsehood.

    Obviously Albanians in Macedonia are Albanian. But thats slowly changing for instance in Diber Madhe and some other areas where Torbesh and Slavs are being relocated to former Albanian villages that are now underpopulated or abandoned and claiming the Albanians still there are "assimilated Slavs". Which is a lie.

    But this same lie is peddled against Albanians in Golloborde. Which for the most part don't call it that. At least those of us from the west where they only speak Albanian. Only in Eastern parts they speak both languages. Dual linguistic villages are also common in Macedonian Albanians. And in Albanians of Montenegro.

    So if people like Hawk want to spread bs, he's in the same boat because the propaganda against Albanians of Macedonia is growing even more.

    No sensible Albanian would believe it though. Just fighting fire with fire lol.

  15. #1265
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Hawk is claiming Albanians of Golloborde are all Gorani/Bulgarian simply because of minority groups living there and due to post communist error propaganda that lingered on from Hoxha regime which has been reinforced by Macedonian and Bulgarian propaganda machine.
    My answer to your question is that there is equal amount of propaganda trying to claim Albanians in Macedonia were originally Macedonian/Bulgarian. If we are to alienate one subset of the Albanian population using propaganda, one can't neglect the others suffering the same falsehood.
    Obviously Albanians in Macedonia are Albanian. But thats slowly changing for instance in Diber Madhe and some other areas where Torbesh and Slavs are being relocated to former Albanian villages that are now underpopulated or abandoned and claiming the Albanians still there are "assimilated Slavs". Which is a lie.
    But this same lie is peddled against Albanians in Golloborde. Which for the most part don't call it that. At least those of us from the west where they only speak Albanian. Only in Eastern parts they speak both languages. Dual linguistic villages are also common in Macedonian Albanians. And in Albanians of Montenegro.
    So if people like Hawk want to spread bs, he's in the same boat because the propaganda against Albanians of Macedonia is growing even more.
    No sensible Albanian would believe it though. Just fighting fire with fire lol.
    You seem to have a lot of issues and you are eager to lie/project immediately, it explains why you were eager to sponsor kits so you become a factor within that project.

  16. #1266
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You seem to have a lot of issues and you are eager to lie/project immediately, it explains why you were eager to sponsor kits so you become a factor within that project.
    I'm not the one with issues and zpreading lies. You are.

    So please do us all a favor and create your own project so you can be the chief E-V13 admin. Then I'm sure it will be free of all lies and manipulation(sarcasm).

    I'm eager to sponsor kits because I put my money where my mouth is. Unlike you who barks alot of accusations and commands what others should use their money for,, but doesn't do squat about it beside whining.

    And Gorani are from Kukes and Prizren btw, not Golloborde. That would be Bulgaro-Macedonians and Torbesh. They still only make a minority and mostly concentrated in the East of the region of Golloborde any way.

  17. #1267
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I'm not the one spreading lies. You are. So please do us all a favor and create your own project so you can be the chief E-V13 admin. Then I'm sure it will be free of all lies and manipulation(sarcasm).
    I'm eager to sponsor kits because I put my money where my mouth is. Unlike you who barks alot of accusations and commands and doesn't do squat about it.
    And Gorani are from Kukes and Prizren btw, not Golloborde. Learn the difference. That would be Bulgaro-Macedonians and Torbesh.
    They still only make a minority and mostly concentrated in the East of the region of Golloborde any way.
    You are potentially risky, because you hold grudges.

  18. #1268
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You are potentially risky, because you hold grudges.
    You have already been reported for your childish antics. I have no grudges. You really don't want to see what a Dibran with grudges looks like. Good day.

