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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #1276
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    No you insulted us first. You attacked people's intelligence and accuse them of issuing personal attacks while telling me 2 or 3 times today that I have mental issues. Then when Archetype0ne told you to take your pills you cry wolf. Don't dish it out if you can't take it back.
    You insulted me from your very first response. So don't play the victim.
    Any way, as I responded to you before, the sample database for Albanians in Macedonia is still small and I am contributing to this effort in time.
    Again how can you expect percentages to remain consistent between 2 different sample groups?
    Are you so blinded to think they can possibly know what the result of the collected sample will be? I don't even think the study says where those samples were gathered from. How do you know they didn't only target a few villages?
    And if 100 were spread so thin all over, how can you treat 1 or 2 samples a village as indicative of the overall geographic concentration of a specific haplogroup?
    What happens if Macedonia reaches 200 samples in the project, with specific regionalizationon(twice as much as the study you're quoting) and the E-V13 remains low?
    Are you going to claim that's a lie too?
    Where is it cemented in stone that E-V13 will consistently remain 35%? Especially when you're quiting small sample groups?
    As an example, there's 2 separe studies on Albanians listing R1a as being somewhere around 4.5% and as high as 14% in one sample group. Both separate peer reviewed papers.
    So you don't think this sampling bias phenomenon can occur with E-V13?
    R1a was listed as much as 14% in Albanians of Macedonia in one small sample group and as low as 2% in another. Obviously both are not realistic likely.
    So, I fail to see how you expect peer review to always be more accurate in this case. You can't pick and choose when it serves your fancy.
    This is my first reply to you: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post625126

    Stop being a drama queen. I think i am fair enough when i say i don't trust you guys and like me (other E-V13) will not trust these projects, unless they are done by peer reviewed papers by academics. Even if it is 1%, we know it's truth.

  2. #1277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    This is my first reply to you: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post625126
    Stop being a drama queen. I think i am fair enough when i say i don't trust you guys and like me (other E-V13) will not trust these projects, unless they are done by peer reviewed papers by academics. Even if it is 1%, we know it's truth.
    Insulting again.
    You're the drama queen buddy. Instead of engaging with a moniker of respect you deflect the logical points people are making as if there's some mass conspiracy against E-V13 people. And you say I have issues?
    Did you bother reading the example I cited of 2 separate peer review papers contradicting eachother on haplogroup frequencies?
    One peer review study finds Albanians of Macedonia habe as much as 12.5% R1a. Another peer review finds in a similar sample size of Albanians in Macedonia as low as 1.5% R1a.

    How do you explain that discrepancy wise guy?

    What will you start saying when another peer review study reports a lower percentage of E-V13?

    Will you then pick and choose what makes you happy?

    Or at least comprehend these studies are not gospel truth and also subject to the same sample bias you accused both projects of?

    Grow up.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I'm asking for proof if your criticism in the manipulation of E-V13 in the project. I could believe it for Gjenetika, I don't believe Rrenjet would do that though.
    Not very nice of you to say that about Gjenetika project, without any evidence, seemingly just because you may have had disagreement/argument with an admin. And let's not forget that it was the voluntary work of Gjenetika that helped and guided you throughout when you first tested.

    While we're at it, maybe there should be questions about a project ("Rrenjet") that intentionally hides Albanian samples and removes their flags all over the YFull tree. A quick example I could find:



    ^ The tree in November 2019 before they decided to split from Gjenetika. These two IDs are either hidden or removed flags as of now: https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z38300/
    Last edited by Trojet; 31-05-21 at 21:39.

  4. #1279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Insulting again.
    You're the drama queen buddy. Instead of engaging with a moniker of respect you deflect the logical points people are making as if there's some mass conspiracy against E-V13 people. And you say I have issues?
    Did you bother reading the example I cited of 2 separate peer review papers contradicting eachother on haplogroup frequencies?
    One peer review study finds Albanians of Macedonia habe as much as 12.5% R1a. Another peer review finds in a similar sample size of Albanians in Macedonia as low as 1.5% R1a.
    How do you explain that discrepancy wise guy?
    What will you start saying when another peer review study reports a lower percentage of E-V13?
    Will you then pick and choose what makes you happy?
    Or at least comprehend these studies are not gospel truth and also subject to the same sample bias you accused both projects of?
    Grow up.
    Don't bring R1a here, i don't really care much. I brought valid points and stick to it.

    In two separate DNA studies the level of E-V13 was similar to the ~35% which makes the most sense. Any involvement on testing our population from your side is not welcomed, especially not monitored by a committee participants both internal and external. You see? At least i am a fair guy. This is all i ask.

  5. #1280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Not very nice of you to say that about Gjenetika project, without any evidence, seemingly just because you may have had disagreement/argument with an admin. And let's not forget that it was the voluntary work of Gjenetika that helped and guided you when you first tested.
    While we're at it, maybe there should be doubts about a project ("Rrenjet") that intentionally hides the samples of Albanians all over the YFull tree (or removes their flags). A quick example I could find:

    The tree in November 2019. These two IDs are nowhere to be found as of now: https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z38300/
    Simple explanation: they didn't pay for the upload.

    This happened with a couple other Albanians in L1029. They were added to the tree. They didn't pay, so they were removed. With exception of 1 that I paid for to keep on the tree. Their result is still publicly available in the project for those not on the tree.

    On your other point, you failed to come to any resolution when I called you for his lies. You also didnt popular correcting him when he was he was saying he paid kits I PAID FOR, in an attempt to take kits back from Rrenjet you deemed "yours". And you knew full well.

    I already made myself clear why all trust was lost lost tour project. Only a moron would have continued donating to the project when it's administration belittle its contributing members and allow people who openly lie to get away with such nonsense.

    And it was brought to your attention numerous times about this admins antics. And you couldn't care less.

  6. #1281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Simple explanation: they didn't pay for the upload.
    This is 100% false. Besides, YFull will not remove flags of samples like for example YF15992 (which you can see is missing it as of now). Yes, they can remove/hide the sample if not paid, but only the kit manager can add or remove flags


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Don't bring R1a here, i don't really care much. I brought valid points and stick to it.

    In two separate DNA studies the level of E-V13 was similar to the ~35% which makes the most sense. Any involvement on testing our population from your side is not welcomed, especially not monitored by a committee participants both internal and external. You see? At least i am a fair guy. This is all i ask.

    I can bring up R1a here all I want where it concerns Albanians. You have no authority in this forum. Nor do you have any authority to decide what lines are or aren't Albanian. Albanian origins concern more than just 1-3 haplogroups depending on stage of history and development.

    Buddy, nothing you say or do will stop me or the projects efforts. Both projects for that matter. Even if I don't trust Gjenetika. There's literally nothing someone like you can say or do to stop their efforts.

    All you can do is just whine and moan and hurl insults when someone doesn't agree with you.

    Simple fact is 100 samples means nothing against 1100-1500 samples between both projects. Nothing you say or do will change what the data shows.

    You cherry pick papers to support some elite dominance of E-V13 any and everywhere whilst accusing others of having an agenda and cherry picking.

    I can't wait for more in depth studies and peer reviewed papers to start contradicting you so you have no choice but to accept the reality that numbers and frequencies do change depending on sample size, sampling bias and a number of other factors your too blind to comprehend.

  8. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    This is 100% false. Besides, YFull wound not remove flags of samples like for example YF15992. Yes, they can remove/hide the sample if not paid, but only the kit manager can add or remove flags
    Maybe it was the request I'd the tester?

    Or maybe because there's no flag for Kosova thet just leave it out?

    Either way you knowingly ignorned/supported a liar who belittled a contributing member. I can't really believe anything you say at this point I'm afraid.

  9. #1284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I can bring up R1a here all I want where it concerns Albanians. You have no authority in this forum. Nor do you have any authority to decide what lines are or aren't Albanian. Albanian origins concern more than just 1-3 haplogroups depending on stage of history and development.

    Buddy, nothing you say or do will stop me or the projects efforts. Both projects for that matter. Even if I don't trust Gjenetika. There's literally nothing someone like you can say or do to stop their efforts.

    All you can do is just whine and moan and hurl insults when someone doesn't agree with you.

    Simple fact is 100 samples means nothing against 1100-1500 samples between both projects. Nothing you say or do will change what the data shows.

    You cherry pick papers to support some elite dominance of E-V13 any and everywhere whilst accusing others of having an agenda and cherry picking.