  19. #1269
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Hawk is claiming Albanians of Golloborde are all Gorani/Bulgarian simply because of minority groups living there and due to post communist error propaganda that lingered on from Hoxha regime which has been reinforced by Macedonian and Bulgarian propaganda machine.
    My answer to your question is that there is equal amount of propaganda trying to claim Albanians in Macedonia were originally Macedonian/Bulgarian. If we are to alienate one subset of the Albanian population using propaganda, one can't neglect the others suffering the same falsehood.
    Obviously Albanians in Macedonia are Albanian. But thats slowly changing for instance in Diber Madhe and some other areas where Torbesh and Slavs are being relocated to former Albanian villages that are now underpopulated or abandoned and claiming the Albanians still there are "assimilated Slavs". Which is a lie.
    But this same lie is peddled against Albanians in Golloborde. Which for the most part don't call it that. At least those of us from the west where they only speak Albanian. Only in Eastern parts they speak both languages. Dual linguistic villages are also common in Macedonian Albanians. And in Albanians of Montenegro.
    So if people like Hawk want to spread bs, he's in the same boat because the propaganda against Albanians of Macedonia is growing even more.
    No sensible Albanian would believe it though. Just fighting fire with fire lol.
    I see. Seems I was correct not to jump the gun, and rather try to get the point first.

    Thing is, people need to understand, haplogroups have nothing to do with being nationality(nothing* is a hyperbole but you get my point).

    If say, some branches of R1a and I2a1 etc were incorporated into the Albanians speaking communities after the IX century, and fought along Skenderbeg and other Albanian nobles in 1440's (500 years later), and were active during countless uprisings against imperial powers in the region, and part of Rilindja. Who is to say they are not Albanian? Who gives these people the right to say such things?

    First you had Illyrians, Epirotes and Ancient Macedonias who likely contributed ancestral stock to the communities in modern Albanians, then you had the principality of Arber, then much later you had the modern Albanian nation. For the record national consciousness all over the world in the modern sense is a product of the XVIII-XIX centuries. By that time countless haplogroups had already been Albanian/proto-Albanian.

    That's why in my mind whether you are E-V13, R1b, L283, or R1a, I2a1 or any other haplogroup, does not discount you from being Albanian, nor guarantee you are Albanian. Haplogroups have to do with blood, Albanian nationality has to do with self identification, language, pride and contributing to the national cause.

  20. #1270
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    You have already been reported for your childish antics. I have no grudges. You really don't want to see what a Dibran with grudges looks like. Good day.
    You wanted to completely change the trajectory of the discussion and my objections. No matter how hard you try, they will remain solid.

  21. #1271
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I see. Seems I was correct not to jump the gun, and rather try to get the point first.

    Thing is, people need to understand, haplogroups have nothing to do with being nationality(nothing* is a hyperbole but you get my point).

    If say, some branches of R1a and I2a1 etc were incorporated into the Albanians speaking communities after the IX century, and fought along Skenderbeg and other Albanian nobles in 1440's (500 years later), and were active during countless uprisings against imperial powers in the region, and part of Rilindja. Who is to say they are not Albanian? Who gives these people the right to say such things?

    First you had Illyrians, Epirotes and Ancient Macedonias who likely contributed ancestral stock to the communities in modern Albanians, then you had the principality of Arber, then much later you had the modern Albanian nation. For the record national consciousness all over the world in the modern sense is a product of the XVIII-XIX centuries. By that time countless haplogroups had already been Albanian/proto-Albanian.

    That's why in my mind whether you are E-V13, R1b, L283, or R1a, I2a1 or any other haplogroup, does not discount you from being Albanian, nor guarantee you are Albanian. Haplogroups have to do with blood, Albanian nationality has to do with self identification, language, pride and contributing to the national cause.
    I 100% agree with you. Which is why I made that response to him. He called another Albanian a Gorani for being from a region that has both Albanian and Slavic villages, and also because 1000+ years ago he has matches with Croatians and Serbs in his Y-DNA. However he forms a young 300-500 year sub cluster with other Albanians in both Albania and Macedonia. His point is moot.

    You also have very Slavic looking young branches that fall in E-V13 as well. Recently a E-V13>L241 was found in early migration Slavs. People ignore that it's been 1500 years since half of these lines moved around. Paleo-Balkan lines were not free of this reverse assimilation in moving Slavs either. So his paleobalkan line doesn't reserve an Albanian identity for him.

    This is the problem with these types. And admittedly, one of the old project admins did the same thing which is why I left.

    My branch for instance is an Albanian founder effect in one of these early medieval arrivals. I can actually trace 10+ generations in my line and some elders of my fis actually wrote things down long ago unlike other Albanians. So we know for a fact we were Albanian for 400 years. Before that it's the obvious assumption. And the tmrca is about 1100-1200 with all Albanians outside of Diber as well.

    So this clown can say whatever he likes about R1a Albanians or any non-big 3 Albanian lines. We also match other fis in our line between Albania and Macedonia.

    As you say it has to do with blood and other factors. I agree with you there as well. Haplogroups are less than 1%of the total genome so the whole profile has to be examined from an autosomal stand point.

  22. #1272
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
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    934

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133361
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You wanted to completely change the trajectory of the discussion and my objections. No matter how hard you try, they will remain solid.
    I asked you 3 times for evidence about E-V13 manipulation of data and you never provided it. You also called ArchetypeOne an idiot like a child throwing a tantrum when he displayed both project data showing E-V13 dominates.

    If you were referring specifically to E-V13 percentages in Macedonia, I tried responding nicely that I'm contributing to this effort to test more there, and you responded with a chip on your shoulder like who you think you are.

    Then you said you don't take projects serious that don't have high level admins that are E-V13 as if a person's personal haplogroup effects their character and judgement.

    It seems these are all just your personal problems and issues because you haven't provided any evidence and merely added insult to injury.

  23. #1273
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    602

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    The main point of discussion is not R1a, i actually never even discussed before. This guy just jumped in to reverse my objections.

  24. #1274
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    602

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I asked you 3 times for evidence about E-V13 manipulation of data and you never provided it. You also called ArchetypeOne an idiot like a child throwing a tantrum when he displayed both project data showing E-V13 dominates.
    If you were referring specifically to E-V13 percentages in Macedonia, I tried responding nicely that I'm contributing to this effort to test more there, and you responded with a chip on your shoulder like who you think you are.
    Then you said you don't take projects serious that don't have high level admins that are E-V13 as if a person's personal haplogroup effects their character and judgement.
    It seems these are all just your personal problems and issues because you haven't provided any evidence and merely added insult to injury.
    I never called any of you any name before you insulted first, that's a fact and everyone can browse the discussion and check the posts.

    A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...72497319301097

    Here you have it, in your precious project it was 15-17%. That's 17-20% less than official studies, and i am sure your trend will continue. And we don't like the fact we should depend on you for sampling. That's clear enough. I have absolutely nothing against you, it's a matter of integrity. Projects like this should depend on people with academic background.

  25. #1275
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    934

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133361
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I never called any of you any name before you insulted first, that's a fact and everyone can browse the discussion and check the posts.

    Here you have it, in your precious project it was 15-17%. That's 17-20% less than official studies, and i am sure your trend will continue. And we don't like the fact we should depend on you for sampling. That's clear enough. I have absolutely nothing against you, it's a matter of integrity. Projects like this should not depend on people with academic background.
    No you insulted us first. You attacked people's intelligence and accuse them of issuing personal attacks while telling me 2 or 3 times today that I have mental issues. Then when Archetype0ne told you to take your pills you cry wolf. Don't dish it out if you can't take it back.
    You insulted me from your very first response. So don't play the victim.

    Any way, as I responded to you before, the sample database for Albanians in Macedonia is still small and I am contributing to this effort in time.

    Again how can you expect percentages to remain consistent between 2 different sample groups?

    Are you so blinded to think they can possibly know what the result of the collected sample will be?

    I don't even think the study says where those samples were gathered from. How do you know they didn't only target a few villages?

    And if 100 were spread so thin all over, how can you treat 1 or 2 samples a village as indicative of the overall geographic concentration of a specific haplogroup?

    What happens if Macedonia reaches 200 samples in the project, with specific regionalizationon(twice as much as the study you're quoting) and the E-V13 remains low?
    Are you going to claim that's a lie too?

    Where is it cemented in stone that E-V13 will consistently remain 35%? Especially when you're quiting small sample groups?

    As an example, there's 2 separe studies on Albanians listing R1a as being somewhere around 4.5% and as high as 11% in one sample group. Both separate peer reviewed papers.

    So you don't think this sampling bias phenomenon can occur with E-V13?

    R1a was listed as much as 12.5% in Albanians of Macedonia in one small sample group and as low as 1.5% in another for the same population. Obviously both are not realistic likely., and due to some sampling bias.

    So, I fail to see how you expect peer review to always be more accurate in this case when findings in separate papers contradict each other.

    You can't pick and choose when it serves your fancy.

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