    I can't wait for more in depth studies and peer reviewed papers to start contradicting you so you have no choice but to accept the reality that numbers and frequencies do change depending on sample size, sampling bias and a number of other factors your too blind to comprehend.
    Thanks for showing me what you guys are up to. :)

    You can try, but then again you will fail.

  10. #1285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Thanks for showing me what you guys are up to. :)

    You can try, but then again you will fail.
    Keep deflecting and avoiding the reality. You can keep crying like a child and contribute nothing but ridicule. Put your money where you mouth is or zip it.

  11. #1286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Keep deflecting and avoiding the reality. You can keep crying like a child and contribute nothing but ridicule. Put your money where you mouth is or zip it.
    You were butthurt because of your Y-DNA and now you want in a way a revenge. That's why you sneaked on that project so you can be a factor.

  12. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You were butthurt because of your Y-DNA and now you want in a way a revenge. That's why you sneaked on that project so you can be a factor.
    What in God's good name are you even babbling about?

    I'm not butthurt. Im proud of who I am you gomar.

    It's obvious you're the butthurt child crying about percentage frequency of their own haplogroup and assuming there's some grand conspiracy against E-V13 Albanians.

    You're absolutely a joke. And you have exposed you're the same brainless drivel as Fustan and these other clowns for trying to attack people on their haplogroup. Literal cancer lol.

    I'm not even a factor nor assume to be. I'm not even an admin nor care to be. Just a person interested in contributing my time and money to specific avenues where it concerns the research of our people.

    You could do the same if you weren't too busy wasting your time with conspiracies and telling people what to do with their money as if you have any say in the matter.

    I can tell you wish one of the projects made you a "E-V13 admin", hence your little crusade.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I sincerely do not understand such animosity against I2a-Din and R1a-M417 Albanians, our ancestors (yes, i also belong to this category !!) have been incorporated from more than 1000 years into the Albanophone milieu!! Our forefathers took part at the Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081), Siege of Svetigrad (1448) side by side with Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg, Morea revolt of 1453–1454, Albanian Revolt of 1843–1844 etc etc as Albanians ...
    So please a little bit more comprehension and respect.
    Thanks

  14. #1289
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    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    I sincerely do not understand such animosity against I2a-Din and R1a-M417 Albanians, our ancestors (yes, i also belong to this category !!) have been incorporated from more than 1000 years into the Albanophone milieu!! Our forefathers took part at the Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081), Siege of Svetigrad (1448) side by side with Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg, Morea revolt of 1453–1454, Albanian Revolt of 1843–1844 etc etc as Albanians ...
    So please a little bit more comprehension and respect.
    Thanks
    No one mentioned your I2a-Din and R1a-M417 Albanian ancestors or insulted them. It was a scapegoat put into the table to cover up some other valid objections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    The problem with peer reviewed sources is that(aside from the Macedonia study which was decent), most studies are interested in haplotype diversity, some for medical reasons, some to build a database for courts or other institutions, etc.

    Very rarely do they attempt to understand ancestry of a people.

    Another big problem is these sample sizes are literally meaningless when compared to a countries entire population size. 50-100 people.
    More often than not, you never know where they specifically come from. There's almost always a broad generalization with no breakdown. The most detailed they have gotten was to say Gheg or Tosk which tells you nothing on a geographical distribution of a particular lineage.

    I'm sorry, that will never compare to 1100-1500 samples that are higher resolution than average and actually publicly provide the villages people are from with detailed distribution/break down.

    The problems with these personal efforts have been laid out. And they can be rectified if lazy project members actually pulled their weight to contribute, or find wealthy sponsors they may network with, instead of telling others what to do with their money. Or even expecting admins to tell others what to do with their money. By that token, there wouldn't be as many tested samples as we now have.

    The project has also encouraged those able to do WGS to get tested. Because a basic Y-DNA test means little without specificity.

    I can't speak for others, but for myself. My donations while targeting specific geographic regions has still spread out among the villages. No one bothered testing Golloborde before I did. Coupled with another members contribution we got quite a bit of a sample size for a small region. I have also sponsored kits in Kruje/Durres and Prizren which were all undersampled. Now I'm targeting West Macedonia in the next batch I can supply. I even avoid duplicates and relatives.

    And there's really no excuse why others can't contribute. I fall into lower middle class bracket financially. If I can sponsor large batches of test slowly over time, there's no reason for those complaining to not be able to do the same if they really cared at all.
    This is from 2012, "Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database" .

    Statistical analysis of the data from previously performedgenetic analyses collected during routine forensic work bythe Forensic Science Centre ‘‘Ivan Vucetic´’’ was performedin this study. Based on geographical and historical information we divided Croatia into five regions: eastern, western, southern, northern and central (Fig. 1). A total of 1,100 samples
    http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con...ports-2012.pdf

    I think this is ok for Croatian Y DNA statistics.

  16. #1291
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    This is from 2012, "Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database" .
    http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con...ports-2012.pdf
    I think this is ok for Croatian Y DNA statistics.
    I'm talking Albanian sample sizes. The one you quoted for Croatians is huge. Would love to see such for Albanians that are peer reviewed.

    The sad fact is most studies for Albanian sample sizes are rarely over 100. 1000-2000 at least should be the standard for these sort of peer reviewed studies.

    That recent Turkish study pending release was also real big. Not necessarily just by sample size but it was 700-800 whole genome sequenced. Many of which have been added to yfull with more on the way.

    Such an effort for Albania or other individual Balkan studies would be huge. Especially whole genome that can be added to yfull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I'm talking Albanian sample sizes. The one you quoted for Croatians is huge. Would love to see such for Albanians that are peer reviewed.
    The sad fact is most studies for Albanian sample sizes are rarely over 100. 1000-2000 at least should be the standard for these sort of peer reviewed studies.
    That recent Turkish study pending release was also real big. Not necessarily just by sample size but it was 700-800 whole genome sequenced. Many of which have been added to yfull with more on the way.
    Such an effort for Albania or other individual Balkan studies would be huge. Especially whole genome that can be added to yfull.
    I don't know why this is so in other countries (small samples). Otherwise my wet dreams are 1100 samples for Croatians with Big Y. After that, I could die with a smile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    I sincerely do not understand such animosity against I2a-Din and R1a-M417 Albanians, our ancestors (yes, i also belong to this category !!) have been incorporated from more than 1000 years into the Albanophone milieu!! Our forefathers took part at the Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081), Siege of Svetigrad (1448) side by side with Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg, Morea revolt of 1453–1454, Albanian Revolt of 1843–1844 etc etc as Albanians ...
    So please a little bit more comprehension and respect.
    Thanks
    Not sure which way this post was directed to, but I would agree with this 100%. And as an admin of Albanian Bloodlines - Gjenetika, I've personally made it clear to Dibran, or any other Albanian with I2a-Din or R1a-M417, that they are just as "Albanian" as anyone else, regardless of their Y-DNA haplogroup. After all, if we test enough of our ancestral lines, there is a high likelihood that all of us will run into one of these haplogroups, but of course for Y-DNA (direct paternal) only one can show up.
    Last edited by Trojet; 01-06-21 at 01:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Not sure which way this post was directed to, but I would agree with this 100%. And as an admin of Albanian Bloodlines - Gjenetika, I've personally made it clear to Dibran, or any other Albanian with I2a-Din or R1a-M417, that they are just as "Albanian" as anyone else, regardless of their Y-DNA haplogroup. After all, if we test enough of our ancestral lines, there is a high likelihood that all of us will run into one of these haplogroups, but of course for Y-DNA (direct paternal) only one can show up.
    The problem is that genetics is viewed from today's perspective and then interpreted. Surely there are also psychological problems in the Balkans because no one would like to be someone else ie of a different origin.

    Among Serbian forum members, E1b is an old Balkan haplotype not Albanian, Macedonian, Greek etc. There is probably fear if it is said Albanian and they live a few meters from Albania and assimilation has certainly taken place, just as Slavic haplotypes entered the Albanian population. Only in Albania it is probably different because Slavs probably came to these areas in the first Slavic waves also toward the area of Greece.

    Bosnian Serb population has E1b as second haplotype in the population and probably a good portion of the same coming from direction where there is a lot of it (southeastern Europe). The fact that some of these E1b people in Bosnia have relatives in Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria etc. does not mean that someone is less Serb, Croat, etc. It just means that these people are connected by male line and possibly proves migration ie place from which their ancestors coming to Bosnia. It's probably a shock to some but a good part of these ancestors assimilated in medieval Serbia so it's possible and older bond or younger which has to do with the Turkish period.

    Unfortunately or fortunately this is genetics and there is no exit strategy, we must respect genetic results. The Hungarians are mostly or largely Ydna Slavs no matter how hard it was for them. Or when we say that good part of Slavic genetics of Yugoslavia possible has source in the White Croatia.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    what is good in rrenjet project ( in my view opinion)
    is that it reach places which are more rural rather than urban like
    and as i said before it gives a chance to find rare linages in albanians
    for example: the e1a cluster which occure in diber area and even in golloborda minority





    Golloborda Fshatra shqipfolës Fshatra dygjuhësh
    N=33 N=15 N=18
    J2b-L283 27.3 13.3 38.9
    R1a-M417 21.2 26.7 16.7
    E-V13 18.2 33.3 5.6
    I2a-Y3120 9.1 16.7
    R2b-M269 6.1 11.2
    J2a-M410 6.1 6.7 5.6
    I2a-M223 3 6.7
    I2a-CTS595 3 6.7
    E-M123 3 5.6
    E-M132 3 6.7


    so alban effort is good
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe
    phenotype
    :
    gracile- med

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I see that hell has broken loose :)
    Despite any opinion I might have about other Albanian projects I don't know any Albanian projects that are cherry picking results with the aim of changing/manipulating % of haplogroups. So these accusations are baseless regardless of direction that they are aimed. I can say this with 100% certainty about Rrenjet Project but again I don't have any knowledge that any one else is trying to manipulate %.

    Of course it might be better if more Albanians from Macedonia would test so that we can have a greater sample. The larger sample, plus geographically well spread would provide a better picture. Until than we have to work with what we have.

    lets hope we move the discussion to more productive themes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    I see that hell has broken loose :)
    Despite any opinion I might have about other Albanian projects I don't know any Albanian projects that are cherry picking results with the aim of changing/manipulating % of haplogroups. So these accusations are baseless regardless of direction that they are aimed. I can say this with 100% certainty about Rrenjet Project but again I don't have any knowledge that any one else is trying to manipulate %.

    Of course it might be better if more Albanians from Macedonia would test so that we can have a greater sample. The larger sample, plus geographically well spread would provide a better picture. Until than we have to work with what we have.

    lets hope we move the discussion to more productive themes.
    I guess this passes by the rule of word "I guarantee you". Just as General Admiral Aladdin, you collect, you make the statistics, you peer reviewed and approve it, everything by yourself.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I guess this passes by the rule of word "I guarantee you". Just as General Admiral Aladdin, you collect, you make the statistics, you peer reviewed and approve it, everything by yourself.
    You are creating a issue where there is none.
    Based on these volunteers projects Albanians can trace their family histories, this is a huge achievement, done with private money. So we have to congratulate all the people involved.

    Based on personal experience, In every village tested only one person per each tribe/fis/fare has been tested. You can try this yourself choose a village in North Macedonia and test it. No one is claiming that these projects are well crafted academic samples.

    Instead of complaining, you can help increasing the number of Albanian tested in Macedonia.

    All the best


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  24. #1299
    Regular Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-02-21
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/Z631
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have come to understand the potential bias and political incentives behind much of the haplogroup and genetic arguing that goes on in these types of forums. This of course happens very commonly between Balkan nations like Serbia and Albania for obvious political reasons.

    However, I don't understand what is going on here with Albanians having distrust between their haplogroups?

    Can someone explain why Hawk thinks other Albanians would be biased and trying to over inflate non E-V13 haplogroups?

    What would the incentive be? Or am I misunderstanding the argument entirely?

  25. #1300
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    11-06-18
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    948

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    I have come to understand the potential bias and political incentives behind much of the haplogroup and genetic arguing that goes on in these types of forums. This of course happens very commonly between Balkan nations like Serbia and Albania for obvious political reasons.

    However, I don't understand what is going on here with Albanians having distrust between their haplogroups?

    Can someone explain why Hawk thinks other Albanians would be biased and trying to over inflate non E-V13 haplogroups?

    What would the incentive be? Or am I misunderstanding the argument entirely?
    When you get an answer let me know ... Since I tried asking personally twice and no response. Like I'm trying to understand the endgame if what he is saying were to be true, and I can't think of any outcome.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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